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Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 43

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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable.
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
March 07 2011 12:43 GMT
#841
People are confusing things here imo. It's not a storm nerf, it's not even a templar nerf by itself. The nerfed thing is the ability to instawarpstorm, and THAT was imbalanced.
Look any TvP right now, as soon as amulet is done, the P wins 90% of the time.
Because amulet means no more drop, no more harass, no more nothing. Storm by itself is powerful, but not too powerful. But the ability to 5 seconds storm any place in the map is too powerful.


Well, I like this change, it's really needed.
chickenhawk
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal339 Posts
March 07 2011 13:53 GMT
#842
Look any TvP right now, as soon as amulet is done, the P wins 90% of the time.


I like to see where you got does numbers.. please tell me.

But the ability to 5 seconds storm any place in the map is too powerful.


5 seconds? Where do you guys get this numbers?!!! If a protos needs to used proxy pylons to check for drops, why can't a terran check the back of a base to see if there is any proxy pylons?
chyusu
Profile Joined March 2011
1 Post
March 07 2011 14:00 GMT
#843
Good job, even harder to beat the bioball with ghosts and vikings when the storm has the range of a zergling testicle and EMP has the range of 7. Solo feedbacking the ghosts before they get the first EMP casted is quite a challenge too.

But yo i herd u liek bioballs so we nerf toss so u can bioball even moar.

User was banned for this post.
derpzzz
Profile Joined March 2011
20 Posts
March 07 2011 14:01 GMT
#844
protoss players who say amulet is ok at current state are delusional or completly blind, im ok with making upgrade the same as it was in bw
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 14:09:50
March 07 2011 14:03 GMT
#845
http://sc2casts.com/cast1614-MaNa-vs-Naama-Best-of-5-DreamHack-Finals

watch those games and say they Amulet is overpowered, they are not if Terrans learns to use Ghosts efficiently...
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
March 07 2011 14:06 GMT
#846
On March 07 2011 22:53 chickenhawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
Look any TvP right now, as soon as amulet is done, the P wins 90% of the time.


I like to see where you got does numbers.. please tell me.

Show nested quote +
But the ability to 5 seconds storm any place in the map is too powerful.


5 seconds? Where do you guys get this numbers?!!! If a protos needs to used proxy pylons to check for drops, why can't a terran check the back of a base to see if there is any proxy pylons?


warp in time for HT is 5 seconds, with KA that's a storm 5 seconds after paying for a HT.

There are 2 drop issues. HT's being dropped/warped in to opponent base and storming the resource line AND HT's being warped as defense vs drops. Ultimately, both can still be used just differently. HT's will need to be pre-warped and transported via warp prisim for offensive storms vs workers AND HT's can be warped in defensively to feedback medivacs.
WingEn
Profile Joined February 2011
84 Posts
March 07 2011 14:11 GMT
#847
Terran already has the easy way out in PvT actually. Protoss spend a hell lot of effort and time to go Collosus against bioball. Terran just have to stop pumping Medivacs and change it to Vikings and there's their counter to Protoss' counter. Not even a need to lift off buildings. That's why people go HT tech immediately after Collosus tech. Now their removing the amulet which was one of the only researches that can allow the Protoss to get a win.

I ain't saying that instant-warp-in-to-deny-drops-totally is not overpowered, I do agree that it sucks somehow. But removing the amulet entirely is something that changes things too much. At least nerf it to gaining 15 energy or something. Also, it was one of the only few effective ways the Protoss can harass the Terran. Removed as well. Now I'm seeing Protoss as a 'mass up army then attack for the win' race.
ki11z0ne
Profile Joined January 2011
United States427 Posts
March 07 2011 14:15 GMT
#848
ghosts are a tier-2 unit too when HT are tier-3 PLUS! you have to upgrade storm too and not EPM PLUS!!!!! you take away all toss harassment zerg can drop banglings in you minerals line terrain can drop blue flame hellions, and toss does what? drop 4 zealots? do what the did for SC1 make it go up to 63 after upgrade....HT are OP but this is not the right choice....
SC > halo
Ksyper
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Bulgaria665 Posts
March 07 2011 14:21 GMT
#849
TL;DR
Nerfing HTs is a terrible idea imo, they aren't used enough and if they get nerfed will end up like the mothership or something.
I mean in BW stroms were a lot stronger and yet they still had the amulet.
chickenhawk
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal339 Posts
March 07 2011 14:37 GMT
#850
warp in time for HT is 5 seconds, with KA that's a storm 5 seconds after paying for a HT


Yes because protos gates are never on coldown.. never!! Guess what, have you tried to have a ghost on the medivac?

Ultimately, both can still be used just differently. HT's will need to be pre-warped and transported via warp prisim for offensive storms vs workers AND HT's can be warped in defensively to feedback medivacs.


So feedback is also a problem?
CellTech
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada396 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-07 14:46:07
March 07 2011 14:45 GMT
#851
On March 07 2011 23:21 Ksyper wrote:
TL;DR
Nerfing HTs is a terrible idea imo, they aren't used enough and if they get nerfed will end up like the mothership or something.
I mean in BW stroms were a lot stronger and yet they still had the amulet.


The problem is in BW higher food units (Aka higher tier) went up in food too. So u were hotkeying only 12 units, this made teching up worth it. More food per control group = less hotkeys.

Now Terran hotkey 100 marines/marauders into 8cm x 8cm ball and complain about storm. The problem isnt storm, it's the Terran playstyle, be it blizzards or the players fault.

Basically, don't expect your 1 control group stim and scoot be as effective at 25 minutes when our heavy AOE units are out vs the 8 minute mark where you're freely picking off our gateway units
^ Probably a Troll Post
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
March 07 2011 15:25 GMT
#852
On March 07 2011 23:37 chickenhawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
warp in time for HT is 5 seconds, with KA that's a storm 5 seconds after paying for a HT


Yes because protos gates are never on coldown.. never!! Guess what, have you tried to have a ghost on the medivac?

Show nested quote +
Ultimately, both can still be used just differently. HT's will need to be pre-warped and transported via warp prisim for offensive storms vs workers AND HT's can be warped in defensively to feedback medivacs.


So feedback is also a problem?


The only thing wg cd has to do with it is when you press T and click. The point is, you press T, click and 5s later select your HT and press T again and click. (it's only 150minerals to have an extra WG so you always have 1 off cd - definitely worth the cost of 3 probes imo.)

feedback is the solution to using HT defensively vs drops w/o KA.
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
March 07 2011 15:30 GMT
#853
On March 08 2011 00:25 DusTerr wrote:
feedback is the solution to using HT defensively vs drops w/o KA.


cause medivacs always will have enough energy so a feedback kills them right?
esre
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland109 Posts
March 07 2011 15:35 GMT
#854
On March 02 2011 06:25 a176 wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +

OP, the scope of your analysis is limited. So they take about the same amount of time to construct, but what about the investment and time required to even make the unit in the first place, let alone use its abilities? How does the addition of the unit effect the capability of your army, the size of your army? Its the scope of the ability to obtain this unit and use it, as follows:

Ghost: Supply Depot, Barracks, Ghost Academy, Ghost. 30, 60, 40, 40, 170 seconds. 100, 150, 150/50, 150/150. 550/200 minerals and gas required to get one ghost, complete with EMP.

Templar: Pylon, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, Warpgate Reseach, Twilight Council, Templar Archive, Storm Research, Templar. 25, 65, 50, 140(93), 50, 50, 110(73), 5, 545 seconds (451 with chronoboost). 100, 150, 150, 50/50, 150/100, 150/200, 200/200, 50/150, 1000/700 minerals and gas required to get one templar with storm.

The above is the minimum time required and minimum resources required to obtain 1 of either unit. Please, no silly arguments about "its not that simple" because yes, no idiot would believe the game works like that. The point is, the required time and resources to gain 1 templar with storm minus Khaydarin is ridiculously more expensive and time consuming for a protoss player over a terran's ghost which requires no additional time or resources to upgrade EMP or even Snipe.

Have some of you even considered the fact that the protoss army already requires a massive gas investment as compared to the gas requirement for a terran bio army, the choice army many detractors use in the matchup?

Khaydarin exists for the reason to allow templars to catch up with the progression of the game. Drop harrass, mutalisks, are well defended by a templar warping into his base (a base that will take him a long time to get out of to join the main army) - but remember, a templar becomes virtually useless for the next 2 minutes while it regains energy for another storm. Again, consider the gas investment required for this one attack, which was not spent on the actual army, and an attack that can be dodged as well.

I find it foolish for any player to find any fault in the way templar works or even the advantage of the amulet. Should not the advantage be given to the enemy player through all the time they have to scout and prepare for approaching templars?

Indeed, a macroing player only has themself to blame for allowing a protoss to gain the advantage - an army with significant templar support, without doing anything to hinder their progress. Blizzard has not given the PvT matchup nowhere near the required time to transition into different builds. I even believe the ghost is severely underused in the matchup and I'm sure many abusive strategies involving it are waiting to be discovered.


This post sums up my exact thoughts. As a random player I find it hard to justify going Templar tech over collisis against Terran. Unless I see a reactor on the star-port with tons of vikings I'll be getting collisis. Emp just destroysTemplar , no energy and no shields basically mean your going to lose a 50/150 unit. Sure I can wait 12 seconds and get an archon but the battle will be over and the archon will be picked off. . .
"Personality should be irrelevant. This is a computer game tournament, not a dating show. -Idra"
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
March 07 2011 15:42 GMT
#855
On March 07 2011 23:45 CellTech wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2011 23:21 Ksyper wrote:
TL;DR
Nerfing HTs is a terrible idea imo, they aren't used enough and if they get nerfed will end up like the mothership or something.
I mean in BW stroms were a lot stronger and yet they still had the amulet.


The problem is in BW higher food units (Aka higher tier) went up in food too. So u were hotkeying only 12 units, this made teching up worth it. More food per control group = less hotkeys.

Now Terran hotkey 100 marines/marauders into 8cm x 8cm ball and complain about storm. The problem isnt storm, it's the Terran playstyle, be it blizzards or the players fault.

Basically, don't expect your 1 control group stim and scoot be as effective at 25 minutes when our heavy AOE units are out vs the 8 minute mark where you're freely picking off our gateway units


To be fair, most T don't want storm removed. Protoss armies will still be able to be just as effective in big battles as they were before-just warp in the Templars earlier instead of waiting for Amulet to finish. It will be the reinforcing waves that are weaker than they used to be, along with warp in drops/warp in drop defense.

P.S. To the person you quoted: BW amulet didn't grant instant storm at all. It gave a 12.5 point energy boost, something I think Terrans would be fine with in SC2.
chickenhawk
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal339 Posts
March 07 2011 16:12 GMT
#856
The only thing wg cd has to do with it is when you press T and click. The point is, you press T, click and 5s later select your HT and press T again and click. (it's only 150minerals to have an extra WG so you always have 1 off cd - definitely worth the cost of 3 probes imo.)

feedback is the solution to using HT defensively vs drops w/o KA.


So we are talking about drops right? Because in no way I will be able to do that in a fight against a ball. I will give you an hint, carry a Ghost in the medivac and the HT will be useless. Also if you make a protos do a defensive HT thats already damage since it will only hurt a small number of MMM's.
CellTech
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada396 Posts
March 07 2011 16:25 GMT
#857
Feedbacking a dropship (aside from negating heals) will be evermore useless once once T start predraining a bit of energy so feedback doesnt 1 shot medivacs. This pretty much makes an idle Templar useless sitting in the Protoss base.
^ Probably a Troll Post
Polust
Profile Joined November 2009
Costa Rica31 Posts
March 07 2011 16:34 GMT
#858
It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade.
And the racks continue with the produccion

It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade.
and just wait for the LI to drop like 6 more larvae to continue the produccion

It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade.
the toss has to wait like 45 secs to make 1 more round of produccion...


so i belive remove KA it's not the solucion, balancing the casters wont balance the game.
aaronlolol
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
134 Posts
March 07 2011 16:37 GMT
#859
Ever seen someone warp in 2 HTs and kill an entire mineral line where they have high ground? I think that is the reason Amulet is being taken out. You could literally warp in 2 HTs and WIPE an entire mineral line in about 5 seconds. For instance, Pylon in the back passage ways on Xel-Naga=Free mineral line wipe, etc.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
March 07 2011 16:38 GMT
#860
On March 08 2011 01:34 Polust wrote:
It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade.
And the racks continue with the produccion

It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade.
and just wait for the LI to drop like 6 more larvae to continue the produccion

It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade.
the toss has to wait like 45 secs to make 1 more round of produccion...


so i belive remove KA it's not the solucion, balancing the casters wont balance the game.


Umm, both the Terran and the Protoss have to wait to produce another round of production, you realize, right?
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