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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 05 2011 09:40 TooL wrote:
they should balance the game in a way that makes gateways and warp gates more of a dynamic decision.
problem with that is build times are different for warp gates and gateways, and having all your gate's in regular gateway mode gives you not only a positional disadvantage cause protoss units are so slow, but a macro disadvantage since you will be producing units slower. A major overhaul would have to be made that would throw all the protoss players back into the stoneage as far as strategy goes and it would kill sc2.
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On March 05 2011 09:49 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 07:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 05 2011 07:51 Vei wrote:
yo guys
to balance this out, shouldn't templars spawn with 25 energy, then keep khydarin in to make them spawn with 50? as it currently stands, the OP's math suggests that WITHOUT an energy upgrade, templars are as quick-to-get-energy as an infestor.
how is that fair? no i'm not trolling, the only saving grace is that of course all races aren't created equal, but... yeah You are right, OFC, but that seemed little too harsh to me  yah lets make a unit that takes 45 seconds to build, costs 50/150 and only puts out a feedback. Let alone 500/550 to research just to make the unit....that makes perfect sense......................
![[image loading]](http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7549/samjackson.gif)
It takes 5 seconds to build HT, if you are new to thread, please read at least OP before you post.
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My only real beef with PvT is the colossus.. to be honest. theres nothing you can do vs a colossus pheonix combo.. and I mean litterally nothing.
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well by that logic, every gateway unit is build in 5 seconds indepentend of individual cooldown...stating such it doesn't make it truth.
again ur assumption fails to consider that protoss like both other races is constantly building units, so warpgates obviously are occupied by cooldown.
having too many idle Warpgates (while not having the ressources to support them, which you imply) is a sign of a bad player.
So if we take a good player who is on spot with his warpins you argument fails, cause then you just can't disregard the cooldown at all...
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On March 05 2011 10:36 freetgy wrote:
well by that logic, every gateway unit is build in 5 seconds indepentend of individual cooldown...stating such it doesn't make it truth.
again ur assumption fails to consider that protoss like both other races is constantly building units, so warpgates obviously have to be occupied.
having to many Warpgates (while not having the ressources to support them) is a sign of a bad player.
So if we take a good player who is on spot with his warpins you argument fails, cause then you just can't disregard the cooldown at all...
Oh my god seriously?
I thought this was over already... I have convinced like everyone in first ~10 pages of this thread, for last 20 pages nobody come back with this stupid argument and now again? Really just read all posts till 10 page, or just OP carefully, and you will see that no matter if warpgate is occupied or not build time of all warpgate units is always 5 seconds.
This thread should have been locked 25 pages before now, nothing new is here and only spammers not bothering to read anything stayed here anyway.
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I think in a way Blizzard over reacted in this aspect, I think they could've made some small twitches, and it would've been just fine...
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On March 05 2011 09:18 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field. Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems. Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas. Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with.
Hey, I'd love if they removed the Colossus, and put the Reaver back in. As far as enabling interesting gameplay goes, Reaver beats Colossus hands down.
Well, to be exact, you don't have to remove them per se, but there needs to be some way to limit their offensive functionality. In principle, Warpgates are supposed to cover for the premiere Protoss weakness - mobility. However, offensive mobility (the ability to reinforce attacks fast) is a very dangerous thing, because it removes the defender's advantage, which is a necessary component of a good rts (in my opinion at least). Various changes to SC2 relative to BW have already made the defender's advantage weaker, and having Warpgates active at ~6.00 game time really doesn't help.
This is why the basic Gateway units are so lacklustre compared to the other races' core units, why the dark shrine is so expensive and builds so slowly, and why KA will probably be removed. Colossi aren't going to be nerfed, because you actually have to build those at a Robo, and then have to walk all the way across the map to reinforce your push.
So, if not outright remove Warpgates, perhaps limit them to warping stuff in to a special power field around a Nexus or a Warp Prism? That way, you could still use Warp-ins to defend bases from harassment and small pushes, while outright removing warpgate all-ins and other shenanigans. Then maybe we could have cost-effective Gateway units, DTs from the Templar Archive, and Khaydarin Amulet in some form.
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On March 05 2011 10:36 freetgy wrote:
well by that logic, every gateway unit is build in 5 seconds indepentend of individual cooldown...stating such it doesn't make it truth.
again ur assumption fails to consider that protoss like both other races is constantly building units, so warpgates obviously have to be occupied.
having to many Warpgates (while not having the ressources to support them) is a sign of a bad player.
So if we take a good player who is on spot with his warpins you argument fails, cause then you just can't disregard the cooldown at all...
everything depends upon how you define "time to build" when discussing warpgates
(quick note: zerg only build army when said zerg is detecting an incoming attack or is saturated on all bases and don't feel like taking another one, aka non-constant army-buildup, I should know, I play zerg)
if you define "time to build" as "time of the warpgate dedicated to the unit", then yes, you are right, those gateway unit's "time to build" is equal to "gatewayunit buildtime" - 10 seconds.
however, if you define "time to build" as "time passed between you ordering to build the unit and actually getting the unit", then the buildtime is 5 seconds for all gateway units.
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On March 05 2011 10:52 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 10:36 freetgy wrote:
well by that logic, every gateway unit is build in 5 seconds indepentend of individual cooldown...stating such it doesn't make it truth.
again ur assumption fails to consider that protoss like both other races is constantly building units, so warpgates obviously have to be occupied.
having to many Warpgates (while not having the ressources to support them) is a sign of a bad player.
So if we take a good player who is on spot with his warpins you argument fails, cause then you just can't disregard the cooldown at all... everything depends upon how you define "time to build" when discussing warpgates (quick note: zerg only build army when said zerg is detecting an incoming attack or is saturated on all bases and don't feel like taking another one, aka non-constant army-buildup, I should know, I play zerg) if you define "time to build" as "time of the warpgate dedicated to the unit", then yes, you are right, those gateway unit's "time to build" is equal to "gatewayunit buildtime" - 10 seconds. however, if you define "time to build" as "time passed between you ordering to build the unit and actually getting the unit", then the buildtime is 5 seconds for all gateway units.
Thanks for help, Ill just add few things if there are more spammers, hoping they will read at least last page or something:
Its better to differentiate between production rate and production time.
For example "time of the warpgate dedicated to the unit" applied to hatchery would mean that ultralisk build time would be ideally 6 seconds... So this can not be used.
But every production in game can be described using production time and production rate. As that stands - and it is by far most accurate - every warpgate unit has build time of 5 seconds, and specific production rate. Same model, with general validity - thus perfect - can be used to perfectly describe both zerg and terran production.
EDIT: Now please lock this so at least last post in this thread makes any sense, its not like there is anything constructive going on, and I dont want to waste my 100th here
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Your definition of "spammers" is flawed. Stop diregarding everything by labeling it as "spam". It definitely is not. Maybe all not posts are amazing, but in the end things will come down to an opinion. Besides: until the changes are well tested, balance work IS theorycrafting
Hell, your whole thread rests on an opinion (I won't argue about time: your are right about production time / production rate): the ghost-infestor-high templar spellcaster trio should be balanced according to time it takes to use their main spell. By looking at it from this angle, you are definitely right.
However, this rests on the assumption that there must be balance between these three units. This is something I simply cannot agree with. It is fine to isolate one thing in a system. However, if you're balancing according to time, then you're doing just that: balancing times. That alone won't mean the unit is balanced. I'll admit that looking at cold hard numbers isn't a bad idea, but reaching balance while keeping diversity need subjectivity. Afterall, perfect balance is easy: remove two races from the game and have each maps be perfectly symetrical. Voila, balance (at the cost of diversity).
tl;dr your time related stuff is correct, but casters should have that kind of balance to begin with.
EDIT: and "I want to have the last word", seriously?
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 10:45 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 10:36 freetgy wrote:
well by that logic, every gateway unit is build in 5 seconds indepentend of individual cooldown...stating such it doesn't make it truth.
again ur assumption fails to consider that protoss like both other races is constantly building units, so warpgates obviously have to be occupied.
having to many Warpgates (while not having the ressources to support them) is a sign of a bad player.
So if we take a good player who is on spot with his warpins you argument fails, cause then you just can't disregard the cooldown at all... Oh my god seriously? I thought this was over already... I have convinced like everyone in first ~10 pages of this thread, for last 20 pages nobody come back with this stupid argument and now again? Really just read all posts till 10 page, or just OP carefully, and you will see that no matter if warpgate is occupied or not build time of all warpgate units is always 5 seconds. This thread should have been locked 25 pages before now, nothing new is here and only spammers not bothering to read anything stayed here anyway.
I read all your posts, and I don't think you convinced anyone who didn't already want the amulet removed. You argument is factually incorrect AND logically fallible, it's neither valid nor sound, and you conveniently ignored other important factors in your argument.
The three units do not come into play at the same time during the game, they do not have the same function, nor do they have the same abilities. The only thing all 3 units have in common is that they have energy, and they have buttons you can push to make fun things happen. That's it.
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On March 05 2011 09:52 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:40 TooL wrote:
they should balance the game in a way that makes gateways and warp gates more of a dynamic decision. problem with that is build times are different for warp gates and gateways, and having all your gate's in regular gateway mode gives you not only a positional disadvantage cause protoss units are so slow, but a macro disadvantage since you will be producing units slower. A major overhaul would have to be made that would throw all the protoss players back into the stoneage as far as strategy goes and it would kill sc2.
that is extremely over dramatic.
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Suggestion:
Why not make it so that when KA is researched, only templar that are created out of gateways benefit from the upgrade while warped-in templars start with 50?
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OP, please take into consideration the movement speed of the caster units. Obviously HT's are slow and they cannot cloak/burrow move. If you truely want balance between caster units HT's should have either one of the abilities. As they do not have those abilities, the warp in energy is almost required.
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On March 05 2011 11:28 Aerakin wrote:
Your definition of "spammers" is flawed. Stop diregarding everything by labeling it as "spam". It definitely is not. Maybe all not posts are amazing, but in the end things will come down to an opinion. Besides: until the changes are well tested, balance work IS theorycrafting
Hell, your whole thread rests on an opinion (I won't argue about time: your are right about production time / production rate): the ghost-infestor-high templar spellcaster trio should be balanced according to time it takes to use their main spell. By looking at it from this angle, you are definitely right.
However, this rests on the assumption that there must be balance between these three units. This is something I simply cannot agree with. It is fine to isolate one thing in a system. However, if you're balancing according to time, then you're doing just that: balancing times. That alone won't mean the unit is balanced. I'll admit that looking at cold hard numbers isn't a bad idea, but reaching balance while keeping diversity need subjectivity. Afterall, perfect balance is easy: remove two races from the game and have each maps be perfectly symetrical. Voila, balance (at the cost of diversity).
tl;dr your time related stuff is correct, but casters should have that kind of balance to begin with.
EDIT: and "I want to have the last word", seriously?
Screw it, ill finish this with 100 and start new with 101, makes more sense
I called them spammers becuase they obviously didnt read more than few lines of OP, or didnt try to understand it, and didnt read all comments little later that made it clear. And then come here, and about 25 pages later people agreed on something, they simply say its wrong.
And about balance - perhaps I made mistake by using that word. People react too emotionally to it. I simply compared 3 numbers, stated that it will make it fairer in sense of require plan&strategy skills, and people started talking about milions of others things that had nothing to do with it. Basically whole thread isonly off topic spam and theorycrafting. But what I wrote was never about theorycrafting, i simply compared 3 numbers and only made one objective conclusion - that protoss will now have to plan same time when they are producing HT for storm, as zerg has to plan while producing infestors for FG.
About last word, well it doesnt have to be mine, but i want it to be something on topic and what makes sense. But seriously it should have been locked 25 pages before, Im going to PM someone now, for last 25 pages there werent single on topic post and it is destroing whole thread. Now all people will se is arguing wheter storm or emp is better, and miss whole point.
I didnt warped-in this thread in 5 seconds. It took me some time, and its useless to destroy it because of childish arguments and spam. It could have been nice thread that could help players to understand that fundamentals of RTS games were broken by making it possible to win without good strategy and plan, and that when Blizzard is fixing it it is good thing whether it actually cause more imbalance or not.
And now everything anyone new in this thread will se is that EMP and Storm arent same spells and that T players hate storm, and p players hate EMP. Im sure it really helped community.
On March 05 2011 11:44 PPTouch wrote:
Suggestion:
Why not make it so that when KA is researched, only templar that are created out of gateways benefit from the upgrade while warped-in templars start with 50?
If you try little math, you will see that warped-in templars will still have storm faster
So this could not really changed anything.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 11:54 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 11:28 Aerakin wrote:
Your definition of "spammers" is flawed. Stop diregarding everything by labeling it as "spam". It definitely is not. Maybe all not posts are amazing, but in the end things will come down to an opinion. Besides: until the changes are well tested, balance work IS theorycrafting
Hell, your whole thread rests on an opinion (I won't argue about time: your are right about production time / production rate): the ghost-infestor-high templar spellcaster trio should be balanced according to time it takes to use their main spell. By looking at it from this angle, you are definitely right.
However, this rests on the assumption that there must be balance between these three units. This is something I simply cannot agree with. It is fine to isolate one thing in a system. However, if you're balancing according to time, then you're doing just that: balancing times. That alone won't mean the unit is balanced. I'll admit that looking at cold hard numbers isn't a bad idea, but reaching balance while keeping diversity need subjectivity. Afterall, perfect balance is easy: remove two races from the game and have each maps be perfectly symetrical. Voila, balance (at the cost of diversity).
tl;dr your time related stuff is correct, but casters should have that kind of balance to begin with.
EDIT: and "I want to have the last word", seriously? Screw it, ill finish this with 100 and start new with 101, makes more sense I called them spammers becuase they obviously didnt read more than few lines of OP, or didnt try to understand it, and didnt read all comments little later that made it clear. And then come here, and about 25 pages later people agreed on something, they simply say its wrong. And about balance - perhaps I made mistake by using that word. People react too emotionally to it. I simply compared 3 numbers, stated that it will make it fairer in sense of require plan&strategy skills, and people started talking about milions of others things that had nothing to do with it. Basically whole thread isonly off topic spam and theorycrafting. But what I wrote was never about theorycrafting, i simply compared 3 numbers and only made one objective conclusion - that protoss will now have to plan same time when they are producing HT for storm, as zerg has to plan while producing infestors for FG. About last word, well it doesnt have to be mine, but i want it to be something on topic and what makes sense. But seriously it should have been locked 25 pages before, Im going to PM someone now, for last 25 pages there werent single on topic post and it is destroing whole thread. Now all people will se is arguing wheter storm or emp is better, and miss whole point. I didnt warped-in this thread in 5 seconds. It took me some time, and its useless to destroy it because of childish arguments and spam. It could have been nice thread that could help players to understand that fundamentals of RTS games were broken by making it possible to win without good strategy and plan, and that when Blizzard is fixing it it is good thing whether it actually cause more imbalance or not. And now everything anyone new in this thread will se is that EMP and Storm arent same spells and that T players hate storm, and p players hate EMP. Im sure it really helped community. Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 11:44 PPTouch wrote:
Suggestion:
Why not make it so that when KA is researched, only templar that are created out of gateways benefit from the upgrade while warped-in templars start with 50? If you try little math, you will see that warped-in templars will still have storm faster So this could not really changed anything.
Except that you just started spouting information suggesting that this will improve balance etc. as if it's a good thing for the game, without taking into consideration other facts. You named your thread "Khaydarin amulet analysis" but without analyzing anything other than times to storm with and without it, and then, for some reason, decided to compare it to the ghost and the infestor. There not only is no basis for this comparison, but you didn't even actually analyze the effects on gameplay it has properly. In fact, the entire opening of your post is arguing that it will balance casters.
You also make this arbitrary (and most people would argue, incorrect) claim, that all the casters are balanced if you make the time to cast the same. Even assuming that balance between the units themselves in question is desirable (which it isn't for the good of the game), you need to consider the power, value, and function of the spells the casters in question have, and the defenses, movement speed, and other features of the unit. You made no attempt to do any of this, you just arbitrarily looked at build times and said "BALANCED IF AMULET GONE."
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On March 05 2011 02:10 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 02:06 Figgy wrote:
Psi Storm is by far the best ability in the game outside of Stim (which is only the best because it's required, terran army is useless without it) . I don't know how anyone can deny this. Ghost EMP doesn't compare in any situation, EMP has a much smaller radius and doesn't do even close to as much damage. Ghosts also can't turn into a much more useful creature once it's energy is gone. It's balanced supposedly because Terran Bio will beat Gateway units in a straight up fight (Which isn't the case with Sentries on the field anyways)
The fact that a High Templar can summon a spell that will either kill half a Terran army or force it to retreat at any point in time in just 5 seconds has been broken for a long time.
The game is also balanced around Blizzard maps. The reason it was mostly okay before was because Protoss simply had a hard time getting to High Templars without dying. With the new GSL maps, if this change doesn't go through Protoss will be winning every GSL until a balance change is done, Terran and Zerg simply have no reliable answer to HTs/Archons at the moment with the amulet upgrade.
You heard it here first. You're actually completely wrong. EMP does 100 damage to shields and nullifys caster energy. Storm does 80 damage if you sit in it for the full duration, and isn't instantaneous. Psi storm has a 1.5 radius, EMP has a radius of 2. So you're completely wrong on both counts. Yeah, 2 ghosts can't form into some uber ghost archon, but after you EMP you can snipe any bio unit, do 20 damage a shot to light, or call down nukes. A unit to unit comparison is stupid, pointless, useless, and you're just completely wrong.
Sure an emp does more damage, but it can't kill anything. What are you gonna do ? wait for the shields to regenerate so you can take them down again ? HT's storm does actual damage, so it's not even comparable to emp because emp can really only be used as damage in an engagement, while HT's storm can be used to single handedly smash entire packs of units while your army is somewhere else.
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On March 05 2011 11:44 PPTouch wrote:
Suggestion:
Why not make it so that when KA is researched, only templar that are created out of gateways benefit from the upgrade while warped-in templars start with 50?
Why would anyone research it and why would anyone keep gateways for it?
That's worse than removing the upgrade :D
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 19:36 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 02:10 Whitewing wrote:On March 05 2011 02:06 Figgy wrote:
Psi Storm is by far the best ability in the game outside of Stim (which is only the best because it's required, terran army is useless without it) . I don't know how anyone can deny this. Ghost EMP doesn't compare in any situation, EMP has a much smaller radius and doesn't do even close to as much damage. Ghosts also can't turn into a much more useful creature once it's energy is gone. It's balanced supposedly because Terran Bio will beat Gateway units in a straight up fight (Which isn't the case with Sentries on the field anyways)
The fact that a High Templar can summon a spell that will either kill half a Terran army or force it to retreat at any point in time in just 5 seconds has been broken for a long time.
The game is also balanced around Blizzard maps. The reason it was mostly okay before was because Protoss simply had a hard time getting to High Templars without dying. With the new GSL maps, if this change doesn't go through Protoss will be winning every GSL until a balance change is done, Terran and Zerg simply have no reliable answer to HTs/Archons at the moment with the amulet upgrade.
You heard it here first. You're actually completely wrong. EMP does 100 damage to shields and nullifys caster energy. Storm does 80 damage if you sit in it for the full duration, and isn't instantaneous. Psi storm has a 1.5 radius, EMP has a radius of 2. So you're completely wrong on both counts. Yeah, 2 ghosts can't form into some uber ghost archon, but after you EMP you can snipe any bio unit, do 20 damage a shot to light, or call down nukes. A unit to unit comparison is stupid, pointless, useless, and you're just completely wrong. Sure an emp does more damage, but it can't kill anything. What are you gonna do ? wait for the shields to regenerate so you can take them down again ? HT's storm does actual damage, so it's not even comparable to emp because emp can really only be used as damage in an engagement, while HT's storm can be used to single handedly smash entire packs of units while your army is somewhere else.
You're completely right: the two spells have ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS. EMP is to destroy caster mana and to badly weaken the protoss force for an engagement. The Ghost is a support unit with your army with powerful spells for weakening your enemy in fights.
The High Templar is a fighting unit in the protoss army, who has a button with an energy requirement instead of a normal attack. In their given functions, the EMP is the more effective of the two spells, but it doesn't really matter.
Like I said, a comparison between the two units and spells is pointless, people need to stop comparing them. They are not the same units, they do not serve the same function.
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It's clear by now that Sek-Kuar is disguising the fact that his OP is about balance by saying he just stated facts. It's obvious those facts were stated, but they inherently mean you thinks it's more balanced, which is foolish. Also, calling spammers people who can't read the whole thread, and say you convinced everyone, where i'd say you convinced no one, is another try to make it look like the post has some kind of validity, which it hasn't.
Furthermore, comparing 3 casters makes no sense, as i've been telling, because you disregard the workings of the rest of the races. The whole OP makes no sense actually. The races have too little in common for a comparison of this kind provide any kind of useful conclusion. In my opinion, if you want to compare them, you should mention how it affects each race, and how some things that taken out of context seem imbalanced, when put in their environment aren't.
I can also make a senseless post comparing how Terran has so many functions on his Command Center, while Protoss only have chronoboost on the Nexus, and proceed to say how it's not fair, and how removing them from Terran would make the worker production facility more balanced, then also stating if all the rest is equal, then it would be easier to balance the game. Of course completely disregarding how both races work, and that these two put in a game, in their races, aren't imbalanced.
Then you puts this gem
But there is one thing Im 100% sure about - if we will have similar caster, using similar mechanics and taking similar time to produce, it will be definitely easier to balance game around that...
Similar mechanics? I'm not sure where you got that idea. Not only mechanics, but units, techs, and the synnergy between them all, it's completely different. If they were similar, then yes, comparing casters would be a good thing, but they aren't, so comparing them is a waste of time.
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EPT
