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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 01:04 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:56 Novembermike wrote:On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? This seems pretty weak to me. Protoss dps is reduced against high hp units and non clumped units, so terran has the ability to react. It might not be possible for a terran going for a heavy early game bio force to react, but if that's the case it's simply a problem with the build and the strategy they are going for, not with the race. Also, carriers aren't aoe. Fair enough, I just think this is a decent avenue of thought to explore. Carriers can attack multiple targets simultaneously, correct? I just see the carrier as a multiple target DPS unit which is essentially the same as AoE, yet slightly different.
No, carriers launch their interceptors at one target until it's dead, then all the interceptors attack a different target. They just do their dps with robot fighters, but they're single target dps like any other non-aoe unit. It's even worse really, 'cause stim marines fry the interceptors absurdly fast and then the carrier sits there doing nothing.
Terran has plenty of other units besides the marines with dps just as good, if not better, than the protoss units (other than the AoE units). Take the siege tank for example, that's a terran AoE unit. The Thor has the highest single target DPS in the game (and is actually a fantastic unit late game to mix into your army, especially with the strike cannon to take out colossi and immortals). Banshees are quite good too, and if you mix in a couple ravens, you can shut down stalkers for a while giving your banshees tons of time to dps. Seeker missile is very strong against the protoss colossi ball, since the units tend to be quite clumped up and a lot of the units can't out run it. I've seen a few games where the terran got 2-3 ravens, saved up energy, and spammed seeker missiles at the protoss colossi ball. As soon as the toss spread his army out to minimize the damage, the marine/marauder force stimmed and ran in, and slaughtered everything due to how split up the toss force was, and how he couldn't get forcefields down.
You do not have to commit to mass barracks to still have high dps as terran. I actually think hellions are a much better mineral dump than marines late game too. Hilariously, hellions actually become cost effective vs. stalkers in large numbers.
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On March 05 2011 01:30 Novembermike wrote:
I don't think there's strong evidence either way. It's certainly not the case that Terran can't win a long game.
There is no evidence for anything that was said in this thread since page ~6 or something like that.
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On March 04 2011 05:21 Avenok wrote:
Would it be okay if an SCV could build a (maybe salvageable) tower that would apply a cooldown to a barracks and "Call Down" a Ghost to the tower's surrounding location and be able to instantly EMP? If the Protoss player manages to kill all Ghosts before they EMP (like Ghosts can EMP Templar before a battle) the Terran really wouldn't care because they can just "drop" another one and on demand EMP.
Would it be okay if Zerg could spawn an Infestor anywhere (which instantly kills a larva) that they have spread creep and instantly fungal? If a Protoss army is pushing out onto creep the Zerg could start spawning Infestors and chain "Root" the Protoss into place greatly delaying their attack.
The usual logic should be remembered: everything has to be considered in context. 1 to 1 comparisons can be bad.
Consider this in BW... defilers COULD get instant mana from consume. That game is considered pretty well balanced, right?
SCVs can built a sensor tower that sees all incoming drops. I guess that's fair enough, right, even though it completely makes dealing with incoming drops a million times easier? Terran can call down a MULE to repair something critical like a medivac or banshee when they get hurt a little during harass if they want. No preparation needed by the definition of no preparation (need an available warpgate) for HT warpins.
Zerg can see incoming attacks on the ground in late game well before they hit due to creep spread. Is it fair? Overlords around their bases see incoming drops... overlords are "free". Is it fair?
EDIT EDIT:
Plantetaries auto defend against a ton of harass, as do turrets, cannons, etc. They don't cost food. Is it fair?
You need 12 zealots and you have 12 free warpgates. You warp them in, INSTANTLY. Is it fair?
---Conclusion---
The way to answer these questions is to see the big picture. What are the win percentages at high level for the races in BW? In SC2?
Could Zerg have survived a Terran ball in SC/BW without consume? Would the game have been better without it?
Is Protoss more interesting and balanced within the game with warpin? With Amulet? Is Terran with Plantetaries and sensor towers? With dropships that heal?
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While I do think for long time that all discussions in this thread since page ~6 are nothing more than stupid theory crafting, Ill comment this one.
If there is Pro Protoss player who plays and plans well, and has his HTs ready, and Bronze Protoss player who simply warp-in HTs just when he realized his mistake (at which point Z could just say: Well I dont have Infestor, guess its GG), there is no really difference between this.
Your MULE example makes no sense. When there is Pro terran player, who was ready, and Bronze terran player who just called down MULE, then bronze player will have -270 minerals.
So if you can solve emergency problem for free or solve it for 270 minerals, its IMO not really same thing.
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Soooooo... Whats the actual chance of them implementing this nerf? 100%? If not then all this speculation and debate could be a complete waste of time.
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Nice analysis. I was thinking if they'd just change the caster time into like 70 though because 15 energy is a bit too long. Anyways, I think Blizzard have been going in the right direction with their patches and as a Protoss i'm fine with this.
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Psi Storm is by far the best ability in the game outside of Stim (which is only the best because it's required, terran army is useless without it) . I don't know how anyone can deny this. Ghost EMP doesn't compare in any situation, EMP has a much smaller radius and doesn't do even close to as much damage. Ghosts also can't turn into a much more useful creature once it's energy is gone. It's balanced supposedly because Terran Bio will beat Gateway units in a straight up fight (Which isn't the case with Sentries on the field anyways)
The fact that a High Templar can summon a spell that will either kill half a Terran army or force it to retreat at any point in time in just 5 seconds has been broken for a long time.
The game is also balanced around Blizzard maps. The reason it was mostly okay before was because Protoss simply had a hard time getting to High Templars without dying. With the new GSL maps, if this change doesn't go through Protoss will be winning every GSL until a balance change is done, Terran and Zerg simply have no reliable answer to HTs/Archons at the moment with the amulet upgrade.
You heard it here first.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 02:06 Figgy wrote:
Psi Storm is by far the best ability in the game outside of Stim (which is only the best because it's required, terran army is useless without it) . I don't know how anyone can deny this. Ghost EMP doesn't compare in any situation, EMP has a much smaller radius and doesn't do even close to as much damage. Ghosts also can't turn into a much more useful creature once it's energy is gone. It's balanced supposedly because Terran Bio will beat Gateway units in a straight up fight (Which isn't the case with Sentries on the field anyways)
The fact that a High Templar can summon a spell that will either kill half a Terran army or force it to retreat at any point in time in just 5 seconds has been broken for a long time.
The game is also balanced around Blizzard maps. The reason it was mostly okay before was because Protoss simply had a hard time getting to High Templars without dying. With the new GSL maps, if this change doesn't go through Protoss will be winning every GSL until a balance change is done, Terran and Zerg simply have no reliable answer to HTs/Archons at the moment with the amulet upgrade.
You heard it here first.
You're actually completely wrong. EMP does 100 damage to shields and nullifys caster energy. Storm does 80 damage if you sit in it for the full duration, and isn't instantaneous. Psi storm has a 1.5 radius, EMP has a radius of 2. So you're completely wrong on both counts.
Yeah, 2 ghosts can't form into some uber ghost archon, but after you EMP you can snipe any bio unit, do 20 damage a shot to light, or call down nukes.
A unit to unit comparison is stupid, pointless, useless, and you're just completely wrong.
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Not trying to troll. But probably the best reaction terran has to carriers is mass marine, with a handful of vikings in reserve to deal damage to the carriers as they retreat (due to lack of interceptors). (This situation isn't THAT bad for the protoss, as if they position their carriers well they can exchange interceptors for marines which is better than gas units for marines.)
If they thought templar were unbalanced in their current form they should've improved terran mech. There's no reason that all the spellcasters need to be the same, (DEFILER/CONSUME) and many people have already pointed out that while psi storm has a 200/200 research, and comes from a t3 building tech, the ghost and infestor both come much earlier in the game and don't require a research for their main ability. The infestor is even on the main tech path to hive so the infestor den cost is pretty negligible in the long run.
It's not the balance issue that I really mind, it's just that yet another cool mechanic got removed from the game. Colossi are already a boring unimaginative unit that protoss is forced to get in all matchups. And now templar get a nerf. zzzzzzzz. I appreciate that the game needs to be balanced, but if it's balanced at the expense of removing all the fun mechanics from it then NO i will not watch pro matches, and no I will not keep playing.
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On March 05 2011 01:34 Novembermike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 01:30 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
[b]Is there a problem in the TvP matchup with roots in DPS roles?
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? The problem I always saw with the amulet in the matchup is that the Terran cannot effectively make the finishing blow. Instead even if he wins the clash and has a decent amount of units left over, the amulet keeps protoss alive. Any place the Terran decides to take his weakened army he encounters psi storm instantly and probably has no answer. This effectively drags out the matchup unnecessarily where the protoss should have lost especially if he went mass colossi first(hard to regenerate). If the protoss player isn't losing then he shouldn't have lost. The Terran player missing his timing isn't the protoss player's problem.
When your army dies to your opponent's in a large clash, you're losing. And saying that Terrans should just attack before HTs are out is completely beside the point of whether KA is OP.
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If amulet is being removed, then EMP and FG should have to be researched just like storm. 200/200 upgrade. HTs already require a twilight council then their templar building. THEN you have to start storm research. Ghosts require a ghost academy then they pop out with the EMP ability. Infesters, the same as ghosts.
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On March 05 2011 02:25 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 01:34 Novembermike wrote:On March 05 2011 01:30 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
Is there a problem in the TvP matchup with roots in DPS roles?
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? The problem I always saw with the amulet in the matchup is that the Terran cannot effectively make the finishing blow. Instead even if he wins the clash and has a decent amount of units left over, the amulet keeps protoss alive. Any place the Terran decides to take his weakened army he encounters psi storm instantly and probably has no answer. This effectively drags out the matchup unnecessarily where the protoss should have lost especially if he went mass colossi first(hard to regenerate). If the protoss player isn't losing then he shouldn't have lost. The Terran player missing his timing isn't the protoss player's problem. When your army dies to your opponent's in a large clash, you're losing. And saying that Terrans should just attack before HTs are out is completely beside the point of whether KA is OP.
The bolded part is provably false. If you're army dies to your opponent's in a large clash but you're winning, you aren't losing. If you lose your army but you're winning, you're winning. You don't "deserve" to win if you can't go all the way.
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On March 05 2011 02:29 Gatored wrote:
If amulet is being removed, then EMP and FG should have to be researched just like storm. 200/200 upgrade. HTs already require a twilight council then their templar building. THEN you have to start storm research. Ghosts require a ghost academy then they pop out with the EMP ability. Infesters, the same as ghosts.
Every race is not the same. This whole 'well you have this, you have to lose this because we lost that!' argument is ridiculous.
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On March 05 2011 01:52 ToyotomiXD wrote:
Soooooo... Whats the actual chance of them implementing this nerf? 100%? If not then all this speculation and debate could be a complete waste of time.
100% this nerf is happening, or some type of nerf. Warp in storm is just way too good as has been said over and over since the very beginning of the game from both normal players (non biased ones at least) and pros.
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United States7483 Posts
The hilarious thing is though, removal of the amulet is a nerf to carriers too, since the only feasible way to use carriers vs terran in the late game is with high templar support to clear out the marines so your interceptors don't die instantly.
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On March 05 2011 01:45 Sek-Kuar wrote:While I do think for long time that all discussions in this thread since page ~6 are nothing more than stupid theory crafting + Show Spoiler +, Ill comment this one.
If there is Pro Protoss player who plays and plans well, and has his HTs ready, and Bronze Protoss player who simply warp-in HTs just when he realized his mistake (at which point Z could just say: Well I dont have Infestor, guess its GG), there is no really difference between this.
Your MULE example makes no sense. When there is Pro terran player, who was ready, and Bronze terran player who just called down MULE, then bronze player will have -270 minerals.
So if you can solve emergency problem for free or solve it for 270 minerals, its IMO not really same thing.
That's a pretty dismissive thing to say.
I've offered at least a half dozen well thought out comparisons using in-game metrics and math. Everyone (protoss players) thinks it is flawed, but it is far from theorycrafting when you take in-game metrics, throw them on the table, and start to analyze them.
There is a voluminous amount of BS on this thread, sure, but some people are actually trying to look at these things in a constructive way.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 02:39 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 01:45 Sek-Kuar wrote:While I do think for long time that all discussions in this thread since page ~6 are nothing more than stupid theory crafting + Show Spoiler +, Ill comment this one.
If there is Pro Protoss player who plays and plans well, and has his HTs ready, and Bronze Protoss player who simply warp-in HTs just when he realized his mistake (at which point Z could just say: Well I dont have Infestor, guess its GG), there is no really difference between this.
Your MULE example makes no sense. When there is Pro terran player, who was ready, and Bronze terran player who just called down MULE, then bronze player will have -270 minerals.
So if you can solve emergency problem for free or solve it for 270 minerals, its IMO not really same thing. That's a pretty dismissive thing to say. I've offered at least a half dozen well thought out comparisons using in-game metrics and math. Everyone (protoss players) thinks it is flawed, but it is far from theorycrafting when you take in-game metrics, throw them on the table, and start to analyze them. There is a voluminous amount of BS on this thread, sure, but some people are actually trying to look at these things in a constructive way.
That's actually what theorycrafting is, literally. Analyzing in game data and statistics to come to some form of conclusion. People just like to throw the term around like it's a bad thing, because some people ONLY theorycraft and never test their conclusions, or aren't high enough level to test their conclusions.
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I'll say it once again:
Unlike Ghost/raven/infestor which are situational units, High Templars are supposed to be main DPS of protoss army, because of how weak gateway units are. There no other way to win in lategame with protoss other then using colossi or HTs.
Comparing them to other casters is completely misunderstanding of game design.
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there is a sick flaw in here. a unit saving up for 1 storm and is close to useless after that first storm, has less range then what its supposed to counter "feedback vs EMP" emp is Cost effective even tho the protoss Tech switches or does not use Templars. EMP can do 1k +++ dmg to a protoss with a decent emp, Templars does 1k DMG if u stand in it the full duration. Feedback u have to single target a ghost, rending it even more useless seeing as 1ghost is by far more cost effective then 1 templar even tho it costs 100minerals more. its the same with Infestors. they delay pushes, they stop drop harass they can harass lines ect. but its not as sick as EMP. NOW IM NOT SAYING that there is a change needed for the Amulet. but removing it will make templars way to bad before LATE LATE LATE LATE game when u actually have the gas to waste cash on it. even then the Collosus/Phoenix combination is gonna be superior. the tech route towards HT's won't even be worth getting the tech other then council.
u can theory craft as much as u want, but this is how it is in game and how the game is played atm and prob will be in the future if this goes trough. its way to much of a nerf for a unit that costs that much.
even going templars now with the amulet can be extremely risky seeing as u have to keep an eye on ur army 24/7, if u as much as look away for one second u have a chance to get butt hurt by a decent emp. u might say Spread the templars. but seriously. make more then 1 Ghost try spreading out 5 templars vs 3 Ghosts. ^^ ul have 1 storm left doing nothing cuz u can easily Move out of it.
Flame on!
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Ok Luvz, I know you're on the pro-HT side but unless you're going to type like an adult and use real words, capital letters at the beginning of sentences please don't try to help.
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EPT
