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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 03 2011 08:04 tehemperorer wrote:
@Knee_of_Justice:
It is true that the warp gate adds an unstable element to the game, but that's what I thought xelnaga towers and sensor towers were for. Same with overlords.
Those who complain about the cost of sensor towers need to get their 3rd or 4th gas faster, simple as that.
Xelnaga and sensor towers are another brick in the wall. Xelnaga reinforce the winning player's map control. I dont quite know what to make of sensor towers. Overlords have always had a scouting and vision role. Why blizzard decided to compound this with maphack creep is confusing. Maybe to make up for the loss of "detectorific" overlords in BW.
I dont think that vision solves the problem at all, but it is definitely helpful.
This entire discussion (what it has evolved into anyway) is fruitless unless blizzard addresses the root of the problem. Tinkering with the top of the tech tree is futile until the bottom is stabilized. IMO.
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ITS RETARDED GONNA IMBALANCE PVT IF YOU DONT PLAY LIKE ALL ELSE ( MASS COLOSSI ) -_-
User was temp banned for this post.
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by this logic you can deduce that a ghost is OP because it can immediately attack upon being built, as well as snipe any biological unit, where as an infestor must build eggs and then wait for them to deal damage, and an HT can only deal damage if there is a spellcaster nearby. I think this will really hurt the depth of the game because no one is going to go HT over collossi anymore because they are wasted supply up until that point of energy,and even then they are so slow and dont deal instant damage that they arent effective. they were much more effective whenever you could warp them in with a proxy to reinforce your main push because of course the previous ones died because they have zero life or shields...
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*I say this irrespective of the current balance of the game*
I believe from a game-design point of view that the ability to instantly create a templar with a ready-to-cast storm anywhere on the battlefield in pylon range is retardedly imbalanced. It goes against the fundamental decision-making process in any good RTS: forward planning to calculate risk vs reward for all decisions you make. Any one who wishes to argue that such a mechanic is 'good' for a game is an idiot. Sure it's fun and exciting, but it's not 'good' on a fundamental level.
Furthermore, I believe the ability to instantly create *any* unit you want on the battlefield (ala warp-in mechanic) is also horrible from a game-design point of view when trying to create a solid real-time strategy game. The reason that Protoss gateway units are so comparably weak compared to their SC1 counterparts, the reason that stalker attack scales so poorly at +1 per level, and the reason that HT and DT techs are now split all stem back to the fact that warp-in is so over-powered in an RTS that Blizz had to nerf Protoss in many other areas to compensate. This mechanic is also the reason that map designers have such a difficult time balancing the game through varying map-sizes, coupled with the larva inject (but I will not touch this issue as it is a whole different kettle of fish), because the potency of the 4warpgate rush is unaffected by map-size.
That's the end of my little rant. As for the current situation with the amulet upgrade? Honestly, I don't know. It is ridiculously overpowered but when you factor in all the other fundamentally ridiculous things Blizz has thrown into this game, you're left with a balancing nightmare.
On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'.
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Noobie here
could somebody explain why do u think storm is OP (with haydarin amulet)?
I have some thesis
1. because you can reinforce ur attack with a 5 seconds delay?
2. because you can defense any position (with power source) with a 5 seconds delay?
3. because it do to much damage
I really dont think that 1 or 2 were problems from HT itself but from warpgate, is warpgate OP i think yes, is planetary fortress OP i think yes, are mules OP, i think yes (what in the zerg is op? poor zerg :p)
could somebody explain me, i really dont understand why and if the reason are tactical (position and time to land a storm), i think that explain why the HT is not underpowered in terms of life and speed
i think that the
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On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'.
It'd eliminate warp-in storms at least. It's a pretty neat idea.
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On March 03 2011 10:37 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'. It'd eliminate warp-in storms at least. It's a pretty neat idea.
lol it's much more simple and intuitive to just make the upgrade by +15 energy instead.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 03 2011 10:05 LilClinkin wrote:
*I say this irrespective of the current balance of the game*
I believe from a game-design point of view that the ability to instantly create a templar with a ready-to-cast storm anywhere on the battlefield in pylon range is retardedly imbalanced. It goes against the fundamental decision-making process in any good RTS: forward planning to calculate risk vs reward for all decisions you make. Any one who wishes to argue that such a mechanic is 'good' for a game is an idiot. Sure it's fun and exciting, but it's not 'good' on a fundamental level.
Furthermore, I believe the ability to instantly create *any* unit you want on the battlefield (ala warp-in mechanic) is also horrible from a game-design point of view when trying to create a solid real-time strategy game. The reason that Protoss gateway units are so comparably weak compared to their SC1 counterparts, the reason that stalker attack scales so poorly at +1 per level, and the reason that HT and DT techs are now split all stem back to the fact that warp-in is so over-powered in an RTS that Blizz had to nerf Protoss in many other areas to compensate. This mechanic is also the reason that map designers have such a difficult time balancing the game through varying map-sizes, coupled with the larva inject (but I will not touch this issue as it is a whole different kettle of fish), because the potency of the 4warpgate rush is unaffected by map-size.
That's the end of my little rant. As for the current situation with the amulet upgrade? Honestly, I don't know. It is ridiculously overpowered but when you factor in all the other fundamentally ridiculous things Blizz has thrown into this game, you're left with a balancing nightmare.
On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'.
No, it doesn't. If you are aware that your opponent can warp in storms, you can account for that in your play, and employ tactics to defeat it. Drop a sensor tower: no more worries about storm drops. Bring ghosts with your drops to snipe/emp high templars as they warp in, now your drops are nearly unbeatable. Spread your units out, get tanks and air control for vision. Now high templars have to be exceptionally careful because tanks will snipe them if they try to storm. Use your ghosts carefully, get a raven and take out observers, then cloak your ghosts and BAM, bunch of high templars out of the fight. If he reinforces with more, just keep playing safe.
It still rewards decision making and planning quite a bit, it's just another strong tactic. In fact, the reason high templar instant warping were so strong is that players were A) sticking on pure bio, and B) not playing in a style that truly recognizes the risk.
And it's still beatable with bio, I remember watching a pro level korean game between a terran who made only marines vs. a protoss who went for high templar/chargelots, and the terran won that game. Long game too.
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On March 03 2011 08:47 Ratel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:09 jaiiiii wrote:
Reading this thread is giving me a major headache.
For all you protoss players that are arguing that the only effective way to deal with drops is with HT...grow a pair. seriously. unless terran is doom dropping you there is no excuse for not being able to warp in a few extra units to deal with the drop. And for all of you who are sitting around whining that to put a cannon down is a huge investment and its not worth it...stop complaining. It's not like terran presses "T" and insta kills the cannon, and every single probe on ur mineral line. the cannon is there to buy you time to get ur probes out/warp stuff in/pull stuff back etc. You aren't even allowed to argue about the whole "oh but a cannon is 100+150" cause dont be silly, you have pylons all over the place.
For all you terrans out there who are thinking "oh man i can't drop this toss currently bc he can warp in hts and save the day"...learn to dodge. seriously. And for those terrans among you who are actually getting warp prism harassed by ht...there's really no excuse. The HT is an absurdly slow unit with a casting range that means you WILL see it on ur minimap, and if you dont react, I dont even know what to say.
There are valid arguments to both sides: however, they're completely overshadowed by the sheer amount of idiocy posted by 500 other people who love to theorycraft.
-terrans want protoss to be punished for an undefended base. FAIR ENOUGH. everyone should be punished for that. and in the current situation, we are...for 5 seconds (assuming at least 1 wg is on cooldown). After that point, in the current situation toss will warp in 1 or 2 ht and use his storms (apparently this is enough to scare off whatever terran units are there).
-protoss are arguing that with this nerf, HT is a walking deadweight, a 50/150 resource sink that does nothing for an additional 45 seconds. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is no point arguing this. If we're going to compare casters..The second u spawn a ghost, it can shoot at something. It can cloak and go run around being a general nuisance(albeit with an upgrade). It can go scout. Basically, it can be useful. If there were no energy upgrade for ghosts IT WOULD NOT MATTER. The ghost could still retain some of its use. I'm not going to argue past that, and if you think that I'm incorrect, I cannot help you. If you can find useful things to do with an HT for 45 seconds, you are the second coming of our lord and savior. ( I actually find this to be one of the most annoying things. That terrans refuse to incorporate ghosts into their standard bioball against toss, the effectiveness of emp is absolutely absurd and most toss will simply ignore the ghost in a big fight. )
I'm not sure if i've stated this, but im a protoss player. I think the nerf is absolutely ridiculous, removal of KA will mess everything up. Will lead to more stagnant robo/stargate play, both of which are too easily countered. For all of you terran who sits here thinking "omgod protoss t1 is fine these guys are all nubs" just go play a few games as protoss.
Other things I believe
Protoss side:the HT needs a cooldown on it's ability when just spawning. Leave the upgrade in, etc. Personally, I believe the current cost to make HT's so lethal is completely justified, seeing as how they wipe the floor with bio. Nothing wrong with adding a 5-10 second delay on storm's ability to be cast.
Terran side: you guys need to start exploring alternative paths. There is not a single terran that I have faced who does not complain "BLAH BLAH BLAH MECH SUCKS AGAINST TOSS BLAH BLAH BLAH". I feel pretty confident in my ability to say that about 90% of you haven't even tried it. In fact, I'll go so far as to say 95% of you haven't tried it. 5% don't want to, the other 90% are the ultimate theorycrafters of lore. Mech is absolutely beastly against Toss, if executed correctly. This game is not BW. You don't go pure mech. SO WHAT. you have the most cost effective t1 army in the game, throw in a little mech and sacrifice some of your mobility to up your army damage output. Not like protoss players are sitting here thinking "its ok i can run into this siege line right here".
Overall: Everone on this forum needs to grow up. Seriously. I swear to god the first day I started lurking on TL i thought to myself "wow, what an awesome place where educated people come to discuss things in a civil manner." Then all the cracks showed through and I realized that either A) you're all trolling me or B) you all don't actually own sc2 and you're just playing the game out in your heads. Just go play the game, seriously. this is the most ignorant and weak argument i have seen in all "amulet is being removed" threads your argument about "do something with your ht while you are waiting" is the stupidest thing i heard hts unlike ghosts are 10 times slower, they cant attack,and all they can do is cast 1 feedback once they are spawned before being able to do storm
Apparently you can't read and analyze a statement correctly, i clearly said "If you can find useful things to do with an HT for 45 seconds, you are the second coming of our lord and savior.". Nowhere in there did I argue that protoss should be finding something to do with their HT's while waiting for them to save up energy. Maybe you should double check that you read correctly before coming up with some rebuttal.
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On March 03 2011 10:05 LilClinkin wrote:
*I say this irrespective of the current balance of the game*
I believe from a game-design point of view that the ability to instantly create a templar with a ready-to-cast storm anywhere on the battlefield in pylon range is retardedly imbalanced. It goes against the fundamental decision-making process in any good RTS: forward planning to calculate risk vs reward for all decisions you make. Any one who wishes to argue that such a mechanic is 'good' for a game is an idiot. Sure it's fun and exciting, but it's not 'good' on a fundamental level.
Furthermore, I believe the ability to instantly create *any* unit you want on the battlefield (ala warp-in mechanic) is also horrible from a game-design point of view when trying to create a solid real-time strategy game. The reason that Protoss gateway units are so comparably weak compared to their SC1 counterparts, the reason that stalker attack scales so poorly at +1 per level, and the reason that HT and DT techs are now split all stem back to the fact that warp-in is so over-powered in an RTS that Blizz had to nerf Protoss in many other areas to compensate. This mechanic is also the reason that map designers have such a difficult time balancing the game through varying map-sizes, coupled with the larva inject (but I will not touch this issue as it is a whole different kettle of fish), because the potency of the 4warpgate rush is unaffected by map-size.
That's the end of my little rant. As for the current situation with the amulet upgrade? Honestly, I don't know. It is ridiculously overpowered but when you factor in all the other fundamentally ridiculous things Blizz has thrown into this game, you're left with a balancing nightmare.
On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'.
This is totally off topic, but Ill comment it because there are some perfect points.
At least from my point of view reasoning for nerfing DT compared to BW is all about Warp-In. While in BW building archive, getting DT and getting DT into enemy base could be simply translated as "enemy had a lot of time to react". In SC2 appart from fact that its possible to hide DS behind pylons, Warp-In significantly (by something like 1 min 30 sec or so) decreases enemy time to react, which means that Blizzard had to increase DS cost and build time.
But even more important point is how Warp-In affect general production. For example standard 3 rax timing push has very different strength in offense and defense. Lets say that at the time X 3 rax can have 6 Marauders and 9 marines ready to defend, but only 3 marauders and 5 marines for offense. And every strategy works like that.
So game is balanced around units that have different speed and other properties, and around strategies that provide some level of defense and also means some level of threat for enemy.
But due to warp-in warpgate based play basically has same offense power as defense power. How do you want to balance it?
Do you want for 1 base warpgate all-in to defend as well as Terran all-ining on 1 base? Well then 1 base warpgate all-in will be much stronger than Terran all-ining on 1 base in offensive mode...
Or do you want for 1 base warpgate all-in to attack as strong as Terran all-ining on 1 base? Well then 1 base warpgate all-in defense will be much weaker than Terran all-ining on 1 base...
So only choice is to make P units weaker, so they are kinda in middle of everything. Which by definition means its imbalanced. But its the only way to make it at least little balanced...
And now to on topic part of LilClinkin post: anything like this that you suggested will never happen. Game has to remain simple, so new players can understand, so its easier to see relations and so its easier to balance and control. It would make game extremely confusing to implement something like this.
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Why is zerg completely ignored in this argument?
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On March 03 2011 10:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 10:05 LilClinkin wrote:
*I say this irrespective of the current balance of the game*
I believe from a game-design point of view that the ability to instantly create a templar with a ready-to-cast storm anywhere on the battlefield in pylon range is retardedly imbalanced. It goes against the fundamental decision-making process in any good RTS: forward planning to calculate risk vs reward for all decisions you make. Any one who wishes to argue that such a mechanic is 'good' for a game is an idiot. Sure it's fun and exciting, but it's not 'good' on a fundamental level.
Furthermore, I believe the ability to instantly create *any* unit you want on the battlefield (ala warp-in mechanic) is also horrible from a game-design point of view when trying to create a solid real-time strategy game. The reason that Protoss gateway units are so comparably weak compared to their SC1 counterparts, the reason that stalker attack scales so poorly at +1 per level, and the reason that HT and DT techs are now split all stem back to the fact that warp-in is so over-powered in an RTS that Blizz had to nerf Protoss in many other areas to compensate. This mechanic is also the reason that map designers have such a difficult time balancing the game through varying map-sizes, coupled with the larva inject (but I will not touch this issue as it is a whole different kettle of fish), because the potency of the 4warpgate rush is unaffected by map-size.
That's the end of my little rant. As for the current situation with the amulet upgrade? Honestly, I don't know. It is ridiculously overpowered but when you factor in all the other fundamentally ridiculous things Blizz has thrown into this game, you're left with a balancing nightmare.
On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'. No, it doesn't. If you are aware that your opponent can warp in storms, you can account for that in your play, and employ tactics to defeat it. Drop a sensor tower: no more worries about storm drops. Bring ghosts with your drops to snipe/emp high templars as they warp in, now your drops are nearly unbeatable. Spread your units out, get tanks and air control for vision. Now high templars have to be exceptionally careful because tanks will snipe them if they try to storm. Use your ghosts carefully, get a raven and take out observers, then cloak your ghosts and BAM, bunch of high templars out of the fight. If he reinforces with more, just keep playing safe. It still rewards decision making and planning quite a bit, it's just another strong tactic. In fact, the reason high templar instant warping were so strong is that players were A) sticking on pure bio, and B) not playing in a style that truly recognizes the risk. And it's still beatable with bio, I remember watching a pro level korean game between a terran who made only marines vs. a protoss who went for high templar/chargelots, and the terran won that game. Long game too.
"No it doesn't" refers to which part of the multiple dozen lines you quoted in your post?
And the game you're talking about was featured in a Day9 Daily. Pretty recent. It actually happened as you said, mass marines vs Chargelots and HT. But the reason this was so strong is not because MM are actually (cost-)effective against HT, but because the marines work well in small groups which makes it so easy to abuse their mobility. It was the overall aggressivity that Rainbow used that made his mass marine style work, not the fact that the unit itself is worth a damn beaver against HTs.
And I do agree with the poster you disagreed with. It is a fail in terms of game design if one race does not need to rely on anticipation and planning and can just warp in the units that are needed once you know what your opponent is going for. I'm not even arguing it might be broken (what would I know about that) - I'm just saying it doesn't give any incentive towards strategic thinking, which is a key component of any good player (nobody will disagree on that point). And it is exactly the possibility of these "easy mode" decisions that induced the nerf of gateway units into oblivion (definitely a trend of Blizzard who gets aware of the hilarity they created with the warpin mechanic).
edit: The D9D episode was #264.
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On March 03 2011 11:01 ibreakurface wrote:
Why is zerg completely ignored in this argument?
lolol, thats what ive been wondering for quite some time now. i guess its because the HT vs Ghost rage has been going on since the beginning of beta. Infestors were never really used to counter HT (tho i have had a ton of fun NPing HTs and feedbacking the rest of them) while Ghosts have always been used as a specific counter.
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On March 03 2011 08:57 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:43 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh? I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3. Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game. I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes. Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go. Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous. Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't. What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations. Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL. Yup, you are correct on all accounts. We should be looking at storm alone, not the matchup as a whole, because the strength of storm does not affect the balance of the matchup >.< Is this your reasoning? I hope not. You still have yet to play Protoss. I don't care if you're IdrA, I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss. I play Protoss and Terran and at least that means I can look at the topic objectively while you come in with a personal bias. Another question; stimmed marines aren't an extremely fast unit? LOLOL kk Your responses... mindblowing ignorance... hard to comprehend. 1) The counterargument consisted of the premise "Terran too strong early game, thus Toss needs to be too strong lategame." My God. Awful argument. Do you know what would be better? Terran too strong early game, matchup is balanced lategame! Because guess what, it would be at least more balanced, and then they could work on fixing whatever supposedly gives Terran a superior advantage in the early game. Same vice versa, if they could make TvP equal early-midgame, even if P still dominates lategame, it's still better than what it is now. The argument about Terran early game concerning what I was talking about is so mindblowing stupid I'm still having trouble dealing with it. 2) If you can't listen to other players simply because they play a single race then you're ridiculously stupid. Is TLO your only source of legit advice? But wait, he plays random, which gives you an early game advantage because of having to scout early, so the other person should DEFINITELY PWN LATEGAME according to your logic, am I right? Not to mention the fact I can play Protoss anyways and easily stomp the lower Masters league players sub300 points, except PvP (yes, I'm aware that doesn't eliminate the bias situation, it just shows an overall higher understanding of the game). 3) Compared to speedlings, you're right stimmed marines aren't very fast. You're referring to a unit that has near none of the qualities I mentioned. Marines are not constantly moving. They stop to shoot. That is different than a speedling. While they thus have a meager 10 more HP than their Zergling companion in this situation, they are much less likely to survive because they were stationary at the time. Zerglings are also immensely cheaper and thus it's a lot less of a deal to lose them. LOLOL kk
1) No; in fact, having Terran too strong early game and Toss too strong late game makes it somewhat balanced, but in no way that anybody actually likes. The reason why Tosses are up in arms about Amulet is that if you nerf Toss lategame and NOT Terran early game, then the matchup becomes skewered: Protoss never has an advantage.
"Mindblowingly stupid" is what you call looking at the matchup as a whole. Well, that's silly. In order to determine how a patch will affect balance you MUST look at the matchup as a whole. It would be idiotic not to.
2) I didn't say you can't listen to their opinion, you just have to be aware of bias. You do not play Protoss at a high enough level to make any judgements concerning the balance of Templars with Amulet, I'm sorry. Accept that and grow up.
3) Marines will have 55 hp by the time Storm comes out (-10 due to stim, I could see that). Also, storm COUNTERS bio, you idiot. Of course your marines won't survive a storm. It'd be pretty retarded if you heard Protoss players being all like "Yeah so I made Collosus and they all died to Vikings, and Vikings can fly, so it's obviously imbalanced" Your bio ball SHOULD die to storm if the Protoss is any competent. Keep it in mind you get marines after 15 supply while it takes Temps with storm and amulet to come out post-20 minutes. I see Amulet as a reward for a Protoss just surviving teching to Temps. And when you see Amulet, you should stop making Bio. If you keep going Bio, then you're just flat out retarded.
4) You're doing a horrible job arguing this thing out, maybe you should go take your arguments to reddit or something
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On March 03 2011 09:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:07 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:41 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. 1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts. 2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio. 3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. You know, you spend so much time commenting everything that my logic is flawed, but you have never said single argument other than: 1) Theorycrafting in general 2) Theorycrafting about races you dont play 3) Theorycrafting how hard your race is I simply suggest you to join chat channel "Theorycrafting for Bronze Masters" I heard they are live on every realm. If I say that 49,5 seconds is closer to 45 seconds rather than 5 seconds to 45 seconds, its either true or prove Im wrong. But trying to imply that I said something I didnt to use it as argument against comparing two numbers is just stupid, and you better join that chat channel I suggested. I've listed many arguments, and I am a 2900 Masters player that has used HT in place of Colossi since August of 2010. I know the matchup, and I know enough to tell you that your logic is flawed. AGAIN, your analysis is so reduced in scope and comes to a conclusion completely ignorant of the other mitigating factors in the matchup. My analysis is 100% correct because all I said was that 45, 50 and 49,5 are more similar numbers than 45, 50 and 5. Because for some stupid reason all Protoss believe than HTs takes 50 seconds to build, so removing amulet is unfair. You have come here and started theorycrafting about how is everything different or whatever. Since the entire point of this thread was to explain gaining energy, and how does some mechanics affect it, I cant really see how could I possible be wrong unless 5 is greater number than 50, which I frankly believe we could finally agree is not true. Your analysis is 100% correct, yes, and I am not insulting your intelligence; no doubt you spent a lot of time on it and are most likely proud of the results. My problem is the scope of analysis that you did and the conclusions you derived from it. I have played over 1800 league games (excluding custom and other accounts) since beta, and if I am theorycrafting, I am doing it with special care taken to stay true to what I know in the games I've played at what used to be considered a high level. My grievance is that you made a comparison between 3 choice casters (no mention of the regen rates and build times of the sentry, raven, banshee, phoenix, queen, mothership, medivac, or battlecruiser) and excluded a lot of important factors that provide evidence for the reason KA was in the game to begin with. The only conclusion I made was that it is fair to remove KA because now Protoss will have to think almost as much about using their specialist as other races have to.
Protoss will have to think almost as much about using their specialist as other races have to?
You know I was taking you seriously until you said that. Just, wow. I'm not even going to explain how stupid that sounds.
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What if Templar warp-in time was increased? From 5 seconds to 10 or something?
How would you Terrans feel about that?
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Another way to approach this instead of reducing the energy provided by the amulet or by changing amulet to increase energy regeneration might be to simply make High Templar take 10 seconds to warp in instead of 5.
Another thing that people need to address more is that both of the other races still keep their energy upgrades. I will draw a comparison:
Without the amulet upgrade, High Templar are actually much more vulnerable because of the time it takes to charge energy (obviously). However, when the other 2 races get their energy upgrade, they are sheltered, be it inside a barracks, or in the form of an egg. The trade-off with being able to be warped in anywhere there is a psionic matrix does not even compare to being sheltered for energy.
If anything, removing warp gates but keeping the amulet upgrade would actually be more beneficial for High Templar (don't misunderstand, I am saying JUST High Templar) because they can also be sheltered inside the gateway in while "gaining" energy.
Edit: Someone beat me to the increased warp in suggestion...
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It would be interesting if they kept the amulet upgrade but forbid templar (dark and high) from being made in warpgates and only be made in gateways. Perhaps also a similar deal for the immortal.
Maybe this might also remove the pretty dull existence of gateways which at the moment are basically only obstacles of inconvenience to be overcome as swiftly as possible
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HT
Gateway 150/0
Cyber Core 150/0
Warpgate 50/50
Twilight Council 150/100
Templar Archives 150/200
Psi Storm 200/200
Khaydarin Amulet 150/150
High Templar 50/150
Total-1050/850
Ghost
Barracks 150/0
Ghost Academy 150/50
Moebius Reactor 100/100
Ghost 150/150
Total-550/300
Infestor
Lair 150/100
Infestation Pit 100/100
Pathogen Glands 150/150
Infestor 150/100
Total-550/450
For how much more I'm spending my HT should be better than these other units so stop comparing them
Edit: Forgot Cyber Core and Warpgate
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Since the OP is back in the thread, could you edit your opening post with the fact that Templar should only require a Council and that storm should not require research irrespective of effect on game balance? After all, your argument is that 'balancing' (homogenizing) the casters would make it easier to balance the game.
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EPT
