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On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 12:44 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply. cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min, when zerg only starts his third and doesn't have his corruptors ready. Usually at that time, zerg tries to keep protoss in his base by using backdoors attacks and forcing FFs. Lately most Protoss and Terran progamers admit that zergs are weak, and they don't mean that its because of maps. I think stim nerf will help a lot in ZvT, but ZvP will be the same. Chronoboost research time also needs to be increased, so that Zergs had enough time to prepare. Overall unit stats are ok, except Ultralisks, which are completely useless now.
my thoughts as a zerg player:
zerg units vs gateway units are cost efficient, but not supply efficient
zerg units vs gateway units + colossi is cost inefficient and supply inefficient
zerg units vs full 200/200 protoss deathball is extremely cost inefficient and extremely supply inefficient.
you mention chronoboost research time being too long, I assume you meant warp gate technology.
most any compotent zerg can easily shut down a 4 (6 is a bit harder) gate given a little bit of preparation time, all you need to do is scout it in time and you'll be fine. but I must agree that it is very annoying that protoss can attack and potentially win early game without leaving any kind of abuseable timing for the zerg to counterattack immiedietly afterwards, that feels kind of unfair.
you have never seen the miracle of transfused ultras have you?
if I have 5 ultras, 10 queens vs 20 stalkers, 10 zealots, 3 colossi, then I expect to lose at most 2 units in that fight, and I'm quite confident that it is possible to not lose a single unit. (assuming the battle is on creep)
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On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 12:44 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply. cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min, when zerg only starts his third and doesn't have his corruptors ready. Usually at that time, zerg tries to keep protoss in his base by using backdoors attacks and forcing FFs. Lately most Protoss and Terran progamers admit that zergs are weak, and they don't mean that its because of maps. I think stim nerf will help a lot in ZvT, but ZvP will be the same. Chronoboost research time also needs to be increased, so that Zergs had enough time to prepare. Overall unit stats are ok, except Ultralisks, which are completely useless now.
If Zerg "only starts" this third by the 15thmin, then you are a) in Gold league or b)a pretty awful Zerg
Most Protoss have their third by 15mins, Zerg should easily be looking for his 5th by then
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On March 01 2011 10:41 PPTouch wrote:
medivac are tier 2
ghosts are tier 2
ht are t3
colo are t3
i honestly i agree that the +25 is wrong but COMPLETELY removing it is absurd. it should give +20 starting energy so they cant INSTANTLY storm but theyre not useless fo 50 ingame seconds
I completely agree with you. +15or+20 you should be a good compromise.
For those who still find the colossus too strong, you can't nerf every major protoss units.. They need to have some units that allow them to burst efficiently.
I perfectly understand that colossus are a nightmare for most of zergs player. But to be honest the real problem come from the FF... They can hold for 10 sec an entire army, fucked up the IA. They need to be breakable with HP with a neutral status, not light, not armored with something like 400 HP.
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On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:
You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min
replay plz, or it didn't happen.
Deathball ready at 15min is absolute bullshit from you right there.
Zerg is the race that maxxes around 14-15min with their cheap units and now Protoss with their way more expensive units shall max out just a minute later?
against a teching Protoss the supply counts are usually around 140-150 vs. 200
when zerg maxxes.
Voids take 1 Minute to build = 3 supply
Colossus take 75s to build = 6 supply
it would take atleast 20mins to max out such a deathball which gives Zerg enough time for a timing attack.
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On March 01 2011 18:40 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:
You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min
replay plz, or it didn't happen. Deathball ready at 15min is absolute bullshit from you right there. Zerg is the race that maxxes around 14-15min with their cheap units and now Protoss with their way more expensive units shall max out just a minute later? against a teching Protoss the supply counts are usually around 140-150 vs. 200 when zerg maxxes. Voids take 1 Minute to build = 3 supply Colossus take 75s to build = 6 supply it would take atleast 20mins to max out such a deathball which gives Zerg enough time for a timing attack.
Watch Ace vs IdrA right now. Your math is invalid. In real game everything is different.
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You know that starcraft2 time is different from real time? So if you watch video it already makes your timing invalid.
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On March 01 2011 12:11 ZergForHire wrote:
When a protoss engages in a battle, not only do they have superior army composition (assuming a senario where protoss has imortals + colosuss + HT and chargelots and sentries) and zerg having (corruptors, roach, hydras) , any high level protoss can trap zerg army with force fields, and zerg has no oppertunity to dodge or "Micro" out of the situation.
To be fair, the comparison is kinda bad. To be able to build a decent number of these units, protoss needs a large number of gas. You might say that Corruptors and Hydras are gas heavy, but Colo + Ht + Sentries (not even mentionning immortals) isn't something you can get a good number of on only 2 bases (not to mention that Templar tech takes forever to get). Seriously, in that situation you're comparing a much lower tech zerg army to an high tech army with Toss' most gas heavy units.
And sentries have pretty much no battle potential by themselves, bad FF can prevent your zealots from even doing anything. Colossus are gonna be colossus and HT will storm once or twice and be useless =\
Sure, I might say that, but yeah it might be a strong unit composition (I don't really know, never used it), I feel that this is an unfair comparison. Even without FF, this probably would crush the zerg army, to be honest.
The problem with FF is that you can't just remove it from the game without doing anything else. Gateway armies simply aren't strong by themselves.
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i think blizzard should stop bonus points for a new season and make a good elosystem, where players start with say 1500 points and gain and loose them like in chess.
also i'd like to see more stats like how many times did i win against terran/prot/zerg and on which maps am i strong and stuff like that. then the mappool could also be balanced better.
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On March 01 2011 09:28 Foreplay wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:54 PrinceXizor wrote:
If you think ultras are a bad late game unit you don't have the economy to support them. and once you have that economy you can win with just about any unit.
I disagree with this. As most of us have seen, if a zerg maxes out with the wrong unit composition he is going to get pulverised against the smaller but more cost efficient tech armies of the Protoss and Terran.
Having a huge economy as we have seen in the GSL and other pro games, does not always lead to a zerg victory. When zerg is losing units at a 5 to 1 ratio, maybe its time to put more thought into cost effectiveness (with units such as Ultras).
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Good grief no. Ultras are a paragon of cost innefficiency.
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Ultras in zvp is like exclusively making hydra in zvt
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On March 02 2011 00:08 Dragar wrote:
Good grief no. Ultras are a paragon of cost innefficiency.
+1 for use of the word Paragon.
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The problem with waiting for your cost effective ultra/queen/bl/infester army is that you will die when the toss's obs sees that you have no dudes.... Even if you ar going for ultra/bling/ling/roach you will need to hinder your supply to make ultras and one of 2 scenarios play out 1) By the time the cavern is ready you won't have a big enough eco to support making 5 ultras because you rushed to ultras before you were able to be operating on 4 bases. 2) Your army is sitting at 160-170 food for too long and the toss can potentially overpower you.
One of the stilly things about zerg is that we need to have an army comp the entire game (obviously) and for the most part that comp is going to be roach based which is extremely supply inefficient (and has less range then the entire non-zealot toss army). Saying that gateway units are bad is rather silly, you use gateway units to bolster your army the entire game. they add a lot of dps and tank a lot of damage while your colossi rape. In contrast roaches are mediocre and become terrible when trapped by forcefields and hydras aren't even viable once your opponent has colossi out. Out of all of this nonsense the colossi is the common denominator.... if you bolster the protoss army in other ways and nerf the colossi so it isn't completely better than everything else toss has (and completely better than everything Z has too) then toss will be more compelled to use other unit combos.
Overall I would have like to see 2 units changed
Corrupter-
+2 range
Void ray-
Massive unit
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On March 02 2011 00:24 ixi.genocide wrote:
The problem with waiting for your cost effective ultra/queen/bl/infester army is that you will die when the toss's obs sees that you have no dudes.... Even if you ar going for ultra/bling/ling/roach you will need to hinder your supply to make ultras and one of 2 scenarios play out 1) By the time the cavern is ready you won't have a big enough eco to support making 5 ultras because you rushed to ultras before you were able to be operating on 4 bases. 2) Your army is sitting at 160-170 food for too long and the toss can potentially overpower you.
One of the stilly things about zerg is that we need to have an army comp the entire game (obviously) and for the most part that comp is going to be roach based which is extremely supply inefficient (and has less range then the entire non-zealot toss army). Saying that gateway units are bad is rather silly, you use gateway units to bolster your army the entire game. they add a lot of dps and tank a lot of damage while your colossi rape. In contrast roaches are mediocre and become terrible when trapped by forcefields and hydras aren't even viable once your opponent has colossi out. Out of all of this nonsense the colossi is the common denominator.... if you bolster the protoss army in other ways and nerf the colossi so it isn't completely better than everything else toss has (and completely better than everything Z has too) then toss will be more compelled to use other unit combos.
Overall I would have like to see 2 units changed
Corrupter-
+2 range
Void ray-
Massive unit
+2 range would be rediciolously imbalanced, it would exactly nerf colossus AND high templars into the ground within 2 patch.
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On March 01 2011 18:23 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:On March 01 2011 12:44 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply. cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min, when zerg only starts his third and doesn't have his corruptors ready. Usually at that time, zerg tries to keep protoss in his base by using backdoors attacks and forcing FFs. Lately most Protoss and Terran progamers admit that zergs are weak, and they don't mean that its because of maps. I think stim nerf will help a lot in ZvT, but ZvP will be the same. Chronoboost research time also needs to be increased, so that Zergs had enough time to prepare. Overall unit stats are ok, except Ultralisks, which are completely useless now. If Zerg "only starts" this third by the 15thmin, then you are a) in Gold league or b)a pretty awful Zerg Most Protoss have their third by 15mins, Zerg should easily be looking for his 5th by then
You are hilarious.
If a zerg is trying to start his 5th by the 15 minute mark, the Protoss Deathball WILL roll over him easily. I get what yuo're trying to say, but please back it up with some facts.
Look at any pro replay, at best they're staurating a 4th by the 15 minute mark, assuming an extremely macro intensive game.
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how many patches will it take for blizz to stop nerfing T/ buffing Z
and yeah BC speed increase is a buff but it's not like we'll be seeing a lot of BC use anytime soon.
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The only change that has me uneasy is the Amulet removal though that's likely because I'm a Protoss player. There was probably something that needed to be done about the super late game PvT, I just worry that it might be a bit too harsh, but it's probably fine.
I think the real thing worth noting in my opinion is how brilliant the Fungal change is. I understand that there's something kinda lame about the stun duration being cut down because that was the unique thing about the spell in that it wasn't a primary damage dealer but I really think it changing to be a really threatening spell is amazing for the game. I think new Fungal will be precisely the answer to the Protoss deathball, realize that it does more dps than standing in a storm against Armored units now. Provided its not ridiculously easy to dodge the projectile or something, I think this will probably go a long way to fixing Zergs problems in both matchups. Hell, it'll probably make ZvZ more dynamic as Roaches are less effective!
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Just wanted to point out that both Zerg and Terran work off the tier system.
Barracks - Tier 1
Factory - Tier 2
Starport - Tier 3
Every additional building needed is +.5. So a ghost would be 1.5, thors would be 2.5, etc.
Of course, The tier system in SC2 does not actual strength of the unit.
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EPT
