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On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent.
You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue.
and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion.
Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame.
Edit:
on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over.
the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already.
Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough.
Flame on-.-
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On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:
You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue.
and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion.
Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame.
Edit:
on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over.
the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already.
Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough.
Flame on-.-
Well said.
I would like to add that i find it funny that Terrans say that a T3 unit shouldnt be able to stop their T1 drop in late game
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On March 01 2011 10:42 Aequos wrote:
I'm not sure if you realize this, but HT are some of the units you pretty much have to leave for dead when you retreat. Both Terran and Zerg units tend to be faster than gateway units, and HT are so slow that pretty much anything could catch them. If they were used in PvP, I could use sentries to chase them down. As such, being EMPed and losing my energy on HTs means that I will lose those HT if I run, whether I just attempt to flee or morph them to Archons in an attempt to buy time for the rest of my army. If you only hit 2 templar, you've already payed back the gas cost of the ghosts used to EMP.
Assuming I throw forward a single HT to storm the Terran army, like was suggested, the damage is still not permanent. Like an EMP on the Protoss army, none of the damage will last beyond repair time or auto-heal time. Does it drain energy/funds? Yes, but hitting one of my HTs with the same move with a ghost renders it useless.
I'm not saying that its impossible to retreat, its just much, much more difficult than it seems.
Like TheTenthDoc wrote, this tension also exists with the terran. It is this tension that makes for exciting TvP mid-lategames. This dance of the ghosts vs templars requires a lot of patience and a lot of planning and though behind engagements (unless you want to get destroyed). Your escape plan is just as important ( or more important ) as your plan of how to engage.
However the fact that storm can actually kill whilst EMP only gets rid of shields gives HT an ability to clutch loosing battles. This is where all of the amulet rage originates from. Storms can CLUTCH towards the end of a battle. If protos is being pushed and his army is getting destroyed, he can warp in a bunch of HT towards the end of the fight and clean things up. A terran bioball which is getting slaughtered cant just bring in some ghosts towards the end of the battle to dramatically swing the tide of the battle. By that time the protos shields are low/down anyway so the EMP becomes useless.
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On March 01 2011 11:00 PPTouch wrote:
medivacs are t2 tanks are t2 bcs are t3 thors are t3
that post shows perfectly why trying to count in tiers doesn't work...
You need another building on top of the factory so how can medivacs be tier 2 but thors be tier 3? If Thors are tier 3 what are battlecruisers who need another building on top of the starport?
On the same token do colossi and templar share a tier even if every protoss and his dog builds a robo anyway just so he can get observers?
Frankly if you want to class units as tier 1 etc. the only unit where we will agree are zealots, marines and zerglings. Everything else already needs a 2nd building/addon.
The only race where you can divide the units in 3 tiers is Zerg, due to their building structure. The other two races can skip around the techtree once the obligatory 2 buildings are finished (Gateway/core for toss and Barracks/factory for terran).
Leaving aside the Tier discussion you seem to miss the point of our "complaint". In a typical endgame bioball unit mix i will have: 10 medivacs, 10 vikings (if my opponent is building colossi), 2 Ghosts (if he is not building templar as far as i can see, if he is that number goes up to "however many i can afford") and at least 1 raven to protect against surprise DTs. Does that army sound like a Tier 1 mix?
Curious question since quite a few people are arguing here that Terran should stop relying on bio and switch to mech, does that mean that you will stop building gateway units as soon as you build your robo?
(edit) to the braintrust who says that Zealots melt without their shields could i ask against what units? Because they still have more life and armor than the Terran mineral sink while dealing a similar amount of damage if they can actually get in range (which lategame isn't that hard). Yes without shields they loose some hitpoints, but guess what in a Storm terran units die (and our primary dps unit actually dies VERY fast in a storm).
Yes you will certainly loose a lot of zealots in an endgame full army confrontation, but isn't that kind of the point of them? To charge in front of your army and soak up lots of hits while the colossi/templar/voidrays deal damage? And do you think it is different for the other side?
(2nd edit) Terran units don't heal without medivacs whose energy is finite (and they cost a ton of gas btw). repair on the other hand costs money. I am curious why you think a Templar without energy is worthless, he might be worthless for a limited amount of time, but if you can bring him back home alive he will certainly have enough energy by the time the next big battle comes around.
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Another terran nerf ><, GSL code S terrans are kinda getting owned. Stim research time, i can understand (but they made it way too long), but why the bunker...
Protoss definitely has advantage over terran and as for zerg, they need to play like July Zerg; slower fast expand and do not build that many drones. Just fill the gas fast and pump mutalisk after your baneling aggression. He totally owned MVP in code S lol, and two times.
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Is it just me or sentry force fields are kind of fundamentally broken.
Idra and Artosis talked about certain aspects of the game is fundamentally broken, meaning that the opponent cant really do much to counter or beat whatever the opponent is doing which is entitled to be "broken".
I consider myself a pretty high tier zerg, with 3000+ points on master. So i pretty much played various range of protoss from both high diamond to 3500+ protoss.
And although I am not whining about the zerg's race in general, i feel like forcefield breaks the game.
When a protoss engages in a battle, not only do they have superior army composition (assuming a senario where protoss has imortals + colosuss + HT and chargelots and sentries) and zerg having (corruptors, roach, hydras) , any high level protoss can trap zerg army with force fields, and zerg has no oppertunity to dodge or "Micro" out of the situation. This is one of the reason why 4 warpgate timiming or 6 warpgate timing push is so deadly. Its not the sheer unit number that he produces, its the ability for protoss to just constantly cheap the zerg unit without much micro potential for zerg to win. If i played protoss, I would be confident enough to engage in a battle with zerg who has a slight advantage in army but still come out on top with well forcefields. Why?
Because zerg has no real way to get over this barrier.
Roach burrow + escaping doesn't work very well, and this is just a way of retreating, not overcoming it. Making it that thing that we hated in school. we see a bully? we run away.
I run away when i see force fields. and I strongly think PvZ should not be dependt on Protoss messing up his force field placements, just because hes having a bad game.
But rather an equal opppertunity for both and protoss to come out on top depending on how they micro. In Conclusion. I think a well ranked protoss player is given too much power and advantage with having force field, and this will inevitably cause flaw in pvz match up as there are no micro potential for zerg but only to protosss, to come out on top.
Hope you guys see a point im trying to emphasis here.
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Yea PvZ is just hard on zerg. oGsMC showed how to blink and psy storm. It is easier than force fielding... Or like the blink stalker rush against Zerg I saw today in the Code A....Some builds seem to have no counter... The only way for a zerg to win is either early aggression with roaches/hydras, or late game with good broodlord and fungal growth micro....
The 6 gate sentries seem to own terrans and zerg, if not , they follow up with robo tech to put the nail in the coffin.
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On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent.
roaches cost twice less than a stalker yet completely annihilate stalker in larger numbers on same upgrades
mutas probably the best harrassing unit in the game - hell to deal with as a toss (counter: kill the zerg before he gets mutas - really?)
hydras cost less than a stalker yet kill gateway units - thats not cost effective?
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On March 01 2011 12:17 Ratel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. roaches cost twice less than a stalker yet completely annihilate stalker in larger numbers on same upgrades mutas probably the best harrassing unit in the game - hell to deal with as a toss (counter: kill the zerg before he gets mutas - really?) hydras cost less than a stalker yet kill gateway units - thats not cost effective?
Not when the protoss throw some force fields in....and blink stalkers counter mutalisks pretty well, and so do phoenix (which they get almost every pvz)
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On March 01 2011 12:21 thesums wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 12:17 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. roaches cost twice less than a stalker yet completely annihilate stalker in larger numbers on same upgrades mutas probably the best harrassing unit in the game - hell to deal with as a toss (counter: kill the zerg before he gets mutas - really?) hydras cost less than a stalker yet kill gateway units - thats not cost effective? Not when the protoss throw some force fields in....and blink stalkers counter mutalisks pretty well, and so do phoenix (which they get almost every pvz)
if you scout mutas when they are already on the field you are too late to start phenoix production
you need to preemptively rush for stargate without scouting to counter mutas with pheonixes
also blink stalkers work in small numbers not in larger numbers (splash damage)
force field are good - pretty much the only factor of survival of the toss
its like saying oh but you have inject larva
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Hopefully this patch resets ladder so i can start fresh with zerg
heres to hoping
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I am not so sure about mutalisk against protoss...protoss do not seem to get many zealots early game, meaning the all have sentries and stalkers that are decent against mutalisks. Whats more is protoss like to get starports earlier than the spire too. I have seen it work, but as an end game...but it is not easy at all..
Just curious, in game 3 of TSL_Killer and oGsjookTo (for those that follow code A), how can zerg stop blink stalker rush. You cannot scout it due to block up and as long as you blink stalker micro....it is so OP. Killer won without losing a single stalker I believe... I think terran wont do much better
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.-
At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition. The fact that the zerg needs to remax is exactly because their units are cost inefficient. If they weren't cost inefficient, there wouldn't be enough of the deathball leftover to actually threaten the Zerg player. Except that is never the case unless the Zerg somehow catches his opponent in a really awful position.
Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, it quickly tips back towards the Protoss in terms of cost effectiveness. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply.
I will concede that roaches beat the shit out of all gateway units at equal cost/equal tech, but only if the fight occurs on a completely open field.
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On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply.
cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit
you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo
if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss
from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units
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On March 01 2011 12:26 arb wrote:
Hopefully this patch resets ladder so i can start fresh with zerg
heres to hoping
I doubt it will, How ever it will lock the leagues, so you can't move up or down (gold to plat eg.) only move in ranks inside your league.
That should be, according the patch notes, a pre season thing / aka pre ladder reset.
So patch 1.3 will be the last step before a ladder reset shortly after.
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On March 01 2011 12:44 Ratel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply. cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units
You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min, when zerg only starts his third and doesn't have his corruptors ready. Usually at that time, zerg tries to keep protoss in his base by using backdoors attacks and forcing FFs.
Lately most Protoss and Terran progamers admit that zergs are weak, and they don't mean that its because of maps.
I think stim nerf will help a lot in ZvT, but ZvP will be the same. Chronoboost research time also needs to be increased, so that Zergs had enough time to prepare.
Overall unit stats are ok, except Ultralisks, which are completely useless now.
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I have thought about these changes quite alot in the last few days, sadly I didn't have the oppertunity to test them, since I only got an european account. Anyway, obviously I have an opinion on the Kheydarin Amulet change I'd like to share.
First said: My account says I'm primarily a random player, but I oftenly play a particular race when I'm in the mood for it. And I have to admit that I played mostly Protoss in the last weeks so I maybe a little bit biased.
Imo there are two different situations that have to be regarded, talking about the upgrade
1: The situation of large battles: A huge Protoss Ball (some temps, stalkers, sentrys, immortals, lots of zealots probably for the overmins and maybe even some collossi) against the huge terran bioball (marine/marauder/medivac, some ghosts, when there are collossi some vikings, maybe a raven). In this case I completely agree that the amulet is kind of op. It should be a micro battle between the temps and the ghosts. If the ghosts hit most of the temps before they can get of 2many good storms, the terran bioball will just annihalate the Protoss Ball. If the temps can get of more than 2 or 3 good storms, the bioball is just dead. Thats all right. Because of the ready to storm warped in temps it doesnt go that way - after being emp'd P can just warp in fresh temps and storm with them or terran has to hit them with emp again. Scratching Kheydarin here seems perfectly fine, also if i tend to say that feedback should outrange emp when the upgrades scratched.
2. Drops: Protoss just cant cope with the extreme power of multiprompt terran drops. 1-2 full medivac (marine/marauder) can kill key buildings and/or probes ridicolously fast. Warped in Units cant hold them because in small numbers sentries are no help and stalkers/zealots just suck in comparism. And its just impossible to secure every expansion and the main with a (better 2) temps in the lategame. That would be just 10 Temps missing in ur main army. Thats way too much. And temps alone dont do it, u will need some stalker/zealot support.
Of course one may say, that if the T does multiprompt drops and the P doesnt the T deserves the win, but thats simply not true for two reasons:
1) T has the medivacs anyway, gettin several warp-prisms would be quite an investment (not mineral wise but time wise).
2) and more importantly: There is just nothing P can drop as effectively as a bioball. Yeah, temps can harass mineral lines quite well, immortals can snipe buildings quite fast. But both this units can only do one thing (and not even really better than pure marine), but they are also way more expensive (gas-wise) and compared to stimmed marines terribly slow.
(Furthermore in late-game terran should have the option of blue flame hellions, which are equally strong to temps in probe-killing).
Like so oftenly I think the problem is not the upgrade, its the maps. On this small maps P can easily attack with its big ball and have a pylon around the corner. T just cant distract P enough to evade the big battle.
On larger maps he can harrass with drops and even run around the p-ball if there are several paths evading the big clash of armies and maybe add some tanks into his mix before a great battle finally occurs and outmacro p thanks to godd harassment. And well executed drops are still very cost-effective for T.
This would also easily fix the stim-problem (also if I did not really see a problem there).
Whenever a terran beats me as a protoss in the end game it is because of cute drops and small skirmishes with small armies that he forces, where a storm is not really effective and neither are the other warpgate units. And yeah, it does happen even on my level of play.
Finally I ask u to forgive me any mistakes I made writing this. English is not my native language, but I hope most of my writing is correct 
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I think archon toilet was something that was really cool, I have to admit it made me think about playing protoss just because of how baller it is. But honestly a strategy that is completely unstoppable shouldn't exist if they were going to nerf the archon toilet they should've made vortex cast take a littler longer showing the area its about to vortex kind of like a nuke for like 1.5-2 seconds then going off so it gives the enemy time to actually spread their units.
Also the amulet upgrade although was seriously abused so much was kind of harsh. I mean yes warping in and instant storming all day, everyday is very imba it made pvt collosi a less motivated only tech. I think to really nerf ht is to nerf the warp in instant storm capability by either 1.) all ht warped in do not get the amulet upgrade energy or 2.) HT can not be warped in and have to be built by a gateway
I mean honestly warping the warping in ht aspect was what really made it imba.
The last few things I want to point out are toss are complaining about how they get the nerf hammer everytime when obviously terran is the race that has been getting the most useless nerf hammers of all time. I mean what was the logic of bunker to 40 seconds and stim upgrade increase other than not give terran timing attacks and penalize reaction time on bunkers. They really want toss to just stick to 4 gate or collosi all day everyday..
No viking flower = big fail I am sure no sc2 player is going to let this fly
Fungal growth = not sure how but it seems like they are trying to make it more of a damage ability which is not a nerf or a buff but seems like they want infestor to be the defiler with 4 second ensare
If this stuff flies I am pretty sure I will prefer to go late game vs toss because bc can fly a bit faster wheewwwww. Gonna make me some BC
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On March 01 2011 12:11 thesums wrote:
Another terran nerf ><, GSL code S terrans are kinda getting owned. Stim research time, i can understand (but they made it way too long), but why the bunker...
Protoss definitely has advantage over terran and as for zerg, they need to play like July Zerg; slower fast expand and do not build that many drones. Just fill the gas fast and pump mutalisk after your baneling aggression. He totally owned MVP in code S lol, and two times.
July did not own mvp at all. MVP 100% owned himself. Those games were absolutely atrocious.
I love the changes on the patch. Improved infestor will be great. I love the newly popular ling/infestor builds that are popular right now against terran. Might be decent against toss next patch too.
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On March 01 2011 14:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 12:44 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 12:38 Ksi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2011 11:22 Luvz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:03 Ksi wrote:On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great. i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. You serious dude? u do realise the issue with the deathball is that its soooo much invested in it. and that Zerg can't throw the same cost at the Protoss or even come close to it. the problem with it isnt the units. its the fact that Zerg has no chance to REsupply fast enugh. u see Zergs with 4-5k Minerals and 3k Gas, just waiting for the deathball push and hope to god the 2nd resupply of 200/200 is there in time for him attacking u. PRotoss has No minerals to spend, once that deathball is dead, the PRotoss is dead. The problem has never been the units themselves. its the Map design thats to small or something along those lines. a 200/200 protoss is worth as much as 400-450+ units from the Zerg in cost. so dont say Roaches/hydras or mutas arent cost effective, they are. ur just not able to get em out fast enugh for the Push that will come eventually. Protoss is the most expensive race to play. but also has Sick good Support units. Zerg is cheap to play but also relies on resupplying their army all the time <- where this game currently is failing. Zerg units are deff cost effective vs Protoss Early/Midd/Lategame. its not a GAme balance issue. its a map balance issue. and boom onwards to the Ghost descussion. Have nothing to add seeing as i think its redicilous and i dont belive itl go trough. EMP has stoppd Templar's seince the beta. it can do 10k dmg to a protoss army with a decent emp, for a storm to do that amount of dmg u have to sit in it the whole duration. Emp also has Aoe radius of +2, meaning it has About 2 more range then Feedback. Any Terran not able to EMP a Incomming templar isnt doing a good enugh job of controlling his army. Removeing the amulet will totally destroy this matchup and protoss will become EVEN MORE predictable then they already are in this matchup. Without support and that easy of a counter for Terran itl be Impossible for a Protoss to win with a tech route that Gimmicky Lategame or even Middgame. Edit: on a sidenote to someone stateing above that Zealots are good vs terran. have u seen Zealots without shields? they vaporize like water. 150/150 for a unit that can do that much dmg. and your complainging about a uinit that does half or even less then half of the dmg that the ghost can. eventho u can warp em in. their still a support unit to the most gas heavy race 50/150 is sick amounts in lategame to spend in lategame when their not even a SURE thing vs a Terran that can use his ghosts correctly. even a Secound away from ur army screen and the game can be over. the Tech route is expensive aswell and is Gimmicky as hell already. Personally i belive the Amulet change wont go trough. Flame on-.- At what point in your paragraph did you ever address the cost effectiveness of zerg? Name me one zerg composition that can cost effectively beat a late game terran or protoss army composition? Roach hydra is cost effective vs pure gateway units, but once you add colossus and/or good forcefields into the mix, the cost effectiveness of the zerg army is suddenly reduced to practically nothing. Zerg needs to spend over twice as much gas in corruptors just to kill half the gas cost worth of colossus in time before they vaporize their ground army. Lets not even go into how, once the colossus are dead, your corruptors can, at their very best, boost the damage towards ONE unit by 20%, all while taking up precious supply. cost effectiveness is also shown in the time invested into a certain unit you can make a ton of corruptors from 1 hatchery in a short period of time while a protoss can produce 1 extremely expensive unit from per 1 robo if a toss goes heavy collosai off 1-2 bases he wont have any ground army which will lead to a loss from a skilled zerg that will abuse the lack of supporting units You are completely wrong. Protoss chronoboost mechanic allows them to saturate two base very fast, and they have their death ball ready around 15th min, when zerg only starts his third and doesn't have his corruptors ready. Usually at that time, zerg tries to keep protoss in his base by using backdoors attacks and forcing FFs. Lately most Protoss and Terran progamers admit that zergs are weak, and they don't mean that its because of maps. I think stim nerf will help a lot in ZvT, but ZvP will be the same. Chronoboost research time also needs to be increased, so that Zergs had enough time to prepare. Overall unit stats are ok, except Ultralisks, which are completely useless now.
You are right about the easy way protoss sature their expands, but sorry you don't take your third at 15 but more like 10 (even before), and no you already have corruptors but you don't make them unless you have some scouting information on the number of colossi. So most of zerg player wait the last time to pump out corruptors, which is dangerous in many situation and can lead to meaningless defeat (like hello i pwned you but i made too much corruptors/too much roach/not enough corruptors and i lost when you got your 5 colossi lolmao).
ZvP is just hard (not imbalanced) and it is not because of the units, but because zerg need to constantly scout, react instantly with an almost perfect army composition, with almost no room for failure or mistakes (overmaking or undermaking), while protoss can just 2 base turtlelol with canon and forcefield and then come at you with 5 colossi and a stalker ball a+click and still win. Strategy is nowhere to be found in the foul turtletoss play nowadays.
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EPT
