EPTPatch 1.3 on PTR - Page 143
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dryice135
Australia35 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On March 01 2011 05:17 eloist wrote: It might just be me sucking but ghosts never completely negate templars in my games. I think people are very much overly simplifying this dynamic here. Most always, the Protoss player will get at least 1-2 good storms off. A well placed EMP can remove further storms from those templars but by not EMPing the rest of the army, you haven't really dealt any damage yet while the storms did. And then of course more templars can be warped in close by to storm again while you might already be out of EMPs. Think with me. When the protoss is going to templar / has templar, most of the times he won't have many colossus, which are the main damage dealers to bio. And why: if its early - mid game, he can't support those 2 heavy gas units, without having to sacrifice either by a lot, if it's late game and is planning on going templar tech, he won't go 2 robo, but then again 1 robo he could have some, if they survive to the vikings on earlier confrontations. Still, at late game, massive numbers of vikings just overwhelm colossus, and toss needs phoenixs, and going with this units composition, he won't have much gas to spend on HT tech. If he doesn't have phoenixs, late game number of vikings will sweep through 1 robo number of colossus pretty easily. Now, with few or no colossus, gateway units won't be good damage dealers. As you know, stalkers and sentries are 2 of the units with worst dps in the game. Zealot is better, but since it's melee, and all T units are ranged and can easily kite, even with charge, a big part of them will die before they do anything. So the main damage dealer will be storms. Now i ask you how do you think it's fair when you say "Most always, the Protoss player will get at least 1-2 good storms off" as if it was a bad thing. I ask you then, how would the toss kill your army? Some people should think outside the box, and see things for the other race's perspective, not only their own. Even if you root for your race, you should root for a balanced game above all, that everyone can enjoy. If the game is balanced, more people will play and watch, and that can only be better for you as well. | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:44 Apolo wrote: Think with me. When the protoss is going to templar / has templar, most of the times he won't have many colossus, which are the main damage dealers to bio. And why: if its early - mid game, he can't support those 2 heavy gas units, without having to sacrifice either by a lot, if it's late game and his planning on going templar tech, won't go 2 robo, so he won't have that many either, if any, if they survive to the vikings on earlier confrontations. Now, with few or no colossus, gateway units won't be good damage dealers. As you know, stalkers and sentries are 2 of the units with worst dps in the game. Zealot is better, but since it's melee, and all T units are ranged and can easily kite, even with charge, a big part of them will die before they do anything. So the main damage dealer will be storms. Now i ask you how do you think it's fair when you say "Most always, the Protoss player will get at least 1-2 good storms off" as if it was a bad thing. I ask you then, how would the toss kill your army? Some people should think outside the box, and see things for the other race's perspective, not only their own. Even if you root for your race, you should root for a balanced game above all, that everyone can enjoy. If the game is balanced, more people will play and watch, and that can only be better for you as well. Then, please, take your own advice. Your examples of gateway units being bad damage unit dealers are assuming a complete vacuum. Yes, stalkers and sentries don't do much DPS. Yes, zealots can be kited (even with charge!). Yes, ht may only get one or two storms off. But, if you put it all together in an actual game. The protoss will use forcefields to block the bio so zealots CAN hit and storms WILL do damage since the bio can't retreat. Stalkers can pick off any other units as well. You're acting like gateway units are TERRIBLE vs bio, which as players like MC have shown, is clearly not the case. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6214 Posts
For the situation you just described, where a toss gets successful storms off after FFing in a Terran army, the toss has to: > Select sentries > place~5 FFs > select templar > drop ~3 storms ...before the terran: > Selects ghosts > fires ~3 emps Added to that, EMP has a much longer range, which means you can start that before we can start to FF. I'm NOT saying toss requires more micro or anything stupid like that. What I am saying is that in the specific situation you described, there are a lot more things we have to do in a shorter period of time, because your opening action has a good shot at disabling ours. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:51 Jimmeh wrote: Then, please, take your own advice. Your examples of gateway units being bad damage unit dealers are assuming a complete vacuum. Yes, stalkers and sentries don't do much DPS. Yes, zealots can be kited (even with charge!). Yes, ht may only get one or two storms off. But, if you put it all together in an actual game. The protoss will use forcefields to block the bio so zealots CAN hit and storms WILL do damage since the bio can't retreat. Stalkers can pick off any other units as well. You're acting like gateway units are TERRIBLE vs bio, which as players like MC have shown, is clearly not the case. What you're talking about MC is totally different. MC is the attacking, and he does so in very specific situations where he can use FF to their full power. The situation i'm talking is about lategame, with HT involved, and has nothing to do about MC use of gateway units in 6 gate timing pushes to punish a FEing terran. Late game, you won't see terrans going around with their big armies in small choke points where they can easily be forcefielded. That's a game costing mistake, and they know that. And the toss using FF in open spaces will make the units "trapped" go to the sides, while the ones at the back kill the melee zealots running after them. Basically all units are still shooting except the ones that are running to the sides to run away from the zealots. In a way, it's even better, because not all army has to kite. They will take some damage from the storm, if the toss does it right and predicts where he will run to. But that's how it should be. The way you're putting is not practical and would be perfect for toss if it happened, but it doesn't. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong744 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:42 dryice135 wrote: To all the people whinging about ghosts not getting a nerf need to think about the battle strengh of storm vs the battle strengh of emp. A few well placed storms can literally KILL an entire bio army completely. EMP can NOT kill a protos army, the maximum it can do is remove the entire army's shield which is vastly different to actually killing off the whole army Eh, not really a good argument - if you land good EMP's on a toss army that is a gateway heavy mix w/templars, with no energy for forcefields/storms, the Toss is as good as dead if they have no amulet for reinforcements. This goes back to the main point most Toss players are unhappy with, its that this amulet removal pretty much restricts them to the collosus techpath, using the same units doing the same thing over and over again can just get very stale very quickly. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6518 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:51 Jimmeh wrote: Then, please, take your own advice. Your examples of gateway units being bad damage unit dealers are assuming a complete vacuum. Yes, stalkers and sentries don't do much DPS. Yes, zealots can be kited (even with charge!). Yes, ht may only get one or two storms off. But, if you put it all together in an actual game. The protoss will use forcefields to block the bio so zealots CAN hit and storms WILL do damage since the bio can't retreat. Stalkers can pick off any other units as well. You're acting like gateway units are TERRIBLE vs bio, which as players like MC have shown, is clearly not the case. So to sum up your post... Protoss requires, pro gamer micro or tier three units to beat tier 1 a move bio ball.... Yea that seems fair.... I understand Terran bio has to be strong due to lack of actual late game units. but still I mean when tier 3 units can be beaten by a moved tier 1-2 units something isn't right... As for the ghosts not completely negating templar.. well with a well placed emp they can, but even if they couldn't look at the difference of the two and what they cost(Both mineral/gas and time required) Tier three extremely gas heavy, require two long upgrades to be effective unit really shouldn't be that easily countered... I know I'm biased as a protoss player, but come on is it that hard to see why Toss players are upset? | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:04 Necro)Phagist( wrote: So to sum up your post... Protoss requires, pro gamer micro or tier three units to beat tier 1 a move bio ball.... Yea that seems fair.... I understand Terran bio has to be strong due to lack of actual late game units. but still I mean when tier 3 units can be beaten by a moved tier 1-2 units something isn't right... As for the ghosts not completely negating templar.. well with a well placed emp they can, but even if they couldn't look at the difference of the two and what they cost(Both mineral/gas and time required) Tier three extremely gas heavy, require two long upgrades to be effective unit really shouldn't be that easily countered... I know I'm biased as a protoss player, but come on is it that hard to see why Toss players are upset? Not quite, if forcefields command a necessity for pro gamer micro, I've been losing so many matches to legit pros. | ||
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dryice135
Australia35 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:02 Zealot Lord wrote: Eh, not really a good argument - if you land good EMP's on a toss army that is a gateway heavy mix w/templars, with no energy for forcefields/storms, the Toss is as good as dead if they have no amulet for reinforcements. This goes back to the main point most Toss players are unhappy with, its that this amulet removal pretty much restricts them to the collosus techpath, using the same units doing the same thing over and over again can just get very stale very quickly. An army without shields is far more useful than a dead army. Why? because a shieldless army can retreat whilst a dead army cannot retreat. If you are a strong player then you will realise that with a HT based army you need to be careful in how you poke around the map and how you engage in battles. If you overcommit to a battle and the terran pulls off some huge EMP's then yes you are dead. Which is why with a HT based army you should not overcommit to battles and always think about your retreat options if you do take an early EMP to the heart of your forces. Watch some high level games, there will be COUNTLESS times where you will see a HT poke forward and storm and then the toss retreats his forces, similarly, the terran pokes forward and EMPs and pulls back if it wasn't a good shot. Your argument that protos is as good as dead if they take an EMP is not very well supported. Its all about how you engage in the battle and how you control your army. If you want to overcommit and 1 A, 2 A after you get hit by EMPs then yes you are dead but that was your own fault... | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:04 Necro)Phagist( wrote: So to sum up your post... Protoss requires, pro gamer micro or tier three units to beat tier 1 a move bio ball.... Yea that seems fair.... I understand Terran bio has to be strong due to lack of actual late game units. but still I mean when tier 3 units can be beaten by a moved tier 1-2 units something isn't right... As for the ghosts not completely negating templar.. well with a well placed emp they can, but even if they couldn't look at the difference of the two and what they cost(Both mineral/gas and time required) Tier three extremely gas heavy, require two long upgrades to be effective unit really shouldn't be that easily countered... I know I'm biased as a protoss player, but come on is it that hard to see why Toss players are upset? That "tier 1" bioball presumably has medivacs (a tier 3 unit unless I'm mistaken) and ghosts (a 1.5/maybe 2 unit that sucks a massive amount of gas). Without those two essential components a straight up Marine/Marauder ball is about equal to straight up Protoss gateway builds if upgrades are equal and the P plays smart baiting stims and force fielding appropriately. When I played P I used to think T was just a-moving tier 1 too, but playing the actual race shows how critical those 'vacs and ghosts can be. The medivacs are a significant time and gas investment and ghosts take a lot of attention. Edit: Okay, I'll amend medivacs to tier 2.5. Still, it's not a pure tier 1 bioball. | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
ghosts are tier 2 ht are t3 colo are t3 i honestly i agree that the +25 is wrong but COMPLETELY removing it is absurd. it should give +20 starting energy so they cant INSTANTLY storm but theyre not useless fo 50 ingame seconds | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:31 dryice135 wrote: An army without shields is far more useful than a dead army. Why? because a shieldless army can retreat whilst a dead army cannot retreat. If you are a strong player then you will realise that with a HT based army you need to be careful in how you poke around the map and how you engage in battles. If you overcommit to a battle and the terran pulls off some huge EMP's then yes you are dead. Which is why with a HT based army you should not overcommit to battles and always think about your retreat options if you do take an early EMP to the heart of your forces. Watch some high level games, there will be COUNTLESS times where you will see a HT poke forward and storm and then the toss retreats his forces, similarly, the terran pokes forward and EMPs and pulls back if it wasn't a good shot. Your argument that protos is as good as dead if they take an EMP is not very well supported. Its all about how you engage in the battle and how you control your army. If you want to overcommit and 1 A, 2 A after you get hit by EMPs then yes you are dead but that was your own fault... I'm not sure if you realize this, but HT are some of the units you pretty much have to leave for dead when you retreat. Both Terran and Zerg units tend to be faster than gateway units, and HT are so slow that pretty much anything could catch them. If they were used in PvP, I could use sentries to chase them down. As such, being EMPed and losing my energy on HTs means that I will lose those HT if I run, whether I just attempt to flee or morph them to Archons in an attempt to buy time for the rest of my army. If you only hit 2 templar, you've already payed back the gas cost of the ghosts used to EMP. Assuming I throw forward a single HT to storm the Terran army, like was suggested, the damage is still not permanent. Like an EMP on the Protoss army, none of the damage will last beyond repair time or auto-heal time. Does it drain energy/funds? Yes, but hitting one of my HTs with the same move with a ghost renders it useless. I'm not saying that its impossible to retreat, its just much, much more difficult than it seems. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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diLLa
Netherlands247 Posts
I'm a protoss myself, and although i forsee major problems dealing with endgame stuff i guess ill just have to wait and experience it myself before actually whining about it. | ||
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intOx_HH
United States30 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:42 Aequos wrote: I'm not sure if you realize this, but HT are some of the units you pretty much have to leave for dead when you retreat. Both Terran and Zerg units tend to be faster than gateway units, and HT are so slow that pretty much anything could catch them. If they were used in PvP, I could use sentries to chase them down. As such, being EMPed and losing my energy on HTs means that I will lose those HT if I run, whether I just attempt to flee or morph them to Archons in an attempt to buy time for the rest of my army. If you only hit 2 templar, you've already payed back the gas cost of the ghosts used to EMP. Assuming I throw forward a single HT to storm the Terran army, like was suggested, the damage is still not permanent. Like an EMP on the Protoss army, none of the damage will last beyond repair time or auto-heal time. Does it drain energy/funds? Yes, but hitting one of my HTs with the same move with a ghost renders it useless. I'm not saying that its impossible to retreat, its just much, much more difficult than it seems. This tension also exists for the T unless I'm mistaken. Ghosts don't move as fast as a stimmed bioball and are useless after a feedback except for hurting zealots, and even then they aren't great. Feedback has a decent shot at killing on the ghost altogether. Personally I think it leads to an interesting back-and-forth dynamic between the two armies from the perspective of an ex-P player. On March 01 2011 10:46 diLLa wrote: medivac tier 3? thats a good one. I'm a protoss myself, and although i forsee major problems dealing with endgame stuff i guess ill just have to wait and experience it myself before actually whining about it. If Medivacs are tier 2, what those units you build from the factory? Tier 1.5? | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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PPTouch
99 Posts
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Ksi
357 Posts
On March 01 2011 09:20 Ratel wrote: i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile p.s. assembly Did you just seriously say that zerg units were cost effective? Maybe early game vs protoss with roaches, but tell me that next time you watch a zerg on 4 or 5 bases lose to a 2/3 base terran/protoss deathball when they throw 4x as many resources worth of units at it and not even make a dent. | ||
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jgelling
55 Posts
On March 01 2011 10:44 Doodsmack wrote: I can't wait until the nerf goes through and people are still using HTs, so all the exaggerations on here can be proven wrong. Do you really think that comment's helpful to the discussion? Anyhow, if you believe an argument on here incorrect, why not post a replay to prove it? | ||
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