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On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point.
Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken.
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On March 01 2011 07:20 Offhand wrote:
The bunker doesn't destroy your marines. They're perfectly capable of leaving the bunker and doing other things, and that's exactly what you should do when you push out.
That being said, I have freaking clue why the bunker build time is such a critical balance issue for blizzard.
thank you captain obvious.
The issue with bunkers needing food (or not) usually arises when you approach max (or are actually at max). As a protoss or a zerg you can start to build cannons or spine crawlers to defend your expansions against harass at that stage of the game.
As a Terran you can only build a PF and turrets. Granted the PF is a very strong defensive building so i am not complaining about it, but it doesn't really cover your expansions versus harassment does it? (If you think it does might i recommend units with a ranged attack and the hold position command.)
Personally i'd give up the Planetary Fortress for the ability to build autoturrets with an SCV, but that would be a major change in game mechanics so i doubt we'll ever see anything like that.
The reason why bunker buildtimes are a major factor is obviously their offensive role not their defensive. Almost every form of static defense has to be started in advance (well in advance actually) to be able to do their job against an attack. In the time between scouting a push and it arriving at your door you can reposition a finished spinecrawler, but you certainly won't have time to build a new one.
Bunkers? Well with the old buildtimes sometimes you managed to finish them in time, but frankly more often than not you had a 2/3 finished bunker when they showed up.
For offensive purposes on the other hand (most especielly the classic siegetank/bunker push) the buildtime is a major factor. If you are trying to leapfrog your way into the protoss main with 4 bunkers (meaning moving them 2 and 2) the difference 5s buildtime makes might slow your push down by nearly a minute.
In the early game bunkerrush the Zerg players could basically gg or kiss goodbye to their fast expansion if one of the 2 bunkers at the ramp finished.
Frankly together with the stim timing change (personally i'd have changed the cost not the timing) those were also well deserved nerfs to the Terran race. The early game rushs were VERY strong compared to the risk you took to get them (for comparison look at Julyzergs baneling bust build. He cuts both queens and a ton of drones for a rush. A Terran bunkerrush can still hit the cancel button and recoup almost everything, usually the only things he looses are around 200minerals worth of units/cancel costs. a 3rax stim push doesn't cost you much if it fails except for a delayed expansion, now with this version your expansion will be even slower therefor the rush becomes riskier (and the other side has more time to prepare for it).
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On March 01 2011 08:38 oxxo wrote:
At least compared to Broodlord/Ultras and Carriers/Colossus. Maybe the move speed buff will make BCs usable, but we'll have to see.
Carriers don't belong there, seeing as they are as useless as BCs right now.
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On March 01 2011 08:38 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:09 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 07:49 p1cKLes wrote:On March 01 2011 04:32 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2011 04:30 p1cKLes wrote:
So it seems that most people agree on two things.
1. Protoss and Zerg’s late game is very strong and difficult to deal with for Terran.
2. Terran’s early game is strong and is difficult for Protoss and Zerg (zerg more so) to deal with.
And in my mind, the balance changes don’t really address either one of these points.
Well, removal of the Amulet upgrade nerfs Protoss late game. Increasing Stim Pack research time nerfs Terran early game. I’m not sure I agree with this in the sense that these changes really play that big of a part in Terrans early game or Protoss/Zerg’s late game. Protoss and Zerg have a very strong late game. Terran has a weak late game, but a very strong early game. So it seems to me the culprit isn’t Protoss or Zerg, it is Terran. So I’m not sure the other races need adjustments but instead Terran’s early game needs a nerf and their late game a buff. the terran has extremely powerful lategame its just their early game units are so cost efficient and cheap to the point that everyone keep using them throughout the whole game. as a result their efficiency goes does as the protoss get higher tech tier units that specifically counter the lower tier terran units. No they don't. At least compared to Broodlord/Ultras and Carriers/Colossus. Maybe the move speed buff will make BCs usable, but we'll have to see.
battlecruisers > carriers
also thors with the 250 mm cannons > immortals and collosai
dont believe? check the unit tester
siege tanks become extremely good with their range against all protoss ground once you get those upgrades
seems like terran is just too attached to the easy mm a move play style
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United States7483 Posts
On March 01 2011 08:28 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:
Have anyone checked on the PTR if removal of the amulet really is a nerf? Erm are you serious? Obviously by my previous posts i am of the opinion that the removal was necessary (or at least worth trying out on the PTR) but it is certainly a nerf. By definition as soon as you take something away without giving something of equal value back it is a nerf. If they had buffed some other aspect of the protoss race you could start to argue if the patch itself nerfs or buffs the race, but in our current case the only other change to protoss was a slight buff to the zealot charge mechanic (frankly something well deserved as well) which doesn't matter nearly as much as KA did balancewise so YES this is without a doubt a nerf to the protoss race. The entire argument in this thread is about wether the nerf makes playing protoss impossible (as some are arguing) or was necessary to make playing Terran possible (as some others me included are arguing  ). The only aspect of this patch where you can argue if it is a nerf or a buff is the Infestor change. Health is obviously a buff (and a necessary one, they were probably the weakest spellcaster and are VERY easy to target with focus fire due to their size), but the FG changes can be seen as a buff or a nerf (DPS increase vs. reduce of Snare time) depending on the role you use infestors for.
No, a lot of people were saying taking away amulet isn't a major problem in the sense that it makes the game unplayable or anything, they were complaining that 100% of games that don't end with a 4 gate are going to be colossus, colossus, colossus.
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On March 01 2011 08:38 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:09 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 07:49 p1cKLes wrote:On March 01 2011 04:32 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 01 2011 04:30 p1cKLes wrote:
So it seems that most people agree on two things.
1. Protoss and Zerg’s late game is very strong and difficult to deal with for Terran.
2. Terran’s early game is strong and is difficult for Protoss and Zerg (zerg more so) to deal with.
And in my mind, the balance changes don’t really address either one of these points.
Well, removal of the Amulet upgrade nerfs Protoss late game. Increasing Stim Pack research time nerfs Terran early game. I’m not sure I agree with this in the sense that these changes really play that big of a part in Terrans early game or Protoss/Zerg’s late game. Protoss and Zerg have a very strong late game. Terran has a weak late game, but a very strong early game. So it seems to me the culprit isn’t Protoss or Zerg, it is Terran. So I’m not sure the other races need adjustments but instead Terran’s early game needs a nerf and their late game a buff. the terran has extremely powerful lategame its just their early game units are so cost efficient and cheap to the point that everyone keep using them throughout the whole game. as a result their efficiency goes does as the protoss get higher tech tier units that specifically counter the lower tier terran units. No they don't. At least compared to Broodlord/Ultras and Carriers/Colossus. Maybe the move speed buff will make BCs usable, but we'll have to see.
You seriously think Ultras are a strong lategame unit?
I'm not trying to troll here, but in my personal opinion zerg are basically in the same boat as terrans with their lategame units.
Broodlords are strong vs. Ground but how hard is it to build a few vikings to counter them?
Ultras are probably the most useless lategame unit (yes even worse than the BCs before this patch imho). If you had either a few buildings in the way or a decent amount of bio units to split up they simply died without doing much of anything.
Zergs lategame strength comes from the larva mechanic and the exponential way their production improves the more hatches you have. Not their kickass tier 3 units (note sarcasm!).
(I consider Thors and colossi in a different tier than Broodlords/ultras/HTs/Carriers/BCs simply because you usually get them earlier. We could argue if colossi belong up there, but since every protoss i play builds the robo for observers anyway they are only 1 building removed, while all other units usually need 2 buildings (3 in the case of Zerg if you count the infestation pit) from the usual place where your basic game opening build ends.)
(edit)@Whitewing: True, but regardless it is a major nerf. Obviously the 2 positions i outlined aren't the total sum of opinions expressed in this thread, there are also some others i didn't mention (e.g. the "the change was necessary, but completly removing it was too harsh let's change it to XY" line of though).
I haven't commented on the Colossus line, because frankly i think they are right... There will be little reason to change from Colossi to templar except to techswitch and make the swarms of vikings useless. But frankly what does this have to do with the KA change? Wether Colossi are too strong, or too weak or just right is an entirely different argument. Personally almost 50% of my games against protoss are 4gates anyway, but sooner or later everyone will know how to defend those rushes and then the later techpaths will become used again.
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I think blizzard just removed khaydarin amulet for testing purposes, there is imo no sensible reason to go through with that change.
without khaydarin emp is just too powerful, especially since templar only have 2 storms at full energy, so saving them up is not that economical either.
As for the Infestor - I personally think its a buff, with higher dps + extra dmg vs armored it may be rly useful vs toss now.
I'm looking forward to the next patch, it will certainly be interesting.
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If you think ultras are a bad late game unit you don't have the economy to support them.
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On March 01 2011 06:02 ZergForHire wrote:
Also, for future patch, blizzard should really consider fixing injecting larva mechanics.
The fact of the matter is, if you dont inject simultaneously, you lose the game. [Its like playing with 2 rax the entire game] The consequences are so harsh compare the other races.
Protoss can forget about chrono, and dump it all on their upgrade. Not effecting any game there.
Protoss can pump out units like there is no tomorow using warpgate technology.
Same with Terran, they can dump mules onces they have secured a gold mineral. And still not have any major effect on their unit production.
On the other hand, zerg misses larva inject, its very critical and may lead to a loss very quickly. Confucious says zerg is dependent on how frequent you inject. And the reality is, even pros still struggle to inject larva simultaneously after the cool down is over, in the midst of intense micro actions that will take place in the later stages of the game.
Here are my solutions:
Hatchery has an option to Load and Un-Load Queens Only.
When Queen is Loaded inside the hatchery, a simple press of 'V' after clicking hatchery, will inject larva to hatcheries. If there are more than 1 hatchery binded to a key, then you must press 'V' accordingly.
When queen is Un-loaded from the hatchery, they can lay creep tumors but cannot inject larva unless they are loaded to the hatchery.
To be more speicfic, the queen may not attack after unloading from the hatchery for 5 seconds, and will have a slowed movement speed. [But this is a great way for your queen to hide from banshee harass, but by no means, there will be no micro potential for the queen to kill banshee from popping in and out of the hatchery, just a way to evacuate]
This will only work with Queen.
Tell me what you guys think. Right now Larva inject is far too important to manually do it, even at the pro levels, think about casual players? who forget to inject. That is again... playing with 2 rax for the entire game. as all the production happens in hatcheries.
this is stupid, trying to make up for lack of skill by making the game easier- i will explain why this will not work- lets say a zerg player is macroing this way not really having to work hard on his injects and oops he gets supply blocked- unless the opponent attacks at that exact moment not a huge deal build 2 overlords then build all the units you were going to build before you got supply blocked- the amount of units you have available at the end is about the same except for a little lost mining time if you were building drones.
on the other hand if a terran player or toss player gets supply blocked its not he gets unblocked and suddenly he can build all the units he was going to build at once. supply blocking hurts toss and terran more than zerg (not that it won't affect zerg but not as much) on the other hand missing injects hurts zerg more than toss or terran forgetting to use there spedcial macro abbillity but it still hurts the terran and toss player
hope that made sense
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@ allred that's not quite true. As Z if you get supply blocked then your larva wil most likely be above 3 per hatch, and you will actually lose out on having additional larva spawn while you're suply blocked and not using it.
edit: I do agree with you that making injects auto cast would not be a good idea.
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On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken.
I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness.
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On March 01 2011 08:40 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:38 oxxo wrote:
At least compared to Broodlord/Ultras and Carriers/Colossus. Maybe the move speed buff will make BCs usable, but we'll have to see. Carriers don't belong there, seeing as they are as useless as BCs right now.
Battlecruisers have a proper role in late game TvT. I'd argue carrier is more useless than Battlecruiser.
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On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness.
currently zerg is in a pretty good state
many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race
looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier
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On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken.
I don't play zerg and have watched every single game of GSL.
Zerg is broken in its fundamental design and was overall a very poorly thought out race. Whenever I see my opponent is zerg on ladder, I honestly think to myself, "Oh, free win". Just because Zerg has won various big games and even tournaments is very poor evidence the race is "far from broken".
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On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier
I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great.
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On March 01 2011 09:17 HuskerPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 09:12 Ratel wrote:On March 01 2011 09:06 pwadoc wrote:On March 01 2011 08:39 oxxo wrote:On March 01 2011 06:35 pwadoc wrote:
Having played the PTR as zerg for a few days now, it doesn't do much to fix the fundamental weakness of the race. I'd say the game still isn't worth playing as zerg at this point. Aren't we past the whole 'Zerg is completely broken' hyperbole by now? It's pretty obvious through streams, tournaments, and GSL that zerg is far from broken. I think it's a foregone conclusion that zerg is very weak. I've seen several pros say as much on their streams in the past 2 weeks. This patch doesn't do anything to address the existing weakness. currently zerg is in a pretty good state many players saying how its the weakest race currently but its far from being an unplayable underpowered broken race looks like people still in the headset of getting buffed every patch to make their life easier I respectfully disagree. The race is often pidgeon-holed into specific unit counters or specific builds and the players often find themselves with only 1 viable option to respond to their opponent. In the meantime their opponent is already preparing by teching to the counter to Zerg's only option to survive. The skill gap required for a Zerg to beat their opponent is far too great.
i agree that you need much better multitasking as a zerg however it pays off with
the advantages that the race offers -you have way better macro potential than any other race
your units are the most cost efficient and cheapest in the game - also the most mobile
p.s. assembly
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Slower bunkers and slower stim. Wow i guess every tvp now is going to be a 4 gate. Early stim and quick bunkers are not the reason why people get owned by early bio pressure its because of the stupidly small maps. How many games have we seen on the new maps of GSTL or GSLMarch be decided by quick stim or bunkers? 0! Stop making rediculous balance changes to make up for bad maps.
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On March 01 2011 08:54 PrinceXizor wrote:
If you think ultras are a bad late game unit you don't have the economy to support them.
and once you have that economy you can win with just about any unit.
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On March 01 2011 05:17 eloist wrote:
It might just be me sucking but ghosts never completely negate templars in my games. I think people are very much overly simplifying this dynamic here.
Most always, the Protoss player will get at least 1-2 good storms off. A well placed EMP can remove further storms from those templars but by not EMPing the rest of the army, you haven't really dealt any damage yet while the storms did. And then of course more templars can be warped in close by to storm again while you might already be out of EMPs.
you got it right
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On March 01 2011 08:50 Freeborn wrote:
it will certainly be interesting.
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EPT
