EPTPatch 1.3 on PTR - Page 186
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:00 IVN wrote: 4 rauders can be stopped conventionally, but if its 2 Medevacs, you want be able to warp in enough units with 1 cycle to stop it, if you dont have insta storm. I still don't see how storm helps in that situation, what I said still applies, it's incredibly easy to stim and run small groups of marauders of storms. Surely feedback is much more efficient? | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:59 Wegandi wrote: The game is way to early for such statements. There are a lot of unit combinations that people simply aren't using. If you do not want your HT getting emped, perhaps invest in a warp prism (it also solves the mobility issue). I mean seriously -- you didn't get instant storm with instant warp in anywhere in SC1 and HT were still used quite frequently (against bio and mech). I didnt need it. I had proper, as opposed to useless Gaylots, Zealots, that could not only tank but also dish out a LOT of dmg. Also, Stalkers are nothing but misfited Dragoons. No wonder Protoss didnt NEED instant storm back then. Toss core units were on pair with T and Z stuff. Not now. Protoss in SC2 are a sad race, their only purpose in life is to die in vain (=tanking dmg), so that the big guns can do some dmg. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 14 2011 10:37 Nashun wrote: Then provide a counter-example. Most of us know marines are too strong, and I'm sure most of us would feel that delaying stim for 30 seconds does absolutely nothing. I see no value in delaying stim in any way. It should take more health, or it shouldn't make them quite as fast at running or shooting. A combination of those - obviously a sensible nerf - but a nerf. A timing nerf in my eyes is meaningless - stim isn't flawed early game, it's just flawed. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 15 2011 17:08 Bommes wrote: 6 Zerglings cost as much as 3 Marines and their dps is OVER 40% HIGHER. EVEN WITHOUT STIM. WTF NREF ZERGLINGS Or just stop these retarded number comparisons. A Void Ray can fly, why do you want to compare it to a marine. The problem is these are valid comparisons. The marine is an all purpose unit. Can be reactored (extremely fast build time) NON GAS cost for the unit and low food use. Hits ground and air. Extremely high DPS with stim. We're not saying that the marine should be removed, or ruined - we don't want the game imbalanced. We want it modified - make the marine weaker - buff something else. Stim'd marines are one of the best units in the entire game - add in 'free' bunkers and people with better and better unit control and that unit is going places - let alone 3/3 with medivacs supporting them. People don't whine about zealots of zerglings because they aren't all purpose - ground only attackers. | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:48 The KY wrote: His point was that there were other considerations to make other than just throwing out numbers. You have just backed up his point. If we're mentioning that zerglings are melee, how about that voids fly, are armoured, and have considerably more health than marines? How about that the marine has multiple AoE hard counters? You can't just compare the DPS of two units to claim one is OP. Blizzard knows what the fucking DPS of each unit is, and funnily enough they don't balance around graphs and charts. When I mention range, it's a group DPS rate. E.g., this is why with a ball of 40 unupgraded stalkers vs 40 unupgraded roach in a ball fight, stalkers will win, simply because they have more range and more can "fire". It's sorta like areal density dps. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:56 ScythedBlade wrote: When I mention range, it's a group DPS rate. E.g., this is why with a ball of 40 unupgraded stalkers vs 40 unupgraded roach in a ball fight, stalkers will win, simply because they have more range and more can "fire". It's sorta like areal density dps. What do you mean 'simply' because of range? You seem to be neglecting a key factor in that one stalker costs DOUBLE 1 roach. I guarentee you that barring a situation where protoss has access to unlimited forcefields, there are NO circumstances where 20 stalkers would beat 40 roaches in a straight up fight. It wouldn't even be close... Not sure what you were trying to emphasis by your post but thought I should point that out anyway. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:07 IVN wrote: I didnt need it. I had proper, as opposed to useless Gaylots, Zealots, that could not only tank but also dish out a LOT of dmg. Also, Stalkers are nothing but misfited Dragoons. No wonder Protoss didnt NEED instant storm back then. Toss core units were on pair with T and Z stuff. Not now. Protoss in SC2 are a sad race, their only purpose in life is to die in vain (=tanking dmg), so that the big guns can do some dmg. Well good thing your Zealots are getting buffed into possibly being better than speedlots because they guarantee a hit on anything in charge range and Stalkers are increasingly fitting into their own role as a heavy micro endurance unit due to blink! | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:07 IVN wrote: I didnt need it. I had proper, as opposed to useless Gaylots, Zealots, that could not only tank but also dish out a LOT of dmg. Also, Stalkers are nothing but misfited Dragoons. No wonder Protoss didnt NEED instant storm back then. Toss core units were on pair with T and Z stuff. Not now. Protoss in SC2 are a sad race, their only purpose in life is to die in vain (=tanking dmg), so that the big guns can do some dmg. If by "Toss core units were on par with T stuff" you mean they were vastly stronger then I agree. Terran needed factory units to counter T1 Protoss units and a factory was obviously a lot more expensive than a gateway. Sure, vultures were amazingly cheap and effective (75 minerals for infinite zealot/probe kills + spider mines? yes please) but making factories and tanks took a lot of gas. TvP really has reversed entirely from BW. In BW you had the Protoss making a lot of fairly cheap effective units (zealots, dragoons) vs the Terran's indestructible army (tanks with vulture support for soaking damage + mines). In SC2 it's the other way around with Terran having to make a lot of fairly cheap effective units (marines, marauders) vs the Protoss' indestructible army (colossi with gateway support). The problem is (and please please please no one take this as balance talk) that Terran mech pushes in BW required perfect micro and timing. Laying down spider mines with multiple vulture groups whilst simultaneously moving tanks forward + sieging (which was a lot harder when you only had one button to siege/unsiege and couldn't queue up siege commands) was amazingly hard. Not only that but if you pushed at the wrong time, i.e. you were a minute behind in push or 2 tanks too short, you'd often get crushed. When it comes to Protoss in SC2, I don't feel like they have to have as perfect control as Terran did in BW since there's nothing like vulture mines or tank sieging involved. Sure, obviously there is some micro involved but not to the level that Terran mech had in BW. But, this isn't BW so whatever. | ||
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thesideshow
930 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:03 Ryder. wrote: Does anyone understand the 'locking divisions until new season' business? I thought it meant no promotion/demotion between divisions, but I was promoted to plat on my NA account a few days ago (and promoted to gold the day before that)...? Probably means the divisions are locked when the patch comes out on retail, until the new season sometime after. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On March 15 2011 21:30 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: I see no value in delaying stim in any way. It should take more health, or it shouldn't make them quite as fast at running or shooting. A combination of those - obviously a sensible nerf - but a nerf. A timing nerf in my eyes is meaningless - stim isn't flawed early game, it's just flawed. Without stim, I'd never beat a protoss who 4gated or 3gate robo'd me. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
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m3rciless
United States1476 Posts
On March 15 2011 22:42 Jimmeh wrote: If by "Toss core units were on par with T stuff" you mean they were vastly stronger then I agree. Terran needed factory units to counter T1 Protoss units and a factory was obviously a lot more expensive than a gateway. Sure, vultures were amazingly cheap and effective (75 minerals for infinite zealot/probe kills + spider mines? yes please) but making factories and tanks took a lot of gas. TvP really has reversed entirely from BW. In BW you had the Protoss making a lot of fairly cheap effective units (zealots, dragoons) vs the Terran's indestructible army (tanks with vulture support for soaking damage + mines). In SC2 it's the other way around with Terran having to make a lot of fairly cheap effective units (marines, marauders) vs the Protoss' indestructible army (colossi with gateway support). The problem is (and please please please no one take this as balance talk) that Terran mech pushes in BW required perfect micro and timing. Laying down spider mines with multiple vulture groups whilst simultaneously moving tanks forward + sieging (which was a lot harder when you only had one button to siege/unsiege and couldn't queue up siege commands) was amazingly hard. Not only that but if you pushed at the wrong time, i.e. you were a minute behind in push or 2 tanks too short, you'd often get crushed. When it comes to Protoss in SC2, I don't feel like they have to have as perfect control as Terran did in BW since there's nothing like vulture mines or tank sieging involved. Sure, obviously there is some micro involved but not to the level that Terran mech had in BW. But, this isn't BW so whatever. Your analysis of BW is incorrect. The reason that T teched to factory was not because gateway units were stronger, but in fact because templars and reaver countered bio too hard. MnM was stronger that T1 protoss units, witness the deep six strategy. However, as soon as protoss teched to reaver, bio autolost, hence mechplay standard. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 15 2011 22:56 Honeybadger wrote: Without stim, I'd never beat a protoss who 4gated or 3gate robo'd me. Are you forgetting they just nerfed stim by 30 seconds? If anything, don't you agree with my point? The timing of stim (based on your post?) seems like it shouldn't be touched, the 30 seconds may be dangerous to terran mental health. However the amount that stim does for the units could be considered - even just slightly as I originally stated. Regardless - as seen in at least one recent game. When the situation hits critical point on gas, the marine continues to be an extremely powerful unit throughout even a very long game. All of this debate is bunk though, as a P fan, I can at least be honest with one thing - I think the poor Zergs are on the shit end of the stick right now, T and P can whine all they want. The Z's deserve their QQ's - I feel sorry for anyone playing that race. | ||
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