EPTI think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay
Stop acting like one series is any proof of the balance or imbalance of instant storm.
Most of us know amulet is too strong, and im sure most of us feel the removal is a too big nerf.
Patch 1.3 on PTR - Page 185
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
Stop acting like one series is any proof of the balance or imbalance of instant storm. Most of us know amulet is too strong, and im sure most of us feel the removal is a too big nerf. | ||
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Nashun
United States56 Posts
On March 14 2011 01:13 weikor wrote: Stop acting like one series is any proof of the balance or imbalance of instant storm. Most of us know amulet is too strong, and im sure most of us feel the removal is a too big nerf. Then provide a counter-example. Most of us know marines are too strong, and I'm sure most of us would feel that delaying stim for 30 seconds does absolutely nothing. | ||
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Phoobie
Canada120 Posts
What makes Marines so strong is that with stim this 50 mineral all purpose bread and butter unit becomes the most cost efficient unit in the game against just about everything. If i had to nerf Stimpacks, rather then increasing build time by 30 seconds I would reduces the attack speed bonus from 50% to 45%, resulting in a ~1.33 DPS reduction while stimmed for the Marine. No Stim: 6 damage at .82 speed = 7.317 DPS 50% Stim: 6 damage at .41 speed = 14.634 DPS 45% Stim: 6 damage at .451 Speed = 13.303 DPS | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On March 14 2011 14:10 Phoobie wrote: Agreed, I don't think adding 30 seconds to the build time of stim will change much, if anything. What makes Marines so strong is that with stim this 50 mineral all purpose bread and butter unit becomes the most cost efficient unit in the game against just about everything. If i had to nerf Stimpacks, rather then increasing build time by 30 seconds I would reduces the attack speed bonus from 50% to 45%, resulting in a ~1.33 DPS reduction while stimmed for the Marine. No Stim: 6 damage at .82 speed = 7.317 DPS 50% Stim: 6 damage at .41 speed = 14.634 DPS 45% Stim: 6 damage at .451 Speed = 13.303 DPS Stim is +50% attack speed which means -33% cooldown. It's not +100% attackspeed or -50% cooldown. Using bad stats just looks bad. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 14 2011 14:10 Phoobie wrote: Agreed, I don't think adding 30 seconds to the build time of stim will change much, if anything. What makes Marines so strong is that with stim this 50 mineral all purpose bread and butter unit becomes the most cost efficient unit in the game against just about everything. If i had to nerf Stimpacks, rather then increasing build time by 30 seconds I would reduces the attack speed bonus from 50% to 45%, resulting in a ~1.33 DPS reduction while stimmed for the Marine. No Stim: 6 damage at .82 speed = 7.317 DPS 50% Stim: 6 damage at .41 speed = 14.634 DPS 45% Stim: 6 damage at .451 Speed = 13.303 DPS http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Marines to 10.5 DPS while stimmed Their DPS is still pretty ridiculous though, 3 Stimmed marines do more DPS than a charged Voidray against a Massive target rofl (and 4dps more than a charged Voidray vs an armored Target) *edit: Whops, they do 0.42 less DPS than a charge voidray against a massive/armored target | ||
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akaname
United Kingdom599 Posts
On March 12 2011 21:48 Zerothegreat wrote: If you don't want to counter something then don't lol. I mean that is the game we play. haha well obviously I will go colossi every game! but what i mean is, it's nice to have a couple of effective counters, especially to such a common (and tier 1) strategy. I think a lot of people are concerned that nerfing HTs will just lead to a more limited match-up. Of course, the match-up could evolve further and we could be wrong! | ||
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Zerothegreat
United States787 Posts
Anyways back to the topic. I see a lot of posts with people complaining about sanZenith's games being the example of him playing well and barely winning as some sort of proof of "amulet is not OP". If you guys would take into account that sanzenith "refused" to even go collossi. I could see sanzenith absolutely crushing sC easy if he mixed those warp-in-storms with collosi. I think this is where the balance is really being looked at. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 14 2011 10:37 Nashun wrote: Then provide a counter-example. Most of us know marines are too strong, and I'm sure most of us would feel that delaying stim for 30 seconds does absolutely nothing. You should watch ppgBubbles vs PainUser. That game shows the true power of storm. | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On March 14 2011 16:04 Dommk wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Marines to 10.5 DPS while stimmed Their DPS is still pretty ridiculous though, 3 Stimmed marines do more DPS than a charged Voidray against a Massive target rofl (and 4dps more than a charged Voidray vs an armored Target) *edit: Whops, they do 0.42 less DPS than a charge voidray against a massive/armored target 6 Zerglings cost as much as 3 Marines and their dps is OVER 40% HIGHER. EVEN WITHOUT STIM. WTF NREF ZERGLINGS Or just stop these retarded number comparisons. A Void Ray can fly, why do you want to compare it to a marine. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
I'm def not making HTs anymore. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Zerg on the other hand is at least allowed to make the argument. But come on toss...let's be serious here. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:24 IVN wrote: So, now you have to build a credit crunch inducing building, research a "Great Depression" upgrade, wait like forever for energy just to get emp'd and lose instantly. If Blizz at least made Storm more viable vs Armored, with like +30%. just like Fungal... I'm def not making HTs anymore. If you spread your HT's then you will get off storms before T can EMP them all, don't try to pretend HT's vs bio with ghosts is insta lose. It's not. | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On March 15 2011 17:08 Bommes wrote: 6 Zerglings cost as much as 3 Marines and their dps is OVER 40% HIGHER. EVEN WITHOUT STIM. WTF NREF ZERGLINGS Or just stop these retarded number comparisons. A Void Ray can fly, why do you want to compare it to a marine. We *COULD* nerf zerglings. But zerglings have a disadvantage which is that their range is 0. That way, their dps on a unit is limited. But marines ... their range is 5, which means we can slap down a huge dps on just one units each time to wipe out incoming targets easily. Stop trying to counter argue because it's not working. The reason we choose to compare voidrays is because their main power was their DPS against armored units. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:43 ScythedBlade wrote: We *COULD* nerf zerglings. But zerglings have a disadvantage which is that their range is 0. That way, their dps on a unit is limited. But marines ... their range is 5, which means we can slap down a huge dps on just one units each time to wipe out incoming targets easily. Stop trying to counter argue because it's not working. The reason we choose to compare voidrays is because their main power was their DPS against armored units. His point was that there were other considerations to make other than just throwing out numbers. You have just backed up his point. If we're mentioning that zerglings are melee, how about that voids fly, are armoured, and have considerably more health than marines? How about that the marine has multiple AoE hard counters? You can't just compare the DPS of two units to claim one is OP. Blizzard knows what the fucking DPS of each unit is, and funnily enough they don't balance around graphs and charts. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:38 The KY wrote: If you spread your HT's then you will get off storms before T can EMP them all, don't try to pretend HT's vs bio with ghosts is insta lose. It's not. It's not efficient at all. It is OK for now, but with 1.3, HTs will be just like Carrier/MS, no one will use them. And rightly so. Why should a Protoss risk it, when HTs now have 0 advantage over Colossi? With KA they at least gave better mobility to the Protoss army, by making expo defending possible, they were/still are however much worse in Dmg/resource, especially vs armored units. W/o KA there is no mobility advantage for HTs, so the only aspects that remain is less Dmg/gas and more risk 'cause they are susceptible to emp and snipes (2, 3 stimed rauders an such). Ergo, no use making HTs after patch 1.3 goes live. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:48 IVN wrote: It's not efficient at all. It is OK for now, but with 1.3, HTs will be just like Carrier/MS, no one will use them. And rightly so. Why should a Protoss risk it, when HTs now have 0 advantage over Colossi? With KA they at least gave better mobility to the Protoss army, by making expo defending possible, they were/still are however much worse in Dmg/resource, especially vs armored units. W/o KA there is no mobility advantage for HTs, so the only aspects that remain is less Dmg/gas and more risk 'cause they are susceptible to emp and snipes (2, 3 stimed rauders an such). Ergo, no use making HTs after patch 1.3 goes live. I don't understand how warp in storms contribute to base defence. If I drop 4 marauders into your expo, and you start warping in an HT, I am just going to kill it. Even if it does warp in and then storms, storm is fucking awful against small groups of marauders. I've had people try it, and it's definitely not 'efficient' to warp in HT's to try to kill marauder drops. All you have to do is stim out of the storm and presto, you have a free HT kill worth 150 gas or however much it is. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:48 IVN wrote: It's not efficient at all. It is OK for now, but with 1.3, HTs will be just like Carrier/MS, no one will use them. And rightly so. Why should a Protoss risk it, when HTs now have 0 advantage over Colossi? With KA they at least gave better mobility to the Protoss army, by making expo defending possible, they were/still are however much worse in Dmg/resource, especially vs armored units. W/o KA there is no mobility advantage for HTs, so the only aspects that remain is less Dmg/gas and more risk 'cause they are susceptible to emp and snipes (2, 3 stimed rauders an such). Ergo, no use making HTs after patch 1.3 goes live. The game is way to early for such statements. There are a lot of unit combinations that people simply aren't using. If you do not want your HT getting emped, perhaps invest in a warp prism (it also solves the mobility issue). I mean seriously -- you didn't get instant storm with instant warp in anywhere in SC1 and HT were still used quite frequently (against bio and mech). | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:58 nam nam wrote: What if you remove the upgrade the upgrade for storm as well (giving them storm by default)? I agree. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 15 2011 20:53 The KY wrote: I don't understand how warp in storms contribute to base defence. If I drop 4 marauders into your expo, and you start warping in an HT, I am just going to kill it. Even if it does warp in and then storms, storm is fucking awful against small groups of marauders. I've had people try it, and it's definitely not 'efficient' to warp in HT's to try to kill marauder drops. All you have to do is stim out of the storm and presto, you have a free HT kill worth 150 gas or however much it is. 4 rauders can be stopped conventionally, but if its 2 Medevacs, you want be able to warp in enough units with 1 cycle to stop it, if you dont have insta storm. | ||
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