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On March 11 2011 09:27 Ryder. wrote:
That's their idea of buffing storm/nerfing EMP? Max 100 energy drain? An incredibly gas and time heavy 3rd tech tier is still not worth it's weight and was toss's only reliable method of stopping drops. But oh dw EMP only drains 100 energy now! Cause so often we have Templar laying around with 175 energy, ready to weather an EMP and still prime for a storming. Out of all the options people have given, such as making EMP a research or making storm no longer a research/start with +15/20 energy, they choose this? A stupid EMP 'nerf' that makes no difference unless we have Templar with at least 175 energy just gathering dust in our base. Cheers blizzard, I guess toss's leaked <50% win rate against Terran really justified a nerf, and one that didn't involve collusi at that.
Edit:spelling
edit2: used wrong less than sign
I have to agree with this, why is it free as it is? - the build times, requirements and costs make it ridiculous. Seems so few Terran upgrades are researched to me - specifically on the ghost and raven.
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On March 12 2011 08:19 K3Nyy wrote:
However, it's definitely unfair that Terran can mass marines/marauders vs Protoss and Zerg and still win. It's just ridiculous Terran can win by massing tier 1 and every vT matchup is revolved around defending the bio ball.
It's not like that's new to Starcraft 2, though.
That's just inherent to how Terrans work. A Terran player to starts going bio can't suddenly plop down 10 factories while getting mech upgrades and start mech play. That's a bitch of a transition. Even in Brood War, Terran went Mech or Bio against Zerg, and only mech ever against Protoss. You don't often see Terran in SC2 or in BW going bio for half the game, then deciding to let all their barracks idle and bio upgrades go to waste while they start the Tech Tree.
Protoss get the shiniest tier three units. That's how the race is meant to be, regardless of any balance complaints.
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On March 12 2011 09:22 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 08:19 K3Nyy wrote:
However, it's definitely unfair that Terran can mass marines/marauders vs Protoss and Zerg and still win. It's just ridiculous Terran can win by massing tier 1 and every vT matchup is revolved around defending the bio ball. It's not like that's new to Starcraft 2, though. That's just inherent to how Terrans work. A Terran player to starts going bio can't suddenly plop down 10 factories while getting mech upgrades and start mech play. That's a bitch of a transition. Even in Brood War, Terran went Mech or Bio against Zerg, and only mech ever against Protoss. You don't often see Terran in SC2 or in BW going bio for half the game, then deciding to let all their barracks idle and bio upgrades go to waste while they start the Tech Tree. Protoss get the shiniest tier three units. That's how the race is meant to be, regardless of any balance complaints.
Agreed. Thanks to the structure of the Terran tech tree, the Terrans basically have to decide on whether they're going Barracks heavy or Factory heavy. They can get a little support from the other one, but they really do have to pick one.
But there is one difference: SK Terran ultimately requires Science Vessels. If Ravens could be made to be worth a damn, we'd see them used in bio compositions.
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On March 12 2011 09:26 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:22 Ribbon wrote:On March 12 2011 08:19 K3Nyy wrote:
However, it's definitely unfair that Terran can mass marines/marauders vs Protoss and Zerg and still win. It's just ridiculous Terran can win by massing tier 1 and every vT matchup is revolved around defending the bio ball. It's not like that's new to Starcraft 2, though. That's just inherent to how Terrans work. A Terran player to starts going bio can't suddenly plop down 10 factories while getting mech upgrades and start mech play. That's a bitch of a transition. Even in Brood War, Terran went Mech or Bio against Zerg, and only mech ever against Protoss. You don't often see Terran in SC2 or in BW going bio for half the game, then deciding to let all their barracks idle and bio upgrades go to waste while they start the Tech Tree. Protoss get the shiniest tier three units. That's how the race is meant to be, regardless of any balance complaints. Agreed. Thanks to the structure of the Terran tech tree, the Terrans basically have to decide on whether they're going Barracks heavy or Factory heavy. They can get a little support from the other one, but they really do have to pick one. But there is one difference: SK Terran ultimately requires Science Vessels. If Ravens could be made to be worth a damn, we'd see them used in bio compositions.
Bio Terran requires Ghosts and/or Vikings against Protoss, and Tanks against Zerg.
Ravens are mostly good in timing attacks against early-game Stalker armies, but Feedback makes them ;_;, alas and alack.
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On March 12 2011 08:20 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:27 Ryder. wrote:
That's their idea of buffing storm/nerfing EMP? Max 100 energy drain? An incredibly gas and time heavy 3rd tech tier is still not worth it's weight and was toss's only reliable method of stopping drops. But oh dw EMP only drains 100 energy now! Cause so often we have Templar laying around with 175 energy, ready to weather an EMP and still prime for a storming. Out of all the options people have given, such as making EMP a research or making storm no longer a research/start with +15/20 energy, they choose this? A stupid EMP 'nerf' that makes no difference unless we have Templar with at least 175 energy just gathering dust in our base. Cheers blizzard, I guess toss's leaked <50% win rate against Terran really justified a nerf, and one that didn't involve collusi at that.
Edit:spelling
edit2: used wrong less than sign
I have to agree with this, why is it free as it is? - the build times, requirements and costs make it ridiculous. Seems so few Terran upgrades are researched to me - specifically on the ghost and raven.
PDD and EMP are definitely the most used skills from the Ghost and Raven, but the Hunter Seeker Missile and Cloak are something I always go for if I get either unit, along with the Moebius and Corvid reactors. (Often times the reactors are first on my priority list between the skill choices.)
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The problem with High Templar and Colossus is not about how strong or weak or balance they are, it's about how overpowered they are compared to other Protoss units.
SC1 offered the possibility to just mass T1 units and outmacro your opponent with tons of zealots/goons, which is almost impossible in SC2. Almost impossible to beat Roaches/Hydras or MM with Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries only even if you're like 2-3 bases more than your opponent (which also rarely happen in high level games).
Best example is of course PvP, showing how ridiculously huge is the gap of investment effectiveness between Colossus and T1 units. In SC1, reavers were the strongest and most expansive units (reavers + shuttle + scarabs) but also the first to die in most of fights, i mean, it never ended with a reaver battle.
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Just finally had a look at the PTR - the new observer features are good - but the full screen mode TOTALLY needs to keep the minimap - I never realised how terrible SC is without it, it's mandatory.
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On March 12 2011 08:19 K3Nyy wrote:
However, it's definitely unfair that Terran can mass marines/marauders vs Protoss and Zerg and still win. It's just ridiculous Terran can win by massing tier 1 and every vT matchup is revolved around defending the bio ball.
Believe me, alot of terrans would love to use something else then the boring MMM. In TvP there is a very simple rule for terrans: go MMM or you lose. The protoss has so many hardcounters to everything that isn't MMM + viking + ghost.
There is a reason why we see every pro terran using MMM. If anything else would be viable, we would see that alot more. I agree that some terrans are trying to use mech, but you will see them only winning when the protoss player fucks up terrible (= fail 4gate, not expanding like a zerg or running with gateway units only in a siegetank line).
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
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On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off.
I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm..
Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss.
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On March 12 2011 10:39 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
Just finally had a look at the PTR - the new observer features are good - but the full screen mode TOTALLY needs to keep the minimap - I never realised how terrible SC is without it, it's mandatory.
hm how do I access the full screen mode?
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there still should be some type of missile animation even if its instant imo..
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United States787 Posts
On March 12 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off. I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm.. Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him Show nested quote +
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss.
Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh.
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OH!, my Khaydarin Amulet!
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as a (terran-hating) protoss player, i guess my issue is this seems to mean that colossi become the only effective counter to MMM (especially with terrans, especially with ghosts). i don't want to compulsorily go colossi every game.
will have to see how it pans out...
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United States787 Posts
On March 12 2011 21:38 akaname wrote:
as a (terran-hating) protoss player, i guess my issue is this seems to mean that colossi become the only effective counter to MMM (especially with terrans, especially with ghosts). i don't want to compulsorily go colossi every game.
will have to see how it pans out...
If you don't want to counter something then don't lol. I mean that is the game we play.
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On March 12 2011 21:15 Zerothegreat wrote:
Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh.
Just quoting for entertainment value.
The least mobile race with the least efficient core units should be up in bases and worker count vs the race with the most efficient core units, better mobility, and better harassment opportunities. Seriously, how do people come up with this nonsense...
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On March 12 2011 21:15 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off. I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm.. Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss. Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh.
You've gotta be shitting me. Since when did Protoss have to be "up in more bases or worker count" to fight bio??
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On March 13 2011 05:49 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 21:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On March 12 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off. I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm.. Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss. Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh. You've gotta be shitting me. Since when did Protoss have to be "up in more bases or worker count" to fight bio??
Protoss can win against bio in other ways, sure, but being up in bases means protoss can go for a late-game win. SanZenith was going for a macro play and it did relatively well against SCfou's aggressive bio.
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On March 12 2011 21:15 Zerothegreat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off. I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm.. Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss. Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh.
That is so absurd, when did even become the status? That Protoss have to actually out expand and out probe BIO to beat them? That is bar far the dumbest thing I've heard simply because it is NOT TRUE.
San was dropping High Templars and DT's everywhere and managed to constrict Terran to a single base at the end and even then he couldn't overpower him until he got his 6th base up.
Mech on the other hand I can agree with due to how immobile they are and the need for a good eco to support Carriers, but Bio?
Storm did not give him an edge, he played so well, he DT'd and got away from close postions vs Terran as fast as possible, he did more drops than the Terran did, he harassed more than the Terran did, the Terran didn't even bother to micro out of Storms, those games if anything prove that Storm ISN'T overpowered. Virtually every other game aside from the metalopalis and Terminus one, San had about the same bases as the Terran but he always got ahead by actually harassing Terrans worker lines while the Terran didn't even bother to do a single drop in his main
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On March 13 2011 05:49 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 21:15 Zerothegreat wrote:On March 12 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:On March 12 2011 07:44 Blues wrote:On March 12 2011 07:17 Killcycle wrote:
I don't play protoss, but i'm thinking the amulet loss is kind of unfair; Ghosts have Moebius Reactor, Infestor has Pathogen Glands... I'm not seeing the logic behind the loss for the HTs. Watch sanZenith vs. sCfOu. All sanZenith did for most of the match was warp in storms over and over. I'm not a big fan of infinite terran bio-balls, but the fact that he could just warp in and insta-storm the place seems off. I think that game is proof that Warp-in Storms SHOULD stay. San was harassing worker lines left and right, he managed to get sC down to 30 SCV's compared to his 70 on the Metalopalis game and it still looked even, even with Marauders not even microing out of Storm.. Imagine of sC actually bothered to protect his worker line from DT's and Storms, it would have been a steam roll for him
I saw a terran going thors & banshees and other cool stuff in a GSL match. A maxed out vs a maxed out fight: the terran army looked like toiletpaper.
Except a maxed out Banshee/Thor/Tank army crushes everything Protoss has but Carriers. There haven't been any games in GSL (aside from HongUns Carrier rush) where a Protoss has successfully transitioned into Carriers to counter mech, so I doubt seriously that there was a maxed out Banshee/Thor army in the GSL that got rolled by any non-Carrier army from toss. Don't misinterpret what the observer shows and what is actually going on in the game. Protoss should have to be up more bases or worker count vs Terran just like Zerg vs everything else. I think we saw San's real skill without being able to use instant storms today to be honest. You have to admit the instant storms gave him a serious edge in all of his previous games. It explains his "sudden" skill increase heh. You've gotta be shitting me. Since when did Protoss have to be "up in more bases or worker count" to fight bio??
Go watch SanZenith vs ScFou at GSL.
San consistently had better macro, better micro and better unit composition (admitedly with mistakes) and yet the whole series was far, far, far too close considering what SC was actually doing. His army was 85% Marauder, which destroys buildings all too fast.
Those games really were too close considering what was being done by both players.
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