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On February 12 2011 03:46 wBsKillian wrote:
I like it the way it is. It just sounds so akward to call a Sentry "protektor". Through this you keep it a bit international, e.g. if my english is really bad I can understand day9s casting, because I know the English unit terms. Well, my German is terrible and despite English names, I still don't understand shit from the casts.
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On February 12 2011 03:34 Iamyournoob wrote:
Imagine some one who has never watched a soccer match before and now watches a televised match. He doesn't know what offside is, he doesn't know what a corner kick is, nonetheless it might still be entertaining for him as long as
Still it'll be easier to understand because all those terms actually have an established german counterpart... I think that's where the OP is hinting at, imagine all those things would be english in a germany football commentary "corner kick" instead of "ecke" and stuff.
Most people here know their way around in english but I imagine this would be even more confusing for a person that doesn't know english well (or doesn't know it at all) than the fact that they don't know shit about the rules to begin with.
If I showed my mother some random SC2 VoD by some german caster, not only would it be confusing because she doesn't know crap about how the game works or what it's about, but additionally that guy casting that game throws around english terms like "choke", "push", "natural", "minerals" (ok, you might get that... but still) all the time.
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On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote:
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following:
(I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites
- I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1
- I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
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Good thread.
I love the German language (and how could I not, it's my mother tongue), but I hate it when there's inept people trying to come off as a comedian with their low SES vocabulary and poor grammar. It's just pathetic. I don't blame them, they just do whatever they get paid money for by sponsors enjoy, even if they suck at it. This isn't really a purely German phenomenon, since everyone and their mother is casting games and tourneys these days, 90% of it is trash almost purely by chance. + Show Spoiler [Ranting and Raving] +Hell, I still don't get why this djWheat guy is getting so much attention when he knows dick about SC2 and his voice is so incredibly obnoxious that I mute every stream he happens to be co-commenting on.
Anyway - the big question is: would I enjoy a 'clean' German cast?... and that is a big question. I don't know, I have yet to witness a German caster produce worthwile material. (Someone listed Apollo as able caster? ... I disagree.)
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English is like the de facto standard language of the computer world. That includes Starcraft 2. Every translation of every English named term regarding computers is pretty much made up bullshit. I get furious when I'm forced to use Swedish versions of Windows, Office, and that whenever you install utorrent/VLC from scratch is starts up in Swedish, because of these ridiculous force-translated terms that don't mean anything. You can barely find the settings to change the language back because of these stupid translations.
My point is that the units, maps, etc. all have names. English names. They should not be translated to German or whatever in the first place. Translated software is stupid. It's like if someone (usually old people) calls me Robert instead of Roberto because Robert is the Swedish version of the same name. That really pisses me off.
When it comes to stuff like choke point it's just way easier to just say that. I can't even tell you what a Swedish equivalent would be, and even if I did I would never use it.
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I am more of a purist when it comes to languages and dont like it when people mix too much english into their german, resulting in denglish.
But in this case I think its a non-issue. Its perfectly ok to use english expressions for units or for game-specific stuff like "drops", "expansion" and so on. Using German expressions might even make it harder for beginners, as they would have to know two different terms. I only dont like it when its overdone, e.g. I heard stuff like "er wurde geforced seine exe zu moven". :D
But I am absolutely sure that the usage of english game-specific terms has no negative effect at all on e-sports in Germany.
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On February 12 2011 03:51 ilikeLIONZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote:
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following:
(I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites
- I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1
- I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys would still dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster. 
Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else.
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On February 12 2011 04:09 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:51 ilikeLIONZ wrote:On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote:
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following:
(I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites
- I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1
- I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me. The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys still would dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster. Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else.
I know that it is about the English words etc. But still, The vocabulary AND the use of English/German is important.
As I see it, this thread is also about developing esports in Germany and this isnt possible if the German pendant to day9 is just horrible. I dont want to be too critical and I dont want to talk someone down. I just feel that the German casters are not half as good as the known English speaking ones.
Ofc, some are actually good. But I dont wat to derail this thread into some namedropping and assulting people
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When you use the english name for a spell, unit or somthing like that its ok. I don't even know the german names. But when casters start to make verbs out of that or use english verbs in german like "moven" or "geforced", it sounds so weird!
btw, about german casters: good commentaries in german with english expressions could be possible... 
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On February 12 2011 03:51 ilikeLIONZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote:
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following:
(I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites
- I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1
- I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
Calling HomerJ the "german pendant" to Day9 is probably the most insulting comparison imagineable.
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On February 12 2011 03:42 Shockk wrote:
[Do you seriously think you need coherent language to transform a casting of SC2 into something that will transcend the gaming niche? Do you think casts done in english for the english-speaking automatically appeal to everyone instead of just gamers? No, they don't.
The OP made the language responsible for cast being not appealing to new viewers in general. I expanded it to the non-gaming audience.
It's the casters responsibility to pick a target audience and to fit his casting style to their needs. Even a gaming audience with no knowledge about SC need to be educated. I wouldn't suggest the arian aproach, but careful selection of what english terms and what german explanations to use would help to get to whatever target audience.
I think non-english casters have an extremely hard "job", if they wanted to be good (in the way I described). It's not easy to not use the terms you are familiar with from watching english casts and to force yourself to not be the way the OP described (mayority of english terms and some german filler words thrown in to make it into sentences).
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I don't think that using the native words of units and maps would change the popularity of esports nor it would be more accepted as a "sport".
Because the people who don't play sc2 doesn't know the unit names in any language. For example stalker is called "Hetzer" in german. "hetzer" is not a german word so the unit names are pointless.
When you tell a german friend that this unit is called stalke, he would never thought about a german word for this. This is not the only example. How would you translate Xel naga or zerg or so. Even 4 gate (I don't know what the gate is called in german...) It is like any other sport
You have terms that are specific to the sport. Like ycheckmate in chess.
Little Edit: The german casters are horrable. Takesen did a very nice job with the homestory cup but i was happy about the engish casting of rotterdam and the other guys.
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On February 12 2011 04:14 Sewi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 04:09 Redox wrote:On February 12 2011 03:51 ilikeLIONZ wrote:On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote:
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following:
(I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites
- I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1
- I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me. The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys still would dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster. Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else. I know that it is about the English words etc. But still, The vocabulary AND the use of English/German is important. As I see it, this thread is also about developing esports in Germany and this isnt possible if the German pendant to day9 is just horrible. I dont want to be too critical and I dont want to talk someone down. I just feel that the German casters are not half as good as the known English speaking ones. Ofc, some are actually good. But I dont wat to derail this thread into some namedropping and assulting people
Lol there is no German pendant to day9.
And no, the existence of a caster you dont like does not mean that the development of esport in Germany is impossible. :D
A much bigger problem for esports is imo the general attitude in german esports communities. There is too much flaming and a hypercritical attitude towards active contributers like casters instead of just enjoyment of the game. But yeah we are very off-topic indeed, I'm out.
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I grew up in Germany, and I was constantly surprised to see how English kept filtering it's self into the language and really this isn't a new thing anymore. From Tomas Gottschalk explaining words like 'Happy' on Wetten Dass, ProSieben's slogan: "We love to entertain you", and just simply everyday life it's all over the place. Some of these English words don't have an exact German equivalent so it becomes only natural that German adopts them, but others are just used because of the spread of American Culture. Starcraft is after all an American game that is derived from a British boardgame and American scifi movies. Does it make sense to hide that fact when talking about it? I know in American one thing people hate about dubbed Anime is the Americanization of things that are uniquely Japanese. Things like Japanese honorifics are ok to leave in because the audience understands it's a Japanese production and is perfectly fine with learning what those things mean. Different cultural elements is part of the appeal of entertainment.
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English casters use korean words all the time, and nobody complains. It's just something you adjust to as you become more and more interested.
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The language is really not the problem here i think. It much more things combined.
1German casters suck at this game
I´m sorry if i am offending anyone and yeah even if Kahldor would be in master leauge (wich i doubt he is) he still has a so basic understanding of the game that it almost feels like the way Dustin Browder casted at Blizzcon.Thinks like "He died because he had no units that could shoot up" well not only is that a gross oversimplyfication off the situation it reveals another problem that nearly ALL german casters have
2They are casting this like Football
I mean telling me that his roaches attacking this gateway over and over again doesn´t really do anything.They are only saying what people can already see and don´t explain the reason why they are doing it (relating to point 1)Let me give you an example:
Day9:"And wee see the protoss player taking an early expansion ,that means he is going to be very defense for the time but when he can hold on to it he is going to be in a good position"
German caster" We see has taken that expo also making that gas and scouting with his probe while we see the other player building more Barracks scanning the protoss to see what´s up(not mentioning the implications what so ever)"
see the problem there?somebody who does not have a great example does not not what the fuck is going but only that they are building stuff and are doing "amazing micro" (while not knowing WHY or HOW) they just kind of do things and in the end there is a winner.There is no sense of Back and forth when there is no Battle going on.
3They do not take this seriously
First i want to say that i am a person who likes it when people show personality,i like people giving their honest opinions at appropriat times BUT how are you going to convince someone that esport is really exciting and something that should be respected when you have these guys (Kahldor Stream as an example)just sitting there and talking like they are just casualy watching a football game on their couch.I mean honestly what would you rather watch
THIS:
![[image loading]](http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/416/unbenanntxmy.th.png)
or ehhh i don´t know this ?
![[image loading]](http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6640/gsl.th.png)
and to be fair they are not the GSL don´t have the funding bla bla bla so what about this:
![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9167/mlg.th.png)
still looks way more engaging.
So i´m sitting here watching these two Archetype Nerds while every once in a while that Bold guy just starts grabbing a bottle of beer and is like sucking on that bottle again like he is at home with his Bro´s ("Kumpels for the Germans") and then then he gets a fucking Cup of Noodles and starts fucking eating it while the other guy is casting AND THEY HAVE A LITTLE SCREEN SHOWING THAT :
![[image loading]](http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/114/castwtf.th.png)
I have a question for you how do you expect the audience to care when you are obviously NOT FUCKING CARING.
that makes me an angry angry Germany I:<
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I went to Germany in my 8th grade... about 16 years ago. It was a school trip and we lived with some German families and I remember how badly they spoke English, so yeah, language is a huge problem for countries which aren't heavily influenced by English from movies and TV series.
The biggest difference between countries like Germany and for instance Norway or Sweden is that we use subtitles for our foreign TV shows, instead of dubbing them like it's being done in Germany. That translates into way better understanding of foreign languages. (Actually only a specific language, English).
As vrok posted earlier, I get a bit annoyed when I have to use translated software. It's often done so badly it gets laughable.
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@ Clamev
Man its exactly people like you that are the problem. Always complaining, bitching, flaming. The german esport communities are full of your type unfortunately. 
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On February 12 2011 03:50 FliedLice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 03:34 Iamyournoob wrote:
Imagine some one who has never watched a soccer match before and now watches a televised match. He doesn't know what offside is, he doesn't know what a corner kick is, nonetheless it might still be entertaining for him as long as
Still it'll be easier to understand because all those terms actually have an established german counterpart... I think that's where the OP is hinting at, imagine all those things would be english in a germany football commentary "corner kick" instead of "ecke" and stuff.
We shouldn't look at football, which is "the" sport in Germany (btw: hattrick, pressing?).
Poker:
Flop, river, gut-shot, draw, flush, straight, royal Flush, allin, pair, "x high", blind, full house. Yes we have German expressions, but they're not being used (not even on tv).
Or look at the wikipedia site for American Football or the American Football plays. Shitton of English expressions with no German counterpart. Look at tennis or icehockey.
As long as there isnt a gigantic following we use english terms in almost every sport and most technical fields (ie. computer science).
I therefore dont think it's a big issue when casters use the English unit names / jargon.
I do dislike forced expressions, which can be normally expressed in German ("er retreated nun" vs "he retreats" vs "er zieht sich zurück"; "er forced nun vikings" "he forces vikings" "er zwingt ihn zu vikings").
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On February 12 2011 04:20 iNViCiOUZ wrote:
Because the people who don't play sc2 doesn't know the unit names in any language. For example stalker is called "Hetzer" in german. "hetzer" is not a german word so the unit names are pointless.
When you tell a german friend that this unit is called stalke, he would never thought about a german word for this.
The Duden begs to differ:
http://www.duden.de/suche/index.php?suchwort=hetzer&suchbereich=mixed&btnSearch.x=0&btnSearch.y=0#inhalte
This is not the only example. How would you translate Xel naga or zerg or so.
"Zerg" and "Xel'Naga" aren't even English words, they're just words that were specifically made up for Starcraft, so making up an equivalent German word is easy. In these two cases, the words are spelt the same in German, only their pronounciation changes slightly.
Even 4 gate (I don't know what the gate is called in german...) It is like any other sport
You have terms that are specific to the sport. Like ycheckmate in chess.
To be honest, I don't know the German words for Gateway or Warpgate either, but your chess example is completely invalid as different languages do indeed have different names for "check mate" and I'm also pretty sure that the term isn't of English origin.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img831.imageshack.us/i/unbenanntxmy.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img534.imageshack.us/i/gsl.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/i/mlg.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img233.imageshack.us/i/castwtf.png/)
