Edit: I confused Starcraft 2 with esports in general, so this probably should get moved. Sorry about that. Edit 2: I included some notable posts at the bottom, although I suggest to everyone interested in this topic to read the whole thread.
Hi, I'd like to address a few issues i see with the progress of esports in Germany, especially concerning the style of casting and the language involved.
Before I begin with my argument, I would like to state that I want to see esports (specifically Starcraft 2) succeed in the non-english speaking countries. I do not know how this is handled by casters in other countries than Germany but I believe that the issues may have a mutual origin being the commonly accepted language in the gaming community, english.
Ok, lets get to the statement:
The language used by most (if not all) german casters (a hybrid of german and english) acts as a major hindrance for people to get attracted to esports and therefore the success of esports on a larger scale in Germany.
Let me elaborate a bit on the language part: (This got quite big) If you are a common gamer and also speak a bit of english, you will probably prefer to play games in their original language (same applies with watching movies or series). Doing this and watching tournaments and casts on english, you will familiarize yourself with the english vocabulary used.
If you now engage in a discussion with someone in german you will have the problem that you can't name the units and abilities and that you are accustomed to the english terms for pretty much everything happening in the game. What would happen now is a stuttering conversation, since you would have to translate all the english words over to german. This may take quite a long time depending on the word. Just to show an example: "choke point" should be translated to "Engpass". I actually had to look that up myself.
Now, since the guy you're talking to is usually also exposed to a similar amount of english content and the discussion would be impractical and seem silly if you always thought for a few seconds before going on, you just do the easy thing and use the english term. You are now able to finish the discussion. The problem is that you just invented a fuckton of new words to accustom to the german flow of speech and that someone listening to your conversation will be fucking weirded out and not understand a thing you are saying.
Of course this doesn't matter to the common gamer.
Now, I wanted to talk about the development of esports in Germany in relation to this new language.
The moment this language becomes awkward is when you try to explain something about the game to someone who is actually playing games on german or, in the "extreme" case, doesn't play any games and/or does not speak any english. While the gamer may actually incorporate the "Denglish" words into his language, the "normal" guy will probably ask you to talk in german to him or just give you the nerdstamp.
What I want to see is successful esport-events in Germany, with a big audience. The people currently doing the casting in german unintentionally stop this from happening by alienating anyone that does not speak their artificial language. If nothing changes about this, the german scene will likely stagnate at the point where it is now.
I am really interested in the opinion of other people on this , so please tell me what you think.
Note: Of course I could be wrong with this. It could very well be that we will see huge televised tournaments casted in germany, casted in "Denglish". However, I neither see that happening nor would I personally watch something like that.
On February 12 2011 04:39 Zocat wrote: I therefore dont think it's a big issue when casters use the English unit names / jargon. I do dislike forced expressions, which can be normally expressed in German ("er retreated nun" vs "he retreats" vs "er zieht sich zurück"; "er forced nun vikings" "he forces vikings" "er zwingt ihn zu vikings").
One small thing I'd like to clarify: I agree that the use of some technical terms can probably not be avoided. What I do criticize is the overusage of such terms and the fusion of german and english words and grammar.
Maybe a little thought experiment might help you understand what I mean:
Imagine that you have a Starcraft 2 event with a guaranteed 1 million people that will watch from the beginning. Those people do not know Starcraft 2 and do not speak english. How would you present the event to keep them watching?
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
On February 12 2011 22:36 Zocat wrote: I think it may be appropiate to throw some numbers around. Assembly is on atm, 2.30pm in Germany (so almost no NA watchers):
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
I'd like to mention here that Totalbiscuit (Shoutcraft) had trouble getting into games and that the glhf casters had some technical difficulties. Also it was very early in America at the time these numbers were posted.
Short update on the viewer numbers going into game 3 of the finals of Assembly: itzMorglum(polish) - 436 Khaldor(german) - 6088 TheBeardTV(english) - 895 glhf(english) - 7365
The numbers are taken directly from the streams, the tab on teamliquid seems to show incorrect numbers
peak of the german stream at about 10k
On February 13 2011 07:13 chumppi wrote: Yup, glhf.tv had 9,5k + thebeard.tv 1k(same stream) at the Huk vs. morrow semifinal match.
Response edit #5 (elaboration on the cultural context): + Show Spoiler +
On February 12 2011 14:21 Vod.kaholic wrote: I think we have to look at this problem within a certain context.
Imagine for a second that there were no SC2 scene anywhere except Germany, but the German scene were rather big. SC2 is still an English-language game and all the unit and building names are of English origin, but all the vocabulary that arises for casting and such is then purely German. This was clearly the case in Korea, where they still used Korean-ized versions of the English names but developed/adopted Korea vocabulary to describe the strategies and actions. The thing Korea also had going for it is that it wasn't influenced by the foreign scene very much (I don't really know, I could be wrong) in terms of casting.
When you look at Germany though, it is entering into a much more integrated global scene where the biggest casters (HD, Husky, Day9, tastosis etc.) cast in English and can reach a very wide audience among educated, bilingual European gamers. The reason the German scene has problems effectively developing its own vocabulary is because of the "cultural" weight that casters from other scenes are bringing to bear on the yet-undeveloped German scene.
As other posters have pointed out with the Khaldor vs. HomerJ issue, German casters haven't set their OWN model for casting, they're trying to emulate what the foreigners do. There simply hasn't been enough time or space between the German and the larger English-speaking scene for the former to go through a process of natural growth and adaptation - it's stifled by the weight of the foreign scene.
Response edit #6 (One of the many posts mentioning the accessibility for non-german speaking viewers - which is a very interesting though ironic branch of the discussion, possibly a little bit offtopic) + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2011 07:56 Mr.Brightside wrote: Not sure if this is relevant but I actually preferred to watch the German casting because it was more exciting and they didn't have a player score bar covering the control groups (which really frustrated me in the english cast since I am currently trying to work on my control groups and I want to see what the pros are using). I am actually an English speaker living in Germany and I only understand very basic words, I think the way that the Germans are currently casting is like a reversal of this situation (although a lot of Germans have a good grasp of English), since the game is pretty new they are both trying not to alienate the German speakers by speaking too much English and slowly introducing English terms to the German esports community (making it easier for them to understand on an international level). Whether this is intentional or not I don't know but I think the casting will continue to evolve to be a more fluent "Denglish", easier to understand for both English and German speakers that wish to follow German esports events.
I don't really see a problem with them using english terms. I think it's good that everyone is using the same hame related words like the names of the units or maps. This brings the global sc community closer. Everyone knows what a four-gate is e.g.
Have you ever been to Quebec? The official language is French, however when it comes to the subculture of games and gamers, almost all argot is in english.
This is seen in Halo, SC/#2, CS: S and Dota especially (HoN included)
When you use terms that are not traditional use in the english language, they tend not to have an affiliation with the language, but the culture. For non-gamers, just like for those unfamiliar with the culture, it's new to them and it isn't necessarily a hindrance.
It's just something new, the language is almost irrelevant.
Very good point, I dont know about CS casters in Germany, but in and around there (i.e, Netherlands) Counter Strike is or atleast used to be played quite a lot in tournies
I used to play on a german server quite a lot and eventually learned to understand quite a bit of the german slang they used, along with my GCSE German (test @ around 16 years old for Americans). It was actually pretty cool talking in german on a regular basis, but I could never actually make a full sentance with that slang fluently
Id just do 1 worders like kurz, hinter and lang or whatever, and it was actually a lot of fun
In terms of SC2 casters, and this goes for all countires, a native caster is important. Its one thing to speak the language and know all of the acronyms, but speaking and entertaining are entirely different things
Casting in 100% german won't make streams accessible for average Joe. Even german StarCraft stays StarCraft, i.e. not more than a niche in entertainment, regardless of how huge we think it is. There needs to be a large general acceptance for video games as a form of art and entertainment and as a means to express skill before we should worry about the influence of language.
Also, german casting has a much larger problem at hand: Most german casters plain suck (Khaldor is the rare exception). Take HomerJ (who has a huge audience for german standards) - his casting style is atrocious. And so many aspiring casters take him as a role model instead of Khaldor, Tasteless, Artosis or others.
Its an interesting topic, even though I never thought about it. But i dont think the denglish version of casting should be a problem. It can sound weird for people not involved in (sc2) gaming communities. But you have to explain the terms anyway. Someone who doesnt know anything about sc2 wont understand what i mean with
"Der Terraner mauert seinen Engpass zu". So i have to explain what the "engpass" is and why he does it anyway.
The english version is neither better nor worse. "Der Terra baut eine wall an seiner choke" I have to explain what the "choke" is and why the terran doesnt want to get overun by speedlings.
If you now engage in a discussion with someone in german you will have the problem that you can't name the units and abilities and that you are accustomed to the english terms for pretty much everything happening in the game. What would happen now is a stuttering conversation, since you would have to translate all the english words over to german. This may take quite a long time depending on the word. Just to show an example: "choke point" should be translated to "Engpass". I actually had to look that up myself.
Now, since the guy you're talking to is usually also exposed to a similar amount of english content and the discussion would be impractical and seem silly if you always thought for a few seconds before going on, you just do the easy thing and use the english term. You are now able to finish the discussion. The problem is that you just invented a fuckton of new words to accustom to the german flow of speech and that someone listening to your conversation will be fucking weirded out and not understand a thing you are saying. .
Dont really understand this point in your post. If i talk in german about starcraft 2 ill juse the english unit names and english expressions like "natural" or "drop" anyways. Its just a part of the game. Like in medicine you also use latin if you speak german. In some topics there are technical terms which are english/latin/greek, but its totally normal to use them in a german conversation. Another example would be programming where many words are english.
So no i dont need to translate established terms into german just because i speak german.
how are poker events casted in german media? poker is obviously more popular than any e-sport, but the variants currently played all came out of the US pretty late so I expect there won't be an obvious german vocabulary for it. River, open-ender, balance and a bunch of other terms have no obvious translation in my native language, but the terms that were used in the first popular television broadcasts have become standard although they sound weird to my ear. I expect if you follow the terms that your most popular sc2 caster uses the same will happen for sc2.
As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
Unlike WoW, SC2 is international. While the games is offered in German, the multiplayer (and thus e-sports) aspect will generally be on neutral grounds, and communicate in the regions predominant language and/or the games original language english.
English is not a hard language by any means (its not like you'd have to learn korean.. well, ok, it would probably help!), and especially in Germany it is very commonly taught at schools of every grade. In my opinion mixed language casting opens up non-english communities to the wide open international community, rather than alienate them.
Also, english and german just flow well together because of their mingled ancestry.
I dont know any german SC2 sites, and thats mostly because they're crowded with people who not only dont speak english, but dont speak german well at all. German game communities make me want to claw my eyes out. Probably as much as germans here writing english do for the english audience.
This is my biggest prolem watching german casts, there are german names for all the unit, but they are rarely used. I prefer to watch english cast, maybe it's just preference, maybe it's the fact that (in my opinion) the english casters are better than the german ones. It's really hard to find the balance between german and english when it comes to casting
The OP doesn't talk about translations instead of the english terms in general.
I believe he prefers to the awkwardness that ensues, if you expose an uneducated (in terms of SC2) not english speaking audience to not only the the unit names, but also buildorder abreviations and the general SC lingo (drop, harrasment etc.)
"Four gate" is a perfect example. A non english speaker wont know that it refers to 4 gates, but only hears that one word (vorgäte could be how he "hears" it) and has a very difficult time to get invested in a cast, if the barrier to get invested into the game is also set so high by the language.
I think the responsibility to make german casts appealing to a non-gaming audience lies with the casters/presenters entirely. If they do not find a way to explain what is happening in a way that is understandable (and entertaining) to new viewers, then they won't break out of the gaming-niche.
Since I nearly entirely watch english casts I would be interested in some (youtube) examples of popular/successful german casters. The only german caster I recall is Forst/Henning (something like that) and I was turned off by one of his casts in english quite fast.
As a German who frequently watches ESL-TV, I have to disagree. To some extend I find it weird to hear some english expressions when there is a suitable german word for it, e.g. choke point. But when it comes to specific StarCraft2 terms and expressions, I don't think there is any problem with that.
Imagine some one who has never watched a soccer match before and now watches a televised match. He doesn't know what offside is, he doesn't know what a corner kick is, nonetheless it might still be entertaining for him as long as
1.) he or she understands the basic mechanics of the game
2.) The match is good and entertaining
3.) the commentator creates a good atmosphere
4.) the audience is good.
Now referring to SC2 I don't see any problem with 1.) Two players build bases and units and try to destroy each other. What else do you need to know? 2.) is something you can never make sure. 4.) From the esports events in Germany that I have seen, I must say the audience is great.
I'd rather see an issue with 3.) The commentators in Germany (that would be those of ESL-TV) are rubbish compared to the likes of Day9, Tastosis, Apollo and what their names are. Yeah the german commentators are nice guys but they lack both knowledge and entertainment value. That is the one thing that pisses me off the most and it is the one thing that I believe to be the most problematic when it comes to the perception of esports.
On the other hand: Watching CounterStrike Source on ESL-TV is awesome, since both commentators always get really excited by the game and regularly freak out when something awesome happens. So it is not a general problem but one that can be solved by exhanging commentators...
another thing that happens to me often is using a literal translation of an english expression that both me and the person I'm talking to know, although that means nothing in my language. e.g. translating "under the gun" like "below a pistol"
IMO translating terms such as "choke point", "expansion", "worker" is ok, but for units/buildings/maps, English terms should be used, as they are specific names. It also makes it easier to communicate with other players and non-English names just don't sound right to me.
Also, almost every potential Starcraft player/viewer in Europe speaks at least some English.
I don't really see the problem with that. Sure, I know what you're talking about because some friends have the game in German, still we don't have too much of a problem with it. Ok, might be a bit because I still know some names from BW where I also had the German version. Still I think it also adds some funny moments into a conversation when you try to explain something and have to describe that unit or building you just mentioned.
What also distracts me a bit is when casters use just too many english words in the commentary. I mean to use the english terms for units, buildings and very common things like choke, expansion, base etc. is fine, but when they start using words like retreat, attack etc. that's just annoying to me.
Changing the context around a little - wouldn't you think English unit names open foreign language casting up to people not very adapt at speaking whatever it is cast in?
I think the responsibility to make german casts appealing to a non-gaming audience lies with the casters/presenters entirely. If they do not find a way to explain what is happening in a way that is understandable (and entertaining) to new viewers, then they won't break out of the gaming-niche.
Do you seriously think you need coherent language to transform a casting of SC2 into something that will transcend the gaming niche? Do you think casts done in english for the english-speaking automatically appeal to everyone instead of just gamers? No, they don't.
I'd even go so far to claim that casts done entirely in german will have the complete opposite effect: They'll alienate the scene. Why? Because german isn't "cool", and Germany has some serious issues with all topics that are "german". If you'd opt to translate all common abbreviations and english terms into german, you'd end up with a language that feels way to constructed and would just come across as trying too hard. You may actually reach some viewers that had issues with english in german casts (the few there are), but you'd lose all credibility with the overwhelming rest of the community.
I like it the way it is. It just sounds so akward to call a Sentry "protektor". Through this you keep it a bit international, e.g. if my english is really bad I can understand day9s casting, because I know the English unit terms through the German/English casts.
Its exactly the same with French, sometimes I have a really hard time to find words to explain things to less experienced people.
I, myself, hate to translate technical terms from English to French because it sounds extremely awkward and unprecise. For this exact reason I have a hard time following French casters and discussing with Frenchs about the game.
On February 12 2011 03:46 wBsKillian wrote: I like it the way it is. It just sounds so akward to call a Sentry "protektor". Through this you keep it a bit international, e.g. if my english is really bad I can understand day9s casting, because I know the English unit terms.
Well, my German is terrible and despite English names, I still don't understand shit from the casts.
On February 12 2011 03:34 Iamyournoob wrote: Imagine some one who has never watched a soccer match before and now watches a televised match. He doesn't know what offside is, he doesn't know what a corner kick is, nonetheless it might still be entertaining for him as long as
Still it'll be easier to understand because all those terms actually have an established german counterpart... I think that's where the OP is hinting at, imagine all those things would be english in a germany football commentary "corner kick" instead of "ecke" and stuff.
Most people here know their way around in english but I imagine this would be even more confusing for a person that doesn't know english well (or doesn't know it at all) than the fact that they don't know shit about the rules to begin with.
If I showed my mother some random SC2 VoD by some german caster, not only would it be confusing because she doesn't know crap about how the game works or what it's about, but additionally that guy casting that game throws around english terms like "choke", "push", "natural", "minerals" (ok, you might get that... but still) all the time.
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
Good thread. I love the German language (and how could I not, it's my mother tongue), but I hate it when there's inept people trying to come off as a comedian with their low SES vocabulary and poor grammar. It's just pathetic. I don't blame them, they just do whatever they get paid money for by sponsors enjoy, even if they suck at it. This isn't really a purely German phenomenon, since everyone and their mother is casting games and tourneys these days, 90% of it is trash almost purely by chance. + Show Spoiler [Ranting and Raving] +
Hell, I still don't get why this djWheat guy is getting so much attention when he knows dick about SC2 and his voice is so incredibly obnoxious that I mute every stream he happens to be co-commenting on.
Anyway - the big question is: would I enjoy a 'clean' German cast?... and that is a big question. I don't know, I have yet to witness a German caster produce worthwile material. (Someone listed Apollo as able caster? ... I disagree.)
English is like the de facto standard language of the computer world. That includes Starcraft 2. Every translation of every English named term regarding computers is pretty much made up bullshit. I get furious when I'm forced to use Swedish versions of Windows, Office, and that whenever you install utorrent/VLC from scratch is starts up in Swedish, because of these ridiculous force-translated terms that don't mean anything. You can barely find the settings to change the language back because of these stupid translations.
My point is that the units, maps, etc. all have names. English names. They should not be translated to German or whatever in the first place. Translated software is stupid. It's like if someone (usually old people) calls me Robert instead of Roberto because Robert is the Swedish version of the same name. That really pisses me off.
When it comes to stuff like choke point it's just way easier to just say that. I can't even tell you what a Swedish equivalent would be, and even if I did I would never use it.
I am more of a purist when it comes to languages and dont like it when people mix too much english into their german, resulting in denglish. But in this case I think its a non-issue. Its perfectly ok to use english expressions for units or for game-specific stuff like "drops", "expansion" and so on. Using German expressions might even make it harder for beginners, as they would have to know two different terms. I only dont like it when its overdone, e.g. I heard stuff like "er wurde geforced seine exe zu moven". :D
But I am absolutely sure that the usage of english game-specific terms has no negative effect at all on e-sports in Germany.
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys would still dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster.
Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else.
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys still would dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster.
Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else.
I know that it is about the English words etc. But still, The vocabulary AND the use of English/German is important. As I see it, this thread is also about developing esports in Germany and this isnt possible if the German pendant to day9 is just horrible. I dont want to be too critical and I dont want to talk someone down. I just feel that the German casters are not half as good as the known English speaking ones. Ofc, some are actually good. But I dont wat to derail this thread into some namedropping and assulting people
When you use the english name for a spell, unit or somthing like that its ok. I don't even know the german names. But when casters start to make verbs out of that or use english verbs in german like "moven" or "geforced", it sounds so weird!
btw, about german casters: good commentaries in german with english expressions could be possible...
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
Calling HomerJ the "german pendant" to Day9 is probably the most insulting comparison imagineable.
On February 12 2011 03:42 Shockk wrote: [Do you seriously think you need coherent language to transform a casting of SC2 into something that will transcend the gaming niche? Do you think casts done in english for the english-speaking automatically appeal to everyone instead of just gamers? No, they don't.
The OP made the language responsible for cast being not appealing to new viewers in general. I expanded it to the non-gaming audience.
It's the casters responsibility to pick a target audience and to fit his casting style to their needs. Even a gaming audience with no knowledge about SC need to be educated. I wouldn't suggest the arian aproach, but careful selection of what english terms and what german explanations to use would help to get to whatever target audience.
I think non-english casters have an extremely hard "job", if they wanted to be good (in the way I described). It's not easy to not use the terms you are familiar with from watching english casts and to force yourself to not be the way the OP described (mayority of english terms and some german filler words thrown in to make it into sentences).
I don't think that using the native words of units and maps would change the popularity of esports nor it would be more accepted as a "sport". Because the people who don't play sc2 doesn't know the unit names in any language. For example stalker is called "Hetzer" in german. "hetzer" is not a german word so the unit names are pointless. When you tell a german friend that this unit is called stalke, he would never thought about a german word for this. This is not the only example. How would you translate Xel naga or zerg or so. Even 4 gate (I don't know what the gate is called in german...) It is like any other sport You have terms that are specific to the sport. Like ycheckmate in chess.
Little Edit: The german casters are horrable. Takesen did a very nice job with the homestory cup but i was happy about the engish casting of rotterdam and the other guys.
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
The quality of the casters is a completely different topic. This is about the usage of english expressions. And I am pretty sure you guys still would dislike German casters if they used totally clear German without any English expressions. And Khaldor is an awesome caster.
Btw most Germans are much more critical when they hear stuff in their own language. This applies to pop songs, movies, politicians, casters and basically everything else.
I know that it is about the English words etc. But still, The vocabulary AND the use of English/German is important. As I see it, this thread is also about developing esports in Germany and this isnt possible if the German pendant to day9 is just horrible. I dont want to be too critical and I dont want to talk someone down. I just feel that the German casters are not half as good as the known English speaking ones. Ofc, some are actually good. But I dont wat to derail this thread into some namedropping and assulting people
Lol there is no German pendant to day9. And no, the existence of a caster you dont like does not mean that the development of esport in Germany is impossible. :D A much bigger problem for esports is imo the general attitude in german esports communities. There is too much flaming and a hypercritical attitude towards active contributers like casters instead of just enjoyment of the game. But yeah we are very off-topic indeed, I'm out.
I grew up in Germany, and I was constantly surprised to see how English kept filtering it's self into the language and really this isn't a new thing anymore. From Tomas Gottschalk explaining words like 'Happy' on Wetten Dass, ProSieben's slogan: "We love to entertain you", and just simply everyday life it's all over the place. Some of these English words don't have an exact German equivalent so it becomes only natural that German adopts them, but others are just used because of the spread of American Culture. Starcraft is after all an American game that is derived from a British boardgame and American scifi movies. Does it make sense to hide that fact when talking about it? I know in American one thing people hate about dubbed Anime is the Americanization of things that are uniquely Japanese. Things like Japanese honorifics are ok to leave in because the audience understands it's a Japanese production and is perfectly fine with learning what those things mean. Different cultural elements is part of the appeal of entertainment.
The language is really not the problem here i think. It much more things combined.
1German casters suck at this game I´m sorry if i am offending anyone and yeah even if Kahldor would be in master leauge (wich i doubt he is) he still has a so basic understanding of the game that it almost feels like the way Dustin Browder casted at Blizzcon.Thinks like "He died because he had no units that could shoot up" well not only is that a gross oversimplyfication off the situation it reveals another problem that nearly ALL german casters have
2They are casting this like Football I mean telling me that his roaches attacking this gateway over and over again doesn´t really do anything.They are only saying what people can already see and don´t explain the reason why they are doing it (relating to point 1)Let me give you an example: Day9:"And wee see the protoss player taking an early expansion ,that means he is going to be very defense for the time but when he can hold on to it he is going to be in a good position" German caster" We see has taken that expo also making that gas and scouting with his probe while we see the other player building more Barracks scanning the protoss to see what´s up(not mentioning the implications what so ever)" see the problem there?somebody who does not have a great example does not not what the fuck is going but only that they are building stuff and are doing "amazing micro" (while not knowing WHY or HOW) they just kind of do things and in the end there is a winner.There is no sense of Back and forth when there is no Battle going on.
3They do not take this seriously First i want to say that i am a person who likes it when people show personality,i like people giving their honest opinions at appropriat times BUT how are you going to convince someone that esport is really exciting and something that should be respected when you have these guys (Kahldor Stream as an example)just sitting there and talking like they are just casualy watching a football game on their couch.I mean honestly what would you rather watch THIS:
or ehhh i don´t know this ?
and to be fair they are not the GSL don´t have the funding bla bla bla so what about this:
still looks way more engaging. So i´m sitting here watching these two Archetype Nerds while every once in a while that Bold guy just starts grabbing a bottle of beer and is like sucking on that bottle again like he is at home with his Bro´s ("Kumpels for the Germans") and then then he gets a fucking Cup of Noodles and starts fucking eating it while the other guy is casting AND THEY HAVE A LITTLE SCREEN SHOWING THAT :
I have a question for you how do you expect the audience to care when you are obviously NOT FUCKING CARING.
I went to Germany in my 8th grade... about 16 years ago. It was a school trip and we lived with some German families and I remember how badly they spoke English, so yeah, language is a huge problem for countries which aren't heavily influenced by English from movies and TV series.
The biggest difference between countries like Germany and for instance Norway or Sweden is that we use subtitles for our foreign TV shows, instead of dubbing them like it's being done in Germany. That translates into way better understanding of foreign languages. (Actually only a specific language, English).
As vrok posted earlier, I get a bit annoyed when I have to use translated software. It's often done so badly it gets laughable.
@ Clamev Man its exactly people like you that are the problem. Always complaining, bitching, flaming. The german esport communities are full of your type unfortunately.
On February 12 2011 03:34 Iamyournoob wrote: Imagine some one who has never watched a soccer match before and now watches a televised match. He doesn't know what offside is, he doesn't know what a corner kick is, nonetheless it might still be entertaining for him as long as
Still it'll be easier to understand because all those terms actually have an established german counterpart... I think that's where the OP is hinting at, imagine all those things would be english in a germany football commentary "corner kick" instead of "ecke" and stuff.
We shouldn't look at football, which is "the" sport in Germany (btw: hattrick, pressing?).
Poker: Flop, river, gut-shot, draw, flush, straight, royal Flush, allin, pair, "x high", blind, full house. Yes we have German expressions, but they're not being used (not even on tv).
As long as there isnt a gigantic following we use english terms in almost every sport and most technical fields (ie. computer science).
I therefore dont think it's a big issue when casters use the English unit names / jargon. I do dislike forced expressions, which can be normally expressed in German ("er retreated nun" vs "he retreats" vs "er zieht sich zurück"; "er forced nun vikings" "he forces vikings" "er zwingt ihn zu vikings").
On February 12 2011 04:20 iNViCiOUZ wrote: Because the people who don't play sc2 doesn't know the unit names in any language. For example stalker is called "Hetzer" in german. "hetzer" is not a german word so the unit names are pointless. When you tell a german friend that this unit is called stalke, he would never thought about a german word for this.
This is not the only example. How would you translate Xel naga or zerg or so.
"Zerg" and "Xel'Naga" aren't even English words, they're just words that were specifically made up for Starcraft, so making up an equivalent German word is easy. In these two cases, the words are spelt the same in German, only their pronounciation changes slightly.
Even 4 gate (I don't know what the gate is called in german...) It is like any other sport You have terms that are specific to the sport. Like ycheckmate in chess.
To be honest, I don't know the German words for Gateway or Warpgate either, but your chess example is completely invalid as different languages do indeed have different names for "check mate" and I'm also pretty sure that the term isn't of English origin.
Its could be akin to using Korean originated terms in English speaking games. Like calling someone Gosu or Chobo. I cant write the Korean characters for that, but I know that they mean. And even Blizzard named some achievements Gosu. Players not exposed to Korean gaming would just assume it means the same as uber or something since that is the location of the achievement. Which is right. Koreans, use "gg" or some form of it even though it is derived from english, but not BECAUSE it is english, but because gg is a good mannered way to end the game. I'm sure there are other examples. Like calling a player bonjwa, I'm no Brood War follower, but from how I see it used on the forums, I think it means someone who dominates multiple tournaments. (?)
On February 12 2011 04:39 Zocat wrote: I therefore dont think it's a big issue when casters use the English unit names / jargon. I do dislike forced expressions, which can be normally expressed in German ("er retreated nun" vs "he retreats" vs "er zieht sich zurück"; "er forced nun vikings" "he forces vikings" "er zwingt ihn zu vikings").
I'd like to pick this one out since it gives some good examples of what i mean. Also, thanks for the responses so far, pretty much everyone makes a valid point.
I wish I had a bit more time to answer all of them.
When the chinese community cast the games we have our own set of vocab used for units and spells. Some are direct trans like stalkers. Some are new terms like Protoss magus for Templars. Dogs for lings. And even giving banshee the nick name athena. But all the vocabulary are all in chinese
On February 12 2011 05:33 Blasterion wrote: When the chinese community cast the games we have our own set of vocab used for units and spells. Some are direct trans like stalkers. Some are new terms like Protoss magus for Templars. Dogs for lings. And even giving banshee the nick name athena. But all the vocabulary are all in chinese
And then the chinese casters use terms carried over from Age of Empires (not sure) like houses to refer depots/pylon/overlords and peasants to refer to scvs/probes/drones.
On February 12 2011 05:33 Blasterion wrote: When the chinese community cast the games we have our own set of vocab used for units and spells. Some are direct trans like stalkers. Some are new terms like Protoss magus for Templars. Dogs for lings. And even giving banshee the nick name athena. But all the vocabulary are all in chinese
And then the chinese casters use terms carried over from Age of Empires (not sure) like houses to refer depots/pylon/overlords and peasants to refer to scvs/probes/drones.
We all ovies the flying house. Sand supplybiss is referee as population.
I don't think you thought this out the right way. Example: As you might know, Superbowl took place and you might have watched it on the german television. You might have noticed that they use all special expressions in english, like quarterback, tight end, touchdown, whatever. Why? Because it is the terminology that you use to describe the game best.
Another example: when you do medicine or biology, although there are translations for every muscle and breed, but you use latin to have a united description language.
Actually, in my oppinion, you force the exact opposite of what you want to make happen.
If you try to bring persons alien to esports to it, and you soft-introduce them into german, you let them learn the game twice actually. Because, after they learned what is called what, they can learn it all again once they follow the real competition. Esports is international, if you want people to follow it, introduce them into globality immediately.
There is no actual benefit from completely getting rid of english vocubulary in casts apart from alienating from the game yourself.
a good caster of course would explain those words from time to time. But its important to bring in the terms used for the game as well. Hehe now with the new custom maps some casters forget that they would need to explain the maps a little, advantages disatvantages etc, hope this will return soon as its a perfect way to fill the start of the games. Sigh just wish more casters would be like stoned and uli miss them alot <3.
On February 12 2011 07:07 kazansky wrote: I don't think you thought this out the right way. Example: As you might know, Superbowl took place and you might have watched it on the german television. You might have noticed that they use all special expressions in english, like quarterback, tight end, touchdown, whatever. Why? Because it is the terminology that you use to describe the game best.
Another example: when you do medicine or biology, although there are translations for every muscle and breed, but you use latin to have a united description language.
Actually, in my oppinion, you force the exact opposite of what you want to make happen.
If you try to bring persons alien to esports to it, and you soft-introduce them into german, you let them learn the game twice actually. Because, after they learned what is called what, they can learn it all again once they follow the real competition. Esports is international, if you want people to follow it, introduce them into globality immediately.
There is no actual benefit from completely getting rid of english vocubulary in casts apart from alienating from the game yourself.
I didn't know the Super Bowl was televised outside the United States. Considering all the teams are based in North America I thought it would have caused a disconnect from European, Asian, etc. viewers.
One small thing I'd like to clarify: I agree that the use of some technical terms can probably not be avoided. What I do criticize is the overusage of such terms and the fusion of german and english words and grammar.
Maybe a little thought experiment might help you understand what I mean:
Imagine that you have a Starcraft 2 event with a guaranteed 1 million people that will watch from the beginning. Those people do not know Starcraft 2 and do not speak english. How would you present the event to keep them watching?
german language in it's ability to describe something is far superior to english or french so taking over words like chokepoint is NOT needed nor necessary. You say these words out of lazieness and it sounds stupid. I do not mind taking over specific english unit names because the german translations really are horrible for those.
a mixture of english and german is a nono taking over specified names is fine
stick to this rule and even new people will get quickly used to the game. And I have to agree to the points stated beforehand about german casters. In most cases they suck and lack deeper knowledge of the game leading to a very boring describing style of commentating with barely any explanations.
On February 12 2011 07:58 Blobskillz wrote: a mixture of english and german is a nono taking over specified names is fine
This. German Casters should fokus on that. And I don't know if it is because of the language but German casters don't get me as excited of the game as for example day9 or Tasteless and Artosis
Over time koreans have adopted words from starcraft english and they use the english words for buildings in the castings.. Pactory!!! (factory) Dropshipuu Plaguu
On February 12 2011 08:05 Dubz wrote: Over time koreans have adopted words from starcraft english and they use the english words for buildings in the castings.. Pactory!!! (factory) Dropshipuu Plaguu
did the koreans ever have a korean client for BW? that might be the reasons why they took over those names. And koreans and japanese really sound hilarious when they try to speak english with their syllabe based language in the back of their minds
On February 12 2011 08:05 Dubz wrote: Over time koreans have adopted words from starcraft english and they use the english words for buildings in the castings.. Pactory!!! (factory) Dropshipuu Plaguu
did the koreans ever have a korean client for BW? that might be the reasons why they took over those names. And koreans and japanese really sound hilarious when they try to speak english with their syllabe based language in the back of their minds
lol xD you reminded me of this,
btw the tag for Ghost name means "Ghost" Operative
Same thing everywhere I reckon. Personally I would never ever ever watch a stream casted in Swedish. We brought over day9 for dreamhack, instead of letting some Swedish dude do it in Swedish, even though basically everyone watching was Swedish.
Let the Americans handle the casting imho. Sounds overall better. If you wanna do it in your native language you shouldn't use any English terms whatsoever if there is a language pack for your nation. We don't have a language pack, so I can't even translate "marine", 'cause honestly it's just a soldier in the marine corps.
Very good point, but it does work the opposite way.
For instance I only have a basic grasp of german from doing some in school, however I can follow a "german" cast pretty well as all the important words are in english or gamer speak, so I can understand most of what is being is said and fill in any blanks without too much difficulty.
Indeed it wouldn't be so bad if they only incorporated the English nouns into their repertoire, but the online transformation of English verbs into English verbs with German inflection is just ugly.
It's not something easily avoided though, since the cognitive process of producing 'mixed language output' pretty much prohibits clean online filtering of the mental lexicon.
Loving this thread, really interesting discussion guys. Having never been to Germany myself all the Germans I've met have had quite good English, I wouldn't have thought of Germany as a place where this would be potentially that big of an issue.
Generally any sort of game or sport is going to have a lot of jargon involved. I lived in Japan for a year in college and the university I was at had a big international center with all sorts of students. During the course of that year pretty much all the guys got really into sumo. A fair percentage of the guys had come over with virtually no Japanese language skills, no real interest in learning and were studying abroad just have a year of public drinking and hooking up with asian girls. By the end of the year all those guys still had fairly extensive vocabularies of sumo terms. Sumo terms are for the most part quite literal and can be translated easily into two or three words but even the most embarrassingly stereotypical study abroad American fratboy learned those Japanese terms and used them when speaking with other native English speakers.
So from my experiences (I've seen similar things with people getting into go, sushi, French wine, cigars, somewhat with Korean BroodWar, as well as non-native English speakers getting into American sports) I'm inclined to say that jargon naturally creates a barrier of entry for new enthusiasts of anything but the fact that the jargon is from another language doesn't make it really any more of a barrier.
That being said different languages and cultures have different tolerances for and attitudes towards loanwords in general (a topic I love can you tell) so thanks to all you guys having this discussion in English where I could read it. Will be interesting to see how SC2 as an esport grows and to what degree the scene stays cohesive or fragments and what role language plays in that.
Hate the mixed language, prefer english casts simply because I'm more used to english terminology.
I could probably get used to a pure german cast, just taking over the unit/building names, but most casters mix in english verbs and idioms which makes them sound like 13 year old wannabe nerds.
Germany is just lacking in english. All your games, television shows, books etc... are all in german. Over here(Netherlands) everything is released in english so we have less problems to adapt. Maybe you should start by embracing the language English is the international E sports laguage, it will always stay that way.
It don't think it comes down the English versus German versus Korean versus etc. As others have said, Starcraft has developed almost its own culture that transcends nationalities. Words and phrases that may originate in one part of the world and become popular end up being used by everyone not because they are from a certain language, but because of what the community recognizes they represent.
Overall it is a multinational language developed by the community with bits and pieces of languages from around the world. I think Korean terms and English terms are disproportionately represented because Korea became the nexus of competitive Starcraft and Starcraft was originally developed by a North American developer.
We imbue the word with our own meanings, and as the game ages it develops more and more terms becoming almost its own language you could say. It would certainly be a challenge for any new person to learn a new language, but the beauty is that its meaning is visually represented in the game and more often then not its a very simple or meme like meaning that is easy to remember.
On February 12 2011 09:47 kash2k wrote: There is no problem same thing applies to any sport or even movies.
No? Movies and sports in Germany are exclusively in german language, what are you talking about? Read the op!
Also it needs to be said, that unlike for example the skandinavian countries, Germany is a big market for the entertainment buisness. There's a reason why our movies etc. are dubbed.
After Korea (and maybe China!?) Germany is the largest E-sport country. Obviously casters will be wondering which language to use, hence the problems the op is talking about.
Hehe. Sorry but that's a french and german syndrome. No other nations in western Europe are as bad at english tbh. A great part of it is because these two countries translates everything. TV-series and stuff like that (not just subtitles). In all other countries I've been to except the baltic countries you won't find movies and series translated in TV. Other countries like the original. So that argument is not so valid outside of France and Germany.
And I actually like the German/English. I can easily watch a german stream and understand it :D
I don't know how relevant/useful this is, but having spent a lot of time working in esports (and just playing online games in general) i haven't come across many German players who can't speak at least a decent level of English. Granted, the average isn't as high as Benelux/Scandinavia, but it's always been good enough to communicate with.
I don't really know how much of a problem the translation thing is for your average German, but i find it hard to believe that most of them struggle with "esports English." In my experience, Germans are easily able to deal with non-native terminology. Maybe i'm just not understanding the problem but it feels like the OP is making a mountain out of a molehill with this.
I've always had a bit of an issue with this 'attracting the non-gamer' mentality. It's my opinion that someone who is interested in esports but is still new to it will find websites on their own, or from more experienced friends/clanmates/guildmates/whatever. I don't think many people discover esports through streams, rather they come to the streams after they discover esports. If that is the case, by the time they find livestreams they will surely have a reasonable idea of the hybrid language names for units, no?
Imagine that you have a Starcraft 2 event with a guaranteed 1 million people that will watch from the beginning. Those people do not know Starcraft 2 and do not speak english. How would you present the event to keep them watching?
You have to make sure to keep the other audience as well. The focus isn't just purely on those people that you are talking. Sure, it's best to tend to other audiences, but will you lose in other areas?
Honestly, I don't see why events that have a pretty big European audience just have multiple casters. The nba is broadcasted in over 100 languages.
My Korean friend is actually disappointed that they gave all the SC2 units Korean names such as 'Firebear' for the Marauder, 'construction robot' for SCV, 'worker bug' for drone, etc. In SCBW they simply used the English names (written in the Korean alphabet obviously). I think it'd be easier for everyone to just stick with the English names for units/buildings.
I have the feeling that there is some truth in this complain. I mean its okay when casters are using some english stuff like unit and building names (which is a must imo, because I dont want to think everytime a unit is mentiont) or some basic rts vocabuly (like "push", "cheese", "drop",...) but some casters are overdoing it. I have things in mind like not using the german word for worker, calling an attack a "go" (which in my opinion would even sound dumb in english ^^), making up verbs and so on. Everytime I hear such things I have to facepalm really hard. Why would casters not use the given voc of our language? In the end it should all be about understanding whats going on game and in my opinion using more german expressions would help with this a lot.
On February 12 2011 09:55 Zechs wrote: I don't know how relevant/useful this is, but having spent a lot of time working in esports (and just playing online games in general) i haven't come across many German players who can't speak at least a decent level of English. Granted, the average isn't as high as Benelux/Scandinavia, but it's always been good enough to communicate with.
I don't really know how much of a problem the translation thing is for your average German, but i find it hard to believe that most of them struggle with "esports English." In my experience, Germans are easily able to deal with non-native terminology. Maybe i'm just not understanding the problem but it feels like the OP is making a mountain out of a molehill with this.
I've always had a bit of an issue with this 'attracting the non-gamer' mentality. It's my opinion that someone who is interested in esports but is still new to it will find websites on their own, or from more experienced friends/clanmates/guildmates/whatever. I don't think many people discover esports through streams, rather they come to the streams after they discover esports. If that is the case, by the time they find livestreams they will surely have a reasonable idea of the hybrid language names for units, no?
The problem described in the op is restriced to german viewers. For longtime progaming fans (who are used to "plaguuuuuuu") as ourselves, it's probably not an issue. As a German myself, I absolutely can relate however, since the mixture of german and english (often refered to as "denglish/germlish") makes my ears bleed. To clarify: noone is complaining about carrying over actual names of units and structures. A name is a name, it carries no additional meaning whatsoever. However casters often shoehorn english verbs/idioms into their german casts which sounds extremely awkward (at least to me and the op I guess). It's hard to describe but I'll try to give an equivalent example in english:
"The Stalkers verprügeln the Zweitbasis like hell. Netter Zug by GamerX..."
The problem described in the op is restriced to german viewers. For longtime progaming fans (who are used to "plaguuuuuuu") as ourselves, it's probably not an issue. As a German myself, I absolutely can relate however, since the mixture of german and english (often refered to as "denglish/germlish") makes my ears bleed. To clarify: noone is complaining about carrying over actual names of units and structures. A name is a name, it carries no additional meaning whatsoever. However casters often shoehorn english verbs/idioms into their german casts which sounds extremely awkward (at least to me and the op I guess). It's hard to describe but I'll try to give an equivalent example in english:
"The Stalkers verprügeln the Zweitbasis like hell. Netter Zug by GamerX..."
I got to say that I am rather surprised with the success of German casters who are casting in German rather than in English. I never would have thought that HomerJ would have this many subscribers and live viewers. That is why I don't really see the problem. If someone wants to understand the game he will sooner or later watch English vods anyways. I see the German casters more as people who make the barrier to watching English stuff easier, rather than making it harder for the audience that has absolutely no idea what is going on. I could even go so far as to say that mixing in English jargon is one of the things that make the German casters successful. If they tried to hard to avoid slang, nobody might watch. The slang used might not be the most aesthetic thing ever, but doesn't reduce the entertainment.
I need to learn more languages....I know english and can get by in spanish but everyone here (at least EU people) seem to multilingual. And good at being multilingual at that. Bah.
Tbh I've never listened to a German cast that hasn't made me cringe, both because of the awkwardness of mixing the two languages and because most German casters seem to speak the kind of German you usually find in talk shows and Big Brother.
On February 12 2011 09:47 kash2k wrote: There is no problem same thing applies to any sport or even movies.
No? Movies and sports in Germany are exclusively in german language, what are you talking about? Read the op!
Also it needs to be said, that unlike for example the skandinavian countries, Germany is a big market for the entertainment buisness. There's a reason why our movies etc. are dubbed.
After Korea (and maybe China!?) Germany is the largest E-sport country. Obviously casters will be wondering which language to use, hence the problems the op is talking about.
Honestly, I think countries like Germany and France are too stubborn in translating everything to their own language. People should accept that the general vocabulary for entertainment is in English and roll with that. Since practically nothing in the Netherlands gets translated to Dutch we've learned from a much younger age to speak English. To this day I thank Cartoon Network for my knowledge of the English language.
Even Korean casters use english terms in their BW commentary: pectory, playgu, reebu, keanu reeves. It's just something that needs to be abridgded by adapting.
"The Stalkers verprügeln the Zweitbasis like hell. Netter Zug by GamerX..." I hope that's not an actual quote xD From my experience (which is limited mainly to countless hours of listening to Khaldor) German casters do use a lot of English vocabulary. However, for the most part, I not only like the usage of English vocabulary, but actually think that it's neccessary simply because this is the standard gaming terminology. As a casual viewer you have to get acquainted with the names of units/buildings/strategies anyway, so it doesn't really matter if you learn the English or the German words. Another reason why I prefer "Denglish" casting is because normally this makes the commentary more "fluent", since German includes so many long expressions that take so long to be said... On rare occasions, though, I have to agree that German casters might use some English expression in such a comical manner that saying it in German would have made a whole lot more sense (this applies mainly to verbs).
Like many said in this thread i think it's important for the german caster to stick to the english words otherwise it would be way to akward since the majority of young people that are going to watch sc2 is used to english as the international/internet language #1. The scandinavian and netherland people speak overall a better english due to the issues named here like subtitling. But on the other hand in many countrys like french/germany/italy/spain where the overall engslish skills are worse you encourage young nerds to learn more english with this mixed up casting. They know certain terminologys and more likely going to unterstand english websites and castings. In my personal experience i had the same "way". I started playing english games and went on to listening english casts/movies etc.
On February 12 2011 09:47 kash2k wrote: There is no problem same thing applies to any sport or even movies.
No? Movies and sports in Germany are exclusively in german language, what are you talking about? Read the op!
Also it needs to be said, that unlike for example the skandinavian countries, Germany is a big market for the entertainment buisness. There's a reason why our movies etc. are dubbed.
After Korea (and maybe China!?) Germany is the largest E-sport country. Obviously casters will be wondering which language to use, hence the problems the op is talking about.
Honestly, I think countries like Germany and France are too stubborn in translating everything to their own language. People should accept that the general vocabulary for entertainment is in English and roll with that. Since practically nothing in the Netherlands gets translated to Dutch we've learned from a much younger age to speak English. To this day I thank Cartoon Network for my knowledge of the English language.
Even Korean casters use english terms in their BW commentary: pectory, playgu, reebu, keanu reeves. It's just something that needs to be abridgded by adapting.
I envy you dutch people for the fact that you don't have dubbed TV. Most of the translated TV shows and movies from english speaking countrys suck in german. In my mind it just sounds wrong, that's why I have to rely on streams and the internet to watch movies the way they're meant to be watched. Same issue with pc-games and to some extend books. And when Blizzard started to translate names from Warcraft lore(Sometime during Burning Crusade expansion of World of Warcraft), my eyes started to bleed... Anyway I haven't watched any german casts since early beta just because of the fact that there are no talented casters imho. But respect to guys like Forsti.Henning who has casted some games in english even thou it's not his native language. Some things are not meant to be translated!
I do not like the "denglish" at all. English unit names and starcraft slang is ok but by the love of god, stuff like "forcen" or other germanized verbs make me cringe. Don't butcher the language!
In generel i really dont see any problems concerning this topic. In esports its not avoidable to use no english term. Which means that non english casters HAVE to cast in a hybrid way (eg. german english), since all the technical terms etc. are simply in english language. This is the same for LOTS of other sports, like darts (i dont want to have every expression translated like "bulls eye, double out, etc etc"), snooker and many more.. Those expressions dont need to be replaced by a "local expression". If u want to have everything translated u should watch once french television. its awefull, they have an own expression for all the poker moves.. (is it that hard to keep "call, check, fold? )
And the fact that some german casters even use english gramar (not only the appropriate expressions) just shows that they should learn how to cast games.. imho germany only has very few casters which all really need to improve. This is not only because of they strange gramar but also because of their massiv lack of sc2 knowledge.
I think we have to look at this problem within a certain context.
Imagine for a second that there were no SC2 scene anywhere except Germany, but the German scene were rather big. SC2 is still an English-language game and all the unit and building names are of English origin, but all the vocabulary that arises for casting and such is then purely German. This was clearly the case in Korea, where they still used Korean-ized versions of the English names but developed/adopted Korea vocabulary to describe the strategies and actions. The thing Korea also had going for it is that it wasn't influenced by the foreign scene very much (I don't really know, I could be wrong) in terms of casting.
When you look at Germany though, it is entering into a much more integrated global scene where the biggest casters (HD, Husky, Day9, tastosis etc.) cast in English and can reach a very wide audience among educated, bilingual European gamers. The reason the German scene has problems effectively developing its own vocabulary is because of the "cultural" weight that casters from other scenes are bringing to bear on the yet-undeveloped German scene.
As other posters have pointed out with the Khaldor vs. HomerJ issue, German casters haven't set their OWN model for casting, they're trying to emulate what the foreigners do. There simply hasn't been enough time or space between the German and the larger English-speaking scene for the former to go through a process of natural growth and adaptation - it's stifled by the weight of the foreign scene.
I don't think it is necessary to translate technical terms of the game. I would even say, that you should not do this, because it would only cause more confusion in the long run. But a caster could perhaps explain some jargon from time to time.
What I do dislike, are all those normal english words, which are just thrown into a german sentence. When, in most cases, you could just translate them to one normal german word. There are enough examples posted in this thread already and I can totaly understand the people that hate them. I can't stand listen to it, because for me it sounds awkward.
All those sports examples given in this thread are actually interesting. Because if you listen to things like US sports, snooker or darts on german television, of cause there is all the english terminology. But you will find them used in proper german sentences without any strange made up words. And I don't see why this should not be possible with gaming content.
I am 150% in agreement with the OP. This mix of german and english is awful AND it might cause difficulties with technical terms. ALL of the german casters (and some english ones from the ESL like Rotterdam) say "slide" to a Maynard Transfer. Slide isnt translated as transfer into german (transfer [eng] = transfer [ger], slide = rutschen) and they could easily use other words to describe it. Thus I sense some danger for the understanding in a difference of meaning of some technical terms. Being exact in your words is very very important if you want others to understand you (check my signature).
In addition to the difficulties with technical terms it also sounds awful having 20% of a sentence in a different language, but I guess cool kids want to sound cool. This whole "english is the cooler language" trend isnt restricted to Starcraft or eSports, but a general trend in the society. If you want to get a phone contract with the "Deutsche Telekom" ALL of these deals have english names like "Call & Surf Comfort", "Entertain Comfort", "Complete Mobil XL" (Mobil is surprisingly a german word) ... Needless to say I would really love to whip the guys who came up with these names and their superiors through town with a wet towel, because it is idiots like these who are making sure that the german language is endangered. I really love english, but mixing up both is really really bad.
On February 12 2011 09:37 FisHKinG wrote: Germany is just lacking in english. All your games, television shows, books etc... are all in german. Over here(Netherlands) everything is released in english so we have less problems to adapt. Maybe you should start by embracing the language English is the international E sports laguage, it will always stay that way.
Nope ... its people who are lacking the will to learn this rather easy language and this results in such embarrassments like Take - no offense, but I think we all agree that your english isnt what it should be - doing awful english interviews in english at the IEM Gamescom. Perfecting your knowledge of english (or another language) is rather easy after a basic start: Just get books on a topic which you understand well and read 2-3 hours each day. You will learn the grammar without requiring these awful technical terms which we all know from school. One of my english teachers at school once said: "You dont need to know what every word in a sentence means, you just need to know the meaning of the sentence. The meaning of the word comes on its own that way."
Either you learn the language OR you acknowledge your own ignorance and stop trying to use it. Thats what I would say to using any non-native language.
I speak english and german almost equally well. I much prefer to listen to english casters usually because some german casters give me the creeps. Why?
There are two kinds of english terms that you can use in a german commentary - unit names - normal words
using english unit names is perfecly fine with me. The german terms sometimes sound awkward and the english ones are easier to identify
the problem for me is when german casters use english terms when there are perfectly good german words they can use. This turns the casting language into the kind of denglish that i hate.
Example for these words are game, match - spiel choke - engpass income - einkommen fight - kampf
I did not read it entirely, but I talked with (won't name them) some people who are really following E-gaming across europa as a TV team. Making serious reportage and streams, they work with the biggest tournaments etc.
What I undetsod from them, German organizers are stubborn and ignorant in some terms because they always want a german stream/cast even when the tournament itself is global. The tournament with Day9 in germany was close to only be casted by germans for example.
I hate when tournaments have their native language... I just see no reason for it. Only when it's a small nationwide tournament or mostly 95% native players do I find it acceptable. Even Sweden has some trouble with this but we're getting much better.
I personally like a good german cast, but i switch to the english ones, if the caster speaks denglish (mix of german and english). It just sounds stupid and hurts my ears ^^. But that's just me. If denglish hurts esports in general is difficult to say, but i agree that it propably sounds very strange and geeky to a lot of people.
in 30 to 100 years a lot of languages will have at least 30..60% english words. This is a process which has started in the 80/90s and has gained speed because of the internet and will continue. This is not because of gaming, but because in many areas of society and work especially in europe you need to read and speak english at work a lot. For my daily work i have to talk to english, americans, czech, indian, belgian, french, rumanian and some dutch people .. so everybody starts speaking english (with some nice german, czech and french throw-in words :-) ). I often have no german exact translation to some english word at hand nowadays, so i use the english word .. and that's the way it spreads out.
there shouldn't be german casts in the first place. Everybody can understand casters casting in english even if they are not that good at speaking english. Normally in casts you don't need to be that good at speaking english so that people know what you mean (it's only natural that an american/british caster will have better pronunciation than a german caster).
And btw, casters with german version of Starcraft 2 are possible the worst thing I've seen so far. What the hell is a "Brutschleimpool".. it's a frickin spawning pool.
On February 12 2011 18:07 Markus138 wrote: there shouldn't be german casts in the first place. Everybody can understand casters casting in english even if they are not that good at speaking english. Normally in casts you don't need to be that good at speaking english so that people know what you mean (it's only natural that an american/british caster will have better pronunciation than a german caster).
And btw, casters with german version of Starcraft 2 are possible the worst thing I've seen so far. What the hell is a "Brutschleimpool".. it's a frickin spawning pool.
i really enjoy it .. i find the mix of english and german funny and make use of it outside of SC.
Most people here are deluded in regards to non-english communities.
Why would Russian casters start casting in English if they have more viewers than any usual English tourney? (I think same case with Germany)
People have to realize eSport wont become global until regions have a strong culture to it.
SC2 and eSport become culture in Korea not because they tried to copy "English", they found the way to create the bond between people and games. And for every country it's different.
I'm from Germany and extremely annoyed by this. All your points are correct. Everytime I watch for example Khaldor cast I frown a little every time he uses an English word that has a perfect German equivalent. Still, it is not bad to call the units by their English names. The over-use of words like map, go, nice, harvesters, army, "spreaden", fight, units, down etc. is just meaningless. German casters speak only about 50% German, but they are imho often times better than these bored english-speaking casters.
There were some casters who tried to cast purely in German. Guess what, they were flamed into oblivion. However, casters that do that are mostly noobs (silver/platinum) in the first place. It's somewhat weird to listen to the German unit names. The only one who sometimes uses German names while (co-)casting and doesn't sound like a total noob is... TLO.
I don't agree with the posters that say they use English names because they want to sound cool or try to show off. The reason English names are used is because SC2 players are not divided by country borders but by server regions. When you talk about SC2, you talk English. When you read about SC2, you read on TL which is... English. So it's only natural to speak in English when speaking about SC2.
About "unprofessionalism": I never understand these comments. It seems some people think eSports is only about professionalism. Especially by American users, the term "production value" emerges over and over. They think that for eSports to happen, the first thing they have to do is throw money at it, have the biggest production value of all and force Tasteless to not make jokes. For what? I want to see great games by great players and I don't care how expensive that jacket is the caster is wearing. How is making eSports look like an auction at Sotheby's making eSports bigger? German eSports organizations (ESL, Freaks4u) have been around for years and know how to cater the needs of their target audience while the oh so professional eSports organizers like the CPL and CGS ceased to exist until the only NA organization left is the MLG.
On February 12 2011 17:30 Krehlmar wrote: I hate when tournaments have their native language... I just see no reason for it. Only when it's a small nationwide tournament or mostly 95% native players do I find it acceptable. Even Sweden has some trouble with this but we're getting much better.
I agree that Sweden has the same issues, the broken Swedish that comes from Swedish casters are horrible, but their broken English have similiar issues. At dreamhack, I don't think many would dispute this, day9s commentary was way superior to the Swedish cast. Of course most Swedes understand English pretty well and the Swedish cast doesn't seem necessary to most. But when broadcasting esports on national tv many people not used to a casted e-sport might be scared off by the foreign langauge, but equally they are very likely to be appelled by a broken native langauge.
I essence I believe that it is a qustion of growth for the esport; you don't watch the FIFA World Cup in a foreign language, do you (well most of your nation probably don't)? The broken language will be corrected with time and practice and the path there will be filled with painfully embarrising hybrid vocabulary and grammar. When national tv broadcasts will emerge, they will probably contain a huge portion of the native langauge (as it did at dreamhack for swedes when SVT broadcasted online), the language will be broken but will mature with time.
Ideally I would like officiall broadcasts of the most competitive games (such as major lan events) broadcasted by commentator super stars (like day9) on national tv (and to the wide international audience), until the native speaking casters have enough experience to do it well (and to get that practice I hope they cast streams (viking cup) and in addition to the main cast on big events: educational vids, interviews, news and coverage).
edit: and I feel listening to a Swedish Counter-Strike cast is not as weird as listening to a Swedish SC cast - it's a more mature adaptation of the terms used in the game.
On February 12 2011 09:47 kash2k wrote: There is no problem same thing applies to any sport or even movies.
No? Movies and sports in Germany are exclusively in german language, what are you talking about? Read the op!
Also it needs to be said, that unlike for example the skandinavian countries, Germany is a big market for the entertainment buisness. There's a reason why our movies etc. are dubbed.
After Korea (and maybe China!?) Germany is the largest E-sport country. Obviously casters will be wondering which language to use, hence the problems the op is talking about.
Honestly, I think countries like Germany and France are too stubborn in translating everything to their own language. People should accept that the general vocabulary for entertainment is in English and roll with that. Since practically nothing in the Netherlands gets translated to Dutch we've learned from a much younger age to speak English. To this day I thank Cartoon Network for my knowledge of the English language.
Even Korean casters use english terms in their BW commentary: pectory, playgu, reebu, keanu reeves. It's just something that needs to be abridgded by adapting.
This isnt something which concerns eSports only or XXX only. The whole german society is slowly switching to Denglish as a language because it supposedly sounds cooler or more international. This is BAD for any society because you slowly lose your own culture and identity. Personally I prefer having the choice, but if we "internationalize" everything this will be bad for our future.
If you understand german and listen to Khaldor it is really a mix of german and english and NOT restricted to technical terms. I could agree with having him call a Stalker that way when he is casting, but here are some examples of his mixed language which involve no technical terms (english words / partial words in bold): - Da kommt der go. - Nice. - gefoddert. - runtercallen. - Ich werd' mich dann um das game bemühen. - Da geht die drone down. - Straight hier hoch. Its a lot of mixed english and german and sucks to listen to (well if you are bothered by such idiocy which endangers the language). Especially Khaldors mixed denglish words are bad.
The reason why such a mix is bad is quite simple. Language is the key to being understood by other people. If people are "getting used to" their own type of slang they will have problems getting a job where they need to communicat with customers / other people. Do you think that any "yo-dudes" will be found in a high class hotel serving other people? Probably not and thus they are restricted to "yo-dude ghettos".
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
i agree completely, that could have been my own post.. most german casters are horrible imo, i recently watched a "daily" of the german pendant to Day9 - HomerJ - and it sounded just awful to me.
Calling HomerJ the "german pendant" to Day9 is probably the most insulting comparison imagineable.
i was not talking about the quality of his dailies, more about the way he tries to do what day9 does in his dailies - the deep analysis.
khaldor is imo by far the best german caster, and it still sounds supernerdy to me when he mixes up german with english sc2 expressions. it just feels awkward... as example: he always says "zerg" in the english pronounciation, except for just using the german pronounciation. on the other hand i'm glad that he uses the english names of the units, like stalkers (=Hetzer) or Zealots(=Berserker).
it's just weird to listen to a mix between german and english, so i prefer a good all-english cast over any german cast.
On February 12 2011 04:29 Clamev wrote: The language is really not the problem here i think. It much more things combined.
1German casters suck at this game I´m sorry if i am offending anyone and yeah even if Kahldor would be in master leauge (wich i doubt he is) he still has a so basic understanding of the game that it almost feels like the way Dustin Browder casted at Blizzcon.Thinks like "He died because he had no units that could shoot up" well not only is that a gross oversimplyfication off the situation it reveals another problem that nearly ALL german casters have
2They are casting this like Football I mean telling me that his roaches attacking this gateway over and over again doesn´t really do anything.They are only saying what people can already see and don´t explain the reason why they are doing it (relating to point 1)Let me give you an example: Day9:"And wee see the protoss player taking an early expansion ,that means he is going to be very defense for the time but when he can hold on to it he is going to be in a good position" German caster" We see has taken that expo also making that gas and scouting with his probe while we see the other player building more Barracks scanning the protoss to see what´s up(not mentioning the implications what so ever)" see the problem there?somebody who does not have a great example does not not what the fuck is going but only that they are building stuff and are doing "amazing micro" (while not knowing WHY or HOW) they just kind of do things and in the end there is a winner.There is no sense of Back and forth when there is no Battle going on.
3They do not take this seriously First i want to say that i am a person who likes it when people show personality,i like people giving their honest opinions at appropriat times BUT how are you going to convince someone that esport is really exciting and something that should be respected when you have these guys (Kahldor Stream as an example)just sitting there and talking like they are just casualy watching a football game on their couch.I mean honestly what would you rather watch THIS:
or ehhh i don´t know this ?
and to be fair they are not the GSL don´t have the funding bla bla bla so what about this:
still looks way more engaging. So i´m sitting here watching these two Archetype Nerds while every once in a while that Bold guy just starts grabbing a bottle of beer and is like sucking on that bottle again like he is at home with his Bro´s ("Kumpels for the Germans") and then then he gets a fucking Cup of Noodles and starts fucking eating it while the other guy is casting AND THEY HAVE A LITTLE SCREEN SHOWING THAT :
I have a question for you how do you expect the audience to care when you are obviously NOT FUCKING CARING.
that makes me an angry angry Germany I:<
its not beer, its wildfire energy drink.. an sponsor of mystarcraft.. and i rather listen to khaldor who is known since 10 years + for his crazy casting, than to such idiots like "homerj"
Maybe the issue is not so much the language of German casters, but the viewers feeling embarassed. "Fremdschämen" anybody? I think a lack of self-confidence on part of the viewership plays a big part in this. Don´t get me wrong, I´m not calling out anybody here, but it´s the feeling I get from discussions like this. The viewers don´t want to feel embarassed, but then, there actually is no reason for that... it´s self-induced. Though I may be talking out of my ass.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Exactly that ... it shoudlnt be. If you extrapolate that into the future german will cease to exist at some time.
So what? That doesn't matter at all. Who cares what we speak as long as we understand eachother? The german that was spoken here 200 years ago is completely different from the one spoken today. Who cares about that? Right, nobody.
That is useless traditionalism.
On the topic: Everyone in the world should use the original english terms for everything in Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 related. It creates an even platform to communicate about things even for players who don't speak english that well.
Sometimes I hear polish casters, or french casters or whatever, and I still understand what's going on because sometimes they use english terms!
On February 12 2011 03:12 coma wrote: Edit: I confused Starcraft 2 with esports in general, so this probably should get moved. Sorry about that.
Hi, I'd like to address a few issues i see with the progress of esports in Germany, especially concerning the style of casting and the language involved.
Before I begin with my argument, I would like to state that I want to see esports (specifically Starcraft 2) succeed in the non-english speaking countries. I do not know how this is handled by casters in other countries than Germany but I believe that the issues may have a mutual origin being the commonly accepted language in the gaming community, english.
Ok, lets get to the statement:
The language used by most (if not all) german casters (a hybrid of german and english) acts as a major hindrance for people to get attracted to esports and therefore the success of esports on a larger scale in Germany.
Let me elaborate a bit on the language part: (This got quite big) If you are a common gamer and also speak a bit of english, you will probably prefer to play games in their original language (same applies with watching movies or series). Doing this and watching tournaments and casts on english, you will familiarize yourself with the english vocabulary used.
If you now engage in a discussion with someone in german you will have the problem that you can't name the units and abilities and that you are accustomed to the english terms for pretty much everything happening in the game. What would happen now is a stuttering conversation, since you would have to translate all the english words over to german. This may take quite a long time depending on the word. Just to show an example: "choke point" should be translated to "Engpass". I actually had to look that up myself.
Now, since the guy you're talking to is usually also exposed to a similar amount of english content and the discussion would be impractical and seem silly if you always thought for a few seconds before going on, you just do the easy thing and use the english term. You are now able to finish the discussion. The problem is that you just invented a fuckton of new words to accustom to the german flow of speech and that someone listening to your conversation will be fucking weirded out and not understand a thing you are saying.
Of course this doesn't matter to the common gamer.
Now, I wanted to talk about the development of esports in Germany in relation to this new language.
The moment this language becomes awkward is when you try to explain something about the game to someone who is actually playing games on german or, in the "extreme" case, doesn't play any games and/or does not speak any english. While the gamer may actually incorporate the "Denglish" words into his language, the "normal" guy will probably ask you to talk in german to him or just give you the nerdstamp.
What I want to see is successful esport-events in Germany, with a big audience. The people currently doing the casting in german unintentionally stop this from happening by alienating anyone that does not speak their artificial language. If nothing changes about this, the german scene will likely stagnate at the point where it is now.
I am really interested in the opinion of other people on this , so please tell me what you think.
Note: Of course I could be wrong with this. It could very well be that we will see huge televised tournaments casted in germany, casted in "Denglish". However, I neither see that happening nor would I personally watch something like that.
On February 12 2011 04:39 Zocat wrote: I therefore dont think it's a big issue when casters use the English unit names / jargon. I do dislike forced expressions, which can be normally expressed in German ("er retreated nun" vs "he retreats" vs "er zieht sich zurück"; "er forced nun vikings" "he forces vikings" "er zwingt ihn zu vikings").
I'd like to pick this one out since it gives some good examples of what i mean. Also, thanks for the responses so far, pretty much everyone makes a valid point.
I wish I had a bit more time to answer all of them.
One small thing I'd like to clarify: I agree that the use of some technical terms can probably not be avoided. What I do criticize is the overusage of such terms and the fusion of german and english words and grammar.
Maybe a little thought experiment might help you understand what I mean:
Imagine that you have a Starcraft 2 event with a guaranteed 1 million people that will watch from the beginning. Those people do not know Starcraft 2 and do not speak english. How would you present the event to keep them watching?
There is a similar trend in France, not to mention South Korea "Protossuhh Huh Psio stormuhh etc...". As my German is not that good, I don't find it awkward, but I know what you feel as they are a lot of French commentators using English words/expressions all the time which make me cringe.
I believe that South koreans only use the english word for units/spells, and use the korean word for everything else (no choke point/natural whatever), this I guess is the best compromise. But the real issue imo is that most of the German/French, particulary the French, commentators don't exactly seem to be fund of German/French litterature and are too accustomed to speak English (for instance here on TL, or on BNet) when talking about the game thus their expressions don't seem to be a really thought out way of discussing the game, rather a bad habit that they are not able to forget when commentating.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
On February 12 2011 03:29 Sewi wrote: As a german I totally see what you mean. Talking about SC2 with friends in public environment makes you look like a serious stupid nerd. To others you may sound like you want to be cool by using English words etc but translating these things to German sounds even more stupid to those who actually play the game...
The problem this brings is the following: (I can only speak for myself but I am pretty sure that a lot of other German players think like that)
- I completely ignore German SC related websites - I cannot stand 90% of the German casters (This is partly because of the Denglish but also because some of them just have a terrible language usage even in their L1 - I dont feel as a part of the German SC2 community at all
^
this is so true. i only watch english stream, it's just more original.. i don't even like khaldor :D
On February 12 2011 22:36 Zocat wrote: I think it may be appropiate to throw some numbers around. Assembly is on atm, 2.30pm in Germany (so almost no NA watchers):
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
So where is the problem? German streams for German people. We shouldn't be losing English streams in favour of German.
On February 12 2011 21:36 Daswollvieh wrote: Maybe the issue is not so much the language of German casters, but the viewers feeling embarassed. "Fremdschämen" anybody? I think a lack of self-confidence on part of the viewership plays a big part in this. Don´t get me wrong, I´m not calling out anybody here, but it´s the feeling I get from discussions like this. The viewers don´t want to feel embarassed, but then, there actually is no reason for that... it´s self-induced. Though I may be talking out of my ass.
That is a smart observation i would agree with but it does not change the fact that better casting would not make the viewer feel uncomfortable. "da forcte er ihn zum retreat" is a really akward phrase for me and when i hear it i don't wish for it to not affect me but for the caster to not use it. I'm totally ok with technical expressions.
In my opinion the problem with german streaming is, that there are literally NO real casters. We got Take, HomerJ, Khaldor and so on. They might be somehow entertaining to some people, but they are no casters at all. Look at DJWHEAT, Day9, Totalbiscuit. They know how to entertain people just by talking. They learned it. May it be working at a radio station, doing casts for over 10 years, having studied or whatever. The german ones are just usual guys that sat down, set up a stream and started like"oh i see a banshee. he is getting a collossi out. they are engaging. close fight. x lost the game." and that didnt change at all since beginning of beta. And this is not entertaining to me at all. Imagine sports like soccer and the caster is actually your friend that just describes what he sees. Thats just like german casting is right now.
On February 12 2011 22:36 Zocat wrote: I think it may be appropiate to throw some numbers around. Assembly is on atm, 2.30pm in Germany (so almost no NA watchers):
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
So where is the problem? German streams for German people. We shouldn't be losing English streams in favour of German.
Why does this post even exist?
Some people questioned if there is enough of an audience for German casts, because "every gamer knows English anyway" (and therefor implying that this whole discussion isnt neccessary). My post was to proof that there is an audience which is big enough.
But tell my, where do you read from my post that we should lose English streams in favour of German ones? I never said such a thing.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
No i don't find english words irritating nor do they make me angry. The american language has adapted some german words too and it's far better to use words than force a translation, this would sound even more horrible. Imagine if he used "Hetzer" or "Berstlinge" and other failed translations, for "Ghost" there isn't even a translation. I cannot understand how this can be anything more than mildly disturbing, let alone irritating enough to make a thread about it.
If he casted only english i'd be happy with it.
I also read Clamevs post and honestly i didn't know if the whole thing was written ironically, because most points he cries about aren't valid in my opinion. I don't want german casters to be like american casters and i don't care if they are a bit sloppier. They do their thing and there are plenty of other casters to watch so you do not have to take the time and complain about one stream you do not like.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Exactly that ... it shoudlnt be. If you extrapolate that into the future german will cease to exist at some time.
So what? That doesn't matter at all. Who cares what we speak as long as we understand eachother? The german that was spoken here 200 years ago is completely different from the one spoken today. Who cares about that? Right, nobody.
That is useless traditionalism.
On the topic: Everyone in the world should use the original english terms for everything in Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 related. It creates an even platform to communicate about things even for players who don't speak english that well.
Sometimes I hear polish casters, or french casters or whatever, and I still understand what's going on because sometimes they use english terms!
As I explained in a post above our german casters do not limit themselves to using the english technical terms - which I am not opposed to - but they are also using english words and mixed german-english words when there are german words available which could do the same job. Thats just so they sound cooler.
Caring about language is NOT useless traditionalism, because only a small part of the population is actually caring about eSports. If these people change "their version of german" by adding in these misused but cool sounding english words they will actually start having problems communicating with others outside the eSports fan community. Thats where it becomes a problem for those kids when they want to find jobs, simply because they arent fluent in "real german" anymore.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
No i don't find english words irritating nor do they make me angry. The american language has adapted some german words too and it's far better to use words than force a translation, this would sound even more horrible. Imagine if he used "Hetzer" or "Berstlinge" and other failed translations, for "Ghost" there isn't even a translation. I cannot understand how this can be anything more than mildly disturbing, let alone irritating enough to make a thread about it.
If he casted only english i'd be happy with it.
I also read Clamevs post and honestly i didn't know if the whole thing was written ironically, because most points he cries about aren't valid in my opinion. I don't want german casters to be like american casters and i don't care if they are a bit sloppier. They do their thing and there are plenty of other casters to watch so you do not have to take the time and complain about one stream you do not like.
Adding german words to english has only happened when there was no equivalent english word already. Our dear "german" casters are using english words when there are german words to use ... just to sound cooler. That is quite a difference.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
No i don't find english words irritating nor do they make me angry. The american language has adapted some german words too and it's far better to use words than force a translation, this would sound even more horrible. Imagine if he used "Hetzer" or "Berstlinge" and other failed translations, for "Ghost" there isn't even a translation. I cannot understand how this can be anything more than mildly disturbing, let alone irritating enough to make a thread about it.
If he casted only english i'd be happy with it.
I also read Clamevs post and honestly i didn't know if the whole thing was written ironically, because most points he cries about aren't valid in my opinion. I don't want german casters to be like american casters and i don't care if they are a bit sloppier. They do their thing and there are plenty of other casters to watch so you do not have to take the time and complain about one stream you do not like.
Adding german words to english has only happened when there was no equivalent english word already. Our dear "german" casters are using english words when there are german words to use ... just to sound cooler. That is quite a difference.
But that's not only for eSports, i use words like "sweet" and "nice" regularly, that's normal slang. And everyone says "cool". Got no problem with that, but this discussion is probably in the wrong place here and should be adressed at linguists?!
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
No i don't find english words irritating nor do they make me angry. The american language has adapted some german words too and it's far better to use words than force a translation, this would sound even more horrible. Imagine if he used "Hetzer" or "Berstlinge" and other failed translations, for "Ghost" there isn't even a translation. I cannot understand how this can be anything more than mildly disturbing, let alone irritating enough to make a thread about it.
If he casted only english i'd be happy with it.
I also read Clamevs post and honestly i didn't know if the whole thing was written ironically, because most points he cries about aren't valid in my opinion. I don't want german casters to be like american casters and i don't care if they are a bit sloppier. They do their thing and there are plenty of other casters to watch so you do not have to take the time and complain about one stream you do not like.
Adding german words to english has only happened when there was no equivalent english word already. Our dear "german" casters are using english words when there are german words to use ... just to sound cooler. That is quite a difference.
But that's not only for eSports, i use words like "sweet" and "nice" regularly, that's normal slang. And everyone says "cool". Got no problem with that, but this discussion is probably in the wrong place here and should be adressed at linguists?!
I think Rabiator is talking about verbs like "moven" "casten" "attacken" "retreaten" "forcen". You take normal English verbs (move, cast, attack, retreat) which have normal German translations (which would make sense) and conjugate them following German grammar rules.
I think something like "cheese" isnt a big problem for him (i assume) though we could use 'bärtig'.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Let me try to explain better by giving an example:
You are a nerd (probably) and thus most likely love
Since you live in germany you might have encountered
But do you think a combination of both (a "Schnitzelpizza") is good? Personally I think it is an abomination and I would like to apologize to all the Italians out there for any germans who actually cook, sell and eat these things. Just take half of one of your own "national foods" and then put that on a pizza and check is you like the thought of it.
I have nothing against english, I have nothing against german. I just hate mixing them up, because that means the person doing it isnt able to switch between the two and will - most likely - always have problems with either of them. You really hear from some germans that they are translating sentences word by word into english and that sounds totally awful, because you would need to have a different order of words in that sentence.
Personally I would love to have more original versions of movies in our television, simply because they have a much better sound quality. Even subtitles hurt more than they help because they distract from the stuff going on on the screen. I am a big Jane Austen fan and there are a lot of good BBC movies of her books (1). The german translations are very very horrible though and full of mistakes in their translations an sometimes even saying the complete opposite at important parts of the dialogue. (1) No idea about the quality of the translation for Hollywood movies, because they are usually terribly bad in comparison to the BBC ones.
No i don't find english words irritating nor do they make me angry. The american language has adapted some german words too and it's far better to use words than force a translation, this would sound even more horrible. Imagine if he used "Hetzer" or "Berstlinge" and other failed translations, for "Ghost" there isn't even a translation. I cannot understand how this can be anything more than mildly disturbing, let alone irritating enough to make a thread about it.
If he casted only english i'd be happy with it.
I also read Clamevs post and honestly i didn't know if the whole thing was written ironically, because most points he cries about aren't valid in my opinion. I don't want german casters to be like american casters and i don't care if they are a bit sloppier. They do their thing and there are plenty of other casters to watch so you do not have to take the time and complain about one stream you do not like.
Adding german words to english has only happened when there was no equivalent english word already. Our dear "german" casters are using english words when there are german words to use ... just to sound cooler. That is quite a difference.
But that's not only for eSports, i use words like "sweet" and "nice" regularly, that's normal slang. And everyone says "cool". Got no problem with that, but this discussion is probably in the wrong place here and should be adressed at linguists?!
I think Rabiator is talking about verbs like "moven" "casten" "attacken" "retreaten" "forcen". You take normal English verbs (move, cast, attack, retreat) which have normal German translations (which would make sense) and conjugate them following German grammar rules.
I think something like "cheese" isnt a big problem for him (i assume) though we could use 'bärtig'.
Oh okay, alright if they feel that way.
Many people do not have a problem with that though.
I'm fine with german casters using expressions such as "natural" or "drop", they are hard to translate and convenient to use. As long as it doesnt go to the point of inducing Fremdschämen everything's alright, it's a videogame after all. Nothing to get mad about.
I study english at university and i also get sick of german casters. the 2 big names here would be take and khaldor. While Take's english is horrible, he is still trying to improve and provide some intresting content. Khaldor english is decent but when he is talking in german its making me sick because he is mixing in english words all the time making the whole thing very painful to watch.
Da werden die "mules" ge"called" und dann kommt das "Go" und die phoenixe "raisen" die "units"... i would really like that to dissappear.
I would really appreciate english co-casters so the show would be appealling to a broader audience!
On February 12 2011 22:36 Zocat wrote: I think it may be appropiate to throw some numbers around. Assembly is on atm, 2.30pm in Germany (so almost no NA watchers):
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
So where is the problem? German streams for German people. We shouldn't be losing English streams in favour of German.
Shoutcraft went off, I speak both german and english (not from a country where either is a native language) but I'm rather watching Khaldor than the GLHF.tv streams, he just seems more energetic and follows stuff happening really well considering he's doing the commentary and camera work. Plus they got 2 clients on that stream so they can even switch to a game already in progress.
On February 12 2011 22:36 Zocat wrote: I think it may be appropiate to throw some numbers around. Assembly is on atm, 2.30pm in Germany (so almost no NA watchers):
So we have almost as many people watching the German stream, compared to the English streams. Even when some German people prefer watching the English casts (ie. myself & friends). So there is definitely an audience for German casts which will chose German casts over English ones. So "we dont need German casters, they should cast English" or "people should just watch English streams, no need German streams" seems just wrong.
So where is the problem? German streams for German people. We shouldn't be losing English streams in favour of German.
Shoutcraft went off, I speak both german and english (not from a country where either is a native language) but I'm rather watching Khaldor than the GLHF.tv streams, he just seems more energetic and follows stuff happening really well considering he's doing the commentary and camera work. Plus they got 2 clients on that stream so they can even switch to a game already in progress.
All to do with production and setup, not language.
You know, English needs explanation for abstract gaming terms that a newbie wouldn't know. It's part of gaming. I wouldn't/didn't know what a "choke point" or what a "natural" was before I played or had the terms explained to me. Gaming isn't going to die because you don't use a "national language" for it.
Each game has its own language outside of any other. StarCraft is an English game and thus the expressions are in English (although, most are StarCraft lingo, while pronounced using the English phonetics, they are dependent on StarCraft context), if it were developed and popularized in Germany, you'd have me saying whatever the complex translated phrase for "choke point" or expansion in German. The Koreans would say the same thing. In fact, in Korea one of the ways that pros who cannot speak Korean can communicate with each other is by their "StarCraft lingo", it's actually more universal.
The major problem is that everything is pretty much dubbed in Germany, even porn - it's not about the esports scene, it's about the culture of Germany, in my humble opinion. But the original poster has some good points.
Stylistic concerns aside, I don't really see the problem, since the german school system actually WORKS and every single young german knows english very well,or atleast knows it enough to understand the meaning of such "technical" words. (who enhance the international "feel" of an e-sport) I mean, I don't get mad at my taekwondo trainer for using korean while explaining new tecniques. That's how they are called , that's technical language for you right there.
Also, if you took for example my country, where the school system sucks ass , that one could've been a legitimate concern.
On February 12 2011 20:50 trancey_ wrote: The whole german language is like 10% english nowadays so what are you complaining about?
Exactly that ... it shoudlnt be. If you extrapolate that into the future german will cease to exist at some time.
So what? That doesn't matter at all. Who cares what we speak as long as we understand eachother? The german that was spoken here 200 years ago is completely different from the one spoken today. Who cares about that? Right, nobody.
That is useless traditionalism.
On the topic: Everyone in the world should use the original english terms for everything in Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 related. It creates an even platform to communicate about things even for players who don't speak english that well.
Sometimes I hear polish casters, or french casters or whatever, and I still understand what's going on because sometimes they use english terms!
As I explained in a post above our german casters do not limit themselves to using the english technical terms - which I am not opposed to - but they are also using english words and mixed german-english words when there are german words available which could do the same job. Thats just so they sound cooler.
Caring about language is NOT useless traditionalism, because only a small part of the population is actually caring about eSports. If these people change "their version of german" by adding in these misused but cool sounding english words they will actually start having problems communicating with others outside the eSports fan community. Thats where it becomes a problem for those kids when they want to find jobs, simply because they arent fluent in "real german" anymore.
Yes, but I wasn't referring to language change within the esports-fan-subculture alone, as you weren't limiting your statement to that when you answered trancey_ .
Of course if you talk to other people and use a vocabulary of which the one you're communicating with only knows half the words, then it's pretty bad, but it won't ever grow to these proportions with eSports, as people only use the relevant terms when actually talking about eSports, which mostly implies that you're talking to someone who knows about eSports. You don't go on assuming the one standing in front of you knows what roaches are when you start trying to tell him a little bit about eSports. You start by explaining what a roach is.
But that has nothing to do with the general topic of language change, as there will never develop something like an "esport subculture" where newborn kids are born and raised using esports terminology in such a way that they don't know proper german language anymore, just like there isn't a business administration (in German BWL, also known as bullshit-bingo) sub culture with business administration lingo.
And within this topic of a language changing over time, your comparison of food to language doesn't work at all, as someone (kids mostly) who is subjected to this potential change of language and who is learning and using this new language doesn't consider his personal taste in languages (as with food) while learning.
And even only considering your theory of a developing esport subculture, your thoughts are false. Ever heard the lower class Berlin kids talking? They probably have a foreign word density of 20-30% in their sentences, yet nobody would ever have problems communicating with them.
The fact of the matter is that there is no objective argument against adapting things like anglicisms into a language at all, as long as the changes occur naturally and aren't forced. And it is this way in eSports, since the reason people use english terms while talking about their favourite games is not, as you say, to sound cool, but because of several other factors that made the use of these words common (communicating over the internet with foreign people using English terms for example).
this is bugging me so mutch about german casters. i really get annoyed if i hear something like "er taked 5 probes down" ARG. Its almost unbearable, but i really have no idea how to fix that problem. U have to use the english terms to a certian degree coz well either its really hard to focus if the caster uses compleatly "new" terms for strategies and taktics. And some of the german unit names are downright retarded. I really only watch english streams.
there is also another problem but i think thats just something that annoys me personal. most german (male) casters use to cast a game like it is football (soccer for u americans) and the german way of casting a football game is extremly agressiv witch just makes me rage hearing it.
I sort of envy the koreans in this regard coz they have ther own goodsounding terms for everything just out of experience and becouse its mutch harder (i think at least) to implement english terms in their flow of speech.
excuse my horrible spelling
Edit: oh and this problem imo originates of us translating everything into german like movies books etc. (and this really killes parts of the feeling intendet in those movies etc.)
I don't agree with all the germans saying they don't like the use of english terms in german casting.
Starcraft is not like football, where you have a proper german expression for everything that is going on. Yes the "denglish" is sometimes kind of wierd and i agree that some casters overdo it, but translating something just for the sake of it annoys me even more. But Starcraft is more a international phenomena and since English is the international language most of the terms are originatet in English.
If newer german viewers want to watch starcraft they just have to deal with the english expressions. That's how it is in most other sports. I watched the Superbowl in German and they didn't translate things like "first and ten" or "denfesive line". They rather explained once in a while what that terms meant and i think thats a better approach than translating everything.
Not sure if this is relevant but I actually preferred to watch the German casting because it was more exciting and they didn't have a player score bar covering the control groups (which really frustrated me in the english cast since I am currently trying to work on my control groups and I want to see what the pros are using). I am actually an English speaker living in Germany and I only understand very basic words, I think the way that the Germans are currently casting is like a reversal of this situation (although a lot of Germans have a good grasp of English), since the game is pretty new they are both trying not to alienate the German speakers by speaking too much English and slowly introducing English terms to the German esports community (making it easier for them to understand on an international level). Whether this is intentional or not I don't know but I think the casting will continue to evolve to be a more fluent "Denglish", easier to understand for both English and German speakers that wish to follow German esports events.
EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Eq_it-na_pizza-margherita_sep2005_sml.jpg/800px-Eq_it-na_pizza-margherita_sep2005_sml.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Wiener-Schnitzel02.jpg/800px-Wiener-Schnitzel02.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img831.imageshack.us/i/unbenanntxmy.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img534.imageshack.us/i/gsl.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/i/mlg.png/)
![[image loading]](http://img233.imageshack.us/i/castwtf.png/)
