Honestly I fell that buff only helps Protoss make quicker response after seeing the spire. Even though I play zerg, from what I understand a lot of people felt that it was too hard to compensate for a responsive stargate and it try to deal the muta ball in that sense. But I could be wrong, also stating the fact that muta play isn't as popular anymore.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

January 12 2011 22:47 GMT

#62

I think I will have to remove Jungle Basin from my mappool now. I have no clue what to do against these pheonix builds and forcefields on the ramp.

I made it to Master League today and it is ridiculous how hard it is to win against protoss on JB. I hope I will read some decent tactics in this tread. Protoss can do to many different opening on JB and it bothers me.

1) Fast expansion and block my expansion with probe/pylon.
2) Pheonix.
3) Proxy gate ways. (I don't know why but 1 out of 10 tries this)

Problem is that I can lose to all 3 quite easily. There is no wide open places on JB and force fields are very very strong...

Thetan

240 Posts

January 12 2011 22:49 GMT

#63

Personally, I've found success with bling busts and pumping lings against phoenix. Phoenix are actually worthless against zerglings and they won't have colossus or templar out to deal with your lings. You'll have blings for sentries and mass zealots, and zerglings to take care of stalkers. Even sentries aren't as effective, since splitting a bling army in half as their moving up a ramp doesn't stop them at all.

zer0das

United States8519 Posts

January 12 2011 22:52 GMT

#64

I was already doing 2gate/forge/stargate expands last patch, and I generally had pretty good success with it if they didn't get a fast lair and hydra den (and even then). I've only played a couple of games against muta, but in one game I massacred like 30 muta off of 1 stargate, never having more than about 8 phoenixes at one time (although there was stalker/cannon assistance). It was kind of ridiculous too, because his muta were dying insanely quickly, but he kept building more and more of them. He had an advantage briefly, but in the end he didn't have any ground army at all and I just rolled over.

Though most people aren't that stubborn...

idonthinksobro

3138 Posts

January 12 2011 22:55 GMT

#65

well i kinda practice a new build i go hatch before pool if they let me and i make constant Queens out of the 2 hatches(till i have 7-8 transfusion/creepspread is so goddamn strong) and like 6 zerglings to scout when they move out and defend with zerglings and queens and 3-4 crawler (at about 7mins i lay a evo for detection if needed) - i delay my gas untill i have ~45-50 drones than i take 2 up to 4 gas and make roaches and a spire for corrupters if needed.

That build is kinda
strong against: 6gate/3gate robo/airplay - 4gate you have to scout it you need crawlers in position
bad against: dt/colossirush/zlot/sentry/phenix/2gate openings
good maps: medium sized maps without backdoor e.g. metalopolis close air / LT/
bad maps: shakuras (too much creep needed to attack your opponent with the queens), blistering sand cause of the backdoor..

--

also in generall the patch kinda limits a ton of options since the new air units are designed to shutdown any Tier 3 and some Tier 2 Units that zerg has. I had problems against voidrays before the patch i thought they were OP before the patch and now i havent found a way to kill Voidrays unless i kill the toss after his first attack because of a build that is designed to have 2saturated bases in no time

Kralle333

Denmark301 Posts

January 12 2011 22:57 GMT

#66

Met it 2/4 games today and had no problems beating it

Numy

South Africa35471 Posts

January 12 2011 22:59 GMT

#67

I don't really think mass phoenix will magically become amazing because of this change. Sure they might get more phoenixs but I think this might just force infestor play more. Will it effect much? I don't think so. Protoss already has really solid openers that don't rely on phoenixs so I don't see much changing there.

JQL

United States214 Posts

January 12 2011 23:21 GMT

#68

What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only?

Fa1nT

United States3423 Posts

January 12 2011 23:25 GMT

#69

On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote:
What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only?

standard roach/hydra?

jcroisdale

United States1543 Posts

January 12 2011 23:25 GMT

#70

I like this because now combating mutas with Phoenix will be easier everytime i set muta and auto go blink stalker maybe now can throw down a few stargates.

happyness

United States2400 Posts

January 12 2011 23:26 GMT

#71

On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote:
What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only?

.....roach hydra

JoeCrow

United States167 Posts

January 12 2011 23:28 GMT

#72

On January 13 2011 06:57 Jermstuddog wrote:
Made basically the same post here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183903#7

8-10 Phoenixes harassing expos, transitioning into stalker/colossus/phoenix is rough. Nothing really counters the Phoenix when there are large enough numbers of them. be.

Fungal Growth? Have you tried this? works extremely well if you can catch the phoenixes with a fungal then kill with hydras.

TibblesEvilCat

United Kingdom766 Posts

January 12 2011 23:29 GMT

#73

i like the change, it stears away from high templar abit more in favor for a rape of your overlords.

it's a good change as it limits zergs vision, which to be honest guyz comon its basically maphack 1/2 the time.

if your struggling vs them , here a few things to take note

overlord speed!! - retreat em to a safe spot
hyrdisk den - don't need to make them, but having the option can be good enough deterant from the protoss massing them
be agressive - this is hardest part, phonies aren't cheap nor are they strong , yes they are fast and good alot of dmg to light, but that's all, rember more of thoes things, less stuff that can figth your hordes of roaches :D

flame me if you want

loving it

Canada271 Posts

January 12 2011 23:31 GMT

#74

Honestly, all these changes make everybody rush to get that unit or spell suddenly. I'm seeing even more observers, phoenixes, AND hallucinations. I guess its just a small trend for the time being cause everybody wants to use these slightly buffed units and spells.

Arterial

Australia1039 Posts

January 12 2011 23:32 GMT

#75

i have to admit, pre 1.2, whenever the enemy went phoenix's, i would panic as those things are fast as hell and pick off your overlords.

I vs'd someone recently twice in a row, and his tactic was to wall off, go fast phoenixs (not too many like, 5-6, forcing me into hydras, and then id get more hydras and roaches, then he'd push with HTs, stalkers and zealots.

God that was annoying.

Phoenix play is gonna be more predominant now, man its gonna suck for me!

CookieMaker

Canada880 Posts

January 12 2011 23:36 GMT

#76

a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?)

Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo

Germany2959 Posts

January 12 2011 23:36 GMT

#77

Haven't played any games yeti in the recent patch but obviously you now need to kinda blind prepare against Phoenixes because they can get 3+ really quickly. And you don't wanna get cought off guard by these numbers of phoenixes.

So basically as a Zerg we now want our expansions up just as usual and go Hydras as quickly as possible afterwards. Going Hydras however means you won't hold a 3/4 WG push.

So it's once again a bit more volatile. Scouting is EVEN more important and you better pray you make the right choices when you aren't allowed to scout properly, which is the case usually ;P

Paperline

Canada78 Posts

January 12 2011 23:38 GMT

#78

To be honest before patch I was always a little bit worried about hatch first on any map because of Pylons/cannon blocking my ramp. I've done OK with speedling expand and such but I'm really excited to try hatch first or other more standard early expands