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On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote:
chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it
No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths.
10 seconds is correct like many people said already.
If you did your example correction
the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve.
So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3)
35/3.5 = 10
So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong.
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To be honest, I think the change made players more aware of Phoenixes and their potential uses than anything else.
At first, people tried Phoenix play and it kinda worked. Sorta. But they didn't stick with it, instead opting for Robo-based play. So the possibilities of Phoenix-based play languished.
Now however, since Phoenixes got a buff, however slight, people are willing to have another go at them. And are in some cases finding success. Not so much because of the buff, but because they tried.
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On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote:
chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it
Why so complicated? (and it's wrong anyways).
Just face it: Every chronoboost takes of 10 seconds of build time as long as it is not wasted on a non-producing building. Test it yourself.
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i have been trying and tweeking zvp phinox (i spell it like this on purpose) builds before the patch, and always came to the conclusion they were never viable really.
I logged in the morning of the patch and almost had to change my pants when i realized the buildtime change. I instantly went into build order mode and started trying some stuff out. Here's what I came up with.
2Gate stargate is not very viable, as roaches will decimate, basically with any early phinox play you HAVE to have immortal. 111 Build is very nice, i've tested it against about 6 different strats twice each. It works very well in zvp in particular it obviously holds roaches well, and with one sentry and proper building placement you can defend lings rather easily.
The key to using phinox in the new patch are immortals. use the early obs to determine exactly how many immortals you need. Pretty much any early push should get chopped with a FF and decimated by your army.
its amazing how many people send ovies to corners of the maps. I can assure you that won't be happening anymore vs toss. This patch is going to dramatically lower vision for Zerg. Also, in a Gate,Star,Facility order, getting 3/4 phinox out early is very very very strong against Z, as at this point they will have at most 2 queens, which even then they usually dont have. Unless they spore up it can be very deadly.
It's a whole different game when you scratch the typical 4gate style, and you have to micro phinox's along with your core units. The other strong point about them, is the instant counter (usually on minerals) if you can hold their initial push.
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On January 14 2011 17:27 iwannabelikeday wrote:
2Gate stargate is not very viable, as roaches will decimate, basically with any early phinox play you HAVE to have immortal.
Build a Void Ray. They compare favorably to Immortals in most circumstances, particularly if you're playing air-heavy and therefore want the +1 Air Weapons upgrade.
Stargate for Phoenix alone, or Void Rays alone, is a mediocre structure. It's the potential use of both that makes Stargate valuable.
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Stargate for Phoenix alone, or Void Rays alone, is a mediocre structure. It's the potential use of both that makes Stargate valuable.
well said, many people do not understand this 
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I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
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On January 14 2011 16:47 kinetic_skink wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote:
chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths. 10 seconds is correct like many people said already. If you did your example correction the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve. So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3) 35/3.5 = 10 So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong.
well, his calculation is not plain wrong, he just didnt account for the duration of a CB. A CB shaves off 1/2x building time. Insert CB-Duration (20 secs) and voila, 10 secs reduction...
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as a 2500 master leaguer i love tosses going air in the opening.. EG.Machine's build ownz them so much
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Well most probably more Queens + faster Hydras will be required. Since I am really not a good player it will be somewhat harder to deal/prevent harass. Ovy sniping will prevent them of spreading which will be really annoying even with the speed upgrade for them. Will see I still see 4gate most of the time anyway so I am not that worried.
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On January 14 2011 20:18 eksert wrote:as a 2500 master leaguer i love tosses going air in the opening.. EG.Machine's build ownz them so much
What is this kind of build can you explain plz?
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To be honest it's not bugging me at all right now. There's a lot of Zerg QQ around, but I find that in the lower leagues a lot of Protosses are committing to too many phoenixes at the moment. Just because they come out faster, doesn't mean they don't still cost a lot.. Just my input, I guess.
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imo it's still quite balanced and i didnt really change my ZvP BOs. If the opponent goes mass Phoenix for early/midgame harrass I mass hydras and queens for a counter attack (9/10 sucessful yet)
2,4k diamond btw
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On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote:
I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes.
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On January 14 2011 20:47 mind1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote:
I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes.
Show me a replay of a toss getting 4 phoenix with 3 gates, then throwing down a robo, then an expansion, and then having colossus out before you can counter attack with hydras.
oh wait, you can't, because that's impossible
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On January 14 2011 20:52 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 20:47 mind1337 wrote:On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote:
I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes. Show me a replay of a toss getting 4 phoenix with 3 gates, then throwing down a robo, then an expansion, and then having colossus out before you can counter attack with hydras. oh wait, you can't, because that's impossible
I never said the toss gets 3gates, He goes 1/1/1, He will only have a zealot + stalker until his 4 phoenix is out. Zealot holds ramp and stalkers tries to deny scouting. Then he gets robo when 4 phoenix is done, and he can get some more ground units and a Expo. Those 4 phoenix will do ALOT of damage to zerg and you will have a hard time punishing him for it. Unless you for some reason went mass lings or very early roach, both that arent that viable normal openings at higher level imo.
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.Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
The only reason why u could go Mutalisk against Phoenix and fight even, was because u could build an overwhelming force faster, but now there are 4 Phoenix after 2CB Starports nearly at the same time build as the first batch of mutas of 4-6...
Also Phoenix come now in bigger Nr earlier than mutas. Catching up from behind in muta nr. is hard imo, I dont think its effective.
Many people seem to think that Z units dont cost gas.... produce muta fast and in multiple nr... if u have good macro ure always at around 0 gas... and produce your mutas just like P produce Phoenix, only slower
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Too early to tell. I would imagine protoss can be more dangerous with a phoenix opening, but I would wait for a week or two before I conclude anything.
Other than that I think everything is same no?
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Other than that I think everything is same no?
I agree. But I like that the wall off is kinda gone now.
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I was often complaining pre patch that I could never hold a 3rd vs zerg, so I often just tried to delay zergs natural, 4gate and hope it worked out. Which it often did and still does. The patch has opened up a lot of doors for me to play and win macro games vs zerg. While I haven't been using phoenix as much simply because they just are not a unit I seem to utilize effectively (except for early overlord harassment and scouting), having the cheeper obs and faster hallucinate have definitely allowed me to keep a better eye on the zerg and see when they are being greedy or preparing a push. This knowledge has allowed me to take and hold 3rds and I am often getting into split map, all out macro wars with zerg. That include tech switches, by me and my opponent, after almost every major engagement. It's a welcomed change for me. Not just because of being able to win macro games but because I'm not so tempted to 4 gate ever game. I feel like the matchup has become fun and interesting. I was so lost after the previous patch and roach buff. On maps like scrap station which I used to absolutely dread, I feel I can battle into the late game and not be hopelessly behind.
It's also very nice to be able to get phoenix out to deal with the muta threat and having the scouting to see it coming. While some zergs are obviously unhappy with this. I always got picked apart by muta harass after taking 3rd because my main ramp was usually semi-walled to prevent early ling harassment. Which delayed my stalkers from responding to the threat and being able to get from my main to my natural and 3rd. Blink's not 100% effective with handling this because smart zergs would fake one direction and cause you to blink the wrong way, costing me many probes. With zerg being able to make 10 muta's at the same time, and perform very fast tech and composition switches. I would think they wouldn't be so upset by a 10 second reduction in 1 units build time.
One final thought to all the zergs out there, USE CONTAMINATE. It's so good! You get scouting info and can delay colossus production and starport production. This can cripple toss's compositions and break timing attack windows. It's so underused, and so good. You can really punish players for bad building placement. Colossus and voids take a long time to produce, make it even longer.
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EPT
