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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote:
because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much.
Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
Exactly. I had someone go heavily into phoenixes, so I just killed his base with roaches. Just, he lifted a roach here or there, but he just couldn't keep up. Since he couldn't kill my buildings, I just hid my overlords at a ninja expo while I distracted him by killing his base, then got hydras out. GG. They will remain supplemental units.
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um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
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On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds
Yes. and in those 20 seconds, you do 30 seconds of production.
25 sec / phoenix is scary indeed.
On January 14 2011 07:38 Severedevil wrote:
Chronoboost isn't voodoo. I'm a little disturbed that not all Protoss players know this.
Because people stop using chronoboost after finishing warpgate research.
What about Speedlings into hydras? I haven't messed around with this MU much (random/protoss, and I've personally been making people miserable as they go blindly hydra and I play the same way as I did pre-patch.) Hydras are larva-efficient and lings for the mineral dump, and you're solid against gateway units and air stuff, and don't have to totally give up map control w/ lings. Is he really going to lift individual lings all day long? If he is, he's wasting a lot of phoenix energy.
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I guess i'm a bit surprised (read skeptical) that the timings are such that a 10 second change to build time, and a 25min/25gas reduction in cost being construed as a major change to the ZvP matchup. What is possible post patch is only slightly better than what was entirely possible pre-patch. Only now more protosses are trying it because the patch made them curious.
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On January 13 2011 07:15 DESOUL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Only difference is that Phoenixes won't win you the game and they can't attack ground, plus they are freakin more expensive then mutalisks, so i don't see how going mass phoenix will stop the Zergs freaking hundred lings chewing on your entrance.
this is so true. phoenix can do alot but they cant lift all your lings and if they tried i would laugh cuz they are 25 min a piece lol whenever i see phoenix opening i get spores and hydras while massing lings and banelings. banelings wreck zealot sentry and open holes while lings just chew everything else to pieces.
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On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote:
um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!!
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I don't think the patch has changed anything YET. I don't see people going more phoenixes. If anything, its the VR Collo deathballs that is making things difficult ZvP but that is not due to this patch. If anything, the removal of pylon contains helps a bit.
It is possible though that knowing that phoenixes can be made so fast deter people from going muta. I find that this makes it easier for the P to just start colossus immediately because he knows he can now catch up to muta numbers easier provided the zerg doesnt have insane economy. Thus, allowing P to get their Collo critical mass faster.
In any case, even if there are drastic changes, it'll take a lot of time to fully grasp and understand the situation. ZvP was quite Z favored for a few weeks after the roach range buff in the extent that 27 Z goes into GSL and only 10 P did. Fast forward one or two months with zero patch change and the matchup has been said to be P favored
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I need to play some more ZvP against a the new stargate builds to really find out for sure, but at first glance if protoss is able to 15 nexus or forge FE, a transition to 2 stargate build (followed by 3rd and robo) is VERY, VERY strong. I played against a buddy of mine who I beat 80% of the time we play (pre patch) and he steamrolled me on one of the new GSL maps that is safe to 15 nexus on with 2 stargates. I had 10-12 hydras and roaches for his gateway units thinking no problem, only to find that about 5 voids and 5 phoenixs destroys this with minimal losses to the protoss.
All I can think i could have done is turtle around spores, which would just lead to me losing late game since he has map control w/ the voids/phoenixs and is able to expand and tech switch to his desire without me having a clue. I watched Machine's coaching on Mr. Bitter's channel and Machine mentioned he felt against stargate openings spores are now necessary.
Don't underestimate this change! Fortunately I haven't ran into any protoss' on ladder abusing this yet, only friends so tomorrow I'll try to figure out how strong this really is and the best way to play against it.
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On January 14 2011 12:25 K_osss wrote:
I guess i'm a bit surprised (read skeptical) that the timings are such that a 10 second change to build time, and a 25min/25gas reduction in cost being construed as a major change to the ZvP matchup. What is possible post patch is only slightly better than what was entirely possible pre-patch. Only now more protosses are trying it because the patch made them curious.
It's stronger which turns it from a good, but risky, strategy into just a good strategy. This means Protoss now have 1 addition good strategy on top of the 6-8 strategies they already had. This makes it much harder to make the guess that you have to make in ZvP to win. Zerg are already stretched very very thin when they try to execute 'safe' openings.
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chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it
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On January 14 2011 12:32 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote:
um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers. yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!!
Erm... for Mutas to "not hit phoenixes evarlolroffle", you need flawless micro, and with that flawless micro if you can even spare 10 apm to the rest of your macro I'd be astounded. While you're busy trying to micro around my mutas my slings and such will just rofflestomp your base.
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On January 14 2011 13:38 rawk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 12:32 charlie420247 wrote:On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote:
um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers. yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!! Erm... for Mutas to "not hit phoenixes evarlolroffle", you need flawless micro, and with that flawless micro if you can even spare 10 apm to the rest of your macro I'd be astounded. While you're busy trying to micro around my mutas my slings and such will just rofflestomp your base.
Agree 100%, if Z is pulling the basic baiting micro against phoenix, it takes amazing (read: impossible) micro to "never get hit" by mutas turning around when its exchanges between large numbers of units, and one micro slip up and all the phoenixes are gone (I am of course assuming here muta will outnumber phoenix substantially, please don't bust my balls here). I have watched about 20 master league PvZs so far (for whatever thats worth), and every game with 2stargate vs mutas midgame+ the same thing happens. Mutas get repelled very well first harass encounter, maybe even losing a muta or two, phoenix get more greedy and actually want to take down the rapidly increasing muta numbers and both sides trade some units (obviously any unit loss is substantially more damning to P than Z), eventually, phoenixes give chase and P screens away/P is slow/etc, he loses his entire force. The extra queens everyone seems to be building for early AA also really seem to ameliorate any damage mutas are taking through transfuse as well, although I don't know if that kind of play will keep happening once ppl get acclimated to this patch.
After midgame, phoenix seem almost more of a liability than an advantage in the hands of a non-professional player, as everyone seems to forget their newfound lack of sentries and they all seem to overestimation how successful A-->A phoenix really are when armies clash.
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I fail to see how micro'ing pheonixes somehow takes some unobtainable micro yet the zerg player has all the time and APM in the world to beat the pheonix. Stargate tech comes faster than a typical 2 hatch mutalisk build, so it will take a while before zerg has substantially more mutas than you do pheonix. Protoss opens SG, scouts a spire going down and throws up another SG. Chronos out a bunch of pheonix while he gets some free Queen/drone/OL kills.
Yes, if the zerg somehow gets 20 mutas to your 8 pheonix you will probably get fucked. But that scenario is unlikely to occur and the more importantly what the hell was protoss doing up until then?
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Yes, if the zerg somehow gets 20 mutas to your 8 pheonix you will probably get fucked. But that scenario is unlikely to occur and the more importantly what the hell was protoss doing up until then?
Except for some few who can actually micro Phoenixes well against Mutas 
And for the latter, hopefully expanding or preparing a huge zealot-based ground army.
Anyone tried to do a 3 pylon 1 canon ramp block? haha sounds fun, haven't been able to play much yet though since patch =/
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On January 14 2011 06:08 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:12 arnold(soTa) wrote:On January 14 2011 05:01 PiLoKo wrote:On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote:
I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor. you cant kite corrupters with phoenixes, its not doable. Yes phoenixes are way faster than corrupters. but corrupters are practiclly imune to phoenixfire with their armor armored-type and very high hp. Look at the way julyzerg dealt with the phoenxiopening was very intressting, he opened up with a very quick spire and went corrupters and then made the switch to hydras when collosus was less than desireable because of all the corrupters with upgrades already out on the field. in short, corrupters may not be a hard counter (retarded term btw) but its a very good response to phoenixes _if_ you manage to get that spire up before he can wreck to much havoc in your base... It definitely is possible to kite corrupters with phoenixes (phoenixi? whats the plural form of phoenix...) Phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, corrupters need to stop to shoot, although they do have longer range. But since the phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, it can kite the corrupters across the map. The corrupters don't HAVE to follow, but they won't get any kills either, so I don't see how corrupters are a good solution to phoenixes EDIT: I'm trying to get into your head here so I may be on the wrong track, but are you thinking of using a cpl corrupters are each expo and using them as mobile spore crawlers? I assumed you wanted to kill the phoenixs, not just stop harassment, which corrupters would do.
no its not possible to effectively kite corrupters with phoenix. Only in the same way its possible to kite roaches with 1 hellion, it will litterly take 9 years to make any damage.
phoenix have 4 range, corrupters have 6 range, also phoenix do two low damage attacks (2 x 5 damage +5 to light) and corrupter has 2 armor with 200 HP.
you are sorta right about what I mean with "mobile spore crawlers" because they are so slow you have to move them to intercept and corrupt and target fire WITH supporting queenfire.
but the main reason u go the corrupters in that scenario is that it discourages collosi/voidrays build which is practiclly impossible to beat once its assembled.
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I think I'm either going to be making a lot of queens, or skipping queens entirely until late game and getting just extra hatcheries.
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On January 13 2011 16:38 Ecnerwal wrote:
hmmm the changes i've been seeing are that the overlords i spread for map vision get shut down pretty early and i cannot spread overlords anymore.
Also i think nix/dt openings are quite good when a toss FEs and when unscouted i think could be game ending.
But i guess us zergs have to figure out a timing when toss is weak if they do decide to open stargate
Phoenix/DT could be the new Corsair/DT, especially now since you don't have to snipe all overlords, just overseers, which are expensive!
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theory craft at his best in this thread.
Pure phoenix aren't any more viable than they were before.
It helps against certain timing pushes from T for instance (banshee / raven / marine / tank etc.)
or against mutas.
But it seriously isn't a more save build than before, cause you can just roach push him or take easy a 3rd and response with hydras und outmacro him hard.
Those 10s just made them a faster response unit, but changed seriously nothing in the viability.
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I have been using 2 gateways 1 stargate against Zerg and I really like it. Please take everything I say with a grain of salt as I am in Plat. Anyway I do two variations one with phoenix and void rays and the other with just phoenix. I think these build really punishes Zergs who do not get enough queens as obviously phoenix can lift them while the void ray kills them. When I go all phoenix, I like to leave with about 4 of them and snipe queens and drones followed by scouting overlords.
I am not entirely sure which is stronger but the 4 phoenix are much more likely to make it out alive. I do not view either as all in or game winning moves my main intention is to harass them and force them to go to hydra and spore crawlers and deny overlord scouting. Obviously I then expand with collosi. Anyway I am sure much better players have better information to donate but that is my two cents.
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On January 14 2011 16:35 Elefanto wrote:
theory craft at his best in this thread.
Pure phoenix aren't any more viable than they were before.
It helps against certain timing pushes from T for instance (banshee / raven / marine / tank etc.)
or against mutas.
But it seriously isn't a more save build than before, cause you can just roach push him or take easy a 3rd and response with hydras und outmacro him hard.
Those 10s just made them a faster response unit, but changed seriously nothing in the viability.
you seriously underestimate what small changes can do to actual game play.
both voidrays and phoenix got buffed, making the entire techtree better is huge.
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EPT
