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On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote:
@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit.
LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread.
What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything.
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On January 14 2011 06:52 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote:
@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread. What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything.
So a single chrono boost + half a chrono is roughly 10 seconds... what are you arguing?
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On January 14 2011 00:21 IPS.Mardow. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote:
I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7.
Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker. Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points  . Thats worth it imo ^^
Lol what Mardow. Your a Pro, and this is your advice? While i don't believe it to be wrong, its just rather depressing thinking that this truly is the case.
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On January 13 2011 20:34 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ Stop making the blind assumption that the game is balanced. It makes me sick. You believe in balanace like some Africans do in coca-cola bottle, which they even worship as a deity. I do NOT say that the game is imbalanced nor do I say that it is balanced because I don`t know .You have no fucking proof that it is, the game is too young so stop picking on people who complain about imba because there are chances that they may be right.
Wat? You're getting all upset because I'm actually trying to be rational here? Did you even read the two posts? I'm not saying that his game is perfectly balanced by any means, however useless posts saying that the game is all imba is not something that should be on the TL forums.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
Do we have start the patch whining already? Common people give the patch some time before screaming imba. The only thing we know at the moment is that toss is better than it used to be because of the buffs, we have yet to see the new builds / strats that come with it. Who knows zergs might invent a new build like terrans figured out the 2 rax build even after zergs got buffed in the previous patch.
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On January 14 2011 07:04 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 00:21 IPS.Mardow. wrote:On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote:
I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7.
Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker. Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points . Thats worth it imo ^^ Lol what Mardow. Your a Pro, and this is your advice? While i don't believe it to be wrong, its just rather depressing thinking that this truly is the case.
I just read sarcasm written all over the place
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speed ling, fast hydra with overlord creep spread with a couple spine crawlers and ur golden vs fast expand stargate. games over. hydras own gateway units. hydras own phoenix. seems to me pretty easy to deal with. that and get 1 or 2 extra queens. ppl just use roaches too much. i hate roaches garbage units. never have liked em. ling hydra is just so much better vs toss early-mid game. easy peasy lemon squeezy.
edit:
On January 13 2011 19:19 Popsycle wrote:YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT PHOENIX, I STILL THINK THEY WILL BOW DOWN TO ..... THIS http://i.imgur.com/UCu86.jpg
LOL awesome picture
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Facts about Chronoboost:
-Chronoboost adds 50% production speed for its duration of twenty game-seconds.
-One Chronoboost will allow a structure to produce ten extra game-seconds worth of units/upgrades.
-If one Chronoboost is used fully to accelerate the same upgrade/unit, that upgrade/unit will complete ten seconds earlier.
-Chronoboost costs 25 energy, which a nexus regenerates in slightly more than fourty game-seconds. As a consequence, one Nexus can Chronoboost ~half the time, and two Nexuses can permanently Chronoboost a single target.
Chronoboost isn't voodoo. I'm a little disturbed that not all Protoss players know this.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
, fast hydra with overlord creep spread
1) Buy overlord speed
2) Move ovies everywhere you need
3) Start generate creep
4) We got upgrade for hydra speed!
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I'm having issues trying to use the phoenix. I dabbled a bit pre-patch, and now with the build time reduction, my primary issue with them is less noticeable. While they're phenomenal against mutalisks (Basically I could indefinitely keep mutas away from my probes), against lots of little units they lose power. I've always had problems with zergling runbys, but the phoenix taking resources away from my ground army really cuts into fighting that.
Now, I did 3 gates into stargate, so it could just be "Wow, you're a fucking retard." What's a popular, or good, way to get to the phoenix? I did figure a protoss version of a 1/1/1 build, though I have no idea what composition I'd be aiming for. 4 phoenixes to harass, then throw down some gateways after expand and tech to colossus? It seems like it leaves me a lot of options early on to respond to what my enemy is doing, except early pushes seem...intimidating.
Low (very low, ~800-900) diamond if that means anything.
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Guys a phoenix come out of a stargate as soon as the CB finishes if u CB as soon it started so i almost has a CB duration.
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it doesn't really make any difference. phoenix openings are still rather vulnerable to early attacks that can do crippling damage.
it really has no effect on the matchup. muta/ling isn't much of an option anymore, but it was like that prepatch, too. i have seen a few hallucinated phoenixes recently, and i still never see protoss ever making more than one observer. i don't know why they hate observers so damn much. i don't know why they hate most of their other units so damn much either. it's a really nasty relationship. it's like dating a girl only for her gateway units.
but yeah. i just see almost no change in the matchup. not even to pylon blocking since i have been going pool first for a very long time in zvp.
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On January 14 2011 06:55 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 06:52 happyness wrote:On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote:
@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread. What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything. So a single chrono boost + half a chrono is roughly 10 seconds... what are you arguing?
Sigh... basic math fail multiple times. :-)
One chrono boost reduces the build time by 10 seconds. (Actually of anything but we'll use the phoenix build as an example).
Normally 1 unit of work is done per 1 second. With chronoboost, it works 50% faster, so 1.5 units of work get done in 1 second.
Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds. 20 seconds * 1.5 units/second = 30 units of work in 20 seconds.
You have 35 units of work that need to be done to build one phoenix. Normally this is 35 seconds.
You chronoboost the instant you start building it because of your mad crazy APM.
After 20 seconds, you have completed 30 units worth of work.
35 - 30 = 5 units of work remaining
Back in normal mode, 5 units of work takes 5 seconds.
20 seconds (boosted) + 5 seconds (normal) = 25 seconds
30 units of work (boosted) + 5 units of work (normal) = 35 units of work
The key here is that chronoboost lasts for 20 seconds, increasing build speed by 50% during that whole 20 seconds, and that totals 30 units of work.
It does NOT do 20 units of work in 2/3'ds the time, which is where this incorrect "saving 6-7 seconds" number is coming from. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, not 14.3 seconds.
Thanks to all the people who can do math and are also explaining.
(LOL I don't even play protoss, but the math fail was too much)
The obligatory link :-)
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On January 14 2011 07:44 Existor wrote:1) Buy overlord speed 2) Move ovies everywhere you need 3) Start generate creep 4) We got upgrade for hydra speed!
I realize what you're saying and the motivation behind it, but this is fairly unreasonable. Yes, Hydras kill Pheonix. But even with creep everywhere the Pheonix's will be able to run circles around the Hydras. Moving your overlords all over the map when you see 2 SG Pheonix play is the equivalent of moving them into his base and pressing the Hold Position hotkey.
Not to mention the amount of extra APM required to do this, it's fairly time consuming for me and I average 160APM (I realize this isn't exactly high, but most players fall below this). Most likely you will be doing it all at once because until you have OL speed you don't want your OLs just floating around the map, asking to get picked off by stalker/pheonix.
EDIT: And I am not replying at all to the OP, just this post. I don't have enough experience against SG play to really formulate an opinion yet. I don't really think anyone does yet, herp derp.
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Anytime a change like this happens the biggest thing is you know you'll see a lot of it for the next 2 weeks and then things will settle, just like after the last patch mass roach was all the rage and then it settled.
So I expect at this point to see Phoenix play each game at least for a bit. I only send out 1 overlord to scout, and the rest of the OL's I've kept in base not even spreading a bit. Sucks to lose some scouting but the timing the phoenix are out isn't a time you want to be risking ol's. Next change is that I've been making 4 queens.
The problem is trying to figure out how many Phoenix they are making. You don't want to overreact, start pumping hydras and they only made 2-3 phoenix and are now tech switching to colosi. At the same time you don't want to under produce hydras and that phoenix force just keeps getting bigger and bigger and allowing for map control and drone/queen harass, or a switch to voids.
I think I'm going to try to do some ling to infestor openings.. with a quick 1/1 on the lings. Going for the hydras to stop the phoenix just seems to play into the protoss players hands way to much.
I've also found that if every toss player is going to fast expand to phoenix harass I'll just go FE, cut drone production and pump speed lings. If they want to do the cute phoenix crap I'll just overrun with tons of lings, seems to have been working well.
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I don't think its a huge change other than if the zerg decides to go muta, P will now have a much easier time dealing with it. In the overwhelming majority of cases you are going to open with voids anyways if you go stargate.
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On January 14 2011 07:38 Fizbin wrote:speed ling, fast hydra with overlord creep spread with a couple spine crawlers and ur golden vs fast expand stargate. games over. hydras own gateway units. hydras own phoenix. seems to me pretty easy to deal with. that and get 1 or 2 extra queens. ppl just use roaches too much. i hate roaches garbage units. never have liked em. ling hydra is just so much better vs toss early-mid game. easy peasy lemon squeezy. edit: LOL awesome picture
Yeah and then you are trying to kill cannons/stalker/senry/void, which with good ff's is a pretty even battle, before the 2 colossi that are que'd up and building pop out and you get completely shit on. Yes hydra/ling will poop on phoenix, but 9/10 you will see 2 voids and a phoenix > expand.
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It is not just Phoenix. As has been noted, pylon block is still viable via canceling the 3rd pylon and replacing it with a cannon. I also just saw new 4-gate build being discussed in PlayXP. Thanks to the Hallucination buff, it's now possible to have both warp gate upgrade and hallucination upgrade complete around 6:10~6:20, and sentry mana 100 shortly after. It's nearly impossible for zerg to have detection at this early so the rush seems ridiculously strong. This applies to PvP as well. (Duh)
I'm a P/Z player (originally P, recently been trying to learn Z more) but for now I am playing Z only in custom games with friends.
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On January 13 2011 17:57 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:04 AzureD wrote:
Hey guys has anyone tried Nydus + Hydra play? The Nydus removes the primary weakness of the Hydra so you can get close to their base right away. If they went for Phoenix right away then they will be low on other units. It costs the same as 1 Zealot + 1 Sentry.
Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate? A Nydus is really weak when building and even workers can take it out before it finishes. If Toss has Map control with Phoenix it'll be really hard to use an Ovi to make a Nydus in their base, and trying to use another unit to spot for the place you want to nydus will probably be easily found by the toss. Also because Phoenix are used to harass the zerg I doubt they would miss you building the Nydus network.
I am not talking about Nydus in their base but Nydus near their base. Just putting it somewhere near their entrance would be good enough. It also gives you a way to retreat without losing all your Hydra.
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I try to end the game at around 8 mins now because of that dreadful ball of voids/couple of phoenix and the collosus(if any) if he skipped stalkers/sentry/gas heavy units. Roach/slings just swarming his base. Its abit of an All-in but if i can stop him from making heavy colo/voids, then I'll be ahead.
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EPT
