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On January 13 2011 07:01 Zergbong wrote:
As a zerg I was really worried with such fast pheonix timing, that it could basically elminate ovy spreads on the map, forcing to contain them, lots of queens lifted and sniped, constantly supply capped.
Anyone see this happening?
agree 100% on this !! protoss are going to have phoenix up so fast to harras air and kill ovies and its going to make scouting for zerg extremely hard !!
also when i try to go hydras (not mass) they are nullified by 1-2 collosus !!
this is definitely the hardest match-up for me (i am only mid- platinum player), specially when zerg have no answer to forcefields and most maps have choke points that make it impossible for zerg to swarm or attack !
not sure if any high level zerg agree with me also !!
i would suggest though to make ovie speed cheaper like 100/50 or even 50/50 !!
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I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7.
Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I missed the zerg tears, glad to see theyre back. From my games post-patch, nothing that new to report. If zerg gets an extra queen blindly they're fine and can reactively deal.
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I don't feel like it's too much of an issue because the cost did not change.
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote:
I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7.
Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points  . Thats worth it imo ^^
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On January 13 2011 20:13 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote:
I love how this whole thread is bitching about phoenix build time when the fact that you can't block a ramp with 2 pylons is far far far more important with regards to PvZ metagame.
Especially when you consider these new GSL maps which support forge FE very nicely, the ramp change is by far the more important one.
Not really. The pylon block was basically a free win for the P if it got off. I've only seen HongUn screw up a pylon block by reverting to added cheese instead of just solid play. So I wouldn't say it's this "important PvZ metagame shift". It's just no longer a free win for the P.
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On January 13 2011 23:47 brentsen wrote:
I don't feel like it's too much of an issue because the cost did not change.
^^ This. It might mean that mutas might be used less now since Protoss can react more quickly and mass up phoenixes to deal with them and as other posters said, it makes early voids more likely but other than that I don't see this changing my ZvP strat that much. I'm actually hoping the Phoenix buff can encourage more infestor play since I think a lot of players don't use this unit often enough (including myself). Who knows? We might actually see some good infestor builds (if not builds then at least new uses for it), which means more weapons for the Swarm
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Phoenixes already were a great unit pre-patch, build time really has changed nothing, as for using the buff you need more resources, wich means less ground army, so you can just punish with a early push, even just a faint attack to make the phoenix waste theyre energy, if you go for a roach speedling there is not cost effective way to use the phoenix against it.
As some people has seen it, it will encourage the use of the phoenix in all MU, witch is great, infestor and ghost, even reaper, need something like this so people will use them more often.
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On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote:
a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?)
WTF? Since when has 150/100 been cheap in comparison to 100/100?
Also, the fact that your opponent has revealed phoenixes is enough for a Zerg to commit to roach+hydra and get Corruptors. I guarantee you that a roach+hydra timing attack will kill the Protoss because the tech switch to colossus/HT leaves a huge timing window until storm/thermal lance is/are researched.
Personally I think we're gonna see a lot more burrowed roach play. Last patch the only solution to muta+ling was a 6 gate timing attack (which only sometimes works, as exemplified by tester) or the 2 star FE build. Now, muta+ling is still viable but it doesn't completely kill most toss builds. However, I think roach-based builds will just become more popular. It's essentially what happened with PvT:
In PvT nowadays, we see marauder+Viking+ghost. The same composition exists for Zerg: just replace the Marauder with the roach, the Viking with the corruptor, and the ghost with the infestor. Zerg players have an advantage in T3 units and the ball itself by teching to ultras and broodlords, but Terrans have harassment capability in blue flame and banshees. Both compositions work because the backbone of the strategy (roaches or Marauders) is cost efficient against all gateway units. For T, ghosts must combat the HTs, but Zerg players can simply burrow to avoid storm.
The scary part is that, IMO, toss players have no good way of responding to Zerg when they execute this composition correctly.
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Has anyone tried to go spore + a lot of queens + infestors off 2 bases, then mutas when you have 2 extra gas ?
Could it work ?
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote:
I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7.
Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
What did patch 1.2 have to do with any of that?
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On January 14 2011 00:38 dafunk wrote:
Has anyone tried to go spore + a lot of queens + infestors off 2 bases, then mutas when you have 2 extra gas ?
Could it work ?
yes, unless of course your opponent actually builds something other than phoenixes.
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On January 14 2011 00:31 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote:
a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?) WTF? Since when has 150/100 been cheap in comparison to 100/100? Also, the fact that your opponent has revealed phoenixes is enough for a Zerg to commit to roach+hydra and get Corruptors. I guarantee you that a roach+hydra timing attack will kill the Protoss because the tech switch to colossus/HT leaves a huge timing window until storm/thermal lance is/are researched. Personally I think we're gonna see a lot more burrowed roach play. Last patch the only solution to muta+ling was a 6 gate timing attack (which only sometimes works, as exemplified by tester) or the 2 star FE build. Now, muta+ling is still viable but it doesn't completely kill most toss builds. However, I think roach-based builds will just become more popular. It's essentially what happened with PvT: In PvT nowadays, we see marauder+Viking+ghost. The same composition exists for Zerg: just replace the Marauder with the roach, the Viking with the corruptor, and the ghost with the infestor. Zerg players have an advantage in T3 units and the ball itself by teching to ultras and broodlords, but Terrans have harassment capability in blue flame and banshees. Both compositions work because the backbone of the strategy (roaches or Marauders) is cost efficient against all gateway units. For T, ghosts must combat the HTs, but Zerg players can simply burrow to avoid storm. The scary part is that, IMO, toss players have no good way of responding to Zerg when they execute this composition correctly.
Use observers, seriously?
Burrowing roaches against storm only works if the protoss doesnt have observers and collosi. The only benefit of burrow moving roaches versus storm is when a protoss rushed for HT instead of collosi. If a roach moves slower and has no capability to attack, what makes you think that protoss has no answer to a slighly less immobile, retreating, not attacking unit?
Protoss has compositions that work against all zerg units, likewise, zerg has strong compositions versus the protoss, abeit being out a bit later than the protoss.
Phoenixes are definitely all the rage all of a sudden, which is very annoying. I've always disliked phoenixes because they force me to make units that I'd rather forget that they ever existed. I just need to adapt to the sillyness and get some evo chamber out quicker and just sporecrawler around my entire mineral line and plant all my scouting overlords inside the ring.
Although the only thing I'm looking forward is that this change might make PvP from a complete and utter 4gate million collosus matchup into something more dynamic. I honestly hate watching that match up in tournaments, as it hardly ever gets to the third base.
Who am I kidding right :D?
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At the very least more phoenix play should make for more interesting games. Phoenix require more micro (durrr a-move colossus) and require you to keep your attention in more places than just your base/the front of your base.
I never used Phoenix that much so my control and awareness still sucks, but I'm looking forward to using a funner unit.
Also, zerg has two 'hard counters' to phoenix: Corrupters, which provide a good late-game transition into broodlords, and Infestors, which are pretty badass anyways. In the most recent GSL's I've seen two pretty big phoenix fleets get completely wiped by fungal. When 2 phoenix = 1 colossus, this is a huge loss to the toss player. I guess the biggest pain to zergs will be before they get infestors out, this could suck for muta-based play.
I was finally getting good at using pressure and blink to hurt a player who goes hard muta, this might actually be bad for toss like me if we don't adapt. We should all definitely wait a few weeks to see how the game develops before crying imba too hard though.
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@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use.
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On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote:
@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use.
this is actualy wrong.
a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%).
a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit.
a chronoboosted Phoenix takes now 29 ingame seconds, not 25 seconds.
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I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful.
I don't think phoenix openings are very good. The phoenix expand just has such a big window of weakness where zerg can end the game with a roach army and a few hydras. There's no way you're going to have robo units or enough gateway units out to stop attacks at 80-100ish food from zerg after opening with a phoenix expand style build.
1 base phoenix with 3 gates isn't that bad though. It's sort of the new 4 gate. It's a somewhat stable 1 base early aggression build where it's possible to transition into a long game against zerg if you were able to do enough damage even if you couldn't win the game. It seems more sensetive to being scouted and hard-countered.
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On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote:
I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready
You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor.
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On January 14 2011 04:59 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful.
when has mutalisks NOT been a harassment unit???? they have never beaten any unitcomp that could shoot up the air in a straight fight...they are not supposed to (not claiming that they should)
and mutalisks were always countered by 2gate phoenix, just not if you start your stargates after you notices mutas out on the field.. now they are so accessible/entire stargate tree is much more accessible.
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EPT
