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On January 13 2011 18:42 ICA wrote:
Stupid question and not too sure about it. Can you support pumping phoenix non stop out of 2 stargates + a reasonable ground army of zealots and say a very few sentries off of one base?
If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff.
No way, double stargates suck up way too much money and are very hard to transition out of. You'll need to expand or stop making phoenixes completely if you want any kind of formidable ground army.
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On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-).
Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man.
I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
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On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now.
In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to.
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On January 13 2011 18:58 IPS.Mardow. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now. In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to.
And that's what this thread is for good sir.
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Really, I think that infestor could play a bigger part in this MU.
One, Fungal can still hit air. With Roach/Hydra you can fungal the pheonixes and clean them up pretty easily. If they techswitch to collosuss, it's just a matter of researching neural parasite and tryign to get a hit on the collosuss. If you can do that, you will clean up a protoss army quick.
If they tech switch to HT, you can switch over to broodlords with roach(IF you get to that late in the game) and then make sure to have extra corruptor to protect the broodlord.
I think if zerg can master this type of tech switching and micro, then they will do really well against pheonix.
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On January 13 2011 18:42 ICA wrote:
Stupid question and not too sure about it. Can you support pumping phoenix non stop out of 2 stargates + a reasonable ground army of zealots and say a very few sentries off of one base?
If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff.
Tried it, does not work.
You cant support it, you will get boxed in and the zerg will out expand you and out produce you.
(2500 diamond)
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Speaking of this change, a lot of tosses have been trying it out. But the usual strat works just fine going a couple or equal numbers of corrupters as he goes phoenix when you get air control just mass lings/speedroaches and expand and be agressive/harras and you'll win if you dont mess up to much. At least from my experience.
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On January 13 2011 19:06 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:58 IPS.Mardow. wrote:On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now. In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to. And that's what this thread is for good sir.
I think he's saying that Zerg have no good mobile GtA so thus there isn't much room to explore possible counters to phoenix play to regain map control. I tend to agree with him. Once phoenixs are out I think map control will be in the hands of the P until he gets careless or you have infestors with fungal.
The problem I see is how to get infestors when you don't have map control to get another base up. Puzzling.
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Coming from someone who doesn't muta zvp very often, this is this pretty scary because I have gotten to the point that only a 1 gas 4 warpgate is scary and anything after that feels so late but pheonix builds are going to be ~30 seconds faster to the point when they can go serious damage which means you'll have 1 less queen out or so when he can start lifting them which is bad so you're going to have to be careful.
As a mid game fungal will always be great, or corruptors, both of which are useful against colossus. I'm honestly more scared of straight up strong gateway into 1 or 2 robo colossus after expo openings.
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I'll definitely have to agree that mutalisks have completely lost their viability in this match-up when Protoss rushes stargate tech. There is absolutely no reason to not go phoenixes. They give an unparalleled amount of map control and force the production of a unit so easily countered by gateway units, colossi, charged voidrays, or mass phoenix graviton beam lifting to keep the hydra and queen count low. This is somewhat similar to the early mass reaper strat: either ending the game quickly or forcing the production of roaches which in turn were shut down by a quick switch to marauders with stim.
Mutalisk use in ZvT remains a good strategy because Terran has a very effective response to defending mutalisks that aren't effectively and efficiently hard-countered by a single unit in the zerg army (meaning not even banelings with appropriate micro and tank spread).
Corruptors against phoenixes are nice, but what do they do to deal with Protoss's ground army? Phoenixes still have graviton beam to help in mid-late game fights. Not to mention void rays also deal with corruptors quite nicely.
Yes, infestor use with mutalisks help with the phoenix issue, but how in the world will you possibly get your infestors to defend your mutalisks in time outside of your base?
Zerg tier three is completely shut down by void rays, so those are out of the question. It seems our only chance at the moment is to either hope Protoss makes a mistake throwing away his units, or we catch them an early timing push of roaches and zerglings.
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the only change i'm making is always getting an evo chamber when i scout a stargate whereas before i didn't react instantly with an evo chamber. i think i'll just copy july for now and tech to 5 corrupters early on and use them like a substitute for scourge, that worked for him in pretty much every game he dealt with the stargate builds (which was many times), and when he lost, it was because of some mistake later in the game.
mutalisks suck in PvZ, they only fit when the protoss does an old (read: poor) build order which involves not massing gates, not getting a stargate and not taking an expansion before attacking. in other words, only when they robo expand and tech to units that have nothing for mutalisks. if you won with them despite the build order advantage, you were just taking advantage of people who don't know how to deal with mutas well
your build should not be that different when you see a stargate now except for the fact that you need to be able to make spore crawlers faster to make up for the fact that phoenixes are out faster. you just need 1 so if they camp over your mineral line, the phoenixes get pelted, maybe 1-2 more if they have like 8-10 phoenixes but even that's probably an overreaction
everyone always overreacts so crazy every time there's a patch whether it's a big deal or not, just calm the fuck down. the strategies you should be doing aren't completely destroyed because a group of phoenixes come out 30-60 seconds earlier unless they were bad in the first place
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Any build that incorporates Phoenix now has these options:
1) Achieve the Phoenix count earlier (at the cost of delaying other spending)
2) Accrue additional Phoenix at the normal time (but you still have to pay for them)
3) Start building Stargates/Phoenix later, but still get the Phoenix at the normal time
4) Save Chronoboosts for other things
I used to open 1 gate 1 stargate in PvZ, into +1 Phoenix harass supported by a small ground force. Now, because Phoenix build faster, I can more readily disguise my build as something else, by getting a Stalker and +1 Air Weapons first to simulate a Warpgate opening, without jeopardizing the four-Phoenix timing. Or I can just start harassment sooner.
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i am currently just going nydus blindly since all toss go 1gate2stargate
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I love how this whole thread is bitching about phoenix build time when the fact that you can't block a ramp with 2 pylons is far far far more important with regards to PvZ metagame.
Especially when you consider these new GSL maps which support forge FE very nicely, the ramp change is by far the more important one.
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So today my friend did a totaly imbalanced shit on me - he went for a 3 gate stalker and made a twilight in an overlord-scoutable place and made me totaly think that he is going blink stalker. So I prepare for that. Then out of fucking nowhere come 4 fenixes and rape the shit out of me and I mean they come out like really fast.
I was so pissed because when I looked at the replay - there was absolutely no fucking way for me to scout it. Absolutely no way. All I can do in this situation is to guess and prepare for what i chose to because there s no way in hell i can prepare for both and survive.
Absolutely ridicilous what protoss can do to you, they just have soo many options to fuck up your predictions completely.
Now this sucks because this implies a HUGE luck factor in this game and I hate luck factors. I absolutely hate it.
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On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote:
Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
Stop making the blind assumption that the game is balanced. It makes me sick. You believe in balanace like some Africans do in coca-cola bottle, which they even worship as a deity.
I do NOT say that the game is imbalanced nor do I say that it is balanced because I don`t know .You have no fucking proof that it is, the game is too young so stop picking on people who complain about imba because there are chances that they may be right.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm expecting higher Queen counts to become standard, which will defang early/surprise Phoenix play.
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192 Posts
I play P and used stargate builds a good amount before the patch. This really doesn't change very much with the matchup. In my experience having a couple of more phoenixes doesn't mean very much when it comes to facing hydras (the common response).
It does help some in that your phoenix harass gets there a little earlier. Its nice that I can have 4 phoenixes in his base sooner but really the damage done and the responses from the zerg have been pretty much the same before and after the patch.
Something I haven't experienced yet though is trying to use phoenix reactively against mutas. Before it was a preventative thing.. you couldn't really respond to mutas by going phoenix because you would never be close enough to his muta count. Maybe with the patch it would be more viable to try that but I still doubt it.
Remember the fungal growth change didn't go through. Fungal + Hydras or even a good amount of mutas still does very well regardless of the extra few phoenixes thrown in.
I find the change more interesting in the other matchups. Phoenix/Collosus will probably be a little more popular and it will help with reactively getting phoenixes against some of the Terran one-base banshee/raven/X pushes.
Also in PvP it is a very common situation to find yourself in when you have done some kind of gateway pressure into semi-fast expansion build. You know a one-base collosus push is coming.. maybe with this change + the VR damage against massive increase we will see more stargate play in the matchup.
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From what I can tell as a random player, the whole match up is broken now, 10 second phoenix build time destroyed the match up/idra rant
It all seems fine, mutas are still viable, especially at our non pro level of play where if a guy spends all of his energy microing phoenix against them, he will lose in the long run. Protoss just needed to not be screwed if they didn't have a stargate and the guy was slowly adding on mutas, there was no way to catch up phoenix wise. of course you can't go muta against opening stargate builds, just like how you can't go 3 gate expand against a cloak banshee build, mutas are viable, you just have to actually time it, instead of just being like "well I have these mutas and he doesn't have a stargate so I auto win."
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EPT
