EPTAlso i think nix/dt openings are quite good when a toss FEs and when unscouted i think could be game ending.
But i guess us zergs have to figure out a timing when toss is weak if they do decide to open stargate
ZvP Changes Post 1.2? - Page 7
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Ecnerwal
Singapore43 Posts
Also i think nix/dt openings are quite good when a toss FEs and when unscouted i think could be game ending. But i guess us zergs have to figure out a timing when toss is weak if they do decide to open stargate | ||
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Paradice
New Zealand431 Posts
Phoenix harrassment might now also be a few seconds earlier, but it's not like it now comes before queens, and it always did hit before hydras/mutas were out there, so nothing in terms of available counters has really changed (Not too sure on spore crawler timings, hardly ever see them). If Protoss wants to really *mass* Phoenixes, he can now spend a greater proportion of his income doing this, and he'll have more, but that's not a good thing for him in most cases - his ground army will starve, and unlike Mutas you just cannot win the game with Phoenix, and they're virtually useless as part of the main army P is trying to build. P will fear a ground counterattack if he gets too many. I'm not a huge Phoenix user myself, but I have tried them a couple of times post patch. I find myself building about the same number that I would have built pre-patch. Sure it's strong but I don't think it's stronger than it was before, and I think arguing about how strong it is is not really the point. It's faster to transition to now, that's it. Really not a big deal. Observer cost change was more exciting for me! | ||
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dantuts
Philippines19 Posts
On January 13 2011 15:24 I Hott Sauce I wrote: Blizz should at least give Hydra speed back i have a feeling that eventually this will come in the future. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On January 13 2011 16:39 Paradice wrote: If Protoss wants to really *mass* Phoenixes, he can now spend a greater proportion of his income doing this, and he'll have more, but that's not a good thing for him in most cases - his ground army will starve, and unlike Mutas you just cannot win the game with Phoenix, and they're virtually useless as part of the main army P is trying to build. P will fear a ground counterattack if he gets too many. Useless as part of the army? Are you kidding me? They are awesome support unit for lifting up things. You just attack zerg and lift everything up. Not to say they are amazing vs. hydras too - they kill them in seconds and you can just lift all his hydras with phoenixes. Maybe it's stupid to compare but I would even say that phoenixes are even better than mutas because zerg does not have a good counter to them in early game. You kill drones, queens, ovies, hydras, force spores and then attack with ground and lift everything up. | ||
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Tokay
Sweden115 Posts
On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote: a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?) Uhm, you do know that mutas are cheaper, and faster to build than pheonix, right? | ||
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chipmunkrage
Canada51 Posts
Also, phoenix will hands down kill mutalisks. Even when outnumbered (to a reasonable degree). | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate? | ||
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cchuntem
51 Posts
Edit: also, will try to baneling push them every single game for a while ^_^ | ||
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Joefish
Germany314 Posts
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Kalpman
Sweden406 Posts
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densha
United States797 Posts
I think a couple of things are for certain, though: 1. A 'toss player who get's seduced by the buff and overbuilds phoenix too quickly will find that they leave themselves open for a roach/hydra timing attack. This was true before the patch as well. 2. Corruptors, which play a significant role in ZvP already, got that much more valuable in the matchup. I say skip hydras completely. I like going speedling/roach initially of course but instead of transitioning into hydras, I've been favoring a spire. Mutas are great in general, but really the corruptors are the key unit here. If you need quick air defense before your spire, go spore colonies IMO. As a Zerg player, you don't want to be caught in the trap of building hydras as the Protoss moves on to Collosus. Corruptors do well against phoenixes AND collosus, so to me they just make so much more sense. | ||
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Hobokinz
United States126 Posts
On January 13 2011 17:04 AzureD wrote: Hey guys has anyone tried Nydus + Hydra play? The Nydus removes the primary weakness of the Hydra so you can get close to their base right away. If they went for Phoenix right away then they will be low on other units. It costs the same as 1 Zealot + 1 Sentry. Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate? A Nydus is really weak when building and even workers can take it out before it finishes. If Toss has Map control with Phoenix it'll be really hard to use an Ovi to make a Nydus in their base, and trying to use another unit to spot for the place you want to nydus will probably be easily found by the toss. Also because Phoenix are used to harass the zerg I doubt they would miss you building the Nydus network. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On January 13 2011 17:53 densha wrote: It hasn't changed a lot for me so far, nor did it change much on the PTR. Of course I think we'll need a couple months and some pro games to really work out what will happen with faster phoenixes. I think a couple of things are for certain, though: 1. A 'toss player who get's seduced by the buff and overbuilds phoenix too quickly will find that they leave themselves open for a roach/hydra timing attack. This was true before the patch as well. 2. Corruptors, which play a significant role in ZvP already, got that much more valuable in the matchup. I say skip hydras completely. I like going speedling/roach initially of course but instead of transitioning into hydras, I've been favoring a spire. Mutas are great in general, but really the corruptors are the key unit here. If you need quick air defense before your spire, go spore colonies IMO. As a Zerg player, you don't want to be caught in the trap of building hydras as the Protoss moves on to Collosus. Corruptors do well against phoenixes AND collosus, so to me they just make so much more sense. I agree with this. I'm currently at platinum and after the patch I lost quite a few ZvP just because I went hydra to counter their fairly early phoenixes and then they stomped me with collosi. Protecting yourself early with spores and queens and go for spire instead have worked much better for me. The only annoying thing is that the phoenixes shuts down a lot of my scouting as I can't have the overlords where I want them. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
If ZvP is/was imbalanced, I'm not really sure a pheonix buff was the way to "fix" it. Surely couldn't have been a PvT fix?! | ||
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MavenSC
United Kingdom76 Posts
Hydras still disintegrate phoenix, it just means you have to be prepared for different timings... Corruptors can work later on, but i always like to start with hydras since they come so much quicker and cost less gas. That spire has always seemed painfully slow and with the timing changes, it's even worse. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Before the patch you might have seen hasuobs (among others) go with 3 gate expo 2 stargate....I have always been a strong proponent of 2 stargates to make the harassment really do the damage, but now I don't think the additional 150 gas are worth it anymore. Especially if you don't lose focus and constantly use chrono boost on the stargate. | ||
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N0cturnal
United Kingdom40 Posts
- Phoenix early is now a real problem for early queen/voidray harrass. A couple of phoenix can be in your base before your second queen pops, and if out fast enough a 3rd can continuously deny queens as soon as they spawn.then a 4th can freely float the map popping your early overlords.. - Voidray / chargelot late game against ultras is fucking difficult to stop. lol - no more pylon ramp blocks which is a godsend. Dont have to bother patrolling a drone at the foot of the ramp now. - still completely stomped by near-unscoutable 4gate 1 gas stalker/zealot/15probe all-in. Happened 3/5 games last night.  things seem a little bit hard for zergypieces again. | ||
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-Xios
England79 Posts
On January 13 2011 07:01 Tump wrote: I've found that Phoenix are quite easily massed, even on one chrono-ed Stargate. It is quite a good opening to transition into Voidray/Colossus, which seems like one of the better unit compositions of late in PvZ. Add to the fact that Void Rays now do 20% extra damage against Broodlords and Ultralisks now, we're gonna be seeing a lot more Protoss using this strategy. As a wild idea off reading this post (bold points of note). Do you think a deviation of muta ling will appear. In-particular. Ling - Corruptor builds? Corruptors to counter phoenix/collossi/void, Speed Ling to take advantage of the weak ground defense. Possibly? Could also be a mix of corruptor/Muta. 2 groups of Mutas to counter phoenix and harass, the 2nd group to sit back for base defense, corruptors up front engaging collossi with forward group of mutas focusing down voids, Slings on the flank avoiding collosi tryna poke in for econ damage/run-bys abusing speed advantage. Would be crazy micro intensive. Bit of a mad idea, but hey, kinda makes sense to me. feel free to shoot down my crazy ideas | ||
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ICA
498 Posts
If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff. | ||
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Maybe Blizzard wants us to get Infestors to stop phoenix but they cost tons of gas (which you cant really afford on only 2bases) and they're useless against all the other Protoss Units -_- | ||
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