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On January 13 2011 09:06 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
I can't help but think these balance changes are so far behind the meta-game that its just screwing things up even more. These changes were clearly devised after GSL #2 when Zerg was on top of the world after the 1.1.2 patch, and winning both GSL's. Things have since changed drastically thanks to 2 rax, and void ray builds.
i don't have the link to the quote but i am pretty sure blizzard said that they don't balance the game because of the metagame because they know that it changes all the time.- i am pretty sure they made the changes for the observer so that more than 1 or 2 can be made in a game to help with scouting- they lowered the hallucination ability so protoss can scout eaisier and they decreased pheonix build time so that more protoss will build the units more often
also a little side note does anyone know if a collosi that is hallucinated can break a forcefield?
edit: searched wikipedia and i guess they walk through it 
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I guess I now have to be even more careful with overseer scouting. Sure, it takes a single phoenix 22+ volleys to kill an overseer - but if the phoenix manages to kill the overseer before it returns home to the safety of queens/spores/hydras/corruptors, that phoenix will have already paid for itself.
Though it has been this way with phoenix openers, with or without the build time decrease.
Don't really want to lose that overseer due to limited early 100gas and the scouting.
+ Show Spoiler +I lost a game yesterday, LT-close air, where the Toss opened with a couple Phoenix and two void rays, all shoo'd away by 3 queens and hydras. I kept on losing my ovies and overseers near his base, though, so I blindly went with hydra-corruptor to counter thinking that he'd transition to Colo-stalker ball that I see 80% of the time my level (plus he already had stalkers sniping my creep tumors, so I know at least a robo bay is out). My 200/200 mostly hydra army melted to psi storms.
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
I actually lost a game tonight to a zerg who did a very clever tech switch to mutas, then stopped making mutas and switched back to roach. The result is I stopped going voids and made phoenix, when I needed the voids to stop his roach push.
That and I played pretty poorly that game in general.
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feels like Zerg is forced to hydra every game even more so than before, although if you manage to get corrupters its really nice cuz they r good vs the followup to phoenix/voidrays also forcing the toss into stalkersentry immortal, which is beatable with the hydraswitch, but this is wishfull thinking, doesnt really play out that way because phoenixes come way before corrupters and you will most likely need hydras to not die 
I duno, I like that you wont get pylon contained anymore atleast... I feel this was the hardest matchup in the game as Z pre patch
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I haven't played many 1.2 games yet, but I'm gonna test one stargate midgame play a lot and see what new possibilities are opened up. Unless I'm opening fast VR, which I seldom do, I almost always made 2 stargates (for mass phoenix) or none. Making phoenixes off one stargate didn't seem to really have a place; it's still a lot of gas but you couldn't really get enough to deal with mass muta or to be a real threat to ground forces. Being able to get just one or two more Phoenixes out in your first few minutes of Stargate production might make it viable to skip the second Stargate in cases where 2star phoenix used to be the standard, or perhaps even to find room for Phoenixes in situations they aren't really seen now. I never really used speedrays so the VR change is a definite buff for my play. Between the toss buffs and the attack priority nerf to repairing SCVs, this patch makes me very happy as a P main :D
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Blizz should at least give Hydra speed back
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Mutas are still ok...
I was muta-linged into mass roach on my first game post patch, and I even went expo into one stargate, 5 gate.
Of course I was really rusty, and my build was not refined for patch 1.2 .
Will post my replay once I can figure out why it is not uploading at the moment.
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yeti, you wont get muttas out before phoenixes arrive in your base.
and they are really really trashed by phoenixes..they are really not viable in zvp anymore as main tech, you can still prob get away with going them as a techswitch when u have a bit of gas banked.
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On January 13 2011 07:34 Geo.Rion wrote:
strangely enough i havent ecountered a singel Phoenix build today, even though i've been playing a lot of Ps
hey same! and i've played like 15 tosses since patch. Not one went phoenix. Even the few i had on scrap all opting for 3gate expo into 6gate
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probable reason for that is that phoenix builds require more multitask and are harder to play optimally with
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I've seen a considerable increase of phoenix openings since the patch. I haven't had too much of a problem if i can kill them before the transition to collosus, but if they are able to get some up im struggling.
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Early void to fight off any roach pushes. Then quickly mass 4 pheonix on 1 stargate. Im really suprised how fast I can mass those pheonix off 1 gate.
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Now it seems the standard build from Protoss is stargate opening with Pheonix + Void Ray into Collossus. This changes the matchup alot as Zerg are now in the defensive being forced to make Hydra and giving up total map control to Protoss.
I suppose Mutalisk will be rarely seen in this matchup as opposed to months ago where it was the standard build.
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phoenixes are wastes of money imo, you will have a much smaller army than without fenixes, everyone knows pvz is about the 200 army protoss can muster...
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Phoenix might force Hydras but it should also delay Colossus so maybe there will be a timing window that can be exploited on smaller maps.
Too bad Hydras are still really slow off creep (perhaps a speed upgrade is in order?) and for some reason, I just don't feel that they do that great against cannons in SC2 as compared to SC1.
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Haha.. Zerg users dropped to 18% in Korean server now. 24% in Master's league. People already figured out how to do the pylon block again - build three pylons, cancel the third before it finishes buidng and replace it with a cannon.
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
First of all, reducing phoenix build time does NOT make mutalisks useless on this matchup..
If an opponent does a stargate opener he will usually hit you around the same time with 1-2 phoenixs more than usual, okay i still deal with it the same way I always did.
Since most toss switch into coll after getting phoenixs I still hold it off with 4 queens while my spire builds with creep connecting my main/natural, with transfusion and proper control you can do fine and hold it off without losing too many drones same as you would with hydras. Than from there you can get corruptors enough to hold off the phoenix and start getting Mutas if you really want to go Mutas, so please stop jumping to conclusions saying Mutas cant be used in ZvP because they still can.
If your wondering im 2200+ Masters League if it actually matters.
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On January 13 2011 16:09 usethis2 wrote:
Haha.. Zerg users dropped to 18% in Korean server now. 24% in Master's league. People already figured out how to do the pylon block again - build three pylons, cancel the third before it finishes buidng and replace it with a cannon.
Yeah I was thinking the same long ago, so pylon block still viable.
What about phoenix buff, I don't understand why they made it. I think phoenix harass into void/collosus will be very strong, and zerg must make some kind of all in early to win a game.
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Not a lot of experience yet but I managed to get 1 pvz off yesterday vs a 22xx diamond. I Forge FE into 2 stargate chrono phoenix, picking off his overlords before he could really spam his hydralisks (he saw my fe and went 3 hatch, cute) leaving him suddenly very quick supply blocked and then just pushing gateway units with 5 warp.
With 7 or so phoenix i could lift up 7 hydra during the battle, shifting the tides while he was blocked. My ball raped his ball.
Before this, this phoenix attack would come out 1 minute later, just at the time his timing would hit me.
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I main P, and PvZ was my best matchup pre patch.. i went through like a 15 game losing streak to flesh out a 3warpgate phx build that didn't really lose if I did it right, transition into ht/vr if the z makes it there... cols may be better for that, but im not totally convinced...
basically if the zerg didnt immediately either link, micro well and make 2 extra queens immediately or make spores they would instalose... with micro, hydras are pretty terrible vs phx.. and if you expand intelligently, roaches are likewise useless
i think that phxs worked their way up as far as importance in the metagame in the time the patch was coming, and now are even better so im not sure what to really think...
so vs zerg they were already viable, i think this also makes them better vs terran..
not that it matters but ~2600 diamond w ~50 bonus pool..
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EPT
