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Obvs its still very early as the patch for U.S was yesterday, I have talked to many zergs and protoss both, and some have seen an almost night and day change in ZvP since the patch. Mostly to do with the Pheonix cast time reduction to approx 29 seconds with chrono boost.
Anyone else really seeing the effect of this and found strong opening adaptations?
Please do not post "imba this" or "OP that"
The patch is what it is, and we all must adapt with new openings BO's etc.
I think now for toss it is a viable basic 1/1/1 build for a quick Pheonix opening, of course this increases the chance for earlier ovy snipes, picking off queens, and could really dictate the zerg's opening build order, maybe forcing spores extra queens and hydras to make a ez 2 base colossus transition??
What are your thoughts?
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I dunno, as a zerg player, about 2.5k diamond pre patch, I haven't played much but I don't feel it's a huge change. I think I can still go roach/hydra/corrupter, I just need to get the spire earlier and be less aggresive.
Infestor's will probably come into play although, so we should see at least some new builds come out.
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nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
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If I can see more different units and less mass stalker I'll be happy.
Not saying stalkers are OP, any mass of 1 or 2 unit looks very boring to me whatever the map, whatever the match up.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
100% complain post with no backup. Imba complaints are getting really old around here. Take this as a warning.
Contribute, argue, offer advice or ask for help. But threads don't need a bunch of complaints with no contribution.
This is this threads one and only warning.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
If you see, that protoss going ground army, then you can go mutalisks. Protoss cant go fully into air AND hi-tech ground like colosus or immos
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It's so annoying how there are always undocumented patch changes in each patch.
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I have a hunch that this change is huge, ever huger than it seems at first. But we'll have to give it a month or so before proper builds develop to really take advantage of it. Currently Z expect P to test the patch out, thus you can't really tell anything. Same when roaches got buffed, could just blind counter roach builds and win easily for about a week.
Suppose we will have to see, but I doubt there will be anything groundbreaking in the next couple of days.
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On January 13 2011 06:47 Essentia wrote:
It's so annoying how there are always undocumented patch changes in each patch.
I don't understand why they would do that at all.
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i think its still gonna be pretty balanced, still do not really like protoss lategame though. Colossi+voidray is a bitch to deal with but its also quite hard to get for protoss
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Made basically the same post here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183903#7
8-10 Phoenixes harassing expos, transitioning into stalker/colossus/phoenix is rough. Nothing really counters the Phoenix when there are large enough numbers of them. Corruptors aren't fast enough to keep up, everything on the ground but lings dies so fast its a waste of money, and lings aren't enough to handle colossus backed armies on their own, nor do they have any way of dealing with the phoenixes directly.
Proper Phoenix play with the new build time is going to make ZvP a lot rougher than it used to be.
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I think it's going to be pretty tough for Z with the quicker phoenix timings, especially now that 2 star phoenix will counter 2base roach even harder than it did before, and even make a hydra transition more difficult.
My only concern is if 1star phoenix will now counter a roach timing. 2 tosses tried this out on me last night when I went 2base roach, and both of them died...very protractedly... you toss hate giving up, lol.
But those guys could have just been bad, I suppose. I don't think it's good for the matchup if 1star phoenix fast expand now hard-counters a 2 base roach -_-. Toss already have enough tools in their box to deal with this. The more flexibility they are granted (which they didn't need IMO) to deal with Z openings (of which there are few), will make transitioning into the mid and late game very difficult for Zerg, and macro will be tougher with more harass-play by our new-found phoenix lovers.
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this is going to redefine the mathcup
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If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...
Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.
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I posted this a while ago. I have been practicing against stargate openers for a while, and I am losing about 4 times out of 5. S o far what works the best for me is a timing attack before/during they try to expand, as they will be low on ground units. However Graviton Beam + some forcefield can practically nullify the push. It has been giving me headaches for a month now, basically haha.
On December 04 2010 12:04 Djeez wrote:
Oh christ, haha.
I actually faced so much stargate openers recently, and lost to them... I practiced a good bunch of games against this build with different toss that were willing to, trying different thing to deal with it.
Corruptors don't work against pheonixes, to those saying it is the key. The range is slightly too short, the shooting time too slow, and most of all the speed of the corruptor not sufficient to handle them. Let alone the fact that pheonixes come out way sooner. Also, corruptors get torn apart by void rays.
Spore Crawlers are kinda good, but the range is slightly too short once again, and hurts the economy (let's say 5 workers lost to making spores, add that to the larva you will inevitably use to make overlords that got owned). It becomes really expensive, especially if you have to rebuild queens while doing so.
Hydras require good creep spread, and come out too late (mostly because you are starving for minerals for the reason I mentionned above, so you cut on the gas a bit). Usually by the time they are ready and able, damage has been done, and/or a colossus is out already anyway. Still a decent option I guess.
Best way I found was massing them queens. This also require good creep spread, but it doesn't fuck with your larva system too much, and they can transfuse if you have enough energy.
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I've found that Phoenix are quite easily massed, even on one chrono-ed Stargate. It is quite a good opening to transition into Voidray/Colossus, which seems like one of the better unit compositions of late in PvZ. Add to the fact that Void Rays now do 20% extra damage against Broodlords and Ultralisks now, we're gonna be seeing a lot more Protoss using this strategy.
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As a zerg I was really worried with such fast pheonix timing, that it could basically elminate ovy spreads on the map, forcing to contain them, lots of queens lifted and sniped, constantly supply capped.
Anyone see this happening?
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Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.
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i can definetly see more phoenix play against z now, thats gona be annoying. other than that i dont think it is gona change much
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EPT
