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ZvP Changes Post 1.2? - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FarbrorAbavna
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden4856 Posts
January 12 2011 22:03 GMT
#21
I welcome the change since more p is going air now and I seldom build a spire within the first 10 minutes(if at all even, though if colossi is spotted I'm pretty much forced to) so whenever it happens it's an advantage for me on the ground. I'm really happy with this change :D
Do you really want chat rooms?
Hobokinz
Profile Joined October 2010
United States126 Posts
January 12 2011 22:03 GMT
#22
I'm not too sure about the implications of the build time increase yet. I'm sure alot of Protoss will start to open with some funky stargate builds and that some of us Zerg will QQ about it, but honestly this isn't going to turn to Protoss into some Zerg slaughtering machine.

However I do think it will be a tough time for Zerg in the MU from now on. We used to be able to kick the door in with Muta's and kick ass and chew bubble gum for most of the game (Until a large amount of Blink Stalkers of HT hit the field.) Zerg is going to have to start to rely more on other units, like the Hydralisk do to it's ability to melt gateway units and ability to shoot up (Something unheard of for Zerg in SCII). Apart of my wants to QQ because it's now going to force the Zerg down the short tech tree of the ranged ground units (T3 Lurker how I miss you so.) but if nothing else it will show Blizzard the weakness of some of the Zerg units if we can't think of anything to deal with Toss air now.
BuuGhost
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands340 Posts
January 12 2011 22:04 GMT
#23
I think that banshees are more harmful than a phoenix is.
But even tough the change was unnecessary imo. I'm fine with it. (terran/protoss perspective)

I'd suggest going heavy zergling vs phoenixes. But i can't really talk as i havent played much games since the patch yet. But phoenixes are cost inefficient vs Zerglings if he is commiting to it. and he probably won't have a main army force.

If he has only 3-4 phoenixes rally them overlords to your main base (i'd prefer less scouting information over dead supply needing to be rebuilt, But i do suggest keeping crucial overlords around its base. or at crucial spots )

Queens should be able to defend unless +5 phoenixes pop. at the time you should have some spore crawlers or hydras up.
"Kinda like this thing but there’s something you should know, I just came to say hello."
MrPrezbo
Profile Joined November 2010
92 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 22:08:32
January 12 2011 22:04 GMT
#24
On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote:
If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...

Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.



I agree, IF he's going 1star. But I'm worried that 1star expand now will be a different story, especially if he pumps only phoenix (voids are a pretty useless opener vs. burrow-roach). With that many phoenixes, with a minimal gateway backup, and perhaps a cannon or two, he might be able to stop your timing post-patch, where he wouldn't have been able to pre-patch.

Sorry if that's too convoluted lol. Just voicing some of my concerns. But I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
If chess is life, Starcraft is science
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
January 12 2011 22:06 GMT
#25
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
January 12 2011 22:08 GMT
#26
I really like this change, it will diversify ZvP and increase mobility of protoss army.
Also just randomly having ovies all over the map would be waste of minerals and zerg will be punished for that. Also forcing zerg going early evo chamber with anti-air is not that bad, gives you detection against quick DT's.
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 22:11:25
January 12 2011 22:09 GMT
#27
I don't think there's a huge difference in the openings. I always get an early 3rd queen anyway so its not too hard to fight phoenix. I sometimes let them do way more than they should if protoss can hide them and move out with like 6 - 7 before I know what's up but if I didn't scout the stargates that long I would lose to them pre-patch too.

The biggest change I'm finding (this is only from the Zerg perspective so take that for what its worth) is that protoss players can now respond much quicker to broodlord switches, and I think that might have been the primary reason for the change in the first place. It kinda sucks as zerg, but I definitely feel its a bit more fair since broodlord / roach was such a powerful lategame transition and a little too unforgiving if unscouted for protoss.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
regulator_mk
Profile Joined June 2010
United States127 Posts
January 12 2011 22:11 GMT
#28
On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia


Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.
Dave.
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland272 Posts
January 12 2011 22:11 GMT
#29
On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote:
If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...

Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.


My brother plays Zerg and I've noticed he goes 2 base speedling with a very early plus one sometimes as it's quite good against 4 gate pushes but I'd imagine it would be good against these phoenix openings too, with the counter attacking opportunities and option to throw down a few spore crawlers if needed.
#1 Ryung, Hasuobs, Machine, and Socke fan!
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
January 12 2011 22:13 GMT
#30
On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia


Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.

Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
January 12 2011 22:14 GMT
#31
It hasn't changed that much in my games. If they open phoenix I go straight to hydra and so far I've been able to straight up kill them because they have nothing to hold their base. If they don't open phoenix I still go muta pretty much every game and no one has tried reacting with phoenix yet.

I'm sure it will change as people figure out better timings to use phoenix.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
MrPrezbo
Profile Joined November 2010
92 Posts
January 12 2011 22:15 GMT
#32
On January 13 2011 07:11 Dave. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote:
If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...

Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.


My brother plays Zerg and I've noticed he goes 2 base speedling with a very early plus one sometimes as it's quite good against 4 gate pushes but I'd imagine it would be good against these phoenix openings too, with the counter attacking opportunities and option to throw down a few spore crawlers if needed.


That's a good call, I think. I'm a fan of hydra-ling in certain situations, and I may need to add this to my list.
If chess is life, Starcraft is science
DESOUL
Profile Joined December 2010
Moldova40 Posts
January 12 2011 22:15 GMT
#33
On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.

User was warned for this post


Only difference is that Phoenixes won't win you the game and they can't attack ground, plus they are freakin more expensive then mutalisks, so i don't see how going mass phoenix will stop the Zergs freaking hundred lings chewing on your entrance.
Wut o.O
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
January 12 2011 22:16 GMT
#34
I've been trying the good ol' 2 gas 3 gate into expand but with hallucination right after warpgate research. 30 seconds off reseach time does make quite a difference and if i've managed to save up enough sentry energy, i do a quick 4~5 gate push with hallucinated zealots in front to tank damage. It's been working pretty well so far since a lot of zergs skip detection or just get an overseer to scout your base.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Tyler214365
Profile Joined December 2010
51 Posts
January 12 2011 22:16 GMT
#35
yea it might almost swap the roles of p and z i think. with early phoenixes toss gets map control and prevents z from getting mutas keeping them locked in their base. z may have to get a roach hydra corruptor death ball up and push across the map together like p normally does with colossus. well see how it plays out but i think it may be a major change like the roach range buff. that buff more than anything made people consider the potential of the unit more than give a huge buff, and it may be the same for stargate play.
optical630
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom768 Posts
January 12 2011 22:16 GMT
#36
ignore the trolls saying mutalisks is useless, these idiots are people who dont play the game but get satisfaction from flaming threads
regulator_mk
Profile Joined June 2010
United States127 Posts
January 12 2011 22:16 GMT
#37
On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia


Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.

Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds


Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds...
In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds...
BadWolf0
Profile Joined September 2010
United States300 Posts
January 12 2011 22:17 GMT
#38
Incontrol pointed out on the MrBitter vids that not enough zerg use burrow to respond to pheonix harass. This isn't a solution or anything but its helped me to realize oh phoenix incoming on a farout base.. burrow queen and drones til hydra get there. Saves lots of economy with not much effort.

and yeah qq on the brood lord transition at gold/plat getting broods usually means win if you have economy (at least from my games seemed like below dia they didn't know how to hold them off as easily) but i feel like that won't be as true now *sigh* .
All hail the Queen!!!
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
January 12 2011 22:19 GMT
#39
On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia


Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.

Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds


Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds...
In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds...


It increases the speed by 50%

That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5
Pinski
Profile Joined September 2010
United States126 Posts
January 12 2011 22:20 GMT
#40
On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:
On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.


6.7 according to liquipedia


Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.

Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds


Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds.
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