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On January 13 2011 07:20 Pinski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds.
This isn't that complex, it shaves off a third of the build time for 20 seconds, that isn't 10 seconds. That would be true if it halved build time for 20 seconds or it worked for 30 seconds the way it currently does, but it doesn't do either of those things
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Oh god I'm gonna rage SOOOOOO hard vs protoss now :p
Ovies and queens getting sniped... It gets under my skin. Like really bad. I'm looking forward to it haha
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On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5
If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar.
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On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia
it reduces build time by a third. the 6.7 sec reduction would be per complete chronoboost. As the phoenix takes more than 1 chronoboost to fully produce it would reduce the build time by more than 6.7 seconds. It takes almost 12 seconds off the build time. Call it a 23.3 second build time rather than 35. building them that quickly would take 50 nexus energy and wouldn't be sustainable on one nexus
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I guess an early evo chamber will probably be implemented into future strategies for a spore crawler. Only way i can see of effectively dealing with the Phoenixes.
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Funny thing is protoss probably needed the phoenix buff when the patch was first considered, but now that the meta-game and strategy has shifted so much, and protoss are doing quite well against Zerg, it doesn't seem necessary anymore.
I'm just hoping Blizz does something with overlord speed/armor in the next patch, akin to observer buff, so that Zerg can actually get scouting information and not roll the dice guessing what tech route to go for.
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What owns phoenix are spores. I dont see that really changing with this patch.
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On January 13 2011 07:28 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5 If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar.
Okay it increases build time by 50% for 20 seconds (game time)
20 x 1.5 = it can build 30 seconds worth of shit in 20 seconds
20/30 = 0.67 is the real reduction. so 13.3 seconds to build something that takes 20 normally, or saving 6.7 seconds
am I wrong?
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote:
nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
This is stupid. That's like saying "OMG VIKINGS! ROFL IMBA!".
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strangely enough i havent ecountered a singel Phoenix build today, even though i've been playing a lot of Ps
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because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much.
Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
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Played ZvP against my mate last night and made 4 zerglings and proceded to get upto a total of 60-70 drones on 3base before pumping out units lol. Sure he sniped a few queens but serously. Just pumped drones and got a few queens and spore crawlers. I felt like a total baws!
Then collossus came out and ripped my hydras before I could get a good number of corruptors out 
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On January 13 2011 07:31 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:28 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5 If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar. Okay it increases build time by 50% for 20 seconds (game time) 20 x 1.5 = it can build 30 seconds worth of shit in 20 seconds 20/30 = 0.67 is the real reduction. so 13.3 seconds to build something that takes 20 normally, or saving 6.7 seconds am I wrong?
I've tested in-game, start at xx:00, phoenix comes out at xx:35. Now, do the same with chronoboost, the Phoenix comes out at xx:25, try it yourself.
On a second look I dont even know what you're arguing
Oh now I do. Yeah you're right, except the chronoboost lasts for 30 "normal" seconds, not 20 like you assume in your example.
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote:
because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much.
Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
qft
The beginning of harass would come a bit earlier, and P might not have to do 2 starports to do an effective harass, but it's basically the same.
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote:
because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much.
Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
This is an important point. Since 2 phoenix = 1 colossus, the more phoenix toss makes the lesser the colossi count.
Also a couple of infestors with few hydras will shut down phoenixes completely. It will usually be the early game where phoenixes will matter a lot due to the changed timings but late game it should still be the same.
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On January 13 2011 07:24 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:20 Pinski wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote:
Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds. This isn't that complex, it shaves off a third of the build time for 20 seconds, that isn't 10 seconds. That would be true if it halved build time for 20 seconds or it worked for 30 seconds the way it currently does, but it doesn't do either of those things
You're right, it isn't that complex.
Without chronoboost, every second, 1 second of time is applied to the build time. After 20 seconds, you've done 20 seconds worth of work.
With chronoboost, every second, 1.5 seconds (50% increase) of time are applied to the build time. After 20 seconds, you've done 30 seconds worth of work.
This is ridiculously easy to verify in-game.
So yes, liquipedia is wrong, and chrono cuts off 10 seconds of buildtime.
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It doesn't change that much
Usually people who get stargate tech usually expand first and get economy first to afford those paper planes
The only change i can predict is that zerg won't be that passive and be more aggressive to these type of opening
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I can't believe nobody's mentioned it, but the threat of a pylon wall-in has been greatly reduced. I still don't think this makes hatch first safe, but for me at least I feel safe scouting a bit later in the match-up. I can think of some other consequences as well:
-6/7 pool on steppes should be a little harder to defend with certain builds since you can't delay the lings by walling off the bottom of their ramp with 2 pylons.
-Void rays will be more common I think, not because the void ray is better early/mid-game in ZvP, but because there will be more available time on the same stargate and stargates in general will be more common.
Against roach/ling or roach/hydra it's clear that phoenix's aren't going to be a lategame unit. Against non-spire openings spires are used to combat colossus via the corruptor and phoenix's aren't very effective against corruptors because corruptors are armored and have equal range.
-Blind roach aggression is now more dangerous:
It wasn't necessarily a good idea to begin with, but now it's more dangerous as the chances that the protoss player will have a starport is greatly increased and even 1 or 2 voidrays can defend against a pretty large number of roaches.
Lategame:
definitely expect more voidrays, they do additional bonus damage to broodlords and were already a pretty effective way of combating brood lords, while they won't be as mobile because of the flux vanes nerf, they're more likely to be incorporated to a mostly gateway/robo army.
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My question is:
What made blizzard thing that pheonix needed to be built faster? That's stupid to me.
That being said, It's going to be hard to find something to defend against it well, and it will take lots of micro. Maybe just roach-hydra and keep the hydras back until u pick off the colossus, or mutua roach ling, and try to micro with mutas.
Idk, but we need a good idea fast lol
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote:
because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much.
Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
Theorycraft says cannons are very effective against zerglings, and roaches to an extent. But even if you do get rushed by roaches, graviton beam is there to help lower dps, if not completely obliterate the rush. Ovie sniping will also severely hamper a roach build.
It will be interesting to see how this change pans out. Get at it protoss, phoenix rush galore!
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EPT
