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Obvs its still very early as the patch for U.S was yesterday, I have talked to many zergs and protoss both, and some have seen an almost night and day change in ZvP since the patch. Mostly to do with the Pheonix cast time reduction to approx 29 seconds with chrono boost.
Anyone else really seeing the effect of this and found strong opening adaptations?
Please do not post "imba this" or "OP that"
The patch is what it is, and we all must adapt with new openings BO's etc.
I think now for toss it is a viable basic 1/1/1 build for a quick Pheonix opening, of course this increases the chance for earlier ovy snipes, picking off queens, and could really dictate the zerg's opening build order, maybe forcing spores extra queens and hydras to make a ez 2 base colossus transition??
What are your thoughts?
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I dunno, as a zerg player, about 2.5k diamond pre patch, I haven't played much but I don't feel it's a huge change. I think I can still go roach/hydra/corrupter, I just need to get the spire earlier and be less aggresive. Infestor's will probably come into play although, so we should see at least some new builds come out.
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nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
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If I can see more different units and less mass stalker I'll be happy. Not saying stalkers are OP, any mass of 1 or 2 unit looks very boring to me whatever the map, whatever the match up.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
100% complain post with no backup. Imba complaints are getting really old around here. Take this as a warning.
Contribute, argue, offer advice or ask for help. But threads don't need a bunch of complaints with no contribution.
This is this threads one and only warning.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
If you see, that protoss going ground army, then you can go mutalisks. Protoss cant go fully into air AND hi-tech ground like colosus or immos
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It's so annoying how there are always undocumented patch changes in each patch.
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I have a hunch that this change is huge, ever huger than it seems at first. But we'll have to give it a month or so before proper builds develop to really take advantage of it. Currently Z expect P to test the patch out, thus you can't really tell anything. Same when roaches got buffed, could just blind counter roach builds and win easily for about a week.
Suppose we will have to see, but I doubt there will be anything groundbreaking in the next couple of days.
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On January 13 2011 06:47 Essentia wrote: It's so annoying how there are always undocumented patch changes in each patch.
I don't understand why they would do that at all.
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i think its still gonna be pretty balanced, still do not really like protoss lategame though. Colossi+voidray is a bitch to deal with but its also quite hard to get for protoss
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Made basically the same post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183903#7
8-10 Phoenixes harassing expos, transitioning into stalker/colossus/phoenix is rough. Nothing really counters the Phoenix when there are large enough numbers of them. Corruptors aren't fast enough to keep up, everything on the ground but lings dies so fast its a waste of money, and lings aren't enough to handle colossus backed armies on their own, nor do they have any way of dealing with the phoenixes directly.
Proper Phoenix play with the new build time is going to make ZvP a lot rougher than it used to be.
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I think it's going to be pretty tough for Z with the quicker phoenix timings, especially now that 2 star phoenix will counter 2base roach even harder than it did before, and even make a hydra transition more difficult.
My only concern is if 1star phoenix will now counter a roach timing. 2 tosses tried this out on me last night when I went 2base roach, and both of them died...very protractedly... you toss hate giving up, lol.
But those guys could have just been bad, I suppose. I don't think it's good for the matchup if 1star phoenix fast expand now hard-counters a 2 base roach -_-. Toss already have enough tools in their box to deal with this. The more flexibility they are granted (which they didn't need IMO) to deal with Z openings (of which there are few), will make transitioning into the mid and late game very difficult for Zerg, and macro will be tougher with more harass-play by our new-found phoenix lovers.
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this is going to redefine the mathcup
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If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...
Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.
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I posted this a while ago. I have been practicing against stargate openers for a while, and I am losing about 4 times out of 5. S o far what works the best for me is a timing attack before/during they try to expand, as they will be low on ground units. However Graviton Beam + some forcefield can practically nullify the push. It has been giving me headaches for a month now, basically haha.
On December 04 2010 12:04 Djeez wrote: Oh christ, haha.
I actually faced so much stargate openers recently, and lost to them... I practiced a good bunch of games against this build with different toss that were willing to, trying different thing to deal with it.
Corruptors don't work against pheonixes, to those saying it is the key. The range is slightly too short, the shooting time too slow, and most of all the speed of the corruptor not sufficient to handle them. Let alone the fact that pheonixes come out way sooner. Also, corruptors get torn apart by void rays.
Spore Crawlers are kinda good, but the range is slightly too short once again, and hurts the economy (let's say 5 workers lost to making spores, add that to the larva you will inevitably use to make overlords that got owned). It becomes really expensive, especially if you have to rebuild queens while doing so.
Hydras require good creep spread, and come out too late (mostly because you are starving for minerals for the reason I mentionned above, so you cut on the gas a bit). Usually by the time they are ready and able, damage has been done, and/or a colossus is out already anyway. Still a decent option I guess.
Best way I found was massing them queens. This also require good creep spread, but it doesn't fuck with your larva system too much, and they can transfuse if you have enough energy.
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I've found that Phoenix are quite easily massed, even on one chrono-ed Stargate. It is quite a good opening to transition into Voidray/Colossus, which seems like one of the better unit compositions of late in PvZ. Add to the fact that Void Rays now do 20% extra damage against Broodlords and Ultralisks now, we're gonna be seeing a lot more Protoss using this strategy.
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As a zerg I was really worried with such fast pheonix timing, that it could basically elminate ovy spreads on the map, forcing to contain them, lots of queens lifted and sniped, constantly supply capped.
Anyone see this happening?
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Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.
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i can definetly see more phoenix play against z now, thats gona be annoying. other than that i dont think it is gona change much
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I welcome the change since more p is going air now and I seldom build a spire within the first 10 minutes(if at all even, though if colossi is spotted I'm pretty much forced to) so whenever it happens it's an advantage for me on the ground. I'm really happy with this change :D
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I'm not too sure about the implications of the build time increase yet. I'm sure alot of Protoss will start to open with some funky stargate builds and that some of us Zerg will QQ about it, but honestly this isn't going to turn to Protoss into some Zerg slaughtering machine.
However I do think it will be a tough time for Zerg in the MU from now on. We used to be able to kick the door in with Muta's and kick ass and chew bubble gum for most of the game (Until a large amount of Blink Stalkers of HT hit the field.) Zerg is going to have to start to rely more on other units, like the Hydralisk do to it's ability to melt gateway units and ability to shoot up (Something unheard of for Zerg in SCII). Apart of my wants to QQ because it's now going to force the Zerg down the short tech tree of the ranged ground units (T3 Lurker how I miss you so.) but if nothing else it will show Blizzard the weakness of some of the Zerg units if we can't think of anything to deal with Toss air now.
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I think that banshees are more harmful than a phoenix is. But even tough the change was unnecessary imo. I'm fine with it. (terran/protoss perspective) I'd suggest going heavy zergling vs phoenixes. But i can't really talk as i havent played much games since the patch yet. But phoenixes are cost inefficient vs Zerglings if he is commiting to it. and he probably won't have a main army force.
If he has only 3-4 phoenixes rally them overlords to your main base (i'd prefer less scouting information over dead supply needing to be rebuilt, But i do suggest keeping crucial overlords around its base. or at crucial spots )
Queens should be able to defend unless +5 phoenixes pop. at the time you should have some spore crawlers or hydras up.
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On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote: If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...
Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.
I agree, IF he's going 1star. But I'm worried that 1star expand now will be a different story, especially if he pumps only phoenix (voids are a pretty useless opener vs. burrow-roach). With that many phoenixes, with a minimal gateway backup, and perhaps a cannon or two, he might be able to stop your timing post-patch, where he wouldn't have been able to pre-patch.
Sorry if that's too convoluted lol. Just voicing some of my concerns. But I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
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On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration.
6.7 according to liquipedia
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I really like this change, it will diversify ZvP and increase mobility of protoss army. Also just randomly having ovies all over the map would be waste of minerals and zerg will be punished for that. Also forcing zerg going early evo chamber with anti-air is not that bad, gives you detection against quick DT's.
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I don't think there's a huge difference in the openings. I always get an early 3rd queen anyway so its not too hard to fight phoenix. I sometimes let them do way more than they should if protoss can hide them and move out with like 6 - 7 before I know what's up but if I didn't scout the stargates that long I would lose to them pre-patch too.
The biggest change I'm finding (this is only from the Zerg perspective so take that for what its worth) is that protoss players can now respond much quicker to broodlord switches, and I think that might have been the primary reason for the change in the first place. It kinda sucks as zerg, but I definitely feel its a bit more fair since broodlord / roach was such a powerful lategame transition and a little too unforgiving if unscouted for protoss.
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On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia
Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds.
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On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote: If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...
Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back.
My brother plays Zerg and I've noticed he goes 2 base speedling with a very early plus one sometimes as it's quite good against 4 gate pushes but I'd imagine it would be good against these phoenix openings too, with the counter attacking opportunities and option to throw down a few spore crawlers if needed.
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On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds
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It hasn't changed that much in my games. If they open phoenix I go straight to hydra and so far I've been able to straight up kill them because they have nothing to hold their base. If they don't open phoenix I still go muta pretty much every game and no one has tried reacting with phoenix yet.
I'm sure it will change as people figure out better timings to use phoenix.
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On January 13 2011 07:11 Dave. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:00 Mutarisk wrote: If 6-8 phoenixes are made that early.... you CAN counterattack...
Lately I've been favoring 2 base roach openings w/ burrow and speed against protoss. If they do void/phoenix opening, you can punish them or at the very least pin their voids/phoenixes back. My brother plays Zerg and I've noticed he goes 2 base speedling with a very early plus one sometimes as it's quite good against 4 gate pushes but I'd imagine it would be good against these phoenix openings too, with the counter attacking opportunities and option to throw down a few spore crawlers if needed.
That's a good call, I think. I'm a fan of hydra-ling in certain situations, and I may need to add this to my list.
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
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Only difference is that Phoenixes won't win you the game and they can't attack ground, plus they are freakin more expensive then mutalisks, so i don't see how going mass phoenix will stop the Zergs freaking hundred lings chewing on your entrance.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I've been trying the good ol' 2 gas 3 gate into expand but with hallucination right after warpgate research. 30 seconds off reseach time does make quite a difference and if i've managed to save up enough sentry energy, i do a quick 4~5 gate push with hallucinated zealots in front to tank damage. It's been working pretty well so far since a lot of zergs skip detection or just get an overseer to scout your base.
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yea it might almost swap the roles of p and z i think. with early phoenixes toss gets map control and prevents z from getting mutas keeping them locked in their base. z may have to get a roach hydra corruptor death ball up and push across the map together like p normally does with colossus. well see how it plays out but i think it may be a major change like the roach range buff. that buff more than anything made people consider the potential of the unit more than give a huge buff, and it may be the same for stargate play.
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ignore the trolls saying mutalisks is useless, these idiots are people who dont play the game but get satisfaction from flaming threads
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On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds
Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds...
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Incontrol pointed out on the MrBitter vids that not enough zerg use burrow to respond to pheonix harass. This isn't a solution or anything but its helped me to realize oh phoenix incoming on a farout base.. burrow queen and drones til hydra get there. Saves lots of economy with not much effort.
and yeah qq on the brood lord transition at gold/plat getting broods usually means win if you have economy (at least from my games seemed like below dia they didn't know how to hold them off as easily) but i feel like that won't be as true now *sigh* .
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On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds...
It increases the speed by 50%
That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5
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On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds
Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds.
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On January 13 2011 07:20 Pinski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds.
This isn't that complex, it shaves off a third of the build time for 20 seconds, that isn't 10 seconds. That would be true if it halved build time for 20 seconds or it worked for 30 seconds the way it currently does, but it doesn't do either of those things
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Oh god I'm gonna rage SOOOOOO hard vs protoss now :p
Ovies and queens getting sniped... It gets under my skin. Like really bad. I'm looking forward to it haha
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On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5
If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar.
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On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia
it reduces build time by a third. the 6.7 sec reduction would be per complete chronoboost. As the phoenix takes more than 1 chronoboost to fully produce it would reduce the build time by more than 6.7 seconds. It takes almost 12 seconds off the build time. Call it a 23.3 second build time rather than 35. building them that quickly would take 50 nexus energy and wouldn't be sustainable on one nexus
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I guess an early evo chamber will probably be implemented into future strategies for a spore crawler. Only way i can see of effectively dealing with the Phoenixes.
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Funny thing is protoss probably needed the phoenix buff when the patch was first considered, but now that the meta-game and strategy has shifted so much, and protoss are doing quite well against Zerg, it doesn't seem necessary anymore.
I'm just hoping Blizz does something with overlord speed/armor in the next patch, akin to observer buff, so that Zerg can actually get scouting information and not roll the dice guessing what tech route to go for.
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What owns phoenix are spores. I dont see that really changing with this patch.
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On January 13 2011 07:28 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5 If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar.
Okay it increases build time by 50% for 20 seconds (game time)
20 x 1.5 = it can build 30 seconds worth of shit in 20 seconds
20/30 = 0.67 is the real reduction. so 13.3 seconds to build something that takes 20 normally, or saving 6.7 seconds
am I wrong?
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
This is stupid. That's like saying "OMG VIKINGS! ROFL IMBA!".
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strangely enough i havent ecountered a singel Phoenix build today, even though i've been playing a lot of Ps
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because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much. Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
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Played ZvP against my mate last night and made 4 zerglings and proceded to get upto a total of 60-70 drones on 3base before pumping out units lol. Sure he sniped a few queens but serously. Just pumped drones and got a few queens and spore crawlers. I felt like a total baws!
Then collossus came out and ripped my hydras before I could get a good number of corruptors out
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On January 13 2011 07:31 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:28 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:19 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:16 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yeah, and 50% of 20 seconds is 10 seconds... In 20 seconds of game time, it does 20+10=30 seconds of building, saving 10 seconds... It increases the speed by 50% That is not doubling the speed, that is speed x 1.5 If it doubled speed, it would save 20 seconds. At 50% increase it saves 10 seconds. You're thinking that it lasts for 20 ticks of the build progress bar, which would only be 13.3 seconds of game time and save 6.7 seconds. But it's 20 seconds of game time, which at a 50% speed increase is 30 seconds of progress bar. Okay it increases build time by 50% for 20 seconds (game time) 20 x 1.5 = it can build 30 seconds worth of shit in 20 seconds 20/30 = 0.67 is the real reduction. so 13.3 seconds to build something that takes 20 normally, or saving 6.7 seconds am I wrong? I've tested in-game, start at xx:00, phoenix comes out at xx:35. Now, do the same with chronoboost, the Phoenix comes out at xx:25, try it yourself.
On a second look I dont even know what you're arguing
Oh now I do. Yeah you're right, except the chronoboost lasts for 30 "normal" seconds, not 20 like you assume in your example.
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote: because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much. Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
qft
The beginning of harass would come a bit earlier, and P might not have to do 2 starports to do an effective harass, but it's basically the same.
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote: because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much. Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
This is an important point. Since 2 phoenix = 1 colossus, the more phoenix toss makes the lesser the colossi count. Also a couple of infestors with few hydras will shut down phoenixes completely. It will usually be the early game where phoenixes will matter a lot due to the changed timings but late game it should still be the same.
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On January 13 2011 07:24 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:20 Pinski wrote:On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Which is why he said for 30 seconds of work gets done in 20 seconds. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, and allows you to do 1.5 seconds of work in 1 second. So 20 seconds of chronoboost is 30 seconds of production. Thus it shaves off 10 seconds. This isn't that complex, it shaves off a third of the build time for 20 seconds, that isn't 10 seconds. That would be true if it halved build time for 20 seconds or it worked for 30 seconds the way it currently does, but it doesn't do either of those things
You're right, it isn't that complex.
Without chronoboost, every second, 1 second of time is applied to the build time. After 20 seconds, you've done 20 seconds worth of work.
With chronoboost, every second, 1.5 seconds (50% increase) of time are applied to the build time. After 20 seconds, you've done 30 seconds worth of work.
This is ridiculously easy to verify in-game.
So yes, liquipedia is wrong, and chrono cuts off 10 seconds of buildtime.
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It doesn't change that much Usually people who get stargate tech usually expand first and get economy first to afford those paper planes The only change i can predict is that zerg won't be that passive and be more aggressive to these type of opening
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I can't believe nobody's mentioned it, but the threat of a pylon wall-in has been greatly reduced. I still don't think this makes hatch first safe, but for me at least I feel safe scouting a bit later in the match-up. I can think of some other consequences as well: -6/7 pool on steppes should be a little harder to defend with certain builds since you can't delay the lings by walling off the bottom of their ramp with 2 pylons. -Void rays will be more common I think, not because the void ray is better early/mid-game in ZvP, but because there will be more available time on the same stargate and stargates in general will be more common. Against roach/ling or roach/hydra it's clear that phoenix's aren't going to be a lategame unit. Against non-spire openings spires are used to combat colossus via the corruptor and phoenix's aren't very effective against corruptors because corruptors are armored and have equal range. -Blind roach aggression is now more dangerous: It wasn't necessarily a good idea to begin with, but now it's more dangerous as the chances that the protoss player will have a starport is greatly increased and even 1 or 2 voidrays can defend against a pretty large number of roaches.
Lategame: definitely expect more voidrays, they do additional bonus damage to broodlords and were already a pretty effective way of combating brood lords, while they won't be as mobile because of the flux vanes nerf, they're more likely to be incorporated to a mostly gateway/robo army.
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My question is: What made blizzard thing that pheonix needed to be built faster? That's stupid to me.
That being said, It's going to be hard to find something to defend against it well, and it will take lots of micro. Maybe just roach-hydra and keep the hydras back until u pick off the colossus, or mutua roach ling, and try to micro with mutas. Idk, but we need a good idea fast lol
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote: because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much. Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build.
Theorycraft says cannons are very effective against zerglings, and roaches to an extent. But even if you do get rushed by roaches, graviton beam is there to help lower dps, if not completely obliterate the rush. Ovie sniping will also severely hamper a roach build.
It will be interesting to see how this change pans out. Get at it protoss, phoenix rush galore!
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Honestly I fell that buff only helps Protoss make quicker response after seeing the spire. Even though I play zerg, from what I understand a lot of people felt that it was too hard to compensate for a responsive stargate and it try to deal the muta ball in that sense. But I could be wrong, also stating the fact that muta play isn't as popular anymore.
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I think I will have to remove Jungle Basin from my mappool now. I have no clue what to do against these pheonix builds and forcefields on the ramp.
I made it to Master League today and it is ridiculous how hard it is to win against protoss on JB. I hope I will read some decent tactics in this tread. Protoss can do to many different opening on JB and it bothers me.
1) Fast expansion and block my expansion with probe/pylon. 2) Pheonix. 3) Proxy gate ways. (I don't know why but 1 out of 10 tries this)
Problem is that I can lose to all 3 quite easily. There is no wide open places on JB and force fields are very very strong...
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Personally, I've found success with bling busts and pumping lings against phoenix. Phoenix are actually worthless against zerglings and they won't have colossus or templar out to deal with your lings. You'll have blings for sentries and mass zealots, and zerglings to take care of stalkers. Even sentries aren't as effective, since splitting a bling army in half as their moving up a ramp doesn't stop them at all.
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I was already doing 2gate/forge/stargate expands last patch, and I generally had pretty good success with it if they didn't get a fast lair and hydra den (and even then). I've only played a couple of games against muta, but in one game I massacred like 30 muta off of 1 stargate, never having more than about 8 phoenixes at one time (although there was stalker/cannon assistance). It was kind of ridiculous too, because his muta were dying insanely quickly, but he kept building more and more of them. He had an advantage briefly, but in the end he didn't have any ground army at all and I just rolled over.
Though most people aren't that stubborn...
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well i kinda practice a new build i go hatch before pool if they let me and i make constant Queens out of the 2 hatches(till i have 7-8 transfusion/creepspread is so goddamn strong) and like 6 zerglings to scout when they move out and defend with zerglings and queens and 3-4 crawler (at about 7mins i lay a evo for detection if needed) - i delay my gas untill i have ~45-50 drones than i take 2 up to 4 gas and make roaches and a spire for corrupters if needed.
That build is kinda strong against: 6gate/3gate robo/airplay - 4gate you have to scout it you need crawlers in position bad against: dt/colossirush/zlot/sentry/phenix/2gate openings good maps: medium sized maps without backdoor e.g. metalopolis close air / LT/ bad maps: shakuras (too much creep needed to attack your opponent with the queens), blistering sand cause of the backdoor..
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also in generall the patch kinda limits a ton of options since the new air units are designed to shutdown any Tier 3 and some Tier 2 Units that zerg has. I had problems against voidrays before the patch i thought they were OP before the patch and now i havent found a way to kill Voidrays unless i kill the toss after his first attack because of a build that is designed to have 2saturated bases in no time
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Met it 2/4 games today and had no problems beating it
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I don't really think mass phoenix will magically become amazing because of this change. Sure they might get more phoenixs but I think this might just force infestor play more. Will it effect much? I don't think so. Protoss already has really solid openers that don't rely on phoenixs so I don't see much changing there.
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What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only?
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On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote: What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only? standard roach/hydra?
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I like this because now combating mutas with Phoenix will be easier everytime i set muta and auto go blink stalker maybe now can throw down a few stargates.
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On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote: What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only?
.....roach hydra
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Fungal Growth? Have you tried this? works extremely well if you can catch the phoenixes with a fungal then kill with hydras.
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i like the change, it stears away from high templar abit more in favor for a rape of your overlords.
it's a good change as it limits zergs vision, which to be honest guyz comon its basically maphack 1/2 the time.
if your struggling vs them , here a few things to take note
overlord speed!! - retreat em to a safe spot hyrdisk den - don't need to make them, but having the option can be good enough deterant from the protoss massing them be agressive - this is hardest part, phonies aren't cheap nor are they strong , yes they are fast and good alot of dmg to light, but that's all, rember more of thoes things, less stuff that can figth your hordes of roaches :D
flame me if you want
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Honestly, all these changes make everybody rush to get that unit or spell suddenly. I'm seeing even more observers, phoenixes, AND hallucinations. I guess its just a small trend for the time being cause everybody wants to use these slightly buffed units and spells.
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i have to admit, pre 1.2, whenever the enemy went phoenix's, i would panic as those things are fast as hell and pick off your overlords.
I vs'd someone recently twice in a row, and his tactic was to wall off, go fast phoenixs (not too many like, 5-6, forcing me into hydras, and then id get more hydras and roaches, then he'd push with HTs, stalkers and zealots.
God that was annoying.
Phoenix play is gonna be more predominant now, man its gonna suck for me!
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a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?)
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Haven't played any games yeti in the recent patch but obviously you now need to kinda blind prepare against Phoenixes because they can get 3+ really quickly. And you don't wanna get cought off guard by these numbers of phoenixes.
So basically as a Zerg we now want our expansions up just as usual and go Hydras as quickly as possible afterwards. Going Hydras however means you won't hold a 3/4 WG push.
So it's once again a bit more volatile. Scouting is EVEN more important and you better pray you make the right choices when you aren't allowed to scout properly, which is the case usually ;P
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To be honest before patch I was always a little bit worried about hatch first on any map because of Pylons/cannon blocking my ramp. I've done OK with speedling expand and such but I'm really excited to try hatch first or other more standard early expands
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I welcome it cause when i see a FE stargate build i just go grab a 3rd and makes for a nice macro game.
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On January 13 2011 08:28 JoeCrow wrote:Fungal Growth? Have you tried this? works extremely well if you can catch the phoenixes with a fungal then kill with hydras.
Unfortunately, another part of 1.2 read,
ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth no longer affects air units
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imo corruptor muta roach still owns phoenix play
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Has there been any official explanation for the phoenix & void ray buffs? The rationale for them is not obvious to me. I was seeing plenty of phoenixes and void rays already.
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The phoenix change seems more like something they'd do to encourage more protoss to go air. It was already a phenomenally strong unit in the matchup.
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On January 13 2011 08:39 Joroth wrote: I welcome it cause when i see a FE stargate build i just go grab a 3rd and makes for a nice macro game. what gave u the illusion that a zerg can hang against protoss ina macro game without securing a mid game advantage point? to quote lalush in his BDL game againt Nightend "I almost killed one unit"
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On January 13 2011 08:39 Spreek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:28 JoeCrow wrote:Fungal Growth? Have you tried this? works extremely well if you can catch the phoenixes with a fungal then kill with hydras. Unfortunately, another part of 1.2 read, ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth no longer affects air units
Not true, that change was removed from the patch some weeks ago... Fungal still hits air.
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On January 13 2011 08:26 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote: What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only? .....roach hydra
I just feel that it would be a tuff battle for zerg because roach/hydra cant harass protoss, while phoenix can. Overlord harassment is a great for capping 2 supply hydra/roach. Phoenix will give the protoss map control. Phoenix can scout exactly what the zerg is teching. During a battle phoenix can pick up roaches and charge lots will melt hydras.
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i think with this change, the transition out of stargate will be much faster/easier. prior to the patch ive been trying to go phoenix and transition into collossi ( force Z to hydra) but it takes too long to do so
Such a minor change definitely opens up more windows other than robo collossi.
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On January 13 2011 08:43 JQL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:26 happyness wrote:On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote: What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only? .....roach hydra I just feel that it would be a tuff battle for zerg because roach/hydra cant harass protoss, while phoenix can. Overlord harassment is a great for capping 2 supply hydra/roach. Phoenix will give the protoss map control. Phoenix can scout exactly what the zerg is teching. During a battle phoenix can pick up roaches and charge lots will melt hydras. Phoenix/zealot just isn't as strong as you think it is. Try it out. If you're having a lot of trouble with your overlords getting sniped, make a SMALL number of spore crawlers, preferably near your mineral lines, and try to keep your ovies huddled near them. It will deter the phoenixes to a large extent.
Phoenixes themselves are powerful but the Protoss is going to have a tough time massing them hard enough to pick up enough roaches to make a difference in the latter stages of the midgame and the late game, and that's probably where you'll be in this situation where he actually has tons of phoenixes and zealots with charge. For what it's worth, mass hydras don't do poorly against mass chargelots, oddly enough. I think it's a surface area thing.
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I don't feel that that much has changed so far. After the first games with the new patch there has been a lot of phoenix into collos which I feel was quite strong but my last few games vs toss the toss went mainly 4 gate :/ Still have to see a pure stargate play though.
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Phoenix Chargelot with some Sentrys to back up was already my favorite build, this just make it better, Phoenixes are a very flexible unit, unlike mutas, you can actually put them in a push or defend with them.
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So how have people been playing along with their mutas? Like I want first hand opinions on if you got mutas in a particular game and how that turned out.
When I opened up with mutas and see a late stargate, it doesnt discourage me on my part. I just get an even bigger ball of mutas than theirs cause I can allocate all my gas into mutas whereas the protoss can't necessarily. But now that phoenixes build faster and are able to equal my muta count much faster, I'm going to start leaning towards the hydras a bit more...
Will this new phoenix trend cause the zerg to be discouraged in opening muta/zling? Just another build that I'll miss if it becomes nullified
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Most seem to forget that the patch also brought the "thou shall not block ramps" change, wich can be very good for fast hatch openings. Besides, if a power up in air units draw Toss into doing a bit less 4 gate, the entertainment value of games will rise
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the question is can Z get away with very early second gas against FE->double stargate. then you have some options like fungal or nydus that you normaly dont have.
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On January 13 2011 08:54 Usagi wrote:Most seem to forget that the patch also brought the "thou shall not block ramps" change, wich can be very good for fast hatch openings. Besides, if a power up in air units draw Toss into doing a bit less 4 gate, the entertainment value of games will rise 
But double expand can draw them to 2 gate zealot rush if your spawned closed and most maps are not that big.
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On January 13 2011 08:43 JQL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:26 happyness wrote:On January 13 2011 08:21 JQL wrote: What is a zerg suppose to do if protoss goes mass charge zealot and phoenix only? .....roach hydra I just feel that it would be a tuff battle for zerg because roach/hydra cant harass protoss, while phoenix can. Overlord harassment is a great for capping 2 supply hydra/roach. Phoenix will give the protoss map control. Phoenix can scout exactly what the zerg is teching. During a battle phoenix can pick up roaches and charge lots will melt hydras.
Fenix already do all that.
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Good thing that fungal growth nerf never went through.
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On January 13 2011 08:39 Spreek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:28 JoeCrow wrote:Fungal Growth? Have you tried this? works extremely well if you can catch the phoenixes with a fungal then kill with hydras. Unfortunately, another part of 1.2 read, ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth no longer affects air units
Nope. That was removed from the PTR patch quite some time ago, along with the bunker build time decrease, and the inability to hold down keys to make units.
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In the US/Euro servers I don't think this patch will affect the match-up's. Muta's were already hard to make if Protoss was going air.
I've seen 1 Protoss actually use the Sentries illusion correctly. I openned up marine/tank expo. and he did Testers 1 zealot/9 sentries opening. And because FF would of been useless he used the illusions to absorb damage which was pretty good and seems like a very good answer too Tank/Marine. SO i can see somewhere in the future where Illusion takes a big roll in PvZ / PvT.
However... Now that going Muta's is a huge risk. Protoss's may be able to just blind counter what zerg is going to do Roach/Corruptor or Roach/Hydra. Ling/Infestor just doesn't seem like it can work.
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I can't help but think these balance changes are so far behind the meta-game that its just screwing things up even more. These changes were clearly devised after GSL #2 when Zerg was on top of the world after the 1.1.2 patch, and winning both GSL's. Things have since changed drastically thanks to 2 rax, and void ray builds.
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Initial thought: For the people suggesting going heavy speedling against phoenix builds: How are we going to sustain larva production for that when queens are lifted up and killed willynilly?
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On January 13 2011 09:06 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I can't help but think these balance changes are so far behind the meta-game that its just screwing things up even more. These changes were clearly devised after GSL #2 when Zerg was on top of the world after the 1.1.2 patch, and winning both GSL's. Things have since changed drastically thanks to 2 rax, and void ray builds.
i don't have the link to the quote but i am pretty sure blizzard said that they don't balance the game because of the metagame because they know that it changes all the time.- i am pretty sure they made the changes for the observer so that more than 1 or 2 can be made in a game to help with scouting- they lowered the hallucination ability so protoss can scout eaisier and they decreased pheonix build time so that more protoss will build the units more often
also a little side note does anyone know if a collosi that is hallucinated can break a forcefield? edit: searched wikipedia and i guess they walk through it
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I guess I now have to be even more careful with overseer scouting. Sure, it takes a single phoenix 22+ volleys to kill an overseer - but if the phoenix manages to kill the overseer before it returns home to the safety of queens/spores/hydras/corruptors, that phoenix will have already paid for itself. Though it has been this way with phoenix openers, with or without the build time decrease.
Don't really want to lose that overseer due to limited early 100gas and the scouting.
+ Show Spoiler +I lost a game yesterday, LT-close air, where the Toss opened with a couple Phoenix and two void rays, all shoo'd away by 3 queens and hydras. I kept on losing my ovies and overseers near his base, though, so I blindly went with hydra-corruptor to counter thinking that he'd transition to Colo-stalker ball that I see 80% of the time my level (plus he already had stalkers sniping my creep tumors, so I know at least a robo bay is out). My 200/200 mostly hydra army melted to psi storms.
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
I actually lost a game tonight to a zerg who did a very clever tech switch to mutas, then stopped making mutas and switched back to roach. The result is I stopped going voids and made phoenix, when I needed the voids to stop his roach push.
That and I played pretty poorly that game in general.
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feels like Zerg is forced to hydra every game even more so than before, although if you manage to get corrupters its really nice cuz they r good vs the followup to phoenix/voidrays also forcing the toss into stalkersentry immortal, which is beatable with the hydraswitch, but this is wishfull thinking, doesnt really play out that way because phoenixes come way before corrupters and you will most likely need hydras to not die 
I duno, I like that you wont get pylon contained anymore atleast... I feel this was the hardest matchup in the game as Z pre patch
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I haven't played many 1.2 games yet, but I'm gonna test one stargate midgame play a lot and see what new possibilities are opened up. Unless I'm opening fast VR, which I seldom do, I almost always made 2 stargates (for mass phoenix) or none. Making phoenixes off one stargate didn't seem to really have a place; it's still a lot of gas but you couldn't really get enough to deal with mass muta or to be a real threat to ground forces. Being able to get just one or two more Phoenixes out in your first few minutes of Stargate production might make it viable to skip the second Stargate in cases where 2star phoenix used to be the standard, or perhaps even to find room for Phoenixes in situations they aren't really seen now. I never really used speedrays so the VR change is a definite buff for my play. Between the toss buffs and the attack priority nerf to repairing SCVs, this patch makes me very happy as a P main :D
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Blizz should at least give Hydra speed back
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Mutas are still ok... I was muta-linged into mass roach on my first game post patch, and I even went expo into one stargate, 5 gate. Of course I was really rusty, and my build was not refined for patch 1.2 . Will post my replay once I can figure out why it is not uploading at the moment.
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yeti, you wont get muttas out before phoenixes arrive in your base.
and they are really really trashed by phoenixes..they are really not viable in zvp anymore as main tech, you can still prob get away with going them as a techswitch when u have a bit of gas banked.
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On January 13 2011 07:34 Geo.Rion wrote: strangely enough i havent ecountered a singel Phoenix build today, even though i've been playing a lot of Ps
hey same! and i've played like 15 tosses since patch. Not one went phoenix. Even the few i had on scrap all opting for 3gate expo into 6gate
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probable reason for that is that phoenix builds require more multitask and are harder to play optimally with
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I've seen a considerable increase of phoenix openings since the patch. I haven't had too much of a problem if i can kill them before the transition to collosus, but if they are able to get some up im struggling.
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Early void to fight off any roach pushes. Then quickly mass 4 pheonix on 1 stargate. Im really suprised how fast I can mass those pheonix off 1 gate.
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Now it seems the standard build from Protoss is stargate opening with Pheonix + Void Ray into Collossus. This changes the matchup alot as Zerg are now in the defensive being forced to make Hydra and giving up total map control to Protoss.
I suppose Mutalisk will be rarely seen in this matchup as opposed to months ago where it was the standard build.
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phoenixes are wastes of money imo, you will have a much smaller army than without fenixes, everyone knows pvz is about the 200 army protoss can muster...
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Phoenix might force Hydras but it should also delay Colossus so maybe there will be a timing window that can be exploited on smaller maps.
Too bad Hydras are still really slow off creep (perhaps a speed upgrade is in order?) and for some reason, I just don't feel that they do that great against cannons in SC2 as compared to SC1.
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Haha.. Zerg users dropped to 18% in Korean server now. 24% in Master's league. People already figured out how to do the pylon block again - build three pylons, cancel the third before it finishes buidng and replace it with a cannon.
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
First of all, reducing phoenix build time does NOT make mutalisks useless on this matchup..
If an opponent does a stargate opener he will usually hit you around the same time with 1-2 phoenixs more than usual, okay i still deal with it the same way I always did.
Since most toss switch into coll after getting phoenixs I still hold it off with 4 queens while my spire builds with creep connecting my main/natural, with transfusion and proper control you can do fine and hold it off without losing too many drones same as you would with hydras. Than from there you can get corruptors enough to hold off the phoenix and start getting Mutas if you really want to go Mutas, so please stop jumping to conclusions saying Mutas cant be used in ZvP because they still can.
If your wondering im 2200+ Masters League if it actually matters.
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On January 13 2011 16:09 usethis2 wrote: Haha.. Zerg users dropped to 18% in Korean server now. 24% in Master's league. People already figured out how to do the pylon block again - build three pylons, cancel the third before it finishes buidng and replace it with a cannon.
Yeah I was thinking the same long ago, so pylon block still viable.
What about phoenix buff, I don't understand why they made it. I think phoenix harass into void/collosus will be very strong, and zerg must make some kind of all in early to win a game.
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Not a lot of experience yet but I managed to get 1 pvz off yesterday vs a 22xx diamond. I Forge FE into 2 stargate chrono phoenix, picking off his overlords before he could really spam his hydralisks (he saw my fe and went 3 hatch, cute) leaving him suddenly very quick supply blocked and then just pushing gateway units with 5 warp.
With 7 or so phoenix i could lift up 7 hydra during the battle, shifting the tides while he was blocked. My ball raped his ball.
Before this, this phoenix attack would come out 1 minute later, just at the time his timing would hit me.
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I main P, and PvZ was my best matchup pre patch.. i went through like a 15 game losing streak to flesh out a 3warpgate phx build that didn't really lose if I did it right, transition into ht/vr if the z makes it there... cols may be better for that, but im not totally convinced...
basically if the zerg didnt immediately either link, micro well and make 2 extra queens immediately or make spores they would instalose... with micro, hydras are pretty terrible vs phx.. and if you expand intelligently, roaches are likewise useless
i think that phxs worked their way up as far as importance in the metagame in the time the patch was coming, and now are even better so im not sure what to really think...
so vs zerg they were already viable, i think this also makes them better vs terran..
not that it matters but ~2600 diamond w ~50 bonus pool..
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hmmm the changes i've been seeing are that the overlords i spread for map vision get shut down pretty early and i cannot spread overlords anymore.
Also i think nix/dt openings are quite good when a toss FEs and when unscouted i think could be game ending.
But i guess us zergs have to figure out a timing when toss is weak if they do decide to open stargate
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So, lots of complaining about the strength of Phoenixes.... the thing is, the patch didn't make them any stronger. All the things you're worrying about, none of them are new. They got a build time decrease, meaning that it's more viable for P to go air with a single Stargate now.
Phoenix harrassment might now also be a few seconds earlier, but it's not like it now comes before queens, and it always did hit before hydras/mutas were out there, so nothing in terms of available counters has really changed (Not too sure on spore crawler timings, hardly ever see them).
If Protoss wants to really *mass* Phoenixes, he can now spend a greater proportion of his income doing this, and he'll have more, but that's not a good thing for him in most cases - his ground army will starve, and unlike Mutas you just cannot win the game with Phoenix, and they're virtually useless as part of the main army P is trying to build. P will fear a ground counterattack if he gets too many.
I'm not a huge Phoenix user myself, but I have tried them a couple of times post patch. I find myself building about the same number that I would have built pre-patch. Sure it's strong but I don't think it's stronger than it was before, and I think arguing about how strong it is is not really the point. It's faster to transition to now, that's it. Really not a big deal. Observer cost change was more exciting for me!
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On January 13 2011 15:24 I Hott Sauce I wrote: Blizz should at least give Hydra speed back
i have a feeling that eventually this will come in the future.
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On January 13 2011 16:39 Paradice wrote: If Protoss wants to really *mass* Phoenixes, he can now spend a greater proportion of his income doing this, and he'll have more, but that's not a good thing for him in most cases - his ground army will starve, and unlike Mutas you just cannot win the game with Phoenix, and they're virtually useless as part of the main army P is trying to build. P will fear a ground counterattack if he gets too many.
Useless as part of the army? Are you kidding me? They are awesome support unit for lifting up things. You just attack zerg and lift everything up. Not to say they are amazing vs. hydras too - they kill them in seconds and you can just lift all his hydras with phoenixes.
Maybe it's stupid to compare but I would even say that phoenixes are even better than mutas because zerg does not have a good counter to them in early game. You kill drones, queens, ovies, hydras, force spores and then attack with ground and lift everything up.
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On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote: a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?) Uhm, you do know that mutas are cheaper, and faster to build than pheonix, right?
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I would expect more protoss to explore the use of phoenix against all matchups (maybe except mirror). I usually like getting some phoenix to discourge the zerg from getting mutalisks while I switch to a ground army. Plus it provides very good map control and can be good harass units.
Also, phoenix will hands down kill mutalisks. Even when outnumbered (to a reasonable degree).
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Hey guys has anyone tried Nydus + Hydra play? The Nydus removes the primary weakness of the Hydra so you can get close to their base right away. If they went for Phoenix right away then they will be low on other units. It costs the same as 1 Zealot + 1 Sentry.
Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate?
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Well, as Z now I'm not spreading overlords, putting 2 early spore crawlers per base or I'll be owned as all P are now mad with their Phenixes and trying to hydrapush from 2 base or lately to go to roach-hydra and corruptors.
Edit: also, will try to baneling push them every single game for a while ^_^
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If we the zerg still had scourge it wouldnt be that big of a deal (if we disregard that phoenixes can shoot while moving). But as in any other strategy game you have to adapt to the changes and new strategies. Will the build time change influence ZvP? Of course it will (at least imo). Overlord/Queen/Drone harassment is tempting + Muta counter + Map control. But I dont know if Protoss can safely expand due to phoenixes. And that's where I see the problem in comparison to the bisu build in bw. 3 Gate Robo / 4 Gate push are more solid and reliable at this state. Maybe some koreans have to show us first how to play it. I would really like to see some variety in the strategies of ZvP and the response of the zerg
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So far when tosses have been going pheonixes I just straight up mass roach and kill them... Guess they are still figuring out the builds and such.
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It hasn't changed a lot for me so far, nor did it change much on the PTR. Of course I think we'll need a couple months and some pro games to really work out what will happen with faster phoenixes.
I think a couple of things are for certain, though:
1. A 'toss player who get's seduced by the buff and overbuilds phoenix too quickly will find that they leave themselves open for a roach/hydra timing attack. This was true before the patch as well.
2. Corruptors, which play a significant role in ZvP already, got that much more valuable in the matchup. I say skip hydras completely. I like going speedling/roach initially of course but instead of transitioning into hydras, I've been favoring a spire. Mutas are great in general, but really the corruptors are the key unit here. If you need quick air defense before your spire, go spore colonies IMO.
As a Zerg player, you don't want to be caught in the trap of building hydras as the Protoss moves on to Collosus. Corruptors do well against phoenixes AND collosus, so to me they just make so much more sense.
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On January 13 2011 17:04 AzureD wrote: Hey guys has anyone tried Nydus + Hydra play? The Nydus removes the primary weakness of the Hydra so you can get close to their base right away. If they went for Phoenix right away then they will be low on other units. It costs the same as 1 Zealot + 1 Sentry.
Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate?
A Nydus is really weak when building and even workers can take it out before it finishes. If Toss has Map control with Phoenix it'll be really hard to use an Ovi to make a Nydus in their base, and trying to use another unit to spot for the place you want to nydus will probably be easily found by the toss.
Also because Phoenix are used to harass the zerg I doubt they would miss you building the Nydus network.
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On January 13 2011 17:53 densha wrote: It hasn't changed a lot for me so far, nor did it change much on the PTR. Of course I think we'll need a couple months and some pro games to really work out what will happen with faster phoenixes.
I think a couple of things are for certain, though:
1. A 'toss player who get's seduced by the buff and overbuilds phoenix too quickly will find that they leave themselves open for a roach/hydra timing attack. This was true before the patch as well.
2. Corruptors, which play a significant role in ZvP already, got that much more valuable in the matchup. I say skip hydras completely. I like going speedling/roach initially of course but instead of transitioning into hydras, I've been favoring a spire. Mutas are great in general, but really the corruptors are the key unit here. If you need quick air defense before your spire, go spore colonies IMO.
As a Zerg player, you don't want to be caught in the trap of building hydras as the Protoss moves on to Collosus. Corruptors do well against phoenixes AND collosus, so to me they just make so much more sense.
I agree with this. I'm currently at platinum and after the patch I lost quite a few ZvP just because I went hydra to counter their fairly early phoenixes and then they stomped me with collosi. Protecting yourself early with spores and queens and go for spire instead have worked much better for me.
The only annoying thing is that the phoenixes shuts down a lot of my scouting as I can't have the overlords where I want them.
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Honestly, I don't really understand the pheonix buff. Muta-ling was already a pretty risky strategy in ZvP, generally only executed with plenty of space between opponents. I think we'll be seeing almost all roach-hydra-corruptor.
If ZvP is/was imbalanced, I'm not really sure a pheonix buff was the way to "fix" it. Surely couldn't have been a PvT fix?!
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I don't see a huge difference to be honest. Just scout like I normally do, if I see Stargates get earlier 3rd gas and hydra den.
Hydras still disintegrate phoenix, it just means you have to be prepared for different timings...
Corruptors can work later on, but i always like to start with hydras since they come so much quicker and cost less gas. That spire has always seemed painfully slow and with the timing changes, it's even worse.
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The one thing I found after playing a few games is, that I felt really comfortable chrono-boosting phoenixes out of a single stargate for harassment purposes. Before the change I almost always built 2 stargates to get the necessary amount of phoenixes out fast enough so it would matter. Currently I'm playing around with a 3 gate expand pressure (still not sure about a 4th gateway) with a quick(er) stargate instead of the robotics. The robotics follows afterwards obviously. Before the patch you might have seen hasuobs (among others) go with 3 gate expo 2 stargate....I have always been a strong proponent of 2 stargates to make the harassment really do the damage, but now I don't think the additional 150 gas are worth it anymore. Especially if you don't lose focus and constantly use chrono boost on the stargate.
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OK, heres my noticeable's:
- Phoenix early is now a real problem for early queen/voidray harrass. A couple of phoenix can be in your base before your second queen pops, and if out fast enough a 3rd can continuously deny queens as soon as they spawn.then a 4th can freely float the map popping your early overlords..
- Voidray / chargelot late game against ultras is fucking difficult to stop. lol
- no more pylon ramp blocks which is a godsend. Dont have to bother patrolling a drone at the foot of the ramp now.
- still completely stomped by near-unscoutable 4gate 1 gas stalker/zealot/15probe all-in. Happened 3/5 games last night.
things seem a little bit hard for zergypieces again.
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On January 13 2011 07:01 Tump wrote: I've found that Phoenix are quite easily massed, even on one chrono-ed Stargate. It is quite a good opening to transition into Voidray/Colossus, which seems like one of the better unit compositions of late in PvZ. Add to the fact that Void Rays now do 20% extra damage against Broodlords and Ultralisks now, we're gonna be seeing a lot more Protoss using this strategy.
As a wild idea off reading this post (bold points of note). Do you think a deviation of muta ling will appear. In-particular. Ling - Corruptor builds?
Corruptors to counter phoenix/collossi/void, Speed Ling to take advantage of the weak ground defense. Possibly?
Could also be a mix of corruptor/Muta. 2 groups of Mutas to counter phoenix and harass, the 2nd group to sit back for base defense, corruptors up front engaging collossi with forward group of mutas focusing down voids, Slings on the flank avoiding collosi tryna poke in for econ damage/run-bys abusing speed advantage. Would be crazy micro intensive.
Bit of a mad idea, but hey, kinda makes sense to me. feel free to shoot down my crazy ideas
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Stupid question and not too sure about it. Can you support pumping phoenix non stop out of 2 stargates + a reasonable ground army of zealots and say a very few sentries off of one base? If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff.
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Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-).
Maybe Blizzard wants us to get Infestors to stop phoenix but they cost tons of gas (which you cant really afford on only 2bases) and they're useless against all the other Protoss Units -_-
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On January 13 2011 18:42 ICA wrote: Stupid question and not too sure about it. Can you support pumping phoenix non stop out of 2 stargates + a reasonable ground army of zealots and say a very few sentries off of one base? If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff.
No way, double stargates suck up way too much money and are very hard to transition out of. You'll need to expand or stop making phoenixes completely if you want any kind of formidable ground army.
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On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-).
Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man.
I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
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On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now.
In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to.
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On January 13 2011 18:58 IPS.Mardow. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now. In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to.
And that's what this thread is for good sir.
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Really, I think that infestor could play a bigger part in this MU.
One, Fungal can still hit air. With Roach/Hydra you can fungal the pheonixes and clean them up pretty easily. If they techswitch to collosuss, it's just a matter of researching neural parasite and tryign to get a hit on the collosuss. If you can do that, you will clean up a protoss army quick.
If they tech switch to HT, you can switch over to broodlords with roach(IF you get to that late in the game) and then make sure to have extra corruptor to protect the broodlord.
I think if zerg can master this type of tech switching and micro, then they will do really well against pheonix.
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On January 13 2011 18:42 ICA wrote: Stupid question and not too sure about it. Can you support pumping phoenix non stop out of 2 stargates + a reasonable ground army of zealots and say a very few sentries off of one base? If so I feel that this with a transition into coloss could be quite strong, if not I don't see any problem with the buff.
Tried it, does not work.
You cant support it, you will get boxed in and the zerg will out expand you and out produce you.
(2500 diamond)
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Speaking of this change, a lot of tosses have been trying it out. But the usual strat works just fine going a couple or equal numbers of corrupters as he goes phoenix when you get air control just mass lings/speedroaches and expand and be agressive/harras and you'll win if you dont mess up to much. At least from my experience.
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On January 13 2011 19:06 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:58 IPS.Mardow. wrote:On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ We'll see in the future but MY opinion is that it's way too strong (=imba) now. In BW it wasn't because you had good spore colonies, good hydras and scourges. Mass Corsair was good but also easy to counter when you knew how to. And that's what this thread is for good sir.
I think he's saying that Zerg have no good mobile GtA so thus there isn't much room to explore possible counters to phoenix play to regain map control. I tend to agree with him. Once phoenixs are out I think map control will be in the hands of the P until he gets careless or you have infestors with fungal.
The problem I see is how to get infestors when you don't have map control to get another base up. Puzzling.
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Coming from someone who doesn't muta zvp very often, this is this pretty scary because I have gotten to the point that only a 1 gas 4 warpgate is scary and anything after that feels so late but pheonix builds are going to be ~30 seconds faster to the point when they can go serious damage which means you'll have 1 less queen out or so when he can start lifting them which is bad so you're going to have to be careful. As a mid game fungal will always be great, or corruptors, both of which are useful against colossus. I'm honestly more scared of straight up strong gateway into 1 or 2 robo colossus after expo openings.
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I'll definitely have to agree that mutalisks have completely lost their viability in this match-up when Protoss rushes stargate tech. There is absolutely no reason to not go phoenixes. They give an unparalleled amount of map control and force the production of a unit so easily countered by gateway units, colossi, charged voidrays, or mass phoenix graviton beam lifting to keep the hydra and queen count low. This is somewhat similar to the early mass reaper strat: either ending the game quickly or forcing the production of roaches which in turn were shut down by a quick switch to marauders with stim.
Mutalisk use in ZvT remains a good strategy because Terran has a very effective response to defending mutalisks that aren't effectively and efficiently hard-countered by a single unit in the zerg army (meaning not even banelings with appropriate micro and tank spread).
Corruptors against phoenixes are nice, but what do they do to deal with Protoss's ground army? Phoenixes still have graviton beam to help in mid-late game fights. Not to mention void rays also deal with corruptors quite nicely.
Yes, infestor use with mutalisks help with the phoenix issue, but how in the world will you possibly get your infestors to defend your mutalisks in time outside of your base?
Zerg tier three is completely shut down by void rays, so those are out of the question. It seems our only chance at the moment is to either hope Protoss makes a mistake throwing away his units, or we catch them an early timing push of roaches and zerglings.
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the only change i'm making is always getting an evo chamber when i scout a stargate whereas before i didn't react instantly with an evo chamber. i think i'll just copy july for now and tech to 5 corrupters early on and use them like a substitute for scourge, that worked for him in pretty much every game he dealt with the stargate builds (which was many times), and when he lost, it was because of some mistake later in the game.
mutalisks suck in PvZ, they only fit when the protoss does an old (read: poor) build order which involves not massing gates, not getting a stargate and not taking an expansion before attacking. in other words, only when they robo expand and tech to units that have nothing for mutalisks. if you won with them despite the build order advantage, you were just taking advantage of people who don't know how to deal with mutas well
your build should not be that different when you see a stargate now except for the fact that you need to be able to make spore crawlers faster to make up for the fact that phoenixes are out faster. you just need 1 so if they camp over your mineral line, the phoenixes get pelted, maybe 1-2 more if they have like 8-10 phoenixes but even that's probably an overreaction
everyone always overreacts so crazy every time there's a patch whether it's a big deal or not, just calm the fuck down. the strategies you should be doing aren't completely destroyed because a group of phoenixes come out 30-60 seconds earlier unless they were bad in the first place
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Any build that incorporates Phoenix now has these options:
1) Achieve the Phoenix count earlier (at the cost of delaying other spending) 2) Accrue additional Phoenix at the normal time (but you still have to pay for them) 3) Start building Stargates/Phoenix later, but still get the Phoenix at the normal time 4) Save Chronoboosts for other things
I used to open 1 gate 1 stargate in PvZ, into +1 Phoenix harass supported by a small ground force. Now, because Phoenix build faster, I can more readily disguise my build as something else, by getting a Stalker and +1 Air Weapons first to simulate a Warpgate opening, without jeopardizing the four-Phoenix timing. Or I can just start harassment sooner.
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i am currently just going nydus blindly since all toss go 1gate2stargate
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I love how this whole thread is bitching about phoenix build time when the fact that you can't block a ramp with 2 pylons is far far far more important with regards to PvZ metagame.
Especially when you consider these new GSL maps which support forge FE very nicely, the ramp change is by far the more important one.
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So today my friend did a totaly imbalanced shit on me - he went for a 3 gate stalker and made a twilight in an overlord-scoutable place and made me totaly think that he is going blink stalker. So I prepare for that. Then out of fucking nowhere come 4 fenixes and rape the shit out of me and I mean they come out like really fast.
I was so pissed because when I looked at the replay - there was absolutely no fucking way for me to scout it. Absolutely no way. All I can do in this situation is to guess and prepare for what i chose to because there s no way in hell i can prepare for both and survive.
Absolutely ridicilous what protoss can do to you, they just have soo many options to fuck up your predictions completely.
Now this sucks because this implies a HUGE luck factor in this game and I hate luck factors. I absolutely hate it.
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On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[
Stop making the blind assumption that the game is balanced. It makes me sick. You believe in balanace like some Africans do in coca-cola bottle, which they even worship as a deity.
I do NOT say that the game is imbalanced nor do I say that it is balanced because I don`t know .You have no fucking proof that it is, the game is too young so stop picking on people who complain about imba because there are chances that they may be right.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm expecting higher Queen counts to become standard, which will defang early/surprise Phoenix play.
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I play P and used stargate builds a good amount before the patch. This really doesn't change very much with the matchup. In my experience having a couple of more phoenixes doesn't mean very much when it comes to facing hydras (the common response).
It does help some in that your phoenix harass gets there a little earlier. Its nice that I can have 4 phoenixes in his base sooner but really the damage done and the responses from the zerg have been pretty much the same before and after the patch.
Something I haven't experienced yet though is trying to use phoenix reactively against mutas. Before it was a preventative thing.. you couldn't really respond to mutas by going phoenix because you would never be close enough to his muta count. Maybe with the patch it would be more viable to try that but I still doubt it.
Remember the fungal growth change didn't go through. Fungal + Hydras or even a good amount of mutas still does very well regardless of the extra few phoenixes thrown in.
I find the change more interesting in the other matchups. Phoenix/Collosus will probably be a little more popular and it will help with reactively getting phoenixes against some of the Terran one-base banshee/raven/X pushes.
Also in PvP it is a very common situation to find yourself in when you have done some kind of gateway pressure into semi-fast expansion build. You know a one-base collosus push is coming.. maybe with this change + the VR damage against massive increase we will see more stargate play in the matchup.
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From what I can tell as a random player, the whole match up is broken now, 10 second phoenix build time destroyed the match up/idra rant
It all seems fine, mutas are still viable, especially at our non pro level of play where if a guy spends all of his energy microing phoenix against them, he will lose in the long run. Protoss just needed to not be screwed if they didn't have a stargate and the guy was slowly adding on mutas, there was no way to catch up phoenix wise. of course you can't go muta against opening stargate builds, just like how you can't go 3 gate expand against a cloak banshee build, mutas are viable, you just have to actually time it, instead of just being like "well I have these mutas and he doesn't have a stargate so I auto win."
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On January 13 2011 07:01 Zergbong wrote: As a zerg I was really worried with such fast pheonix timing, that it could basically elminate ovy spreads on the map, forcing to contain them, lots of queens lifted and sniped, constantly supply capped.
Anyone see this happening?
agree 100% on this !! protoss are going to have phoenix up so fast to harras air and kill ovies and its going to make scouting for zerg extremely hard !!
also when i try to go hydras (not mass) they are nullified by 1-2 collosus !! this is definitely the hardest match-up for me (i am only mid- platinum player), specially when zerg have no answer to forcefields and most maps have choke points that make it impossible for zerg to swarm or attack !
not sure if any high level zerg agree with me also !!
i would suggest though to make ovie speed cheaper like 100/50 or even 50/50 !!
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I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7. Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I missed the zerg tears, glad to see theyre back. From my games post-patch, nothing that new to report. If zerg gets an extra queen blindly they're fine and can reactively deal.
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I don't feel like it's too much of an issue because the cost did not change.
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote: I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7. Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points . Thats worth it imo ^^
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On January 13 2011 20:13 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: I love how this whole thread is bitching about phoenix build time when the fact that you can't block a ramp with 2 pylons is far far far more important with regards to PvZ metagame.
Especially when you consider these new GSL maps which support forge FE very nicely, the ramp change is by far the more important one.
Not really. The pylon block was basically a free win for the P if it got off. I've only seen HongUn screw up a pylon block by reverting to added cheese instead of just solid play. So I wouldn't say it's this "important PvZ metagame shift". It's just no longer a free win for the P.
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On January 13 2011 23:47 brentsen wrote: I don't feel like it's too much of an issue because the cost did not change.
^^ This. It might mean that mutas might be used less now since Protoss can react more quickly and mass up phoenixes to deal with them and as other posters said, it makes early voids more likely but other than that I don't see this changing my ZvP strat that much. I'm actually hoping the Phoenix buff can encourage more infestor play since I think a lot of players don't use this unit often enough (including myself). Who knows? We might actually see some good infestor builds (if not builds then at least new uses for it), which means more weapons for the Swarm
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Phoenixes already were a great unit pre-patch, build time really has changed nothing, as for using the buff you need more resources, wich means less ground army, so you can just punish with a early push, even just a faint attack to make the phoenix waste theyre energy, if you go for a roach speedling there is not cost effective way to use the phoenix against it.
As some people has seen it, it will encourage the use of the phoenix in all MU, witch is great, infestor and ghost, even reaper, need something like this so people will use them more often.
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On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote: a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?)
WTF? Since when has 150/100 been cheap in comparison to 100/100?
Also, the fact that your opponent has revealed phoenixes is enough for a Zerg to commit to roach+hydra and get Corruptors. I guarantee you that a roach+hydra timing attack will kill the Protoss because the tech switch to colossus/HT leaves a huge timing window until storm/thermal lance is/are researched.
Personally I think we're gonna see a lot more burrowed roach play. Last patch the only solution to muta+ling was a 6 gate timing attack (which only sometimes works, as exemplified by tester) or the 2 star FE build. Now, muta+ling is still viable but it doesn't completely kill most toss builds. However, I think roach-based builds will just become more popular. It's essentially what happened with PvT:
In PvT nowadays, we see marauder+Viking+ghost. The same composition exists for Zerg: just replace the Marauder with the roach, the Viking with the corruptor, and the ghost with the infestor. Zerg players have an advantage in T3 units and the ball itself by teching to ultras and broodlords, but Terrans have harassment capability in blue flame and banshees. Both compositions work because the backbone of the strategy (roaches or Marauders) is cost efficient against all gateway units. For T, ghosts must combat the HTs, but Zerg players can simply burrow to avoid storm.
The scary part is that, IMO, toss players have no good way of responding to Zerg when they execute this composition correctly.
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Has anyone tried to go spore + a lot of queens + infestors off 2 bases, then mutas when you have 2 extra gas ?
Could it work ?
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On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote: I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7. Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker.
What did patch 1.2 have to do with any of that?
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On January 14 2011 00:38 dafunk wrote: Has anyone tried to go spore + a lot of queens + infestors off 2 bases, then mutas when you have 2 extra gas ?
Could it work ?
yes, unless of course your opponent actually builds something other than phoenixes.
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On January 14 2011 00:31 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote: a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?) WTF? Since when has 150/100 been cheap in comparison to 100/100? Also, the fact that your opponent has revealed phoenixes is enough for a Zerg to commit to roach+hydra and get Corruptors. I guarantee you that a roach+hydra timing attack will kill the Protoss because the tech switch to colossus/HT leaves a huge timing window until storm/thermal lance is/are researched. Personally I think we're gonna see a lot more burrowed roach play. Last patch the only solution to muta+ling was a 6 gate timing attack (which only sometimes works, as exemplified by tester) or the 2 star FE build. Now, muta+ling is still viable but it doesn't completely kill most toss builds. However, I think roach-based builds will just become more popular. It's essentially what happened with PvT: In PvT nowadays, we see marauder+Viking+ghost. The same composition exists for Zerg: just replace the Marauder with the roach, the Viking with the corruptor, and the ghost with the infestor. Zerg players have an advantage in T3 units and the ball itself by teching to ultras and broodlords, but Terrans have harassment capability in blue flame and banshees. Both compositions work because the backbone of the strategy (roaches or Marauders) is cost efficient against all gateway units. For T, ghosts must combat the HTs, but Zerg players can simply burrow to avoid storm. The scary part is that, IMO, toss players have no good way of responding to Zerg when they execute this composition correctly. Use observers, seriously?
Burrowing roaches against storm only works if the protoss doesnt have observers and collosi. The only benefit of burrow moving roaches versus storm is when a protoss rushed for HT instead of collosi. If a roach moves slower and has no capability to attack, what makes you think that protoss has no answer to a slighly less immobile, retreating, not attacking unit?
Protoss has compositions that work against all zerg units, likewise, zerg has strong compositions versus the protoss, abeit being out a bit later than the protoss.
Phoenixes are definitely all the rage all of a sudden, which is very annoying. I've always disliked phoenixes because they force me to make units that I'd rather forget that they ever existed. I just need to adapt to the sillyness and get some evo chamber out quicker and just sporecrawler around my entire mineral line and plant all my scouting overlords inside the ring.
Although the only thing I'm looking forward is that this change might make PvP from a complete and utter 4gate million collosus matchup into something more dynamic. I honestly hate watching that match up in tournaments, as it hardly ever gets to the third base. Who am I kidding right :D?
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At the very least more phoenix play should make for more interesting games. Phoenix require more micro (durrr a-move colossus) and require you to keep your attention in more places than just your base/the front of your base.
I never used Phoenix that much so my control and awareness still sucks, but I'm looking forward to using a funner unit.
Also, zerg has two 'hard counters' to phoenix: Corrupters, which provide a good late-game transition into broodlords, and Infestors, which are pretty badass anyways. In the most recent GSL's I've seen two pretty big phoenix fleets get completely wiped by fungal. When 2 phoenix = 1 colossus, this is a huge loss to the toss player. I guess the biggest pain to zergs will be before they get infestors out, this could suck for muta-based play.
I was finally getting good at using pressure and blink to hurt a player who goes hard muta, this might actually be bad for toss like me if we don't adapt. We should all definitely wait a few weeks to see how the game develops before crying imba too hard though.
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@ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use.
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On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use.
this is actualy wrong.
a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit.
a chronoboosted Phoenix takes now 29 ingame seconds, not 25 seconds.
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I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready
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On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post
Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful.
I don't think phoenix openings are very good. The phoenix expand just has such a big window of weakness where zerg can end the game with a roach army and a few hydras. There's no way you're going to have robo units or enough gateway units out to stop attacks at 80-100ish food from zerg after opening with a phoenix expand style build.
1 base phoenix with 3 gates isn't that bad though. It's sort of the new 4 gate. It's a somewhat stable 1 base early aggression build where it's possible to transition into a long game against zerg if you were able to do enough damage even if you couldn't win the game. It seems more sensetive to being scouted and hard-countered.
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On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote: I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready
You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor.
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On January 14 2011 04:59 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful.
when has mutalisks NOT been a harassment unit???? they have never beaten any unitcomp that could shoot up the air in a straight fight...they are not supposed to (not claiming that they should)
and mutalisks were always countered by 2gate phoenix, just not if you start your stargates after you notices mutas out on the field.. now they are so accessible/entire stargate tree is much more accessible.
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I have only had one person go phoenix vs me since the patch. They got quite a few ground units first and i was just lucky enough to get an ovie in their base to see a double stargate coming. I had just my lair and had an evo chamber. I dropped 2 spores in mineral lines and put my queen in between them. Once lair finished I got hydra. I was able to get a few hydra out before he sent phoenix to my base. He was able to kill a few units, but nothing game breaking. I just continued with hydra/roach +1 attack/armor and started attacking while taking 3rd expo.
The phoenix build time just means get that ovie in their base to see if they are going stargate (sacrificing if needed) and get your lair a little early. I don't think it really changed pvz too much.
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Roach-Hydra will stomp Stargate builds to hell. This change only gives Protoss enough time to tech switch to Phoenixes if Mutas hit the board. Unless, of course, the Protoss is going for a Phoenix-DT push.
Robo builds still seem like the best build for cost effectiveness against all races.
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On January 14 2011 05:06 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 04:59 Drowsy wrote:On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful. when has mutalisks NOT been a harassment unit???? they have never beaten any unitcomp that could shoot up the air in a straight fight...they are not supposed to (not claiming that they should)
they did / do against protoss in a large number with +2 attack upgrade
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On January 14 2011 05:01 PiLoKo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote: I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor.
you cant kite corrupters with phoenixes, its not doable. Yes phoenixes are way faster than corrupters. but corrupters are practiclly imune to phoenixfire with their armor armored-type and very high hp. Look at the way julyzerg dealt with the phoenxiopening was very intressting, he opened up with a very quick spire and went corrupters and then made the switch to hydras when collosus was less than desireable because of all the corrupters with upgrades already out on the field.
in short, corrupters may not be a hard counter (retarded term btw) but its a very good response to phoenixes _if_ you manage to get that spire up before he can wreck to much havoc in your base...
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Dangit Zergbong, if you can type English this well why use John ^.^
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On January 14 2011 05:06 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 04:59 Drowsy wrote:On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful. and mutalisks were always countered by 2gate phoenix, just not if you start your stargates after you notices mutas out on the field
That's kind of the point. What if colossi didn't counter hydras if you built your robotics bay after you saw hydras on the field? Protoss had relatively limited scouting options at the period in the game when the spire was being built. It was virtually impossible to get 2 gates up before you actually saw mutas on the field, so it was totally BS that spamming mutas would counter 2star phoenix if the stargates weren't constructed until the mutas were out. Why do you think 6gate was so popular? It was just too difficult to anticipate mutas and respond in time. It was way better to just try and end the game before the unstoppable muta deathball got to critical mass and you couldn't ever leave your base.
I think it was absolutely ridiculous that even if a protoss player was able to fend of harassment with stalkers he could still lose to mass muta while pumping their counter unit out of 2 stargates.
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On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. a chronoboosted Phoenix takes now 29 ingame seconds, not 25 seconds.
Hi you seemed to have failed basic math. 200% of 20 seconds is 40 seconds. 150% of 20 seconds is 30 seconds.
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8748 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:12 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:01 PiLoKo wrote:On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote: I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor. you cant kite corrupters with phoenixes, its not doable. it's more difficult than some other kiting situations but it's still possible since shields regenerate faster than zerg health
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8748 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:21 Warlock-X wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. a chronoboosted Phoenix takes now 29 ingame seconds, not 25 seconds. Hi you seemed to have failed basic math. 200% of 20 seconds is 40 seconds. 150% of 20 seconds is 30 seconds. What does that have to do with his post? He's talking about speed and you give some figures for time.
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are you NesTea? Your TL name is Zergbong....
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On January 14 2011 05:21 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:06 arnold(soTa) wrote:On January 14 2011 04:59 Drowsy wrote:On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Wrong. Now it's a harassment unit. Not something you can mass spam all game long even when toss reacts with the appropriate double stargate counter. Forcing toss to go double stargate by just opening muta is very powerful still and makes your hydra/roach force that much more powerful. and mutalisks were always countered by 2gate phoenix, just not if you start your stargates after you notices mutas out on the field That's kind of the point. What if colossi didn't counter hydras if you built your robotics bay after you saw hydras on the field? Protoss had relatively limited scouting options at the period in the game when the spire was being built. It was virtually impossible to get 2 gates up before you actually saw mutas on the field, so it was totally BS that spamming mutas would counter 2star phoenix if the stargates weren't constructed until the mutas were out. Why do you think 6gate was so popular? It was just too difficult to anticipate mutas and respond in time. It was way better to just try and end the game before the unstoppable muta deathball got to critical mass and you couldn't ever leave your base. I think it was absolutely ridiculous that even if a protoss player was able to fend of harassment with stalkers he could still lose to mass muta while pumping their counter unit out of 2 stargates.
it was never close to impossible to get two stargates out before spire, dont know where that gem came from. stargate tech isnt a loss either if Z doesnt go mutas, phoenixes and voidrays are super good vs zerg even if he goes the straight counter (hydras) because he will lose mapcontrol, all overlords will be shot down that are outside his mainbase and he will be contained in a similair manner in which protosses are against mass mutas... only close to the end of the last patch did the good tosses really start to abuse stargate tech against zerg and it clearly showed good promise-> then blizzard goes and gives BOTH phoenixes and voidrays a buff, even temporarily removing fungals ability to hit air ..blizzard WOW. close call.
Imo stargate tech is the best choice against zerg, because hydras are such an investment for such a defesive unit, especially considering how TERRIBLE they are off creep. mounting any sort of spontaneous attack or counter attack with them is practiclly impossible, hit'n'running/microing them, withdrawing is impossible, they are a A-move unit off creep basiclly.
the best thing about going stargate tech is you pre-empt spire to so hard, it forces zerg down this narrow easily countered techpath we dont want to go...little bit of rant but your post confused me.......
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I've seen a lot of gsl games where phoenix gets countered by fungal growth. Perhaps the correct response to gate/phoenix open is to get hydra then infestation pit.
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I got phoenixes almost every game as toss or a warp prism so i don't mind the reduced build time, probably will use my chronoboost elsewhere to not get a gas problem. With the new build time change you will be able to tech switch easier to air.
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I haven't seen a change in my ZvP play because I always went roach/hydra/corruptor into broodlords. Stargates weren't really used against me because I wasn't using mutalisks in the first place. I will say that i'm getting harassed more by phoenixes just flying by to lift up drones and try to take them out, on the other hand they see i'm not getting a spire and tend to slack off on the phoenixes and then go voidray. By that point hydralisks should be in your army comp so all good . The change IMO is mostly voiced by people that used mutalisks in their comps alot.
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On January 14 2011 05:12 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:01 PiLoKo wrote:On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote: I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor. you cant kite corrupters with phoenixes, its not doable. Yes phoenixes are way faster than corrupters. but corrupters are practiclly imune to phoenixfire with their armor armored-type and very high hp. Look at the way julyzerg dealt with the phoenxiopening was very intressting, he opened up with a very quick spire and went corrupters and then made the switch to hydras when collosus was less than desireable because of all the corrupters with upgrades already out on the field. in short, corrupters may not be a hard counter (retarded term btw) but its a very good response to phoenixes _if_ you manage to get that spire up before he can wreck to much havoc in your base...
It definitely is possible to kite corrupters with phoenixes (phoenixi? whats the plural form of phoenix...) Phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, corrupters need to stop to shoot, although they do have longer range. But since the phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, it can kite the corrupters across the map. The corrupters don't HAVE to follow, but they won't get any kills either, so I don't see how corrupters are a good solution to phoenixes
EDIT: I'm trying to get into your head here so I may be on the wrong track, but are you thinking of using a cpl corrupters are each expo and using them as mobile spore crawlers? I assumed you wanted to kill the phoenixs, not just stop harassment, which corrupters would do.
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Fungal vs Phoenix people. It must be done. Start practicing your spell micro.
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1. FFE into ... 2. 2 Gate Zealot Rush (make 2nd gate before Core or Gas), always makes a great wall off for your natural too when they try to Baneling Bust or all in Ling you and gives you the ability to pressure/force Roaches or Spines in a FFE build. 3. SURPRISE! Two Stargate Phoenix Harass while they frantically make Hydralisks and/or Spore Crawlers 4. Meanwhile, take third Base while making Colossus/Voidray. Two Star Voids along with Cannons and Warpgate reinforcements should be quite enough to stop any kind of Roach bust. 5. Zerg death sometime later... make sure to have good macro and get lots of upgrades as well as add Stalkers to your unit composition to stop Corruptors.
Recipe for success in 1.2 PvZ
(Coming soon: Recipe for success in 1.2 ZvP: Build Infestors)
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I will be doing Dimaga style Ling / Infestor against Phoenix builds, which is cool because it also works well against many other things toss does as well. Infestor / queen / spore crawler or two for defense. Once I land just one fungal growth, many Phoenixes will die. Not to mention I will have a lot of offensive power with Graviton sucking against speedlings.
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Am I the only one happy when I see phoenix as zerg? I can shut down the phoenix harass with corruptors for half the resource cost. If they get a lot of phoenix I can get +1 air armor and transition to air as the toss attempts to transition out of phoenix.
Either way, Having corruptors out already will greatly lower the threat of the protoss collosi.
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On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. a chronoboosted Phoenix takes now 29 ingame seconds, not 25 seconds.
No he's right, if he was incorrectly assuming chrono doubled the production speed he would get 35/2 = 17.5 seconds.
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On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit.
LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread.
What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything.
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On January 14 2011 06:52 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread. What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything.
So a single chrono boost + half a chrono is roughly 10 seconds... what are you arguing?
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On January 14 2011 00:21 IPS.Mardow. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote: I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7. Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker. Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points  . Thats worth it imo ^^
Lol what Mardow. Your a Pro, and this is your advice? While i don't believe it to be wrong, its just rather depressing thinking that this truly is the case.
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On January 13 2011 20:34 UFO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 18:56 Hobokinz wrote:On January 13 2011 18:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wasnt it obvious that phoenix would be imba after the patch? 35 seconds is ridiculous and to be able to move out and gain some map control you HAVE TO get hydras although theyre crap. A clever Protoss just transitions from phoenix into colossi and Zerg is done.
I already had many probs with that strat prepatch and I dont see how Zerg is supposed to stop that with those super slow crappy Hydras (and no scourge -.-). Look at the OP before posting please. Nothing is imba here my good man. I agree that us Zerg will have a hard time but it's hardly imba. We'll think of something or else Blizzard will fix it. Please don't post these kinda things there it really makes TL look bad. =[ Stop making the blind assumption that the game is balanced. It makes me sick. You believe in balanace like some Africans do in coca-cola bottle, which they even worship as a deity. I do NOT say that the game is imbalanced nor do I say that it is balanced because I don`t know .You have no fucking proof that it is, the game is too young so stop picking on people who complain about imba because there are chances that they may be right.
Wat? You're getting all upset because I'm actually trying to be rational here? Did you even read the two posts? I'm not saying that his game is perfectly balanced by any means, however useless posts saying that the game is all imba is not something that should be on the TL forums.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
Do we have start the patch whining already? Common people give the patch some time before screaming imba. The only thing we know at the moment is that toss is better than it used to be because of the buffs, we have yet to see the new builds / strats that come with it. Who knows zergs might invent a new build like terrans figured out the 2 rax build even after zergs got buffed in the previous patch.
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On January 14 2011 07:04 Cyanocyst wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 00:21 IPS.Mardow. wrote:On January 13 2011 23:12 Koshi wrote: I hate Jungle basin. I fucking hate that map. Now I will have to play on LT I guess, my hate for Jungle Basin + Protoss grew bigger than Lost Temple + Terran.
Ridiculous how it is impossible to fast attack a protoss on JB, sentries blocking the ramp 24/7. Thus, how it is possible for a protoss to be ahead in enconomy without any risk.
Then the rest of the game it is just me being a madman and trying to max out and then getting owned by Collosus/Void Ray/Sentry/Stalker. Imo the best strat on Jungle Basin vs Protoss is to "gg" right away. No frustration, no long stupid game, you only lose some points  . Thats worth it imo ^^ Lol what Mardow. Your a Pro, and this is your advice? While i don't believe it to be wrong, its just rather depressing thinking that this truly is the case. I just read sarcasm written all over the place
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speed ling, fast hydra with overlord creep spread with a couple spine crawlers and ur golden vs fast expand stargate. games over. hydras own gateway units. hydras own phoenix. seems to me pretty easy to deal with. that and get 1 or 2 extra queens. ppl just use roaches too much. i hate roaches garbage units. never have liked em. ling hydra is just so much better vs toss early-mid game. easy peasy lemon squeezy.
edit:
On January 13 2011 19:19 Popsycle wrote:YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK ABOUT PHOENIX, I STILL THINK THEY WILL BOW DOWN TO ..... THIS http://i.imgur.com/UCu86.jpg LOL awesome picture
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Facts about Chronoboost:
-Chronoboost adds 50% production speed for its duration of twenty game-seconds.
-One Chronoboost will allow a structure to produce ten extra game-seconds worth of units/upgrades.
-If one Chronoboost is used fully to accelerate the same upgrade/unit, that upgrade/unit will complete ten seconds earlier.
-Chronoboost costs 25 energy, which a nexus regenerates in slightly more than fourty game-seconds. As a consequence, one Nexus can Chronoboost ~half the time, and two Nexuses can permanently Chronoboost a single target.
Chronoboost isn't voodoo. I'm a little disturbed that not all Protoss players know this.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
, fast hydra with overlord creep spread 1) Buy overlord speed 2) Move ovies everywhere you need 3) Start generate creep 4) We got upgrade for hydra speed!
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I'm having issues trying to use the phoenix. I dabbled a bit pre-patch, and now with the build time reduction, my primary issue with them is less noticeable. While they're phenomenal against mutalisks (Basically I could indefinitely keep mutas away from my probes), against lots of little units they lose power. I've always had problems with zergling runbys, but the phoenix taking resources away from my ground army really cuts into fighting that. Now, I did 3 gates into stargate, so it could just be "Wow, you're a fucking retard." What's a popular, or good, way to get to the phoenix? I did figure a protoss version of a 1/1/1 build, though I have no idea what composition I'd be aiming for. 4 phoenixes to harass, then throw down some gateways after expand and tech to colossus? It seems like it leaves me a lot of options early on to respond to what my enemy is doing, except early pushes seem...intimidating. Low (very low, ~800-900) diamond if that means anything.
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Guys a phoenix come out of a stargate as soon as the CB finishes if u CB as soon it started so i almost has a CB duration.
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it doesn't really make any difference. phoenix openings are still rather vulnerable to early attacks that can do crippling damage.
it really has no effect on the matchup. muta/ling isn't much of an option anymore, but it was like that prepatch, too. i have seen a few hallucinated phoenixes recently, and i still never see protoss ever making more than one observer. i don't know why they hate observers so damn much. i don't know why they hate most of their other units so damn much either. it's a really nasty relationship. it's like dating a girl only for her gateway units.
but yeah. i just see almost no change in the matchup. not even to pylon blocking since i have been going pool first for a very long time in zvp.
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On January 14 2011 06:55 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 06:52 happyness wrote:On January 14 2011 03:16 PulseSUI wrote:On January 14 2011 01:31 jaelerin wrote: @ all the people talking about the effects of chrono boost.
Everyone is overcomplicating the way chronoboost works. One phoenix takes 35 seconds to build normally. If you chronoboost, then it boosts build speed by 50% for 20 seconds. This means after 20 seconds, 30 seconds worth of work has been done. 5 seconds of work remain on that phoenix.
Thus 20 game seconds while chronoboosted (30 seconds worth of work) + 5 game seconds normal time (5 seconds worth of work) is how long it takes to build a phoenix.
20 + 5 = 25 seconds of game time, w/ one chronoboost.
Chronoboost saves 10 seconds of build time per use. this is actualy wrong. a chronoboost does not double the production speed (100% -> 200%), it adds 50% to the production speed (100% -> 150%). a single chroboost only shaves of 6 seconds from a research/unit. LOL. Y'know, this has already been talked about in this thread. What people should do is actually test it for themselves. A chrono-ed pheonix(with two chronos) time is reduced from 35 sec to ~24 sec. Test it yourself. Chrono reduces the time by a third for everything. So a single chrono boost + half a chrono is roughly 10 seconds... what are you arguing?
Sigh... basic math fail multiple times. :-)
One chrono boost reduces the build time by 10 seconds. (Actually of anything but we'll use the phoenix build as an example).
Normally 1 unit of work is done per 1 second. With chronoboost, it works 50% faster, so 1.5 units of work get done in 1 second. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds. 20 seconds * 1.5 units/second = 30 units of work in 20 seconds.
You have 35 units of work that need to be done to build one phoenix. Normally this is 35 seconds. You chronoboost the instant you start building it because of your mad crazy APM. After 20 seconds, you have completed 30 units worth of work. 35 - 30 = 5 units of work remaining Back in normal mode, 5 units of work takes 5 seconds. 20 seconds (boosted) + 5 seconds (normal) = 25 seconds 30 units of work (boosted) + 5 units of work (normal) = 35 units of work
The key here is that chronoboost lasts for 20 seconds, increasing build speed by 50% during that whole 20 seconds, and that totals 30 units of work.
It does NOT do 20 units of work in 2/3'ds the time, which is where this incorrect "saving 6-7 seconds" number is coming from. Chronoboost lasts 20 seconds, not 14.3 seconds.
Thanks to all the people who can do math and are also explaining.
(LOL I don't even play protoss, but the math fail was too much) The obligatory link :-)
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On January 14 2011 07:44 Existor wrote:1) Buy overlord speed 2) Move ovies everywhere you need 3) Start generate creep 4) We got upgrade for hydra speed! I realize what you're saying and the motivation behind it, but this is fairly unreasonable. Yes, Hydras kill Pheonix. But even with creep everywhere the Pheonix's will be able to run circles around the Hydras. Moving your overlords all over the map when you see 2 SG Pheonix play is the equivalent of moving them into his base and pressing the Hold Position hotkey.
Not to mention the amount of extra APM required to do this, it's fairly time consuming for me and I average 160APM (I realize this isn't exactly high, but most players fall below this). Most likely you will be doing it all at once because until you have OL speed you don't want your OLs just floating around the map, asking to get picked off by stalker/pheonix.
EDIT: And I am not replying at all to the OP, just this post. I don't have enough experience against SG play to really formulate an opinion yet. I don't really think anyone does yet, herp derp.
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Anytime a change like this happens the biggest thing is you know you'll see a lot of it for the next 2 weeks and then things will settle, just like after the last patch mass roach was all the rage and then it settled.
So I expect at this point to see Phoenix play each game at least for a bit. I only send out 1 overlord to scout, and the rest of the OL's I've kept in base not even spreading a bit. Sucks to lose some scouting but the timing the phoenix are out isn't a time you want to be risking ol's. Next change is that I've been making 4 queens.
The problem is trying to figure out how many Phoenix they are making. You don't want to overreact, start pumping hydras and they only made 2-3 phoenix and are now tech switching to colosi. At the same time you don't want to under produce hydras and that phoenix force just keeps getting bigger and bigger and allowing for map control and drone/queen harass, or a switch to voids.
I think I'm going to try to do some ling to infestor openings.. with a quick 1/1 on the lings. Going for the hydras to stop the phoenix just seems to play into the protoss players hands way to much.
I've also found that if every toss player is going to fast expand to phoenix harass I'll just go FE, cut drone production and pump speed lings. If they want to do the cute phoenix crap I'll just overrun with tons of lings, seems to have been working well.
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I don't think its a huge change other than if the zerg decides to go muta, P will now have a much easier time dealing with it. In the overwhelming majority of cases you are going to open with voids anyways if you go stargate.
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On January 14 2011 07:38 Fizbin wrote:speed ling, fast hydra with overlord creep spread with a couple spine crawlers and ur golden vs fast expand stargate. games over. hydras own gateway units. hydras own phoenix. seems to me pretty easy to deal with. that and get 1 or 2 extra queens. ppl just use roaches too much. i hate roaches garbage units. never have liked em. ling hydra is just so much better vs toss early-mid game. easy peasy lemon squeezy. edit: LOL awesome picture
Yeah and then you are trying to kill cannons/stalker/senry/void, which with good ff's is a pretty even battle, before the 2 colossi that are que'd up and building pop out and you get completely shit on. Yes hydra/ling will poop on phoenix, but 9/10 you will see 2 voids and a phoenix > expand.
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It is not just Phoenix. As has been noted, pylon block is still viable via canceling the 3rd pylon and replacing it with a cannon. I also just saw new 4-gate build being discussed in PlayXP. Thanks to the Hallucination buff, it's now possible to have both warp gate upgrade and hallucination upgrade complete around 6:10~6:20, and sentry mana 100 shortly after. It's nearly impossible for zerg to have detection at this early so the rush seems ridiculously strong. This applies to PvP as well. (Duh)
I'm a P/Z player (originally P, recently been trying to learn Z more) but for now I am playing Z only in custom games with friends.
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On January 13 2011 17:57 Hobokinz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 17:04 AzureD wrote: Hey guys has anyone tried Nydus + Hydra play? The Nydus removes the primary weakness of the Hydra so you can get close to their base right away. If they went for Phoenix right away then they will be low on other units. It costs the same as 1 Zealot + 1 Sentry.
Can the Protoss really survive a Nydus + Hydra/Roach counter attack if they opened Stargate? A Nydus is really weak when building and even workers can take it out before it finishes. If Toss has Map control with Phoenix it'll be really hard to use an Ovi to make a Nydus in their base, and trying to use another unit to spot for the place you want to nydus will probably be easily found by the toss. Also because Phoenix are used to harass the zerg I doubt they would miss you building the Nydus network.
I am not talking about Nydus in their base but Nydus near their base. Just putting it somewhere near their entrance would be good enough. It also gives you a way to retreat without losing all your Hydra.
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I try to end the game at around 8 mins now because of that dreadful ball of voids/couple of phoenix and the collosus(if any) if he skipped stalkers/sentry/gas heavy units. Roach/slings just swarming his base. Its abit of an All-in but if i can stop him from making heavy colo/voids, then I'll be ahead.
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On January 13 2011 07:35 GrazerRinge wrote: because phoenix didnt got any cheaper, it will change only some details but not much. Making stargate and quite amount of phoenixes is huge resource commitment and that means that there is no possibility that toss can get any huge advantage of that patch.
I consider it useful only as helping toss to respond quicker to mass muta build. Exactly. I had someone go heavily into phoenixes, so I just killed his base with roaches. Just, he lifted a roach here or there, but he just couldn't keep up. Since he couldn't kill my buildings, I just hid my overlords at a ninja expo while I distracted him by killing his base, then got hydras out. GG. They will remain supplemental units.
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um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
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On January 13 2011 07:13 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 07:11 regulator_mk wrote:On January 13 2011 07:06 sob3k wrote:On January 13 2011 07:02 Skyro wrote: Pretty sure phoenix build time is 25 secs w/ 1 CB now, since CB shaves off 10 seconds of build time if you let it run for its full duration. 6.7 according to liquipedia Yeah, liquipedia is wrong. Chronoboost lets the structure do 30 seconds of work in 20 seconds (50% increase). So it shaves off 10 seconds. Chronoboost only lasts 20 seconds Yes. and in those 20 seconds, you do 30 seconds of production. 25 sec / phoenix is scary indeed.
On January 14 2011 07:38 Severedevil wrote: Chronoboost isn't voodoo. I'm a little disturbed that not all Protoss players know this.
Because people stop using chronoboost after finishing warpgate research.
What about Speedlings into hydras? I haven't messed around with this MU much (random/protoss, and I've personally been making people miserable as they go blindly hydra and I play the same way as I did pre-patch.) Hydras are larva-efficient and lings for the mineral dump, and you're solid against gateway units and air stuff, and don't have to totally give up map control w/ lings. Is he really going to lift individual lings all day long? If he is, he's wasting a lot of phoenix energy.
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I guess i'm a bit surprised (read skeptical) that the timings are such that a 10 second change to build time, and a 25min/25gas reduction in cost being construed as a major change to the ZvP matchup. What is possible post patch is only slightly better than what was entirely possible pre-patch. Only now more protosses are trying it because the patch made them curious.
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On January 13 2011 07:15 DESOUL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 06:43 dshsdhk wrote: nice that Blizzard just made MUTASLISK totally useless on this matchup, could even remove this unit @ zvp rofl.
User was warned for this post Only difference is that Phoenixes won't win you the game and they can't attack ground, plus they are freakin more expensive then mutalisks, so i don't see how going mass phoenix will stop the Zergs freaking hundred lings chewing on your entrance.
this is so true. phoenix can do alot but they cant lift all your lings and if they tried i would laugh cuz they are 25 min a piece lol whenever i see phoenix opening i get spores and hydras while massing lings and banelings. banelings wreck zealot sentry and open holes while lings just chew everything else to pieces.
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On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote: um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!!
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I don't think the patch has changed anything YET. I don't see people going more phoenixes. If anything, its the VR Collo deathballs that is making things difficult ZvP but that is not due to this patch. If anything, the removal of pylon contains helps a bit.
It is possible though that knowing that phoenixes can be made so fast deter people from going muta. I find that this makes it easier for the P to just start colossus immediately because he knows he can now catch up to muta numbers easier provided the zerg doesnt have insane economy. Thus, allowing P to get their Collo critical mass faster.
In any case, even if there are drastic changes, it'll take a lot of time to fully grasp and understand the situation. ZvP was quite Z favored for a few weeks after the roach range buff in the extent that 27 Z goes into GSL and only 10 P did. Fast forward one or two months with zero patch change and the matchup has been said to be P favored
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I need to play some more ZvP against a the new stargate builds to really find out for sure, but at first glance if protoss is able to 15 nexus or forge FE, a transition to 2 stargate build (followed by 3rd and robo) is VERY, VERY strong. I played against a buddy of mine who I beat 80% of the time we play (pre patch) and he steamrolled me on one of the new GSL maps that is safe to 15 nexus on with 2 stargates. I had 10-12 hydras and roaches for his gateway units thinking no problem, only to find that about 5 voids and 5 phoenixs destroys this with minimal losses to the protoss.
All I can think i could have done is turtle around spores, which would just lead to me losing late game since he has map control w/ the voids/phoenixs and is able to expand and tech switch to his desire without me having a clue. I watched Machine's coaching on Mr. Bitter's channel and Machine mentioned he felt against stargate openings spores are now necessary.
Don't underestimate this change! Fortunately I haven't ran into any protoss' on ladder abusing this yet, only friends so tomorrow I'll try to figure out how strong this really is and the best way to play against it.
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On January 14 2011 12:25 K_osss wrote: I guess i'm a bit surprised (read skeptical) that the timings are such that a 10 second change to build time, and a 25min/25gas reduction in cost being construed as a major change to the ZvP matchup. What is possible post patch is only slightly better than what was entirely possible pre-patch. Only now more protosses are trying it because the patch made them curious.
It's stronger which turns it from a good, but risky, strategy into just a good strategy. This means Protoss now have 1 addition good strategy on top of the 6-8 strategies they already had. This makes it much harder to make the guess that you have to make in ZvP to win. Zerg are already stretched very very thin when they try to execute 'safe' openings.
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chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it
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On January 14 2011 12:32 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote: um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers. yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!! Erm... for Mutas to "not hit phoenixes evarlolroffle", you need flawless micro, and with that flawless micro if you can even spare 10 apm to the rest of your macro I'd be astounded. While you're busy trying to micro around my mutas my slings and such will just rofflestomp your base.
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On January 14 2011 13:38 rawk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 12:32 charlie420247 wrote:On January 14 2011 12:08 Tandinel wrote: um Mutalisks are still viable in PvZ simply because even though Pheonixs had thier build time reduced...Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers. yes this is true but doesnt change the fact that mutalisks cant hit phoenixes!!!!! Erm... for Mutas to "not hit phoenixes evarlolroffle", you need flawless micro, and with that flawless micro if you can even spare 10 apm to the rest of your macro I'd be astounded. While you're busy trying to micro around my mutas my slings and such will just rofflestomp your base.
Agree 100%, if Z is pulling the basic baiting micro against phoenix, it takes amazing (read: impossible) micro to "never get hit" by mutas turning around when its exchanges between large numbers of units, and one micro slip up and all the phoenixes are gone (I am of course assuming here muta will outnumber phoenix substantially, please don't bust my balls here). I have watched about 20 master league PvZs so far (for whatever thats worth), and every game with 2stargate vs mutas midgame+ the same thing happens. Mutas get repelled very well first harass encounter, maybe even losing a muta or two, phoenix get more greedy and actually want to take down the rapidly increasing muta numbers and both sides trade some units (obviously any unit loss is substantially more damning to P than Z), eventually, phoenixes give chase and P screens away/P is slow/etc, he loses his entire force. The extra queens everyone seems to be building for early AA also really seem to ameliorate any damage mutas are taking through transfuse as well, although I don't know if that kind of play will keep happening once ppl get acclimated to this patch.
After midgame, phoenix seem almost more of a liability than an advantage in the hands of a non-professional player, as everyone seems to forget their newfound lack of sentries and they all seem to overestimation how successful A-->A phoenix really are when armies clash.
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I fail to see how micro'ing pheonixes somehow takes some unobtainable micro yet the zerg player has all the time and APM in the world to beat the pheonix. Stargate tech comes faster than a typical 2 hatch mutalisk build, so it will take a while before zerg has substantially more mutas than you do pheonix. Protoss opens SG, scouts a spire going down and throws up another SG. Chronos out a bunch of pheonix while he gets some free Queen/drone/OL kills.
Yes, if the zerg somehow gets 20 mutas to your 8 pheonix you will probably get fucked. But that scenario is unlikely to occur and the more importantly what the hell was protoss doing up until then?
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Yes, if the zerg somehow gets 20 mutas to your 8 pheonix you will probably get fucked. But that scenario is unlikely to occur and the more importantly what the hell was protoss doing up until then?
Except for some few who can actually micro Phoenixes well against Mutas 
And for the latter, hopefully expanding or preparing a huge zealot-based ground army.
Anyone tried to do a 3 pylon 1 canon ramp block? haha sounds fun, haven't been able to play much yet though since patch =/
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On January 14 2011 06:08 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:12 arnold(soTa) wrote:On January 14 2011 05:01 PiLoKo wrote:On January 14 2011 04:50 bramapanzer wrote: I've seen mentioned several times in this thread that Corrupters are hard counters for Phoenix. UM no.... I have never actually killed a phoenix with a corrupter when playing a toss, and I'm freaking silver league. Hell, I can rarely kill a phoenix with mass Mutas, they are just WAAAAAY to fast.
A unit cannot be considered a "hard counter" to another unit if the other unit can just kite it across the map without being hit.
From my POV, the best bet when faced with 4-10 phoenix is just to give up map control and tech switch to roach/hydra and try to push before they have Col/Storm ready You could also kill them all with help of an Infestor. you cant kite corrupters with phoenixes, its not doable. Yes phoenixes are way faster than corrupters. but corrupters are practiclly imune to phoenixfire with their armor armored-type and very high hp. Look at the way julyzerg dealt with the phoenxiopening was very intressting, he opened up with a very quick spire and went corrupters and then made the switch to hydras when collosus was less than desireable because of all the corrupters with upgrades already out on the field. in short, corrupters may not be a hard counter (retarded term btw) but its a very good response to phoenixes _if_ you manage to get that spire up before he can wreck to much havoc in your base... It definitely is possible to kite corrupters with phoenixes (phoenixi? whats the plural form of phoenix...) Phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, corrupters need to stop to shoot, although they do have longer range. But since the phoenix is faster and can shoot while moving, it can kite the corrupters across the map. The corrupters don't HAVE to follow, but they won't get any kills either, so I don't see how corrupters are a good solution to phoenixes EDIT: I'm trying to get into your head here so I may be on the wrong track, but are you thinking of using a cpl corrupters are each expo and using them as mobile spore crawlers? I assumed you wanted to kill the phoenixs, not just stop harassment, which corrupters would do.
no its not possible to effectively kite corrupters with phoenix. Only in the same way its possible to kite roaches with 1 hellion, it will litterly take 9 years to make any damage.
phoenix have 4 range, corrupters have 6 range, also phoenix do two low damage attacks (2 x 5 damage +5 to light) and corrupter has 2 armor with 200 HP. you are sorta right about what I mean with "mobile spore crawlers" because they are so slow you have to move them to intercept and corrupt and target fire WITH supporting queenfire. but the main reason u go the corrupters in that scenario is that it discourages collosi/voidrays build which is practiclly impossible to beat once its assembled.
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I think I'm either going to be making a lot of queens, or skipping queens entirely until late game and getting just extra hatcheries.
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On January 13 2011 16:38 Ecnerwal wrote: hmmm the changes i've been seeing are that the overlords i spread for map vision get shut down pretty early and i cannot spread overlords anymore.
Also i think nix/dt openings are quite good when a toss FEs and when unscouted i think could be game ending.
But i guess us zergs have to figure out a timing when toss is weak if they do decide to open stargate
Phoenix/DT could be the new Corsair/DT, especially now since you don't have to snipe all overlords, just overseers, which are expensive!
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theory craft at his best in this thread.
Pure phoenix aren't any more viable than they were before. It helps against certain timing pushes from T for instance (banshee / raven / marine / tank etc.) or against mutas. But it seriously isn't a more save build than before, cause you can just roach push him or take easy a 3rd and response with hydras und outmacro him hard.
Those 10s just made them a faster response unit, but changed seriously nothing in the viability.
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I have been using 2 gateways 1 stargate against Zerg and I really like it. Please take everything I say with a grain of salt as I am in Plat. Anyway I do two variations one with phoenix and void rays and the other with just phoenix. I think these build really punishes Zergs who do not get enough queens as obviously phoenix can lift them while the void ray kills them. When I go all phoenix, I like to leave with about 4 of them and snipe queens and drones followed by scouting overlords.
I am not entirely sure which is stronger but the 4 phoenix are much more likely to make it out alive. I do not view either as all in or game winning moves my main intention is to harass them and force them to go to hydra and spore crawlers and deny overlord scouting. Obviously I then expand with collosi. Anyway I am sure much better players have better information to donate but that is my two cents.
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On January 14 2011 16:35 Elefanto wrote: theory craft at his best in this thread.
Pure phoenix aren't any more viable than they were before. It helps against certain timing pushes from T for instance (banshee / raven / marine / tank etc.) or against mutas. But it seriously isn't a more save build than before, cause you can just roach push him or take easy a 3rd and response with hydras und outmacro him hard.
Those 10s just made them a faster response unit, but changed seriously nothing in the viability.
you seriously underestimate what small changes can do to actual game play.
both voidrays and phoenix got buffed, making the entire techtree better is huge.
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On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote: chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it
No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths.
10 seconds is correct like many people said already.
If you did your example correction
the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve.
So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3)
35/3.5 = 10
So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong.
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To be honest, I think the change made players more aware of Phoenixes and their potential uses than anything else.
At first, people tried Phoenix play and it kinda worked. Sorta. But they didn't stick with it, instead opting for Robo-based play. So the possibilities of Phoenix-based play languished.
Now however, since Phoenixes got a buff, however slight, people are willing to have another go at them. And are in some cases finding success. Not so much because of the buff, but because they tried.
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On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote: chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it Why so complicated? (and it's wrong anyways). Just face it: Every chronoboost takes of 10 seconds of build time as long as it is not wasted on a non-producing building. Test it yourself.
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i have been trying and tweeking zvp phinox (i spell it like this on purpose) builds before the patch, and always came to the conclusion they were never viable really.
I logged in the morning of the patch and almost had to change my pants when i realized the buildtime change. I instantly went into build order mode and started trying some stuff out. Here's what I came up with.
2Gate stargate is not very viable, as roaches will decimate, basically with any early phinox play you HAVE to have immortal. 111 Build is very nice, i've tested it against about 6 different strats twice each. It works very well in zvp in particular it obviously holds roaches well, and with one sentry and proper building placement you can defend lings rather easily.
The key to using phinox in the new patch are immortals. use the early obs to determine exactly how many immortals you need. Pretty much any early push should get chopped with a FF and decimated by your army.
its amazing how many people send ovies to corners of the maps. I can assure you that won't be happening anymore vs toss. This patch is going to dramatically lower vision for Zerg. Also, in a Gate,Star,Facility order, getting 3/4 phinox out early is very very very strong against Z, as at this point they will have at most 2 queens, which even then they usually dont have. Unless they spore up it can be very deadly.
It's a whole different game when you scratch the typical 4gate style, and you have to micro phinox's along with your core units. The other strong point about them, is the instant counter (usually on minerals) if you can hold their initial push.
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On January 14 2011 17:27 iwannabelikeday wrote: 2Gate stargate is not very viable, as roaches will decimate, basically with any early phinox play you HAVE to have immortal. Build a Void Ray. They compare favorably to Immortals in most circumstances, particularly if you're playing air-heavy and therefore want the +1 Air Weapons upgrade.
Stargate for Phoenix alone, or Void Rays alone, is a mediocre structure. It's the potential use of both that makes Stargate valuable.
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Stargate for Phoenix alone, or Void Rays alone, is a mediocre structure. It's the potential use of both that makes Stargate valuable.
well said, many people do not understand this
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I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
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On January 14 2011 16:47 kinetic_skink wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote: chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths. 10 seconds is correct like many people said already. If you did your example correction the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve. So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3) 35/3.5 = 10 So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong.
well, his calculation is not plain wrong, he just didnt account for the duration of a CB. A CB shaves off 1/2x building time. Insert CB-Duration (20 secs) and voila, 10 secs reduction...
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as a 2500 master leaguer i love tosses going air in the opening.. EG.Machine's build ownz them so much
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Well most probably more Queens + faster Hydras will be required. Since I am really not a good player it will be somewhat harder to deal/prevent harass. Ovy sniping will prevent them of spreading which will be really annoying even with the speed upgrade for them. Will see I still see 4gate most of the time anyway so I am not that worried.
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On January 14 2011 20:18 eksert wrote:as a 2500 master leaguer i love tosses going air in the opening.. EG.Machine's build ownz them so much  What is this kind of build can you explain plz?
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To be honest it's not bugging me at all right now. There's a lot of Zerg QQ around, but I find that in the lower leagues a lot of Protosses are committing to too many phoenixes at the moment. Just because they come out faster, doesn't mean they don't still cost a lot.. Just my input, I guess.
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imo it's still quite balanced and i didnt really change my ZvP BOs. If the opponent goes mass Phoenix for early/midgame harrass I mass hydras and queens for a counter attack (9/10 sucessful yet)
2,4k diamond btw
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On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote: I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes.
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On January 14 2011 20:47 mind1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote: I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes.
Show me a replay of a toss getting 4 phoenix with 3 gates, then throwing down a robo, then an expansion, and then having colossus out before you can counter attack with hydras.
oh wait, you can't, because that's impossible
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On January 14 2011 20:52 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 20:47 mind1337 wrote:On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote: I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
That's exactly how i feel, the 1 stargate 4 phoenix into robo is REALLY effective vs Zerg, basically if the zerg doesn't get 4 queens the game is over when the 4 phoenixes arrive in the zerg base. If you get super fast hydras to counter that, then the protoss just has to push with his units produced from the 3 gates and he wins the game since you teched too fast to defend against the phoenixes. Show me a replay of a toss getting 4 phoenix with 3 gates, then throwing down a robo, then an expansion, and then having colossus out before you can counter attack with hydras. oh wait, you can't, because that's impossible
I never said the toss gets 3gates, He goes 1/1/1, He will only have a zealot + stalker until his 4 phoenix is out. Zealot holds ramp and stalkers tries to deny scouting. Then he gets robo when 4 phoenix is done, and he can get some more ground units and a Expo. Those 4 phoenix will do ALOT of damage to zerg and you will have a hard time punishing him for it. Unless you for some reason went mass lings or very early roach, both that arent that viable normal openings at higher level imo.
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.Zerg can still produce mutalisks fast and in multiple numbers.
The only reason why u could go Mutalisk against Phoenix and fight even, was because u could build an overwhelming force faster, but now there are 4 Phoenix after 2CB Starports nearly at the same time build as the first batch of mutas of 4-6... Also Phoenix come now in bigger Nr earlier than mutas. Catching up from behind in muta nr. is hard imo, I dont think its effective. Many people seem to think that Z units dont cost gas.... produce muta fast and in multiple nr... if u have good macro ure always at around 0 gas... and produce your mutas just like P produce Phoenix, only slower
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Too early to tell. I would imagine protoss can be more dangerous with a phoenix opening, but I would wait for a week or two before I conclude anything.
Other than that I think everything is same no?
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Other than that I think everything is same no?
I agree. But I like that the wall off is kinda gone now.
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I was often complaining pre patch that I could never hold a 3rd vs zerg, so I often just tried to delay zergs natural, 4gate and hope it worked out. Which it often did and still does. The patch has opened up a lot of doors for me to play and win macro games vs zerg. While I haven't been using phoenix as much simply because they just are not a unit I seem to utilize effectively (except for early overlord harassment and scouting), having the cheeper obs and faster hallucinate have definitely allowed me to keep a better eye on the zerg and see when they are being greedy or preparing a push. This knowledge has allowed me to take and hold 3rds and I am often getting into split map, all out macro wars with zerg. That include tech switches, by me and my opponent, after almost every major engagement. It's a welcomed change for me. Not just because of being able to win macro games but because I'm not so tempted to 4 gate ever game. I feel like the matchup has become fun and interesting. I was so lost after the previous patch and roach buff. On maps like scrap station which I used to absolutely dread, I feel I can battle into the late game and not be hopelessly behind.
It's also very nice to be able to get phoenix out to deal with the muta threat and having the scouting to see it coming. While some zergs are obviously unhappy with this. I always got picked apart by muta harass after taking 3rd because my main ramp was usually semi-walled to prevent early ling harassment. Which delayed my stalkers from responding to the threat and being able to get from my main to my natural and 3rd. Blink's not 100% effective with handling this because smart zergs would fake one direction and cause you to blink the wrong way, costing me many probes. With zerg being able to make 10 muta's at the same time, and perform very fast tech and composition switches. I would think they wouldn't be so upset by a 10 second reduction in 1 units build time.
One final thought to all the zergs out there, USE CONTAMINATE. It's so good! You get scouting info and can delay colossus production and starport production. This can cripple toss's compositions and break timing attack windows. It's so underused, and so good. You can really punish players for bad building placement. Colossus and voids take a long time to produce, make it even longer.
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On January 14 2011 16:47 kinetic_skink wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote: chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths. 10 seconds is correct like many people said already. If you did your example correction the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve. So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3) 35/3.5 = 10 So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong.
No, YOU'RE wrong (or rather, you're arguing the wrong point). Here, let me put, in bold, the claim that he's making.
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
followed by
each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a (phoenix) gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it (constantly)
You see, his point isn't that one chrono boost saves 11.66 seconds. His point is that if you constantly chrono boost a Phoenix, you ACTUALLY save 11.66 seconds (which is accurate and true). CB once, save 10 seconds, CB the final 5 seconds of build time, and you save 1.66 seconds. If you constantly CB a stargate while building phoenix, you build each phoenix in 23.34 seconds. If you build 3 Phoenix at 23.34 seconds, you build them in 70.02 seconds.
The build time of a Phoenix is originally 35 seconds. MEANING, you can build 3 phoenix in the same amount of time it takes to build 2. WHY? Because when you increase the production speed of a building by 50%, that's the same as saying that the building produces at 1.5x the production rate. And the last time I checked my math skills, 1.5 x 2 = 3.
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On January 14 2011 20:15 Regentropfen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 16:47 kinetic_skink wrote:On January 14 2011 13:21 roymarthyup wrote: chronoboost increases the building power of a building by 50% for its duration
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
what that means is you can build 3 pheonix in the time it takes to build 2 pheonix assuming the stargate is constantly chrono boosted
3 pheonix is 105 seconds
2 pheonix builds in 70 seconds
so with constant chronoboost you can make 3 pheonix in 70 seconds, giving each one a buildtime of 23.333 seconds . so 35 seconds became 23.333 seconds. This means using chronoboost on a pheonix DOES NOT shave 10 seconds off its building time, in reality a fully chronoboosted pheonix gets 11.666 seconds shaved off its building time
this means in if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds, it shaved off 35 seconds of building time
do different units cause different results. lets compare
1 carrier builds in 120 seconds. so with chronoboost you can make 3 carriers in 240 seconds. this means a carrier is a 80 second buildtime with constant chronoboost. this means a fully chronoboosted carrier gets 40 seconds shaved off its building time
that means when you keep a building chronoboosted for 240 seconds for carriers, it shaved off 40x3=120 seconds of building time
so it seems chronoboost gives a specific percentage of buildtime being shaved off for how long a building is chronoboosted. If a building is chronoboosted for X seconds it shaves off 1/2x building time. So that means if you keep a building chronoboosted for 70 seconds it shaved off 35, or if you keep it chronoboosted for 240 seconds it shaved off 120
but each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it No - You're wrong. How can so many people here be so bad at maths. 10 seconds is correct like many people said already. If you did your example correction the 70 chonoboosted seconds would take 3.5 chronoboosts to achieve. So to get the 35 seconds reducuction you mention takes 3.5 chronoboosts (Not 3) 35/3.5 = 10 So a single chronoboost reduces build times by 10 seconds (As have been repeated over and over). Your calculation was just wrong. well, his calculation is not plain wrong, he just didnt account for the duration of a CB. A CB shaves off 1/2x building time. Insert CB-Duration (20 secs) and voila, 10 secs reduction...
You kinda got it. What CB does is build 1.5 times faster. That's not the same as saying it shaves off 1/2 the building time. It actually shaves 1/3 off the building time. If your claim were true, it would be possible to creat 4 phoenix in the time it takes to make 2, but in reality, it's only possible to make 3 phoenix in the time it takes to make 2. 6 in the time to 4, 9 in time to make 6, and so on.
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lol - not a lot of future engineers in this thread and a few people that need to go back to school and take some pre-calc classes.
With that said, I've been working on a new build for ZvP in which I go back to 14 hatch/14 pool(been 14 pool, 16 hatch) with less fear of cannons at the choke. I've been getting a quick gas after that and instantly getting lair going on my main as soon as possible, and producing my 2 queens from the expansion.
Even with the delayed queens I make back up the larva because the early lair lets me spread some early creep between bases so I save that early creep tumor and been injecting instead(spreading creep w/ a 3rd queen).
At that point, with the fast lair been scouting with some lings or an OL. If it looks fast phoenix/stargate I throw the spire down and go corrupter/speed ling and get +1 on the lings. If it looks like gateways, throw the hydra den down. Very ling heavy either way.
Have to get a pretty early 2nd gas as well to support the tier 2 gas needs.
I'll report back, so far getting some timings down but it seems like it has potential.
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I play random (lower master league), and I have tried using phoenix openings against zerg... errrr... I've been largely ineffective. I dunno, maybe I just suck.
When I play zvp, I rarely see anyone else use phoenix... I dunno why. I'm not much of a muta user so maybe that's why (I prefer mass roach/hydra with good creep spread and corruptors if I have to).
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Also, totally anecdotal and more of a question, but I was so used to see superearly 1/2 zealot 1 stalker pressure before the patch came out, and now it seems every game where they go for 4 fast phoenix I don't see that early stalker. I'm not a toss but does that 50 gas really make such a difference (or is it saved chronos for your 4 fast phoenix?)? Cause that early harass was powerful and the fact that its missing now seems to be very telling to me...
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On January 14 2011 21:16 ch4ppi wrote: Many people seem to think that Z units dont cost gas.... produce muta fast and in multiple nr... if u have good macro ure always at around 0 gas... and produce your mutas just like P produce Phoenix, only slower
Don't zergs usually stockpile gas for exactly this reason? Often in ZvPs I'm amazed at how my opponent can build up a critical mass of mutas and dominate the air even when I have 4-6 phoenix at the start of the dogfights. If he's going muta-ling, every hundred gas can become a muta, no? (As far as gas spent on units go, I mean. Obviously upgrades and tech cost gas too.)
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On January 14 2011 19:56 Rizell wrote: I actually think this change made a huge effect. A toss that goes a 1/1/1 build (gate,cyber,stargate) and waits and chronoes out 4 phoenix (critical number to kill a queen in 1 gravitation beam) will is so much deadlier.
This usually attacks the zerg around the time his lair just finished. Its hard to scout since its easy to hide 1 stargate and those 4 phoenix are done sligthly after the 6min mark.. and even if u manage to scout it and you have 3 queens and a evo chamber almost finished. IT WILL do alot of damage to the zerg. Before 1.2 those 4 phoenix would come 40 seconds later.. enough time for you to have a hydra den up.
Now the amount of damage those 4 phoenix will do allows the toss to immidiatly put down a robo and expand, that robo even allowes him to have 1-2 collosi out in time for your hydra counter ( was a good followup before).
I dont know what to do to counter this shit, NO it dosent kill me, but it lets the protoss enter the midgame with mapcontrol, better eco, and better tech. A huge advantage. Sure there are blind counters to this, by going early pressure or blind evo chamber.. but those things have no room in a normal build at higher level play.
1 gate 1 stargate +1 air weapons was my go-to PvZ build, although I'm not active on the ladder anymore. I would pump a small ground force (mostly Zealots) and use it to support my air force, if the Zerg didn't have enough Zerglings to force me to defend with them instead, and pump Phoenix or Phoenix with a Void Ray.
I believe that Zerg players should build many Queens, and place one Spore Crawler beneath each hatchery, where the units spawn (NOT in the mineral line) and possibly an additional Crawler covering the walking space between the main and natural. Spore Crawlers are cheap, do good damage at good range, cannot be lifted, and defeat Void Rays one-on-one. You'll note the mineral line is left somewhat vulnerable; that's fine. If Protoss wants to lift your drones, and he has enough air units to overpower your Queens... let him lift your drones. At 50 mana for a 50 mineral unit, he's not really winning out.
Hydralisks are tempting because they kill Phoenix so quickly, and if you get a proper ball you can walk up to Protoss's base and JUST FUCKING KILL HIM. However, they're expensive and extremely vulnerable to Phoenix sniping. If you build them before you have secured your airspace with Queen or Queen/Spore, they will be lifted as they pop and you will lose.
I'm also pretty sure it's worthwhile for Zerg to maintain a dozen or so Speedlings, to threaten Protoss and keep him from expanding or ground-attacking you without first committing to a significant ground force.
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Seems to me a lot of people in this thread are missing the point of Phoenix. Sure, you can go kill some chobo toss who has no idea what he's doing. But in the hands of a skilled player, Phoenix are an insane and viable harass option.
FFE into Two Star is probably the best build at the moment. My own variation includes two Gates before Gases/Core but after Nexus/1 Cannon to add a pressure option to your FE build as well as some additional safety from Ling/Baneling all ins. A Zerg seeing two gateways producing at your nat is more than likely to build more Zerglings/Spines than needed, and perhaps force him to waste resources on Roach Warren/Roaches. Won't be too useful when you start the Stargate pump, though. 
This build is an easy transition to Colossus/Void Ray, which is by far the best unit composition in PvZ at the moment. It's simply disgusting how easy it is to take wins off Z.
Massive Corruptor balls are easily dealt with when you're upgrading double upgrades at home and as you gain more bases (gas), you add plenty of Stalkers to aid against it anyways.
Also, slow pushing with Cannons greatly helps this "fragile" unit composition, as Corruptors will have a hard time picking your stuff off, and they have natural synergy with Cannons.
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Played now 1 game where the zerg goes spire and i throw down a stargate imidiatly and my phönixproduction till the mutas arrived where that good i could defend with some micro so i guess thats what bliz want. As a toss u can defend now vs mutas if u scout them early enough without throwing down 2 gates!
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i've noticed in the master league now that alot of protoss are coming at me (zerg) with 2 phoenix and 1 void ray really early, this means they pick of my queen real fast and then the voidray finishes my natural expansion, it's been quite annoying.
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On January 15 2011 08:18 Tump wrote:FFE into Two Star is probably the best build at the moment. My own variation includes two Gates before Gases/Core but after Nexus/1 Cannon to add a pressure option to your FE build as well as some additional safety from Ling/Baneling all ins. A Zerg seeing two gateways producing at your nat is more than likely to build more Zerglings/Spines than needed, and perhaps force him to waste resources on Roach Warren/Roaches. Won't be too useful when you start the Stargate pump, though.  The best part about supporting a Stargate with a gateway (or two Stargates with two Gateways) is that if Zerg doesn't match your mineral-dump ground force, you can just send it to support your air, or to secure an expansion while you harass. It doesn't cost the Protoss much, because with most of his gas going to air he couldn't spend those minerals on much besides Gateway units (can't expand without a ground force) but if Zerg do, their economy/anti-air will be weaker.
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No, YOU'RE wrong (or rather, you're arguing the wrong point). Here, let me put, in bold, the claim that he's making.
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
followed by
each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a (phoenix) gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it (constantly)
You see, his point isn't that one chrono boost saves 11.66 seconds. His point is that if you constantly chrono boost a Phoenix, you ACTUALLY save 11.66 seconds (which is accurate and true). CB once, save 10 seconds, CB the final 5 seconds of build time, and you save 1.66 seconds. If you constantly CB a stargate while building phoenix, you build each phoenix in 23.34 seconds. If you build 3 Phoenix at 23.34 seconds, you build them in 70.02 seconds.
The build time of a Phoenix is originally 35 seconds. MEANING, you can build 3 phoenix in the same amount of time it takes to build 2. WHY? Because when you increase the production speed of a building by 50%, that's the same as saying that the building produces at 1.5x the production rate. And the last time I checked my math skills, 1.5 x 2 = 3.
Thanks for replying, I was about to rage at the people who failed their maths and claiming he should "test it himself". Rofl, isn't that what the math is for?
Anyways I've been using 2 stargate strategies even before 1.2, FFE is risky of course but 2 SG is a good follow up. I think in the end I won more games than I lost (probably just because the level I'm playing at, although relatively high diamond people still get lazy sometimes and don't scout properly). And then switch to colossi while he gets hydras, then gg 
in PvZ i mean
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On January 14 2011 00:41 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 00:31 wherebugsgo wrote:On January 13 2011 08:36 TheCookieMonster wrote: a quickly rushed phoenix is gonna destroy 50% of zerg scouting Pre-Lair. Now all we have is the ling poke at the ramp, phoenix mass can pick off any nearby ovvies that are being sacced pre-lair speed upgrade.... not to mention there goes any chance of muta map control. One balancing idea would be to make mutas non-light or slightly less expensive (because if phoenixes can be cheap, why cant mutas?) WTF? Since when has 150/100 been cheap in comparison to 100/100? Also, the fact that your opponent has revealed phoenixes is enough for a Zerg to commit to roach+hydra and get Corruptors. I guarantee you that a roach+hydra timing attack will kill the Protoss because the tech switch to colossus/HT leaves a huge timing window until storm/thermal lance is/are researched. Personally I think we're gonna see a lot more burrowed roach play. Last patch the only solution to muta+ling was a 6 gate timing attack (which only sometimes works, as exemplified by tester) or the 2 star FE build. Now, muta+ling is still viable but it doesn't completely kill most toss builds. However, I think roach-based builds will just become more popular. It's essentially what happened with PvT: In PvT nowadays, we see marauder+Viking+ghost. The same composition exists for Zerg: just replace the Marauder with the roach, the Viking with the corruptor, and the ghost with the infestor. Zerg players have an advantage in T3 units and the ball itself by teching to ultras and broodlords, but Terrans have harassment capability in blue flame and banshees. Both compositions work because the backbone of the strategy (roaches or Marauders) is cost efficient against all gateway units. For T, ghosts must combat the HTs, but Zerg players can simply burrow to avoid storm. The scary part is that, IMO, toss players have no good way of responding to Zerg when they execute this composition correctly. Use observers, seriously? Burrowing roaches against storm only works if the protoss doesnt have observers and collosi. The only benefit of burrow moving roaches versus storm is when a protoss rushed for HT instead of collosi. If a roach moves slower and has no capability to attack, what makes you think that protoss has no answer to a slighly less immobile, retreating, not attacking unit? Protoss has compositions that work against all zerg units, likewise, zerg has strong compositions versus the protoss, abeit being out a bit later than the protoss. Phoenixes are definitely all the rage all of a sudden, which is very annoying. I've always disliked phoenixes because they force me to make units that I'd rather forget that they ever existed. I just need to adapt to the sillyness and get some evo chamber out quicker and just sporecrawler around my entire mineral line and plant all my scouting overlords inside the ring. Although the only thing I'm looking forward is that this change might make PvP from a complete and utter 4gate million collosus matchup into something more dynamic. I honestly hate watching that match up in tournaments, as it hardly ever gets to the third base. Who am I kidding right :D?
Have you played good Zergs recently?
Burrowed roaches don't just sit there under a storm. Good Zergs will go for your observers. They'll engage only when they know they can do damage to your army. They'll snipe what they can and then leave, to heal the damage they've taken. They'll engage with hydras ONLY after wearing the toss down multiple times.
The thing about roaches is that no toss composition is truly cost-efficient at killing them. No, roaches can't shoot air, but void rays are very cost-inefficient against roach+hydra. Colossi are murdered by corruptors, and are easily avoided by running away and burrow-healing.
As for storm, you CAN burrow through a storm, it's storm+colossi that actually kills a lot of roaches. However, it's pretty easy to run away, too, you just have to avoid the force fields. If you engage, force a couple storms, run away, and re-engage, you'll whittle down templar energy. Then you can engage again when the conditions are favorable to you.
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On January 15 2011 10:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +No, YOU'RE wrong (or rather, you're arguing the wrong point). Here, let me put, in bold, the claim that he's making.
what this means is if a building is CONSTANTLY CHRONOBOOSTED it can produce 1.5 of a unit in its buildtime instead of 1
followed by
each chronoboosted unit is fully chronoboosted gets more or less time shaved off to build depending on its buildtime. a (phoenix) gets 11.666 seconds of its buildtime shaved off if you chronoboost it (constantly)
You see, his point isn't that one chrono boost saves 11.66 seconds. His point is that if you constantly chrono boost a Phoenix, you ACTUALLY save 11.66 seconds (which is accurate and true). CB once, save 10 seconds, CB the final 5 seconds of build time, and you save 1.66 seconds. If you constantly CB a stargate while building phoenix, you build each phoenix in 23.34 seconds. If you build 3 Phoenix at 23.34 seconds, you build them in 70.02 seconds.
The build time of a Phoenix is originally 35 seconds. MEANING, you can build 3 phoenix in the same amount of time it takes to build 2. WHY? Because when you increase the production speed of a building by 50%, that's the same as saying that the building produces at 1.5x the production rate. And the last time I checked my math skills, 1.5 x 2 = 3. Thanks for replying, I was about to rage at the people who failed their maths and claiming he should "test it himself". Rofl, isn't that what the math is for? Anyways I've been using 2 stargate strategies even before 1.2, FFE is risky of course but 2 SG is a good follow up. I think in the end I won more games than I lost (probably just because the level I'm playing at, although relatively high diamond people still get lazy sometimes and don't scout properly). And then switch to colossi while he gets hydras, then gg  in PvZ i mean
Like shit man, it's ok to be wrong, but to claim that the guy who's RIGHT has to check their math? Give me a break.
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My only concern is that at the top levels of masters every protoss has a unique build with different timing attacks, I can count 6 different kinds of 4gate alone. Nearly every day a new build is viable for protoss and then they decided they require several buffs..?
I think Protoss can agree that their race hasn't even begun to scratch the surface as far as timings and builds are concerned, the phoenix change was uncalled for the observer change I'm 100% fine with the more scouting thats available to races the more standardized play becomes.
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153 seconds to go from Lair to having a Hydra out in the field.
75 + 65 + 65 or 205 seconds to get a Colossus out. Also think about the gas costs. Each Phoenix is 100 gas. Stargate 150 gas. Robo Facility 100 gas. Robo Support Bay 200 gas. Colossus 200 gas. Then you probably want Sentry as well as Stalkers? This is just not affordable off one base.
If he goes strait into Colossus from Stargate then you should be able to just walk up to his base with some units and kill him with Roach + Ling. A few Sentry won't save him. Colossus without ground support also die easily.
As for FFE into Stargate it depends on the map but you can often just walk up to his base and kill him with Roaches. Especially on maps like Blistering Sands and Xel Naga Caverns.
In fact I think there was a game like this in the GSL where Idra did just this.
Robo Facility and Stargate is a lot of tech and a huge money sink. The Toss will be lacking in basic units.
It all depends on how well the Phoenix do. If they fail to do any damage then the Toss player is pretty much dead. Only if the Phoenix do a lot of damage is the Toss able to get away with teching or expanding.
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I can't win anymore versus Protoss. The Phoenixes overlord/queen/drone sniping does way too much damage and then I lose to the push. It's doing my head in.
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