|
On January 07 2011 20:46 Adebisi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote:
The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible. it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
Yep, I've felt like this for a while. It's not necessarily impossible to be balanced, but you have to make a lot of concessions (like on maps) when one race's unbounded worker production is so far ahead of the others. The spawn larva mechanic means that very large maps will never be balanced.
|
Canada1637 Posts
On January 07 2011 20:47 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +I agree with this, it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around. Just reducing the maximum amout of larva per Hatchery would pretty much nerf Zerg late game a lot.
The issue isn't the late game zerg being able to remax, the issue is as the game progresses through the mid game if a map is larger than say... cross spawn metalopolis, with a rush distance like 1.5x that, its just completely hopeless to be able to keep up with the amount of drones able to be squeezed in. Protoss can keep up abit better with chronoboost and safely opening 15 nexus on a large map, but Terran MULE doesn't quite translate the same way spawn larva/chronoboost does, as well due to mechanics Terran doesn't benefit from 15 cc the way the other races do (Benefit from 15hatch/15nexus) because you actually delay your first OC so much.
|
I apologize for being cynical here, but I've come to assume that every decision made by post-2007 Blizzard is about the bottom line. That doesn't preclude Blizzard from making decisions that vastly improve the game, but it's money first. I don't understand what Blizzard has to gain monetarily by sabotaging the quality of their level design in order to appease newer players. What, do they actually think newer players will be turned off from the game if a series of wide-open maps designed for macro play turn the Silver League into "Battlecruiser wars"? And if the company is really that concerned that integrating custom maps into the ladder pool is going to harm the game, then why in God's name did they build the game around the "chokepoint -> natural expansion" model that the most dedicated members of the community decided was the proper way to play Starcraft? I can give you the answer: Blizzard didn't think the game could be successful without the long-term Brood War audience accepting the game. So why the hell is the company holding back on this issue?
|
Blizzard don't know how to make maps and I said it countless times on this forum
Another aspect we can consider is that you can't talk race imbalances unless you have a fairly good map.
In SC:BW, for example, if you had maps with no chokes Zerg would be overpowered ..... and so on.
Blizzard should admit that they suck at creating maps.
Blizzard should hire/collaborate with people who helped this game grow by creating competitive maps(i keep thinking of iCCup members here).
After constantly talking with the community, then you get a sense of what a reasonable map should look like, then work on the balancing of races and units.
|
Steppes is just a joke.... there is nothing more to add.
|
i like the map pool as the maps are really different from each other, so lots of different things you can do, you will mostly never see them as most people are like "ugh hate this map -> cheese." And since this Ugh is race specific, so each race hate other maps. Almost all of the maps will revolve around one side trying to end it quick.
So the most fun matchups are either mirrors on a favored map, or maps that are not favoring both the races. As people will be more likely to play right in this case (unless they hate the match up).
And i don't think Blizzard would mind if people start their own ladder, there are enough maps and enough people as it seems. And if they would mind you won't know unless you try.
They are currently balancing the game/ working on the bnet and when you change game mechanics you don't want to change maps obviously. So guess they go after that what people cry the most for.
(I hate the ramp change by the way, you could even programm the editor to check if that starting location has a zerg and then add a non buildable but walkable doodad to that ramp, now that they fix this that way, people will never get the idea when building their own maps to add something to the ramp so that walling in is a bit more complicated and will take another building giving more attack space to early lings etc.)
|
Map pool is the reason I haven't laddered for 6 weeks. Haven't really played 1v1 customs with people either. Mostly obs these days.
Maps are going to be hard to balance because bigger sizes will always favor P and Z (warp-in mechanic instant reinforce and large distance allowing for multiple injects on the farthest position) and smaller maps will favor T in most regards and just lead to cheese and 1 base allins. Also bigger maps favor Z too much because of how fast their units are - obviously as the map size increases, the timing windows will become bigger even.
I think T needs some viable late game units - i.e. making mech viable in tvp again and making BC not a joke unit.
|
On January 07 2011 21:23 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:46 Adebisi wrote:On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote:
The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible. it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around. Yep, I've felt like this for a while. It's not necessarily impossible to be balanced, but you have to make a lot of concessions (like on maps) when one race's unbounded worker production is so far ahead of the others. The spawn larva mechanic means that very large maps will never be balanced.
I agree and I also thing Warpgate has the same kind of impact on larger maps. I would love to see these mechanics changed so things became a lot slower early on and balanced. I mean Lings are nerfed because of spawn larvae and that has had a massive impact on the whole zerg race.
|
They need to implement a system that custom melee maps can qualify for the ladder. Maybe hold a map making contest, people can try them out and vote maps in and out of the pool on a bi monthly basis.
|
here's an idea:
make better maps. see if the game is balanced.
if yes -> win
if no -> balance patch
blizzard seems to have confused the concept that if they like the game the way it is it's actually good. Im pretty sure the guys who make the mediocre video games that ridiculous Australian yatzhee laughs at think their game is good.
we're married to ladder because it's the best (right now) way we have to play against people of "equal" skill. the community is too large to just have pubs be filled with good players (yes it happens in small games) and too young to have esea or #findscrim.
a real tournament needs to use the iccup maps just so we can see what happens. just as an experiment. or maybe a weekly tournament like craftcup.
|
I agree 1000% percent with you OP. The maps now don't really suck, but a lot of them are imbalanced, getting way too old now and the game itself with no new maps is beginning to get stagnant.
Also with only 10 maps for 1v1 there isn't much choice and with the way bnet 2.0 works now its impossible for players to add new maps themselves.
Since tournament organization is crap now because there is no LAN and there are still no better ways to communicate(cough, cough, chat channels) there are no tournaments that can and willing to use different maps).
Not to mention that these new maps have to be tested to see if they are balanced!
|
On January 07 2011 22:42 thehitman wrote:
Not to mention that these new maps have to be tested to see if they are balanced!
Why?
Putting them in ladder is the test. They cannot be less balanced than steppes or jungle or delta.
Maps like Match Point have already had a ton of playtests, and others with it.
|
On January 07 2011 22:26 FeyFey wrote:
and i don't think Blizzard would mind if people start their own ladder, there are enough maps and enough people as it seems. And if they would mind you won't know unless you try.
Of course they mind it, with stuff like the marketplace coming up they want to keep you in bnet2.
Otherwise bnet2 would be pretty pointless :p
|
There are so many problems with hosting tournaments with custom maps people dont seem to realize how hard it is.
First: In open tournaments it is downright impossible because 100 people asking how to find the map is a bitch. It can be alleviated a bit by making a better way to search for a map.
Second: Practice on those maps will be downright impossible at the moment and still hard for most after getting chat channels.
Third: Players are conservative at heart. New maps will inevitably lead to imbalance-claims which you dont really need as a host of a tournament and even though certain maps in the current mappool are imbalanced people are used to them and dont complain as much about it.
Fourth: To alleviate third point a bit you have to evaluate the maps which is timeconsuming and an extra burden. Most likely the regional block is hurting your choises.
The fact is: Untill chat channels are open its downright impossible, after that time it is timeconsuming and a nightmare because of how custom games are sorted at the moment. If they make an amazing search-method for custom games it is still stomped by regional split and a still very unintuitive mapmaker and "developmentprocess".
|
Although larger macro maps would be nicer, I'm kind of fan of maps like stepps of war because they force a totally different playstyle out of players even if it's cheesy. Although I much perfer the idea of a small map in a tournament situtation over a ladder situation as it can be the saving grace for a player about to be knocked out, where as on ladder it's a cheese fest.
|
Ladder means nothing, it is only a practice tool for tournaments and fun for casual players. This game is purely about the competition and tournys.
There are loads of good custom maps out there, and tournaments are allowed to use them - so how is it Blizzard's fault?
It is the tournament hosts that need to take the initiative and make, or deligate, custom maps to host their tournaments on.
I agree that maps can decide results at every level, however the point is these maps were a base-line to set ball rolling, and the editing tool was there for players, gamers and fans to improve and expand to suit their needs.
|
On January 07 2011 11:19 zerglingsfolife wrote:It was so sad that TSL3 did not include at least one iccup map. I thought teamliquid might set a good example.  I know that they aren't on the ladder, but you've got to start somewhere.
could not agree more.
|
Map Pool is the reason i just ordered BW (came from wc3)
And yes, TSL3 organizers are the first organizers of a tourney from which i think they really think about fairness^^
|
it took rougly 3 years for BW to be balanced, took that much time for Koreans to start making decent maps as well.
|
the best way to get customs is to have every tournament, big and small to start using custom maps in their tourneys. There needs to be a good map pool, a pool that is figured out by the top SC2 players and is recognized by other tournaments. Once this is done and chat channels are introduced, people who are interested in playing in tournaments should make games through chat that use these maps. Don't ladder, just do customs with people in chat and with practice partners, eventually we'll see good maps in SC2 again, but not through blizzard.
If Blizzcon rolls around, then go ladder for that if you think you can do it, but if even small tourneys agree with big tourneys to use the same custom maps in their pools, then we'd see everyone playing them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
