The lack of a dynamic map pool and overall poor quality of maps has killed all interest in SC2 (won't even be getting hots) for me. SC:BW always had new maps coming out because the servers and map pool in ladder was controlled by third parties. Now that the ball is in Blizzard's court like almost everything to do with starcraft 2 they have dropped it on the ground and walked away.
The lack of any change to map pool (even the new maps where not added, merely they switched in a 2v2 map to the pool, and another) makes the game boring and stagnant.
For veterans we know the hype with new maps.. outsider, destination, etc we know how the maps changed and how builds/strategies changed. Instead for SC2 with blizzard support now we get no new maps, the maps are poor, and poorly organized tournaments (blizzcon)
I understand how hard it is to make new maps blizzard, and the huge challenge it is, which is why so many people unpaid have made so many maps, and iccup even offered to work with you in any way to get their custom maps in. It's definitely a sure sign that you support ESPORTS and the SC2 community with this awesome dynamic map pool that just makes the game so good.
I hope people understand this thread is made with good intentions, aka to get blizzard to wake up from whatever stupor they are in and start not sucking. They even admit over and over how SC:BW was balanced with map design. Yet SC2 comes out and they expect kespa map makers to come in and do everything for them. It's just not possible with bnet 2.0 being such a horrible platform for 3rd party maps to fix things.
Poll: Your Thoughts on Map Pool
I hate the Map Pool (1044)
58%
I rage at the Map Pool harder than when Idra does against cheesy terrans. (336)
19%
Indifferent (218)
12%
I like the Map Pool (213)
12%
1811 total votes
Your vote: Your Thoughts on Map Pool
(Vote): I like the Map Pool (Vote): Indifferent (Vote): I hate the Map Pool (Vote): I rage at the Map Pool harder than when Idra does against cheesy terrans.
The main problem is blizzard has said "tournaments should use their own maps"
the problem with this is the diversity of tournaments, testing said maps, etc. As the freaking developer of the game and with the dictatorship you have over server/online play you should at least ATTEMPT to make new maps of a higher quality.
We all figured out most of the maps where terrible a long time ago and blizzard has had no response. Everyone I've heard talk about the subject is like "wtf is blizzard doing"
Personally, I laugh when I see steppes of war in a tournament's map pool. And then I cry on ladder because i can't thumbs down temple, steppes, delta, and jungle all at the same time. It makes Starcraft a very emotional game for me.
Map pool can definitely be better but the game is still so new that new strategies are developing even with the same maps. Eventually blizzard is going to need to accept 3rd party maps though..fan made maps have shown to have a lot of potential in bw. Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Warcraft 3 tournaments only involve blizzard maps? If they had fan made maps maybe the game would have been more successful.
I think the biggest issue with a lot of the maps now are that theyre too small and thus too succeptable to all ins, if they were all the same size as Shakuras, it would make for some longer and more interesting games IMO.
Your poll options don't leave a lot of room for middle ground, in fact I'm fairly certain you just skewed the options wildly so you'd get the most one sided reactionary response you could...
I'd say I dislike the current map pool, but still maintain a high level of interest in watching SC2
The map pool is rather terrible, but I deal. It's not killing any interest in the game, but rather it offers more enjoyment for me when I do see new maps.
I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now. As Tasteless said last night, nerds will never be happy, "Why isn't this perfect??!?!".
But I think the main problem, is the overreaction about things like these. Yeah I like iCCup maps better, new maps would be good... It's just like how there is no LAN or cross realm play, it really didn't effect many people.
So my view on this, yes, new maps would make it more interesting, however, there is still alot of diversity in builds, and different strategies... Instead of complaining about the map pool you should force yourself to do builds that don't even seem good, or go templar etc... You'll see they are relatively powerful.
If the game is boring, I believe it's more a flaw of the game itself, which I'm not saying it does, but maps don't make a difference to such an extent.
I find the maps are alright, however I wish they would rotate more often.. and by more often I mean.. AT ALL.. seriously.. Maps should be monthly or something, even if every month they added 2 and took 2 out..
xelnaga and shakuras are the only good maps in the current pool. metal is crappy in close positions, LT has that stupid ledge drop mechanics, jungle basin is imbalanced as fuck, blistering, delta and steppes are jokes anyway.
and i agree, more rotation would be nice. doesnt have to be a completely new mappool every month, but 2 new maps per month would be decent.
It seems that no matter how many threads are made on this topic, blizzard won't listen. I think i read a "i hate the map pool" thread once a week here and still no response. I agree there needs to be a change and there should definately be community involvement. A few days ago they were testing iCCup maps on the Gisado stream (GSL).. so i don't want to read to much into it but that is a positive sign..
All good things will come in time.. everyone knows the sc2 team is tiny and with the limited resources i just don't think the map pool is sitting top on their list just yet.. i guarantee this will have to change in the future for the game to remain competitive..
On January 07 2011 10:43 Coufu wrote: The poll choices are way too bipolar. I hate the map pool, but still watch SC2.
Agreed, I'm not in love with the map pool, but I still don't hate the game or anything.
The problem is, the game is being balanced around this kind of map pool(or rather, the size of the current maps). If Blizzard makes the maps same size as fx. Kulas terran will be sooo boned(toss less so). Meta shows that the clearest, I cross my fingers when I get TvZ, 66% chance I win, 33% chance I loose.
The options are WAY to harsh and over exaggerated. Where are the options "I dislike the Map Pool" or "The Map Pool is decent, but could use some change". I very much do Dislike the Map Pool, but hate? I don't know about that. I think bigger maps ala Starcraft 1 could definitely do nothing but help the game though.
On January 07 2011 10:42 ZidaneTribal wrote: Map pool can definitely be better but the game is still so new that new strategies are developing even with the same maps. Eventually blizzard is going to need to accept 3rd party maps though..fan made maps have shown to have a lot of potential in bw. Also someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Warcraft 3 tournaments only involve blizzard maps? If they had fan made maps maybe the game would have been more successful.
half of the maps on blizz ladder come from custom map contests. The problem with wc3 was not the quality of the maps (most were pretty good), but the fact, that blizzard hasnt changed the mappool since 2008 (?). Since the last year more and more tournies have started to use non-ladder maps, but it was already kind off to late -_-
Also, imagine if some slight changes were made to the map pool; Metal/LT/DQ/Shakuras: You can now only spawn in cross or close-by-air/far-by-ground positions...
Then you would have some definitively strong macro maps XNC, Metal, LT, Shakuras and some maps with are less macro-oriented due to anti-macro map characteristics: Steppes, DQ (less variable depending on spawns now), Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Scrap Station.
Given that we don't want every game to be a macro-fest, I think a balance is right, and the only issue is that even the good macro maps can have close spawns. If you look at GSL recently, one of the best days of play was because we had cross spawn Shakuras x2, and cross spawn Meta x1. On the contrary, one of the worst days, we had good maps (meta/LT), but we had close spawns.... and all we needed was cross spawns to discourage short games...
Also the fact I can't even bother to watch GSL at all anymore
I will watch ret and jinro/idra but that's it. It's just so boring on these horrible maps, half the time the worse player wins because of some imbalance on the map. Seriously just so boring when only some maps have good games and that's usually dependent on not spawning right next to your opponent.
Overall Small Maps No real Macro friendly maps (without destructible rocks or highground everywhere creating stupid cheeses) Horribly unbalanced maps staying in the pool for way longer than they should because blizz is lazy/uninterested in supporting SC2.
Honestly I would have watched GSL if they had new / interesting / good maps.
if the custom games section wasn't made in the way it was it might have been better but as is no one will want to wait in a iccup map, or any other new map for that matter, for however long it takes to get non ladder games. this is only compounded by the lack of chat channels, hopefully introducing that will change things a little for the better but i think the way battlenet2.0 has been made deserves it share of blame too.
its also a bit of a shame people don't really use #tlpickup much as well.
Theres a few maps i checked off, and yeah, we could use alot more maps.
However it hasnt been all that long since release so im content for the time being. Id like some new maps within the next... say 6 months and ill be good
[x] I rage at the Map Pool harder than when Idra does against cheesy terrans.
Not even joking. I usually don't rage at my opponent, I just rage at the stupid maps that sure have a big influence on the outcome of my and everyone elses games. And yes, I do believe that some of my losses are because of the maps and not because I'm worse than my opponent.
I'm not at the point where my victories or losses are really affected by the maps (platinum), but I really am sick of seeing the same maps. The ICCup maps are great, but without an easy way to find people to play with, the wait times are too frustrating.
Blizzard needs to just expand the size of the maps, then not balance the game for 2 months. If, at the end of that period, terran actually suffers as much as some people chose to believe, buff them. but at this point, the fact that 2 rax can apply godly amounts of pressure while at the same time being perfectly safe to execute is just a joke.
I'm not sure exactly what's holding back tournament organizers (other than GSL) from using maps outside of the pool. I feel like if a few big ones (cough*TSL*cough) started using other maps, it could catch on and become standard, which would almost certainly be very good for the game.
The worry is that without an easy way to practice the maps, since custom melee games are not a big thing, open tournaments such as TSL and GSL will favor players on teams which provide practice partners rather than being neutral. A lot of people practice with randoms on the ladder and would be hurt by it if they could not practice on some of the maps being used in the pool.
I think, though, that if tournaments used these maps then custom games featuring them might become more common.
Blizzard won't do anything unless there's real pressure on them. GSL or someone needs to say to them "this shit sucks change it" and maybe they will.
Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's, and they will never lose interest in E-sports. If anything, the people who will help E-sports grow ("casuals") would probably be in favor of the map pool since it leads to more exciting, "dynamic", action packed all in filled games.
I frequent a pretty knowledgeable MMA site (perhaps too knowledgeable, bordering on elitism). It's a pretty widely known fact that casual MMA fans are the ones who keep the sport alive. Casuals are the ones buying T-shirts and PPV's, which "hardcores" would never be caught dead in an Affliction shirt and prefer to stream PPV's. The point I'm trying to make is (keep in mind these are pretty broad generalizations) this: hardcore MMA fans enjoy MMA because of the technique and synthesis of multiple martial arts in a modern fighting atmosphere. Casuals like MMA because of the brutality, violence, and blood (chanting "stand them up" when a Jiu-Jitsu fighter is in the middle of a submission attempt is just one example; casuals only like to see KO's). Meanwhile, hardcore E-sports fans (in SC2) love E-sports because of the technical mastery, and casuals just like to see shit blow up. In a fast a manner as possible. As many times as possible (once again these are very broad generalizations but I think they are applicable). In that regard, short action filled (read: all in) games are what will increase the popularity of E-sports.
tl;dr The only people who care about maps are Liquidian's. No, the map pool (as is) will not kill interest in E-sports. If anything it will help. Stop bitching about the impending demise of E-sports.
On January 07 2011 10:46 bennyaus wrote: I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now. As Tasteless said last night, nerds will never be happy, "Why isn't this perfect??!?!".
Because there's 10 years of BW to BUILD ON, not in spite of? We are not back to the dark ages are we now?
On January 07 2011 11:37 lu_cid wrote: I'm really not sure why so many people think that changing the maps will magically fix the game...
What would you say are the main problems with the game other than things such as the Lost Temple cliff drop and tiny maps making 1base timing pushes powerful?
It surprrises me to learn that some people actually DON'T want a macro game more than, say, half the time. In Brood War, macro games weren't boring. They weren't 20 minutes of sitting around, one big fight, and then that was it. Once people got good at the game, they had multi-stage gameplans involving lots of multi-pronged harass and timing pushes.
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's, and they will never lose interest in E-sports. If anything, the people who will help E-sports grow ("casuals") would probably be in favor of the map pool since it leads to more exciting, "dynamic", action packed all in filled games.
I frequent a pretty knowledgeable MMA site (perhaps too knowledgeable, bordering on elitism). It's a pretty widely known fact that casual MMA fans are the ones who keep the sport alive. Casuals are the ones buying T-shirts and PPV's, which "hardcores" would never be caught dead in an Affliction shirt and prefer to stream PPV's. The point I'm trying to make is (keep in mind these are pretty broad generalizations) this: hardcore MMA fans enjoy MMA because of the technique and synthesis of multiple martial arts in a modern fighting atmosphere. Casuals like MMA because of the brutality, violence, and blood (chanting "stand them up" when a Jiu-Jitsu fighter is in the middle of a submission attempt is just one example; casuals only like to see KO's). Meanwhile, hardcore E-sports fans (in SC2) love E-sports because of the technical mastery, and casuals just like to see shit blow up. In a fast a manner as possible. As many times as possible (once again these are very broad generalizations but I think they are applicable). In that regard, short action filled (read: all in) games are what will increase the popularity of E-sports.
tl;dr The only people who care about maps are Liquidian's. No, the map pool (as is) will not kill interest in E-sports. If anything it will help. Stop bitching about the impending demise of E-sports.
You are right that casual people don't "care" about the map pool, in that they wouldn't know much about custom maps nor would they be particularly interested but i think the point is that if the maps force a playstyle which is not spectator friendly or enjoyable then spectators won't enjoy the games and watch them in the future.
it's impossible to not hate the current sc2 map pool, at least if you played bw i think; it might just be my head still too wired to bw design/map pool, though i haven't even played it between 2005 and 2010. and no, i don't want to hear the "omg map pool is ok - game's just new" argument anymore, that one applies to the development of strategies at the individual level, and to overall (might even say, though imprecisely, metagame) unit balance, not to the environment of the matches, ie the maps. also, this is my personal take on the whole debate on the suckiness of the map pool or lack thereof
it's not necessarily that (all) the maps are bad, but things like close spawns on Meta or Steppes in its entirety need to gtfo right now. it's bad for esports, and it's bad for the gaming experience in general.
as an ex. of what i mean, i don't particularily like idra's play and only offrace zerg, but seeing him get eliminated by mvp last gsl 99% due to spawn positions (closest, on Meta), of all things which could have made a difference at that level of play, just made me rage and want to turn off the gsl stream right there. meanwhile, maps like SoW make absolutely no sense to me, if i wanted a cheese trainer (def/execute) map i'd make one for myself and practice on it.
and what i'm talking about is a sentiment shared by a vast portion of the community, if not the overwhelming majority (seems to me that would be the case but i couldn't venture so far to assume this to be undisputable facts)
now i don't want a macro fest for every game when i watch or play, and i do understand the game design overall doesn't necessarily support the bw dynamics of play, but i wouldn't mind if the current decent maps would be kept, the sucky ones removed, if there were a bit more freedom and support for mapmakers, and a more dynamic map pool (dr. watson-blizzard, how'bout don't write it in all caps in blood that you and you alone automatically own the rights to any content any user creates and posts on your bnet - hmm, perhaps owning some form of shared ip rights to a map you create as a user and blizz and its licensees use for ladder and tournament purposes would motivate some creative and knowledgeable people to breathe some fresh air into the staleness of the by now putrid set of ladder maps we got to play on)
i do believe that ultimately all major issues with maps, similarly to race design issues and unit imbalance problems being raised by the community, will mostly be solved with the additional content in the two expansions to come -and not before then-, just like SC1 could only become what it is today after BW came out; but i think there need to be some steps taken by blizz in the direction of opening transparent lines of collaboration with would-be map designers so that we can have high quality and diverse map pools that make tourneys entertaining, laddering more dynamic, and custom game practice/funsies more enjoyable/useful for competitive purposes
should note i'm actually not playing sc2 right now, though still watching the gsl and major tourneys, but instead lanning some bw 1v1 with an old friend i used to play with, until i get some urging to play sc2 again. sc2, while an amazing game, can get aggravating to play sometimes for reasons which shouldn't impact the gaming experience so strongly (ex.: bnet suck, map pool - gimme back lan and more maps, faster, made by non-blizz designers if necessary, thank you) also, that i'm an average player and great fan of both bw and sc2, so nothing in this post is motivated by any form of elitism or nostalgia
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's
Right there, [citation needed]. If the maps make for boring games - and I have yet to see any evidence only TL posters think so - that affects the quality of spectating for everyone.
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's, and they will never lose interest in E-sports. If anything, the people who will help E-sports grow ("casuals") would probably be in favor of the map pool since it leads to more exciting, "dynamic", action packed all in filled games.
I frequent a pretty knowledgeable MMA site (perhaps too knowledgeable, bordering on elitism). It's a pretty widely known fact that casual MMA fans are the ones who keep the sport alive. Casuals are the ones buying T-shirts and PPV's, which "hardcores" would never be caught dead in an Affliction shirt and prefer to stream PPV's. The point I'm trying to make is (keep in mind these are pretty broad generalizations) this: hardcore MMA fans enjoy MMA because of the technique and synthesis of multiple martial arts in a modern fighting atmosphere. Casuals like MMA because of the brutality, violence, and blood (chanting "stand them up" when a Jiu-Jitsu fighter is in the middle of a submission attempt is just one example; casuals only like to see KO's). Meanwhile, hardcore E-sports fans (in SC2) love E-sports because of the technical mastery, and casuals just like to see shit blow up. In a fast a manner as possible. As many times as possible (once again these are very broad generalizations but I think they are applicable). In that regard, short action filled (read: all in) games are what will increase the popularity of E-sports.
tl;dr The only people who care about maps are Liquidian's. No, the map pool (as is) will not kill interest in E-sports. If anything it will help. Stop bitching about the impending demise of E-sports.
How in any way are fast all-in games "dynamic"? Dynamic means continuous change. There is nothing more monotonous than repetetive, all-in, 1-base games. Many posters here have mentioned not even watching TvZ games anymore, because they are so un-dynamic. People want to see action, yes, but they also want it to be unpredictable. Does your favorite fighter go for the same combination of moves every time? And does it always work? Probably not, and if they did no one would care to see it.
I played BW maybe seven or eight times when I was about twelve. I have no knowledge of the maps, I didn't play competitively enough to pay attention.
However, the map pool currently to me is rather bland. I'm not one to get into balance, however, as a Zerg player, I have JB downvoted and hate it. I can't win vs. T or P. That being said, I'm indifferent to the other maps. They do get a little boring playing over and over, but it helps me develop strategies on the different maps.
makes me lol when news comes out of 10 people turning up to see Boxer play..
seems this game is heading down the shitter, at least in korea. And lets face it, unless your cap is on backwards and you say "bro" there is not e-spots in the west. its just halo and fighting games.
Blizzard could so easily fix this. Map making isn't particularly challenging, and they have millions of tools to do it. Time for some VARIETY.
Even if the maps are ribonucleic... err ridiculous i mean.. at first, at least start getting them out there, see what works and what doesn't, before the game stagnates too much
everytime I see a gsl game that is announced on Blistering Sands, Delta, Jungle or Steps, I'm inches away from turning off. They make for terrible games.
I stopped playing about a month ago also. Because of those maps. ANd now that they've removed my fav. map ? To little chance of getting a fun map. Can't stand rushing
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's
Right there, [citation needed]. If the maps make for boring games - and I have yet to see any evidence only TL posters think so - that affects the quality of spectating for everyone.
Nor is there evidence that all TL posters think the maps make for boring games.
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's
Right there, [citation needed]. If the maps make for boring games - and I have yet to see any evidence only TL posters think so - that affects the quality of spectating for everyone.
Nor is there evidence that all TL posters think the maps make for boring games.
Why would there need to be? There's evidence that a lot of them do, look at the forums every day...
Map pool is god awful. They got rid of Shakuras because games lasted too long lol. The maps need to be larger, and less gimmicky. So more fun macro style can be played and less, "oh, its been 4 minutes, time to all in and win!!!" happens in big name tourneys. You would think they would catch on after all the hate with GSL season 3 for cheese. Seein as they sponsor the damn thing.
On January 07 2011 11:34 Omigawa wrote: Dumbest allegation ever. The only people who care about the map pool are Liquidian's
Right there, [citation needed]. If the maps make for boring games - and I have yet to see any evidence only TL posters think so - that affects the quality of spectating for everyone.
Nor is there evidence that all TL posters think the maps make for boring games.
on the first page of this thread there is a poll. it isn't exactly unanimous but there is certainly a large majority.
On January 07 2011 11:46 Eschaton wrote: How in any way are fast all-in games "dynamic"? Dynamic means continuous change. There is nothing more monotonous than repetetive, all-in, 1-base games. Many posters here have mentioned not even watching TvZ games anymore, because they are so un-dynamic. People want to see action, yes, but they also want it to be unpredictable. Does your favorite fighter go for the same combination of moves every time? And does it always work? Probably not, and if they did no one would care to see it.
The map isn't the main factor of why people dislike watching TvZ. It's more so marine/scv all-ins are just so powerful early on that you can beat the zerg a good majority of the time. Hence why you see this on Steppes and you also see it on Shakaras.
It's either...
Map is too small. Map has too many cliffs. Map has too many small chokes.
I really don't think maps are that bad. Apparently TvZ close positions on metal or lost temple are not favorable for the zerg (yeah i agree with that) or maybe that's just because zerg early game sucks or terran early game is too strong (weird didn't we hear blizzard say this before?)
Pretty soon with all this map complaining we're just going to have a 256x256 flat square map with no cliffs, choke points or water and just loaded with minerals in the corners, naturals at random spots and xel'naga towers at 1,3,6,9 spots!
Map pool is apparently very "meh" with how things are. Shakuras Plateau, Scrap Station and Metalopolis are very good maps but the rest are either mediocre or bad (Blistering Sands, Steppes of War and Desert Oasis)
I think Blizzard should set up something like a monthly competition for map makers to make custom melee maps and add them into the official map pool based on public reception. These maps will be played under a different melee ladder or something. I think that would be the most efficient method in making more balanced maps that do not take resource and time on Blizzard's behalf.
Of course there has to be some guideline so they can't make maps like Fastest Possible Map's layout slip into the official map pool.
okay, i got to "SC:BW always had new maps coming out because the servers and map pool in ladder was controlled by third parties" and realized...SC2 has only been out a few months...at this time in SC 1's life span BW wasn't even out and it was still a few months off...soo for now yes the maps are really bad but I know the ICCUP SC2 tourneys are using custom maps but just give it a little time
On January 07 2011 11:37 lu_cid wrote: I'm really not sure why so many people think that changing the maps will magically fix the game...
What would you say are the main problems with the game other than things such as the Lost Temple cliff drop and tiny maps making 1base timing pushes powerful?
It surprrises me to learn that some people actually DON'T want a macro game more than, say, half the time. In Brood War, macro games weren't boring. They weren't 20 minutes of sitting around, one big fight, and then that was it. Once people got good at the game, they had multi-stage gameplans involving lots of multi-pronged harass and timing pushes.
maps make a huge difference on a game. Look at every game played on Steppes of War compared to the epic games such as Clide vs Leenock on shakuras and Kyrix vs MKP on Xelnaga.
you won't see all taht sht happening on Steppes or Delta Quadrant. Or even Blistering Sands.
We can only hope that chat channels will save us. The problem again is that because of blizzards hold on the gsl i see to get into GSL code b "Code B : Top ladder players who are given the right to play in Code A preliminary."
sooo that means anyone trying to get into the largest tournament around will be forced to ladder and thus practice ladder maps. This leaves the fate of the map pool entirely in blizzards ever incapable hands.
On January 07 2011 12:05 Turgid wrote: Blizzard still hasn't said why Shakuras was removed or why it's STILL gone. It's really weird.
no they haven't... however, there was a bug discovered a week before it was removed... also what's weird about them not saying anything about it?
For everyone talking about BW maps this and that, SC2 is a brand new game (were most of you too young to play 'vanilla' SC?) give it some time. Second, SC2 has a lot of different/new mechanics (mainly WG and cliff walking/jumping). I don't think maps that ignore those elements make for particularly good maps.
My favorite maps right now are the larger 4-6 player maps for 1v1 (I'm not a huge fan of the iccup ports - but that could also be from lack of exposure).
Blizzard is trying to balance the game, and the inclusion of new maps into the ladder would make this very difficult. I imagine Blizzard is going to take it slow with the maps until they're pretty sure that the game is balanced.
I only like 1-3 maps in the map pool, rest are just rubbish.
I wish Blizzard gets their heads out of their asses and starts adding usermade maps soon cause the current ones are fucking awful and are hindering game balance progress :/
I want some really good map-maker to get some crazy stuff going on and make games more micro-oriented. Honestly for me that's where all the fun is at, the micro. Remember TLOwnage? All that good stuff? That was exciting (objectively, if you have an opinion different then please remove yourself) stuff! Nowadays it's just a-moving large armies. Maybe they should cut down on the resources or something. Another idea was to make smaller maps so that rushes and faster-oriented plays. I get the feeling that once SC2 settles down we'll be able to see some more dynamic play.
I'm surprised it's been half a year and still no significant updates have been made to Bnet 2.0 or the map pool, are they even trying to improve or just don't care since the game is out and they made the profit. >_<
I fricking loathe the map pool except Metalopolis, especially teamgames, the gameplay in 3vs3 is horrid because of the stupid maps. OH and Blistering Sands is fucking AWFUL to play TvP...
On January 07 2011 12:33 TERRANLOL wrote: Blizzard is trying to balance the game, and the inclusion of new maps into the ladder would make this very difficult. I imagine Blizzard is going to take it slow with the maps until they're pretty sure that the game is balanced.
I don't think you understand how much the maps make up so much of the ballance of the game, right now in BW the maps are largely zerg favored which is why in the msl there are at least 1 zerg in every game you see, and a couple zvz's. Trying to balance a game with lackluster maps and waiting to change, isnt going to balance the game when new maps, POSSIBLY larger maps would completely change how each race would respond to certain scenarios.
To put it bluntly, if we had a map that was 4 player with the distances of Scrap Station from each player's base, thor rushing simply wouldn't be as powerful, zergs could easily delay spine crawlers in each match up, and 4 warp gate would take several seconds longer, all and all making that push weaker.
And if you still are not conviced go and read Map of the Swarm By Konadora. It is a great article and talks a lot about how that map affected BW play.
Macro games are still micro and positioning intensive if you're playing very well. In fact it might be even tougher on your micro skills to do it very well than shorter 1base games because holy crap does managing a few bases and defending harass make it hard to blink your stalkers around. But since micro techniques are still, to a large degree, valid in medium and large numbers, the best players will do them. There are still epic micro moments in macro games. Imagine some SC2 god years in the future keeping his minerals and gas below 100 while on 5 bases and marine splitting versus speedbanes on creep. Imagine the sick feints, fungals, and surrounds from the responding zerg player. With automine and MBS, the micro involved in humongous macro games could be insane. That makes sense in my head, at least.
Although I do want small rush distances to remain in the game for as long as it takes for me to see a queen transfuse a fired-on baneling and save it for long enough for it to make contact with a group of marines.
On January 07 2011 12:49 SonKiE wrote: the iccup maps blow dick for sc2
I am sorry.. but you took the effort to decide that comment is necessary and then post it?
OT: If we know how important maps are to balance, surely blizzard knows; they do not live underneath a rock somewhere in the middle of the desert. They understand the importance of maps but altering more variables make identifying current balance issues even harder.. just have patience.
I know I'm probably a minority in saying this, but the ever changing bw map pool annoyed me, and i found it difficult to keep up with. the game is complicated as is, and when you add fancy new map features every month, it's too much imo.
i don't care for the map pool much, however i think any map has interesting potential (need tweeking maybe) ...sort of... and f..k blizz for not having added to the pool (basically you should never substract (yes even incineration) to the pool, or possibly after you've added as many as you're withdrawing)
I personally feel we need new maps, for the sole reason that they are just too small. Every time I watch a BW game I just wish I could play on those maps. I played on the ICCup's match point port over to SC2 and that map felt huge by comparison to like blistering sands or metalopolis. I mean really you can pylon art the center of it. Python is another one of my favorite port, because not only is it an old friend from the BW days, but the middle is massive. I'm fairly sure you can fit stepps of war in the center of python.
On January 07 2011 12:36 Essentia wrote: Eliminate Steppes,Jungle Basin, Delta
Fix the cliff on Lost temple
Add a few huge maps with 4 starting locations
problem solved
wow dude you are fucking genius. you should be on the blizzard development team. have they heard any of these ground breaking ideas yet? they are absolutly amazing and i take my hat off to you sir.
On January 07 2011 13:04 PhiliBiRD wrote: to go as far as saying killing interest is wayyyyyyyyyyy overboard. its way to early to even consider that.
No it's not. SC2 interest in Korea is very clearly dwindling. There's another thread on it x]
I said in the other thread, but I'll say it again here. Larger maps are necessary.
People really need to get out of their heads the misjudged and false idea that larger maps automatically mean long macro games. You can get plenty of cheese/unorthodox/early rush type play on large maps. For example, take the current BW map, Pathfinder. It's very similar to DO and Scrap Station except on a much larger scale. Because of the layout of the map, more uncommon air-based play is the norm, unlike games on other maps, where play is more ground-based. Not only that, but short, fast games are still very possible. Stork had an amazing (read: one-sided rape) game against Hiya on Pathfinder, which ended in less than 20 minutes despite Pathfinder being bigger than every SC2 map out there. (Yea, it's mostly due to Hiya's fail but still.) Short games can happen on larger maps. Same is true for unorthodox and cheesy play. What larger maps do, rather, is allow for the possibility of longer and more action-packed games rather than the current SC2 map pool which basically forces a specific type of play.
EDIT: Also, when the fuck will Blizzard put in community made maps into the ladder? If it's not in ladder, then all the gesturing by Blizzard saying "community maps are great!" or "tourneys can use their own maps" is utter and completely fucking bullshit. Ladder accounts for the majority of practice by pros and amateurs alike. Community maps not being on ladder is practically the same fucking thing as community maps not existing (in the big picture anyways).
Also, Blizzard's view of "larger maps is bad for noobs" has some weight, but honestly, just give diamond league (maybe even platinum) a different mappool if noobs are held in such high regard at Blizzard HQ.
all i have to say is.... blizzard took a racially imbalanced crap map from 1998 that was considered imbalanced years ago. redid it in the map editor so that it has fancy textures, nothing inspiring but a step above the bw ones, and threw it in the beta pool. and it has been there since.
People need to be more patient it took years for SCBW to develop into the game it is today... Not to mention it didnt even hit its peak until the BW expansion pack.
Desert Oasis (revised version) is better than half the current ladder map pool, and I would contend is as good as Shakuras Plateau as a macro map.
I don't get it, Blizzard could have a map guy enlarge an existing map or build on the same concept and have something better in a day. What's taking so long?
On January 07 2011 13:17 KneeDeeP wrote: People need to be more patient it took years for SCBW to develop into the game it is today... Not to mention it didnt even hit its peak until the BW expansion pack.
dude we are in 2011 with a huge community. it was not the same in 2000 or 2001. u cannot compare sc1 with sc2.
if they dont change things in the near future people gonna stream away to other games. the maps are such a joke, even the 3v3 and 4v4 maps. i just hate them..all of them :[
On January 07 2011 13:17 KneeDeeP wrote: People need to be more patient it took years for SCBW to develop into the game it is today... Not to mention it didnt even hit its peak until the BW expansion pack.
While patience is definitely needed, if we have to wait a decade for SC2 to become "developed" then you can forget about SC2 becoming mainstream and popular. In the Western world, at least in the US anyways, the public needs more or less instant gratification. The public will not wait ten years for SC2 to become big. If Blizzard wants SC2 to be the face of esports, they need to take action now. Korea doesn't need SC2; they have BW and will gladly throw away SC2 and watch/play BW instead.
I see no advantage/reason for Blizzard or anybody, the community included, to take the let's-wait-10-years approach to letting SC2 becoming popular, because that approach will only result in SC2's failure as a popular esport.
I am making a spreadsheet to track the overall statistics of the GSL 4, which includes the victors of each set and the quality of each map played. with these, I can check which maps are the most and least liked. Would anyone like to see more of this? Are there any other columns that I should add?
On January 07 2011 11:36 -orb- wrote: They don't have to make new maps, they just have to allow community maps into the ladder map pool.
I don't understand why it's so hard t_t
Seriously, this.
They say they want the community to build maps, but they won't put them in ladder due to being too "complicated for new players." The community builds maps. The tournament organizers all say "we need these in ladder for people to practice." The pro players say "we need these in ladder to practice." The fans are as a majority saying "we want new maps." Blizzard reinforces the point that maps are not their problem and the community should deal with it.
It's a real easy solution, custom map pool for the Masters League. I may not have a PHD but this seems pretty simple....
On January 07 2011 13:22 fabiano wrote: People need to remember that SC2 has 10 years of BW experience.
There is no excuse for the lame current state of the game.
Isn't this ironic? It took 10 years for BW to be where it's at, ppl still complain that it is a terran fest. SC2 was released not even 6 months ago, I don't see how the post makes sense.
On January 07 2011 11:36 -orb- wrote: They don't have to make new maps, they just have to allow community maps into the ladder map pool.
I don't understand why it's so hard t_t
Seriously, this.
They say they want the community to build maps, but they won't put them in ladder due to being too "complicated for new players." The community builds maps. The tournament organizers all say "we need these in ladder for people to practice." The pro players say "we need these in ladder to practice." The fans are as a majority saying "we want new maps." Blizzard reinforces the point that maps are not their problem and the community should deal with it.
It's a real easy solution, custom map pool for the Masters League. I may not have a PHD but this seems pretty simple....
They already have thing where it segregates new players, why cant blizz just put their shitty maps in their practice league and let the rest of us play on good maps. Hell, why not segment based on ladder rank. Bronze: nothing but stepps. Silver: you get crap station as well. Gold: LT. Plat: Metal and xel naga. Diamond: good custom maps. at least then blizz's retarded ladder system actually has meaning.
On January 07 2011 11:36 -orb- wrote: They don't have to make new maps, they just have to allow community maps into the ladder map pool.
I don't understand why it's so hard t_t
Seriously, this.
They say they want the community to build maps, but they won't put them in ladder due to being too "complicated for new players." The community builds maps. The tournament organizers all say "we need these in ladder for people to practice." The pro players say "we need these in ladder to practice." The fans are as a majority saying "we want new maps." Blizzard reinforces the point that maps are not their problem and the community should deal with it.
It's a real easy solution, custom map pool for the Masters League. I may not have a PHD but this seems pretty simple....
Pfff well im not taking you seriously if you don't have a PhD ..
Maybe blizzard is having some control issues? It's a new game that they have spent a lot time and money on and may not want to give up total control of the game just yet until they are comfortable..
On the other hand; they are being so stupid by taking their sweet ass time and allowing this problem to fester.. everyone has a breaking point..
On January 07 2011 13:22 fabiano wrote: People need to remember that SC2 has 10 years of BW experience.
There is no excuse for the lame current state of the game.
Isn't this ironic? It took 10 years for BW to be where it's at, ppl still complain that it is a terran fest. SC2 was released not even 6 months ago, I don't see how the post makes sense.
So you think Blizzard needs 2 more years to add better maps to the pool? 3 more years to implement replays in group?
It is very fun to me that useless shit like achievements and facebook integration came directly with the game but core features such the mentioned above and chat channels are added just later with patches.
Rightnow, in my eyes SC2 looks like an unfinished project that was forced to be released.
On January 07 2011 13:32 Boozerr wrote: I am making a spreadsheet to track the overall statistics of the GSL 4, which includes the victors of each set and the quality of each map played. with these, I can check which maps are the most and least liked. Would anyone like to see more of this? Are there any other columns that I should add?
It might be nice if you also added the game length in a column (doing your best to look at the in-game clock as the game finishes).
I think that the essential problem is that we have a ladder where both long time pros play and complete newbies. So the ladder maps need to be simple enough that people can figure them out and enjoy if they've never played an RTS before (because growing the community is a GOOD thing, raging at newbies is moronic) but they also need to be interesting enough for some real strategic depth.
I'm pretty sure that meeting both requirements is impossible. There needs to be multiple map pools, somehow. This would cause other problems, but not as significant as those caused by the poor quality maps.
Reading some of these posts, it seems like a lot of people, with perhaps their only frame of reference being StarCraft 2, don't realize how essential good maps are to StarCraft 2's success. As some people have said, the same goes for Brood War. The game won't strategically develop or, more importantly, be anywhere near as exciting as it would be on good maps. A lot of balance issues are solved with maps as well.
The fact that most tournaments are scared to use custom maps and that Blizzard has not and seems to have no interest in creating a better map pool, is very disappointing. It would be great if tournaments started using custom maps but even then, it's beyond ridiculous that we would be forced to use Blizzard's garbage on ladder. It's more than a thorn in our side; it's a fucking knife wound, and I fear that the longer it lasts the more damage it will do.
I am watching a lot less streams than I used to. It is just boring watching the 10,000th game on Lost Template/Metalopolis/Scrap Station. If I have to hear about the rush distance on Scrap Station one more time..................
The desire to have the BW level map pool is a pretty pre-mature, the outstanding maps like outsider and dest etc came in a good 10 years after the game was released, when nearly everything was figured out.
How often was LT played on BW and don't say it was anymore balanced in BW.
You cannot blame blizz for letting maps take a backseat for the time being when they are still trying to balance the game with another 2 expansions to come.
On January 07 2011 14:46 fearus wrote: The desire to have the BW level map pool is a pretty pre-mature, the outstanding maps like outsider and dest etc came in a good 10 years after the game was released, when nearly everything was figured out.
How often was LT played on BW and don't say it was anymore balanced in BW.
You cannot blame blizz for letting maps take a backseat for the time being when they are still trying to balance the game with another 2 expansions to come.
Nostalgia, Namja and Luna just never existed right? There are plenty of amazing maps if you dig back long enough, and while some wouldn't be balanced today - they might have been then.
On January 07 2011 14:46 fearus wrote: The desire to have the BW level map pool is a pretty pre-mature, the outstanding maps like outsider and dest etc came in a good 10 years after the game was released, when nearly everything was figured out.
How often was LT played on BW and don't say it was anymore balanced in BW.
You cannot blame blizz for letting maps take a backseat for the time being when they are still trying to balance the game with another 2 expansions to come.
The thing is, new maps can shift balance, provoke new ideas and play styles. They're a requirement for a RTS game, especially one that has a terrible foundation of maps to begin with.
I have mild distaste for the current map pool, I find that some of the maps have very interesting architecture that could make for cool games but are of the wrong size. I would consider Blistering Sands my guilty pleasure and I would be sad to see the map go, I find the middle of that map leads to very tactical play which I enjoy. Steppes could be good if they moved the natural and made it much larger.
Metal and Shakuras are decent maps. Metal could use some changes to keep it from becoming stupid in close positions, Shakuras is pretty amazing due to its size.
Some maps just need to go, I cannot bring myself to play a game on Jungle Basin, it is just too painful of an experience trying to scrape up a third only to get rolled by a two base timing. I fell like JB pigeon holes the strategies people can perform which is the opposite of what maps should do.
EDIT: Plexa makes a good point, with a volatile map pool the game can be balanced more easily as they can be phazed out when an overly abusive strategy is discovered on them that causes the game to become 1 dimensional because you know that blank race will almost always do _________ strategy. A changing map pool allows for snap balancing as the state of the game changes.
SC2 definitely needs new maps. I was very surprised when they removed Desert Oasis from the pool, a great map.
However, they do need to throw out half of the current map pool and replace them, at least, with the iCCup SC2 Maps of the week or something brand new of their own, maybe.
Im also sick of the constant "but if maps are bigger terran will stink" thoughts. Terran has the best static d in the entire game: siege tanks. Big maps means once the terran has a couple of tanks on high ground, they can then devote their attention to harassing their opponent, who with a bigger map, will have a harder time dealing with harass. Not to mention the fact that terran units excel in small numbers.
I enjoy Metalopolis, XNC, Lost Temple, Scrap Station, Shakura's Plateau, and Blistering Sands. I play 80% of my games on these maps so I wouldn't say I mind the map pool all that much.
People will continue to argue that good maps are essential to the success of the game. I however believe that SC2 is inherently broken and it will not matter if maps are big or small - the protoss warp in mechanic. The ability to create units at virtually any point in the map completely negates any concept in map rush distance. A strat like 4gate all-in can be viable on any and every map.
Or even if you do start playing on large maps, what about the lack zerg t1 antiair? Fast phoenix builds would become extremely popular on large maps as photon cannons are so effective against zerglings, roaches would take forever to cross the map and in sufficient numbers - when even then, warp-in is a cheap and fast upgrade that allows a protoss to alter and reinforce their build if need be by that timing.
I HATE the map pool. It's fucking terrible. Being a Zerg, it's 50% skill and 50% map/spawning positions. Fuck that. This game is good but I'm quitting over something that would take Blizzard so very little time to fix. It's so sad.
I completely agree that the maps are terrible. It seems like Blizzard has always been weak in creating maps. In both BW and WC3 the Korean maps were so far superior. Unfortunately, they never really took off in WC3 since the Korean TV leagues died out.
The size of the maps are far too small(which is made even worse by close spawns) and the narrow chokes all over are devastating.
On January 07 2011 15:07 Gigaudas wrote: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I accidentally voted "I like the map pool".
I HATE the map pool. It's fucking terrible. Being a Zerg, it's 50% skill and 50% map/spawning positions. Fuck that. This game is good but I'm quitting over something that would take Blizzard so very little time to fix. It's so sad.
FML. i pressed it too cause i thought the top choice was ' i hate the map pool'
On January 07 2011 14:25 Xxio wrote: Reading some of these posts, it seems like a lot of people, with perhaps their only frame of reference being StarCraft 2, don't realize how essential good maps are to StarCraft 2's success. As some people have said, the same goes for Brood War. The game won't strategically develop or, more importantly, be anywhere near as exciting as it would be on good maps. A lot of balance issues are solved with maps as well.
The fact that most tournaments are scared to use custom maps and that Blizzard has not and seems to have no interest in creating a better map pool, is very disappointing. It would be great if tournaments started using custom maps but even then, it's beyond ridiculous that we would be forced to use Blizzard's garbage on ladder. It's more than a thorn in our side; it's a fucking knife wound, and I fear that the longer it lasts the more damage it will do.
Perfect Post.
I just cant believe the reasoning that GOMTV gave.
"Were keeping the map pool because what about the guys like Idra who dont have a team? How is that fair?"
WOW so because a few guys that dont have teams, we cant allow custom maps because the GSL would be ruined??!?!?!?
If the GSL started using custom maps they would rer-evolutionize SC2 just like they did in season 1 thanks to fruit dealer.
I'd like to see more maps with more than 2 spawn points, but having a limitation like Shakuras where you cannot spawn super close to your opponent.
Although I remember when SC just came out and LT was the map to play on and it was very difficult to defend a cliff drop if the Terran wanted it bad enough. Protoss and Zerg got creative and started doing Cannon / Hydra cliffing (and eventually lurker drops). They weren't super overpowered because you could still attack the cliffed units somewhat, but were strong strategies.
My previous paragraph reminds me how much I miss the old style of cliff mechanics...I've always thought the vision requirement was rather stupid, it makes cliffs way too powerful if caught by surprise, instead of the high ground having just a slight advantage.
I don't care if the maps currently are imbalanced, or if they are perfect. They are bland and old. Its like reading the same book over and over everynight, or watching the same season of a show on DVD over and over. Imagine 2 months from now. Do you want to watch the GSL with the same maps that are out now? Or maybe if they added in more maps it would be worth it by then?
But keep in mind that Starcraft 2 was designed with short, action-packed games in mind, because that is what Blizzard thought would attract people to the game.
Hopefully Blizzard will design new units in the expansion packs and new maps to greater emphasize the sort of positional play and unit control you will find in BW.
On January 07 2011 14:46 fearus wrote: The desire to have the BW level map pool is a pretty pre-mature, the outstanding maps like outsider and dest etc came in a good 10 years after the game was released, when nearly everything was figured out.
How often was LT played on BW and don't say it was anymore balanced in BW.
You cannot blame blizz for letting maps take a backseat for the time being when they are still trying to balance the game with another 2 expansions to come.
The thing is, new maps can shift balance, provoke new ideas and play styles. They're a requirement for a RTS game, especially one that has a terrible foundation of maps to begin with.
I wholeheartedly agree with this from proot.
You can certainly make the argument of "game has only been out 6 months" or whatever it is we're up to - but the fact is, even if they put more bad maps in the map pool - it's better than sitting around waiting for nothing to happen.
As a player who prefers team games over 1s - the team game map pool feels like Blizzard is just playing a joke. I seriously think some times "wow, did someone make this on their lunch break?" (looking at you, Frontier). I can appreciate that Blizzard obviously understands that Team Games aren't the focus of the majority of the player base - who can blame them for that? The main issue I see in this ideal is that there have not been any changes to 1v1 maps for a while now, disregarding the upcoming change in 1.2
I for one, would be happy just to see some shitty maps come out, for Blizzard to say "hey try these on for size" and we can all run around on them and see how they go. This does not create a bad mark on Blizzards image, just because they made a shit map. It promotes the idea that they are keeping the game fresh and dynamic, which - given the fact that I am posting in this particular thread about this topic - it clearly isn't at the moment.
It needs to change, it has to change - and in my humble opinion, I think that the map pool is part of the reason that SC2 hasn't exploded in Korea. The maps not changing does not promote any creativity on the part of the players - once someone picks up something special about a build/unit on the map - the rest of the player base uses it as a cookie cutter, and you have situations like now where PvP is (to me) also a joke. This means that fans don't see anything creative or imaginative, we see the same thing, every, freaking time.
There are various "negative thinkers" as I like to call them - who came out after TLO started doing some crazy shit and said "eh it's not that interesting, it's risky, and he pulled it off. That's all". This may be true, it may be correct from a certain point of view - but the matter of the fact is, players like TLO and (I hate to say this, but) GuineaPig pull stuff out of a hat, and make people think "Hmm, that's actually kinda cool" and we have creative minds that come out and try different things. If the map pool doesn't change, doesn't bring different "map strat" thoughts to the table, players like TLO and other creative brains will wither away, because the "I have a solid build which works every time" players will simply beat them.
I understand that yes if you have a "fundamental build that works, use it" sure - but winning is not what this is about. This is about promoting the mindset of future change, whereby a map comes out and over time things change, always for the better of the fans. Because once again to be honest - would we have esports without fans? We'd still have the games sure... but a major part of esports is the fans.
I don't see how people can point at the map pool, and then say "it'll make e-sports dead". Have you forgotten BW in Europe and the USA? Oh right, there wasn't much to remember anyways. SC2 is already a bigger e-sport there, and despite the terribad maps, I think Blizzard should get some more love.
Are there any VODs of top Koreans or top foreigners playing on custom maps? I am highly interested in seeing how they play on custom maps compared to current Blizzard maps.
I don't expect Blizzard to adopt custom maps for their own ladder. It would be nice, but historically they have shown a great deal of stubbornness regarding ladder maps for any of their games.
Luckily, chat rooms should really help in promoting custom maps by allowing people to find opponents much easier. Thus, the problem of "everyone is playing ladder maps blah" should be rectified somewhat and tournaments could then be less timid in using custom maps.
Sure Idra has a team, as do most of the Korean pros. The thing about using non-Blizzard maps for GSL or any other tournament is that you alienate everyone that doesn't have practice partners.
On January 07 2011 15:29 BouBou.865 wrote: I don't see how people can point at the map pool, and then say "it'll make e-sports dead". Have you forgotten BW in Europe and the USA? Oh right, there wasn't much to remember anyways. SC2 is already a bigger e-sport there, and despite the terribad maps, I think Blizzard should get some more love.
What does this post even mean? They are saying that the map pool remaining as it is will "make esports dead." As in, future tense. Then you are replying that it isn't currently dead? That's honestly not even a valid response. Also, you admit IN YOUR POST that the map pool is terrible, which is the entire point of these discussions. These aren't "Do we love Blizzard" discussion, or "Is esports going to die?" discussions; they're discussions ENTIRELY about the state of the map pool and the effects of maps on the game.
You know, Blizzard has a Custom Map spotlight announcement or something along those lines every month. If they cannot take it upon themselves to design more maps for StarCraft 2 right now, at the very least why don't they expand that section to recognize player made melee maps? Then Blizz would just have to then integrate them into the ladder, just changing the creator tag for recognition. There's plenty of Iccup maps out there right now that would do just fine in the map pool.
On January 07 2011 15:24 LunarC wrote: I don't like many of Blizzard's maps.
But keep in mind that Starcraft 2 was designed with short, action-packed games in mind, because that is what Blizzard thought would attract people to the game.
Hopefully Blizzard will design new units in the expansion packs and new maps to greater emphasize the sort of positional play and unit control you will find in BW.
"Short, action-packed games" is an oxy-moron. Is a 4 minute marine-scv rush "action-packed"? Hardly, nor is it that interesting to watch. Is two massive 200/200 armies going at it in the middle of the map, with plenty of re-enforcements "action-packed"? Hell yes it is. Long macro games are full of small, medium, and large battles that come together to eventually decide a victor, often times not the person we were expecting to win as well. When a game never makes it past T1 units, that is as far from action-packed as it gets. I don't know a single person who watched the Boxer-Nestea championship and thought they were amazing "action-packed" games. They were short, decisive, and predictable.
On January 07 2011 15:31 eviltomahawk wrote: Are there any VODs of top Koreans or top foreigners playing on custom maps? I am highly interested in seeing how they play on custom maps compared to current Blizzard maps.
I don't expect Blizzard to adopt custom maps for their own ladder. It would be nice, but historically they have shown a great deal of stubbornness regarding ladder maps for any of their games.
Luckily, chat rooms should really help in promoting custom maps by allowing people to find opponents much easier. Thus, the problem of "everyone is playing ladder maps blah" should be rectified somewhat and tournaments could then be less timid in using custom maps.
I found this one a little while ago and casted it - however I don't' think you can call them "top pros", nevertheless, it's on a custom map. Hilariously enough, it's essentially an SC2 remake of Python.
I don't know, to me it kills my interest if im gonna be watching these same shitty maps over the rest of GSL. That's just my thoughts, I don't know how many people echo those, hence this thread. Will it kill esports? idk, or care, it kills all interest from me at least.
If map pool will be the same till heart of the swarm, I personally am done watching GSL/other tournies. I just do not enjoy watching stupid crap like kulas ravine, steppes, blistering sand, jungle basin etc. They are horrible horrible maps.
It's just something the game needs (dynamic map pool) for me to be interested in it.
I dont mind the maps, i feel they have alot of variety. I felt like Kulas was the right idea for a strong map but just a little too bad for zerg. I think they should rotate 3 maps out every 8 weeks for 3 new ones and just keep that going to keep the ladder feeling fresh.
The funny thing is though, despite the same maps people have changed strats a bit... some strats have expanded some maps have narrowed down in terms of strats...
Expanded strats: people have taken on new expansion patterns on jungle basin or worked in fast expansions where they wouldnt work on other maps
narrowed strats: Scrap station PvZ you used to be able to 4 gate or 4 gate... now you have to either 4 gate or 4 gate
On January 07 2011 15:41 XXXSmOke wrote: Guys I know Idra is on EG...
But nobody in EG is in SKorea....
Ask yourself this
Should GOMTV be at the mercy of those who do not have practice partners???
I'm pretty sure gomtv has no plans to make their own maps (due to the same reasons as every other tournament organization). Hence it's up to blizzard and they also have no interest and expect tourneys to create maps.
It's a lose-lose situation thanks to bnet 2.0 (like all efforts of bnet 2.0).
Blizz - Custom maps are up to the tournaments
Tournaments (mlg/gomtv) - We cant use custom maps due to bnet 2.0 and alienating players due to requiring non ladder play.
On January 07 2011 15:04 a176 wrote: People will continue to argue that good maps are essential to the success of the game. I however believe that SC2 is inherently broken and it will not matter if maps are big or small - the protoss warp in mechanic. The ability to create units at virtually any point in the map completely negates any concept in map rush distance. A strat like 4gate all-in can be viable on any and every map.
Or even if you do start playing on large maps, what about the lack zerg t1 antiair? Fast phoenix builds would become extremely popular on large maps as photon cannons are so effective against zerglings, roaches would take forever to cross the map and in sufficient numbers - when even then, warp-in is a cheap and fast upgrade that allows a protoss to alter and reinforce their build if need be by that timing.
you mean blizzard might be forced to actually make some changes?
that's probably the real reason. they might have to change a mechanic or two to make things work out. zerg still has no 1 food attacking unit, which I think is counter to the design philosophy of starcraft. y
On January 07 2011 10:46 bennyaus wrote: I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now. As Tasteless said last night, nerds will never be happy, "Why isn't this perfect??!?!".
I think this is a flawed way of thinking about it, sc1 took years because it was an original game and people didn't know what to expect from it. SC2 is out and it has similar game play and people already know what they want from it from the 10 years of experience we had from sc1. Different games yes, but we all know what we want.
I feel exactly like the OP :-( current map pool stagnant, honestly I dont care that much about the quality of the maps..I just want them to remove the ultra small ones and obvious bad ones, and keep refreshing it every now and then... thats the key to bws long lasting success.
but we all know the blizzard of today is not the same blizzard of 10 years ago..they operate differntly and its queite obvious from a multitude of things in sc2, like no lan support, no chat, no crossrealm, no singleplayer without online connection, xbox-looking game lobby. awfull customgame lobby.........I could go on all day.
the game itself is kinda awsome.
Like so many others have said, how hard can it be? seriously all you need to do is employ one person to search teamliquids forums for the best maps, there are dozzens of gems in there..and learn / pirate them
or......just talk to iccup crew, they are really good at making maps and its your own stupid fault if you ignore them.
On January 07 2011 15:41 XXXSmOke wrote: Guys I know Idra is on EG...
But nobody in EG is in SKorea....
Ask yourself this
Should GOMTV be at the mercy of those who do not have practice partners???
I'm pretty sure gomtv has no plans to make their own maps (due to the same reasons as every other tournament organization). Hence it's up to blizzard and they also have no interest and expect tourneys to create maps.
It's a lose-lose situation thanks to bnet 2.0 (like all efforts of bnet 2.0).
Blizz - Custom maps are up to the tournaments
Tournaments (mlg/gomtv) - We cant use custom maps due to bnet 2.0 and alienating players due to requiring non ladder play.
You make a good point, there has got to be some way around this though. I hope one party or the other will eventully realize that this has got to change. Either Blizz will finally listen to the community and offer up new maps. Or GOMTV will try to pressure Blizz into changing things due to the short comings of the current problem. Who knows how long this will tkae tho TT
I quite like the maps themselves, however I hate the fact that they encourage all-ins and quick (generally boring) games. From a spectators point of view I dislike the maps, but from a players point of view they're fine. That said it would be nice to see some nice, larger and well balanced maps find their way into the pool every now and then.
EDIT: Also it seems to me that the GSL's 'bring out the all-in in everyone' (ok, maybe not quite everyone), few people want to play macro, they just want a win and they want it fast, question is would different maps change this?
I hate the map pool. For ladder play you can't thumb down all the horrible maps so you always might end up in something that's just bad.
And in general even the better maps; Metalopolis and Xel'naga are getting old and stagnant and only map I really like is Shakuras, but of course it got removed, hopefully only temporarily.
On January 07 2011 16:03 Phenny wrote: I quite like the maps themselves, however I hate the fact that they encourage all-ins and quick (generally boring) games. From a spectators point of view I dislike the maps, but from a players point of view they're fine. That said it would be nice to see some nice, larger and well balanced maps find their way into the pool every now and then.
EDIT: Also it seems to me that the GSL's 'bring out the all-in in everyone' (ok, maybe not quite everyone), few people want to play macro, they just want a win and they want it fast, question is would different maps change this?
They would change it every bit.
If you had two pros play on Iccup Fighting Spirit. Do you think the guy is gona 2 rax pull scv with a 50 second walk to the base. No. The "just want a win" is the perfect mentality for the competiveness of the tournament.
The map pool is just a disgrace for me, and I'm sure for many others who transitioned from BW to SC2. Seeing new maps come out and then be implemented both in OSL/MSL and on iccup really drove and in fact continues to drive the evolution of the metagame. With SC2, we are seeing gimmicky play on maps like Steppes of War, and it really is quite disappointing.
I'm certain Blizzard knows there's a problem, but they seem to be very content with just sitting on their ass and doing absolutely nothing. I don't mind if balance changes aren't made unless some strats prove to be blatantly imbalanced, which is not the case for SC2, but it is sad to see a developer known for making quality games just turn their back on spurring the community's efforts. I mean, did Blizzard ever take a lesson from War3's stagnant map pool? They need to be taking the lead with map making.
On January 07 2011 16:20 Starshaped wrote: Aren't there gonna be new maps with the next patch? They are remaking Plunder Isle from WC3 =)
And anyone who whines about the map-pool is generally an elitist SC player who wants every game to be a 5-base macro-fest.
anyone who whines about the map pool either is an EX bw player, watched bw, agrees with people who played bw, agrees with people who watched bw and anyone else with common sense.
those who are content about the map pool are completely ignorant or have the attention span of a half beaten retarded baby who was dropped twice at birth then was bathed in amonia every day till it was 3 before finally it was given a reprive of its poor life and stored in a cardboard box with air holes.
and tell me, how is remaking a map from wc3 (heavily micro based rts, as opposed to macro based like sc) going to dramaticly change how people view the map pool?
EDIT:
ps look at plunder isle THERE ARE 6 BASES IN TOTAL!!!!!!
its like jungle basin only without the side expansions and your natural is miles away from your main.
if they add that into the map pool. i fear that blizzard will lose ALL support.
On January 07 2011 16:20 Starshaped wrote: Aren't there gonna be new maps with the next patch? They are remaking Plunder Isle from WC3 =)
And anyone who whines about the map-pool is generally an elitist SC player who wants every game to be a 5-base macro-fest.
Some people are just sick of playing and watching the same maps. If you have played 1000+ games and watch streams and vods everyday, its getting really boring. I hope Blizz adds atleast 4 new maps to the ladder pool pretty soon (even if they are as small as the current ones, wich i dont hope). Atleast when chatchannels are out we will be able to find people to play some custom maps.
Well, lose all support by the handful of BW players. I'm sure 95% of players are fine with the pool. TL.net is notoriously "elitist" so any poll here doesn't really represent the community as a whole.
Edit: Yeah, sure, adding new maps is great. All I'm against is removing every small map and only playing on huge iccup maps. That would just kill SC2 for me.
Edit 2: Did they ever release Plunder Isle yet? Where can I see it? Anyone know?
I do agree a lot with this thread. The map pool is horrendous, and the fact that it hardly ever changes makes the game a lot more stale than it normally would be. It's not the ONLY problem, but it's definitely a big one.
I really really really hate how Blizzard is forcing the ladder to be only their awful maps. I wish they would allow the much better iCCup maps to be on the ladder, or at least implement new maps a lot more frequently.
you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
with the larva inject macro mechanic its impossible to make big maps without making zerg absurdly overpowered.
they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
with the larva inject macro mechanic its impossible to make big maps without making zerg absurdly overpowered.
they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
Good thing you play protoss where you can warp in units everywhere and you eliminate the advantage of travel time in countering.
The only two maps that are interesting are cross positions Shakuras and Zel Naga Caverns. I think even cross positions Metal and Lost Temple are both pretty boring to watch games on because everything is funneled through just a big middle area. There's little dynamics like some of the best BW maps.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
with the larva inject macro mechanic its impossible to make big maps without making zerg absurdly overpowered.
they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
with the larva inject macro mechanic its impossible to make big maps without making zerg absurdly overpowered.
they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
This should NOT be a reason to ignore the awful maps, though.
Yes, Blizzard has been balancing SC2 around maps like Delta Quadrant and Steppes. Yes, things will probably have to be rebalanced to work better with larger maps. But that is a LOT better than having to play on these terrible maps all the time.
So just because a race might be better or worse on larger maps, should NOT be a reason to not include larger maps and keep SC2 in the dark ages. One step at a time. First maps. Then balance accordingly.
I feel like a broken record saying this, but the map pool is absolutely horrendous. I said this from the beginning of beta but still wanted to give some time to see how the game panned out before sticking with it, but it seems like features of BW maps are also a must have for the current SC2 maps, those being: -Large maps (~30 second rush distances. real time. not in game time.) -Naturals that can be easily secured (i.e. a choke point).
Right now, the only map that even falls into this category is Shakuras, which is still stupid on close ground positions because of the backdoor rocks in your main. Lost temple is another example of this but close ground positions play out in a really stupid manner and cliff drops are incredibly tough to deal with as zerg (not saying siegable nats are OP, but I feel like roaches should be able to hit any units on the high ground).
Sure, in both SC2 and BW, 1 base play can be exciting. But when all-in 1 base play is the standard (GSL3), it's incredibly boring as a spectator, and over all a bad thing for E-sports. Blizzard truly needs to make purely macro maps. Look how fucking amazing MC vs Rain on Lost Temple was. We need more games like that, and that will only be achieved on macro maps, not absurdly tiny garbage maps like steppes of war or impossible to defend natural garbage maps that have no choke point (every map except shakuras and lost temple).
Hopefully GOM realizes this and makes their own maps which then become the standard, otherwise I foresee the momentum behind SC2 fading away within the next year or so.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
Zerg wasn't the only race to get a macro ability. Protoss still can chronoboost probes. With bigger maps and easy to secure naturals, we'll see protoss taking incredibly early nexuses and constant probe chronoboost. Which will allow for the protoss to have an economy that can compete with Zerg. That's not to say that some balance won't take place. But it's better to have a game balanced around intense macro based play than 1 base all-ins.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
The same concept will still apply with bigger maps that apply now. There will be crucial timings where you can pressure the zerg so he makes something other than drones. This pressure could allow you to even snipe his 3rd base, but this is all just pure theory crafting so instead of theory crafting we should actually add some solid macro maps to the pool, because right now the only true macro maps (in my eyes) are Shakuras and Lost Temple (with not close ground spawning spots)
bad maps produce bad games, bad games produce lost interest. a bad map pool is the biggest problem i have with the game at this point. just another of the million map threads where i'll say this, and while i hate to just keep posting the same things, it needs to keep being said until something is done about it.
Hi all, sorry to interrupt, just passing by. I dont play SC2, but, does anyone go and complain at the official Blizzard forums instead of here? If you guys make a thread at Blizzard forums, it will be noticed easier and at least help them to realise their mistakes(stagnant map pool).
On January 07 2011 17:47 Black[CAT] wrote: Hi all, sorry to interrupt, just passing by. I dont play SC2, but, does anyone go and complain at the official Blizzard forums instead of here? If you guys make a thread at Blizzard forums, it will be noticed easier and at least help them to realise their mistakes(stagnant map pool).
there are threads about this issue in all bnet forums. they get ignored tho.
also blizz kinda reads TL and no one likes visiting bnet forums which are just terrible in evry aspect.
just gonna say again that i agree on the map thing. wrote a thread myself about this like 6+months ago and we now are pretty much exactly in the situation i talked about back then ~
The idea behind the current map pool is that Blizzard wants us to have a diverse ladder experience. If we play 10 games, some should be quick, some should be long, and some in the middle. The current pool does accomplish that, but by doing this Blizzard is ignoring the fact that the ladder pool is closely tied to tournament pools. They really need to step it up and quit ignoring this. There are a ton of solutions, but most of it boils down to a larger and more balanced map pool, and really this just means bigger maps.
I think an ideal solution might be a much larger map pool, and they make a "training" matchmaking system where you can veto as many maps as you want, and it matches you against other players based on your main ladder score. The ladder is left unchanged, and players without a team can still get good practice in on the maps of their choice.
i don't hate the map pool(as long as i downvote the awful ones) i just find it so BORING playing the same maps over and over
we need more new maps in the pool, and for pete sake add some community maps or some shit i can almost forgive if they were imbalanced as fuck, i just wanna ladder with some new maps
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: you want bigger maps right? and how is balance going to ensue then?? zerg in starcraft 1 had to build hatcheries to get a lot of production, but queens destroyed this concept.
Zerg wasn't the only race to get a macro ability. Protoss still can chronoboost probes. With bigger maps and easy to secure naturals, we'll see protoss taking incredibly early nexuses and constant probe chronoboost. Which will allow for the protoss to have an economy that can compete with Zerg. That's not to say that some balance won't take place. But it's better to have a game balanced around intense macro based play than 1 base all-ins.
Terran have the ability to create additional OCs, as well. We've already seen this used even with the short rush distances with the 4OC build, so it doesn't seem unlikely that T would at least start taking an early 3rd OC in base if the rush distance extended.
On January 07 2011 16:51 Falcon_NL wrote: they will wait till you leave your base and they have time enough to make a huge army till you finaly get there. even when they wait till you are halfway the map.
The same concept will still apply with bigger maps that apply now. There will be crucial timings where you can pressure the zerg so he makes something other than drones. This pressure could allow you to even snipe his 3rd base, but this is all just pure theory crafting so instead of theory crafting we should actually add some solid macro maps to the pool, because right now the only true macro maps (in my eyes) are Shakuras and Lost Temple (with not close ground spawning spots)
XelNaga and long spawns on Metal can both be very macro-heavy as well.
I don't think Blizzard screwed up THAT badly with the map pool. If they were just a little bigger and LT wasn't such a cliffdrop paradise I would be satisfied.
On January 07 2011 12:49 SonKiE wrote: the iccup maps blow dick for sc2
User was warned for this post
This is actually a good post, what i mean is that this is the problem with the whole map situation: we dont agree what we actually want.
Everyone complains about the maps, but then when someone tries to make different maps this is the general attitude they get. ICCUP are the only people who have tried to offer BW esque maps to the people and many rejected the maps.
Blizzard gave the community the best tools to make maps, and while everyone, their mother and their dog is complaining about the maps, few people have actually taken it upon them to create said maps for competitive play.
At least 50% (roughly) did not like the ICCUP maps, at least in the thread that was made, i challange anyone on TL to create 1 map for SC2 that would get the majority approval.
We agree what we dont want
We do not agree on what we do want
EDIT: Im not promoting the guys quote (who got warned) im basically saying that if that is the attitude of certain parts of the community, why would anyone put time and effort into maps and get told that it "blows dicks"? Criticism is fine if its constructive, but as seen time and time again you wont get much of that, you will get plenty of "your map is ****, gtfo!".
blizzard ill make it easy for ya on how to make map
1. Good size. -enough for a macro game and a little riskier for a rush. Maps like xelnaga or shakuras size allows for that but it doesnt mean you cant rush on it. Imagine if sow was a lot bigger. It will actually be a good map
2. Symetrical - why should you be in a advtantage or disadvantage on where you spawn? Seriously maps like delta, lost, metal, and even scrap station have some sort of bad spots. I want it to be fair and balance from the begiinning plz. Why lost temple didnt work in bw is the same in sc2.
If you just fixed these things the maps overall will better.
Blizzard wants to support e-sports, they want to become it bigger. The maps are a huge faktor. Right now some maps simply are not good for fair competition games, SoW anyone? Release maps with more open space, release bigger maps, listen to the community, maps are the 2nd most important thing for this game besides balancing, do it now and not 5 months later!
The map pool is good as of current, Blizzard has to continually cycle new maps in and out though, or the metagame will even out and stop evolving over time, similar to what happened with Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. That game stayed alive for longer than it would have though due to balance patches shifting how players played. Now that those have ceased (to the best of my knowledge) War 3 is really starting to lose masses of players at a fast rate and very few tournaments are actively being held. An underground community will always support it though.
The map pool in Starcraft 2 is fine for now as we are still seeing innovation and new tactics daily. Every patch shakes things up as well, watch as 1.2 comes out next week and shakes up the meta, I expect to see more use of Phoenixes and Hallucinations.
On January 07 2011 19:27 Willes wrote: Blizzard wants to support e-sports, they want to become it bigger. The maps are a huge faktor. Right now some maps simply are not good for fair competition games, SoW anyone? Release maps with more open space, release bigger maps, listen to the community, maps are the 2nd most important thing for this game besides balancing, do it now and not 5 months later!
Actually maps are more important than (race)balance or at least as important. Maps determine (race)balance.
blizzard don't want to put in bigger maps with easy 3rd bases which cover one entrance which lead into your natural and main. where middle ground control matters if you want a 4th or 5th base because it's too hard for lower league noobs to handle. also zerg OP as the map gets bigger.
the op speaks the truth. I dont watch GSL anymore except for foreigners and from Semifinals on, and my motivation in playing has dwindled so bad that I have played a mere 15-20 ladder games in the 2 weeks christmas break. Some maps are still ok, but unfortunately most maps range somewhere between bad and plain disgusting. Blizz obviously designed a ton of those maps with 13 y/os in mind who have an attention span of 10 minutes tops. The maps are so stupid that some strategies are almost unstoppable on certain maps even if the opponent knows whats coming. For example I have only lost a single friggin game on Blistering against terran in like the last 3 months, only using a single allin. Thats like 40-1. And if ppl tell me I should do smth else on Blistering "for fun" they dont get the point of playing a competetive RTS on ladder. Its not fun to play inferior strategies there, If I want to do that I play custom maps or 3on3 with mass blings or stuff like that.
I remember that blizzard officialy stated that the Ladder map pool will evolve sloly as they want to keep the map 'simple' ( read, accessible to bronze players).
Now, if 1.2 does not bring a whole batch of new maps, I hope that tournament organizers are going to step up and include custom maps in their map pool. I really hope that TSL 3 will include custom maps if 1.2 doesnt bring any new good maps. The fact that they removed all the "bad" maps from the TL Open map pool is a good sign
On January 07 2011 19:48 Tyrran wrote: I remember that blizzard officialy stated that the Ladder map pool will evolve sloly as they want to keep the map 'simple' ( read, accessible to bronze players).
what a stubborn statement. A bronze play won't be harmed by complex maps. Map design does matter in higher leagues, not in lower, because low level players have limited capability to exploit map advantages :-D They want it to be simple to serve spectators.
As a bad-player myself I don't feel either map is clearly favored over other however I hear a lot of complains about it so I guess it's kinda true :-). However I'm pretty anxious to see some new maps, I don't have much trouble reading maps so I always love new maps :D
There's tournaments out there that are trying to bring forth user made maps and trying to show Blizzard that their maps are not that good. Yet these don't seem to get as much love from the community that they deserve. So before you make another reply on another thread like this one, cause there's been millions of them, check out the link below and try helping out instead of nagging about it.
On January 07 2011 19:48 Tyrran wrote: I remember that blizzard officialy stated that the Ladder map pool will evolve sloly as they want to keep the map 'simple' ( read, accessible to bronze players).
what a stubborn statement. A bronze play won't be harmed by complex maps. Map design does matter in higher leagues, not in lower, because low level players have limited capability to exploit map advantages :-D They want it to be simple to serve spectators.
I agree with that. Wouldn't it be even more imbalanced if someone in bronze finds out that he can cliff drop on LT? None of the Bronze players would know how to respond to this.
The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible.
On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote: The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible.
I agree with this, it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote: The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible.
I don't agree with that. If it's true that Zerg outmacroes the other races so hard on bigger maps and is so weak on smaller maps, then I don't think you consider balance in putting in a few small and a few big maps, because then EVERY map is in fact imbalanced.
If Zerg really is that strong and outmacroes other races in the late game (although I don't quite agree with that), I wouldn't mind getting bigger maps and buffing the other races lategames, because it's still Macro games that I like to play the most and that are most entertaining to watch. And I believe many people would agree here.
I agree with this, it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
Just reducing the maximum amout of larva per Hatchery would pretty much nerf Zerg late game a lot.
What's sad is that as long as Blizzard sticks to the belief that there should be "variety" in the map pool we will always be stuck with weak maps. Blizz's philosophy of catering to both casuals and serious players needs to stop; pick a side and stick with it.
On January 07 2011 20:57 ForTheDr3am wrote: Some maps in the map pool are pretty good (LT, Meta, Shakuras, Xel Naga), some are horrible (Blistering, Steppes, DQ).
And all are getting slightly boring after such a long time...
On January 07 2011 17:47 Black[CAT] wrote: Hi all, sorry to interrupt, just passing by. I dont play SC2, but, does anyone go and complain at the official Blizzard forums instead of here? If you guys make a thread at Blizzard forums, it will be noticed easier and at least help them to realise their mistakes(stagnant map pool).
Bnet forums are tedious to read through. There's a lot of garbage posts/threads to wade through before you get to the read-worthy stuff. Unlike here where the garbage is filtered out by mods.
Which is good because Blizz apparently does read TL. But it all goes down to how serious BLizz is in the growth of SC2 as an esport.
On January 07 2011 20:57 ForTheDr3am wrote: Some maps in the map pool are pretty good (LT, Meta, Shakuras, Xel Naga), some are horrible (Blistering, Steppes, DQ).
And all are getting slightly boring after such a long time...
LT is one of the most imbalanced maps in the game in close spawns zvt.
On January 07 2011 21:00 e4e5nf3 wrote: What's sad is that as long as Blizzard sticks to the belief that there should be "variety" in the map pool we will always be stuck with weak maps. Blizz's philosophy of catering to both casuals and serious players needs to stop; pick a side and stick with it.
Hmm, I like that they cater to both but using different maps in (some) tourneys would be nice. Also some new ones in the ladder pool would be excellent to prevent boredom/repetition.
On January 07 2011 10:46 bennyaus wrote: I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now. As Tasteless said last night, nerds will never be happy, "Why isn't this perfect??!?!".
This is always the reason for anything that's bad with sc2; the custom popularity is broken. Well, the game is new! The map pool ruins the macro, well the game is new! No chat channels? Well would a new game really have that?!
I don't see the situation like that. Bliz has so many years experience with their rts games that they of course should use. The situation is miles from when bliz released sc1, and to compare the situation is imo not a valid excuse to some of the problems in sc2
keeping maps simple for bronzeplayers is a poor argument lol
bronzeplayers play against bronzeplayers, the important point on maps is: looks it good, is it balanced, show me a map a bronzeplayer plays and has no fun with it because its so "advanced".
they still can vote down the maps they dont like, but putting in bad maps like SoW because bronzeplayers can play it more easily sounds stupid to me
On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote: The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible.
it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
Yep, I've felt like this for a while. It's not necessarily impossible to be balanced, but you have to make a lot of concessions (like on maps) when one race's unbounded worker production is so far ahead of the others. The spawn larva mechanic means that very large maps will never be balanced.
I agree with this, it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
Just reducing the maximum amout of larva per Hatchery would pretty much nerf Zerg late game a lot.
The issue isn't the late game zerg being able to remax, the issue is as the game progresses through the mid game if a map is larger than say... cross spawn metalopolis, with a rush distance like 1.5x that, its just completely hopeless to be able to keep up with the amount of drones able to be squeezed in. Protoss can keep up abit better with chronoboost and safely opening 15 nexus on a large map, but Terran MULE doesn't quite translate the same way spawn larva/chronoboost does, as well due to mechanics Terran doesn't benefit from 15 cc the way the other races do (Benefit from 15hatch/15nexus) because you actually delay your first OC so much.
I apologize for being cynical here, but I've come to assume that every decision made by post-2007 Blizzard is about the bottom line. That doesn't preclude Blizzard from making decisions that vastly improve the game, but it's money first. I don't understand what Blizzard has to gain monetarily by sabotaging the quality of their level design in order to appease newer players. What, do they actually think newer players will be turned off from the game if a series of wide-open maps designed for macro play turn the Silver League into "Battlecruiser wars"? And if the company is really that concerned that integrating custom maps into the ladder pool is going to harm the game, then why in God's name did they build the game around the "chokepoint -> natural expansion" model that the most dedicated members of the community decided was the proper way to play Starcraft? I can give you the answer: Blizzard didn't think the game could be successful without the long-term Brood War audience accepting the game. So why the hell is the company holding back on this issue?
Blizzard don't know how to make maps and I said it countless times on this forum Another aspect we can consider is that you can't talk race imbalances unless you have a fairly good map. In SC:BW, for example, if you had maps with no chokes Zerg would be overpowered ..... and so on.
Blizzard should admit that they suck at creating maps. Blizzard should hire/collaborate with people who helped this game grow by creating competitive maps(i keep thinking of iCCup members here). After constantly talking with the community, then you get a sense of what a reasonable map should look like, then work on the balancing of races and units.
i like the map pool as the maps are really different from each other, so lots of different things you can do, you will mostly never see them as most people are like "ugh hate this map -> cheese." And since this Ugh is race specific, so each race hate other maps. Almost all of the maps will revolve around one side trying to end it quick. So the most fun matchups are either mirrors on a favored map, or maps that are not favoring both the races. As people will be more likely to play right in this case (unless they hate the match up).
And i don't think Blizzard would mind if people start their own ladder, there are enough maps and enough people as it seems. And if they would mind you won't know unless you try.
They are currently balancing the game/ working on the bnet and when you change game mechanics you don't want to change maps obviously. So guess they go after that what people cry the most for. (I hate the ramp change by the way, you could even programm the editor to check if that starting location has a zerg and then add a non buildable but walkable doodad to that ramp, now that they fix this that way, people will never get the idea when building their own maps to add something to the ramp so that walling in is a bit more complicated and will take another building giving more attack space to early lings etc.)
Map pool is the reason I haven't laddered for 6 weeks. Haven't really played 1v1 customs with people either. Mostly obs these days.
Maps are going to be hard to balance because bigger sizes will always favor P and Z (warp-in mechanic instant reinforce and large distance allowing for multiple injects on the farthest position) and smaller maps will favor T in most regards and just lead to cheese and 1 base allins. Also bigger maps favor Z too much because of how fast their units are - obviously as the map size increases, the timing windows will become bigger even.
I think T needs some viable late game units - i.e. making mech viable in tvp again and making BC not a joke unit.
On January 07 2011 20:37 iEchoic wrote: The problem is that the map size is very strongly tied to game balance, moreso than any RTS I've ever played in my life. This is because zerg can massively out-macro both other races when not pressured, and the ability to pressure decreases with larger map size.
If every map was as large or larger than shakuras plateau, Z would be horrendously OP. We actually kind of need stuff like DQ, LT, etc because they force the game to be balanced.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but it's a necessary evil and the game will need to be massively revamped before better maps are possible.
it just starts to feel like the spawn larva mechanic is almost impossible to balance around.
Yep, I've felt like this for a while. It's not necessarily impossible to be balanced, but you have to make a lot of concessions (like on maps) when one race's unbounded worker production is so far ahead of the others. The spawn larva mechanic means that very large maps will never be balanced.
I agree and I also thing Warpgate has the same kind of impact on larger maps. I would love to see these mechanics changed so things became a lot slower early on and balanced. I mean Lings are nerfed because of spawn larvae and that has had a massive impact on the whole zerg race.
They need to implement a system that custom melee maps can qualify for the ladder. Maybe hold a map making contest, people can try them out and vote maps in and out of the pool on a bi monthly basis.
blizzard seems to have confused the concept that if they like the game the way it is it's actually good. Im pretty sure the guys who make the mediocre video games that ridiculous Australian yatzhee laughs at think their game is good.
we're married to ladder because it's the best (right now) way we have to play against people of "equal" skill. the community is too large to just have pubs be filled with good players (yes it happens in small games) and too young to have esea or #findscrim.
a real tournament needs to use the iccup maps just so we can see what happens. just as an experiment. or maybe a weekly tournament like craftcup.
I agree 1000% percent with you OP. The maps now don't really suck, but a lot of them are imbalanced, getting way too old now and the game itself with no new maps is beginning to get stagnant.
Also with only 10 maps for 1v1 there isn't much choice and with the way bnet 2.0 works now its impossible for players to add new maps themselves. Since tournament organization is crap now because there is no LAN and there are still no better ways to communicate(cough, cough, chat channels) there are no tournaments that can and willing to use different maps).
Not to mention that these new maps have to be tested to see if they are balanced!
On January 07 2011 22:26 FeyFey wrote: and i don't think Blizzard would mind if people start their own ladder, there are enough maps and enough people as it seems. And if they would mind you won't know unless you try.
Of course they mind it, with stuff like the marketplace coming up they want to keep you in bnet2.
There are so many problems with hosting tournaments with custom maps people dont seem to realize how hard it is.
First: In open tournaments it is downright impossible because 100 people asking how to find the map is a bitch. It can be alleviated a bit by making a better way to search for a map.
Second: Practice on those maps will be downright impossible at the moment and still hard for most after getting chat channels.
Third: Players are conservative at heart. New maps will inevitably lead to imbalance-claims which you dont really need as a host of a tournament and even though certain maps in the current mappool are imbalanced people are used to them and dont complain as much about it.
Fourth: To alleviate third point a bit you have to evaluate the maps which is timeconsuming and an extra burden. Most likely the regional block is hurting your choises.
The fact is: Untill chat channels are open its downright impossible, after that time it is timeconsuming and a nightmare because of how custom games are sorted at the moment. If they make an amazing search-method for custom games it is still stomped by regional split and a still very unintuitive mapmaker and "developmentprocess".
Although larger macro maps would be nicer, I'm kind of fan of maps like stepps of war because they force a totally different playstyle out of players even if it's cheesy. Although I much perfer the idea of a small map in a tournament situtation over a ladder situation as it can be the saving grace for a player about to be knocked out, where as on ladder it's a cheese fest.
Ladder means nothing, it is only a practice tool for tournaments and fun for casual players. This game is purely about the competition and tournys.
There are loads of good custom maps out there, and tournaments are allowed to use them - so how is it Blizzard's fault?
It is the tournament hosts that need to take the initiative and make, or deligate, custom maps to host their tournaments on.
I agree that maps can decide results at every level, however the point is these maps were a base-line to set ball rolling, and the editing tool was there for players, gamers and fans to improve and expand to suit their needs.
On January 07 2011 11:19 zerglingsfolife wrote: It was so sad that TSL3 did not include at least one iccup map. I thought teamliquid might set a good example.
I know that they aren't on the ladder, but you've got to start somewhere.
the best way to get customs is to have every tournament, big and small to start using custom maps in their tourneys. There needs to be a good map pool, a pool that is figured out by the top SC2 players and is recognized by other tournaments. Once this is done and chat channels are introduced, people who are interested in playing in tournaments should make games through chat that use these maps. Don't ladder, just do customs with people in chat and with practice partners, eventually we'll see good maps in SC2 again, but not through blizzard.
If Blizzcon rolls around, then go ladder for that if you think you can do it, but if even small tourneys agree with big tourneys to use the same custom maps in their pools, then we'd see everyone playing them.
I`m a long time TL reader, who finally registered to state that I totally agree with the OP. The mappool is just terrible as it is right now. When you take a look at the games of this GSL season, most of them were dull and boring. The few games that were fun to watch where mostly played on Shakuras, which happens to be the biggest map in the pool. Boxer vs Hyperdub comes to mind...
One of the big problems in my opinion is the way how non Blizzard maps are handled right now. There are some cool maps out there, but it's really hard to find opponents to play on them. With most of the TL community disliking the current mappool, why don't we try to make a change for the better. TL has a big and loyal community and therefore it has quite some power.
Why don't we start a feature like "TL map of the week" where we appoint 1 custom map ( an ICCUP map for example) to be our map of the week? It would be so much easier to find players for this map and after a while there could be a poll to decide which maps are the best. The winner could even be used in one of the TL tourneys to further increase its popularity.
Maybe it's time to take the whole map problem in our own hands, because Blizzard clearly isn't willing or capable of doing so.
I hate the map pool with the entirety of my body and soul but tournaments suddenly starting to use better, custom maps has been discussed to death - if GOM or Blizzard doesn't do it it just won't happen. Players don't want to have to practice for 20 maps which is what will happen unless the initiative comes from Blizzard and horrible maps get thrown away completely.
On January 08 2011 00:01 barth wrote: I hate the map pool with the entirety of my body and soul but tournaments suddenly starting to use better, custom maps has been discussed to death - if GOM or Blizzard doesn't do it it just won't happen. Players don't want to have to practice for 20 maps which is what will happen unless the initiative comes from Blizzard and horrible maps get thrown away completely.
The professional BW scene built itself from the ground up, which meant that the maps developed with it. Blizzard is trying to impose an SC2 scene from the top down, so their maps are the standard and change has to come from Blizzard first.
Man how fucking dumb has to be Blizzard to not FUCKING REALIZE how terrbile the map pool is, i mean WTF?! There are tons of threads about this subject and they still dont give a fuck? It's really painfull to watch this shit happenin...
Yeah i agree with most people here in this thread. The mappool ist just terrible, the best map is Shakuras Plateau. Unfortunately Blizzard removed it temporarily due to the "hidden pylon bug". All the other maps are too small in my opinion. I mean yes, Lost Temple and Metalopolis are not that bad, but if you spawn close it's like Steppes of War, which is a terrible map. We need more maps like Tau Cross or Destination, but not only for usage in tournaments but also in the official ladder mappool. I didn't play or watch BW that much, but was there any 4 player map where you could spawn close like on LT or Metal? If i remember correctly, that's not the case.
I also agree completely with the OP and I am at my wits end. It just isn't fun watching this game at all anymore. I think this is a watershed moment for SC2 and if a transition isn't made to much larger and more well thought out community made maps... well I don't see SC2 sticking around for much longer.
In my opinion the map pool needs more large maps such as shakuras. A problem for me is that when laddering as a zerg, all terrans and protosses seem to thumb down the bigger maps for easy wins, giving me only zvz on LT, meta, shakuras.
On January 07 2011 10:41 Endymion wrote: Personally, I laugh when I see steppes of war in a tournament's map pool. And then I cry on ladder because i can't thumbs down temple, steppes, delta, and jungle all at the same time. It makes Starcraft a very emotional game for me.
There are possibilities that we share the same brain...
OT: I personally don't want Blizzard to make new maps. And then you ask me "BUT WHY?" To what I answer : because if the community is not happy about the maps, it will take FOREEEEEEVER to see it changed. The map pool should be more controled by community map makers. The game would need a maptesting matchmaking system, the accessibility of ladder, without any points, and players can give comments on the maps or get directed to a website forums to give comments etc. There, the map maker runs his thread (the very same way it's working here) and once the map is finalized it appears in the ladder map pool and tournaments can use it too (instantly, like when shakuras just vanished, except we get a new map instead of losing one). With the rate at which I see new maps poping up in the forums here, I'm pretty convinced we can get AT LEAST 2 to 3 new maps every month. Eventually blizzard would make a little in-game poll where players get to vote for the 1 or 2 maps they dislike the most, and those get kicked out of the pool for rotation purpose so we dont end up with a 50+ map pool in a year.
That way all blizzard has to do is put the finished maps in the ladder pool, and run a poll to see which one has to go out. In the news when we open the game it would be fairly easy to put stuff in there to point people in the right direction for information and SC2 community stuff such as TL so things go smooth and easy. It would give the community more fun stuff to do, get more implicated, and help improve SC2 and esports in general.
In my opinion all matchups are already perfectly balanced with winrates between 46% and 54% on all maps and that is the reason why Blizzard doesn't publish map statistics. It's simply not worth the effort to publish them just to confirm everyone the perfect balance.
I can't understand why Blizzard would lock down custom games and then do such a terrible job with the maps. What is their incentive? Will more people buy the game with Blizzard taking control of 3rd party maps? Maybe they're just afraid of another DOTA + Spin-off games making money (although this attracts more attention to the original game itself... how many people bought wc3 just for dota?)
I'm indifferent towards the maps (I understand strategies involving them, have a lot of other things to work on in my play). Just hate to see all these user-stifling changes without any benefits.
On January 08 2011 01:57 Lawdy wrote: it's like they absolutely don't care in the slightest.
this is correct
which has been stated before by them at blizzcon
Blizzard is not going to be making competitive maps (as they have said)
Blizzard will not be including custom maps on ladder play
Hence we are stuck with this Map Pool until Heart of The swarm
Hence SC2 is just something I don't care about anymore and I'm sure many other people feel the same way and have stopped playing / watching and won't be getting expos. I'm pretty sure even blizz employees probably stopped caring when they had to take orders from activision.
As a player who plays just for fun I don't completely hate the Map Pool they don't seem balanced very well, but they are pretty fun overall. But for the Competitive scene the Map Pool is atrocious. If Blizzard truly wants to make Starcraft 2 as big as Starcraft 1 in Korea, the current maps will just not cut it. Its easier said then done just BAM and maps are fixed. But so far it seems like they haven't even done much to try and fix them. The only good map they took out of the ladder lol.
They did do a good job adding Shakuras though, hope they keep going in that direction.
On January 08 2011 02:05 Barett wrote: Its easier said then done just BAM and maps are fixed.
Why not? They have DOZENS of good maps made by fans which would offer them gladly to them if they included them in the ladder/in tournaments. And I hope, if they ever put Shakuras back into the map-pool, that they remove the backrocks. But that will never happen anyway.
1. Shakuras was definitely removed because of the pylon block. I'm sure it will only be temporary until they fix the bug.
2. Blizzard has always had crap maps on their ladder, bit it BW or WC3. As much as we want them to adopt custom maps, their history has pointed to a strong stubbornness towards changes in their official map pools.
3. Not all of Blizzard's maps are bad. Metalopolis, Xel Naga Caverns, and Shakuras Plateau are generally accepted to be pretty decent maps, especially compared to the other maps. They are most akin to BW's large, macro-style maps, and consequently, they produce epic macro games.
4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
5. With the coming release of chat channels, it should be MUCH easier to play on custom melee maps. I'm sure the iCCup or TL channels will be full of people asking each other for games on custom maps, which is much better than waiting 10 minutes for someone to join in the conventional custom map menu or finding friends to practice against.
They need to rotate a new map into the map pool every week and rotate an old map out. There's quite a few custom iccup maps that are pretty decent and a bunch of blizz maps that haven't made it into the pool.
I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
that map looks awesome!
the maps need to rotate more of course, maybe they are scared of imbalance? iccup and others out there know their shit and a lot of these teams have tested out everything to iron out imbalance. blizzard certainly does need to interact with the community not simply 'listening' to it because everyone is just shrouded with doubt about their effectiveness.
I don't mind the current maps, besides 1 or 2 that I just veto. The problem is that for those that play a lot, it get a little repetitive. My fingers are crossed that the new patch will provide a few new maps for some better variety. I think keeping the most popular maps in the ladder and rotating the less popular in and out would be reasonable.
4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
I think that map has too many unnecessary paths but it still looks better than certain maps that are in the current map pool.
Indifferent, maybe its just me having another mindset about the whole issue but seeing the same maps played much has Never been a problem for me. BUT, i feel like we need bigger maps in addition to those we have.
Crossfire isn't unreleased, you can play it in custom games, its not bad. What you guys don't realize is that in BW, the original Blizzard maps were the only things used in events for the first 2-3 years of the game. It wasn't until Korean SC got big and the tournament orgs hired their own mapmakers that custom, more balanced/good maps started coming out.
The map pool is totally retarded and I'm still raging over no Shakuras. It was literally the best map that pretty much everyone agreed on yet they aren't making an effort to add more maps like it, nor are they fixing the damn bug and re-adding it. The war3 map pool was relatively dynamic, I expect a complete overhaul of the map pool after the ladder reset... every map besides Shakuras and XNC should probably just be removed and replaced. Maybe LT could be kept because it's a classic and all.
On January 08 2011 01:55 TotalBiscuit wrote: I propose nothing but Worldship for the next 3 months in all organised tournaments and custom-games. It will surely end well!
I would like you to be on Blizzards mapmaking team. They surely need some more crunch. I only want worldship in the mappool if it comes with trees, hearts, colours and biscuid. Total mayham basically!
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
The maps are repetitive and uninteresting; leading to similar games....
The new editor is so powerful, and we saw how much the development of new tournament maps lead to the growth of SC:BW. Blizz, please let user created maps be involved in the league maps!
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Which also brings us to a point that random, community BW remakes are infinitely better than bullshit Blizzard comes up with.
Yeah was just about to post this. I find it hilarious that the original guy was praising blizzard for making a nice map and it's really taken from the BW map makers.
would you rather have blizzard working on game balance/coding or to work on maps? IMHO ide rather they get balance issues fixed and finished before they take a look at their current maps, future maps they make should be balanced properly thought maybe they should take some of the iccup creators ideas...they at least make pretty balanced maps
I just miss Shakuras. I assume they are bringing it back after they fix the bug. That was instantly my favorite map because it actually has a reasonable rush distance.
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Which also brings us to a point that random, community BW remakes are infinitely better than bullshit Blizzard comes up with.
Yeah was just about to post this. I find it hilarious that the original guy was praising blizzard for making a nice map and it's really taken from the BW map makers.
It is a poor remake. Tanks can shoot into your natural mineral line very easily.
I think GOM needs to figure out they have to rotate the maps more and make them larger to avoid the amount of cheese. I remember back in BW I loved it when I saw cheese builds. It simply broke up the monotony of seeing 50 minute long macro matches. Now in SC2 I get excited to see long drawn out macro battles.
I think based on the popularity of the GSL in Korea that the viewers are getting bored of seeing basically the same game over and over and over.
I think if we want to see GOM themselves do something about this we should go post it to their forums. They won't take notice nearly as much if it's posted here.
Looking at the GOMtv forums right now... you would think that the biggest gripe people have is the observer moving the camera angle during a battle. There's no mention of people wanting new maps anywhere there. Please post there!
Were comming on 1 year and almost no change in the pool. GSL needs to take the step and add custom maps, no one else has the power to affect change on a big enough scale. Except blizzard of course but thats not gunna happen, and if it did they maps would prob still be bad.
Map race imbalances are ok but no positional imbalances are not, Blizzard doesnt even seen to notice stuff in their own maps. Like no airspace behind minerals on half the map but tons of flying space on the other. Or maps where you can cannon peoples minerals or do funky wall ins, but only if you spawn in the right places.
On January 08 2011 03:41 LarJarsE wrote: The maps are repetitive and uninteresting; leading to similar games....
The new editor is so powerful, and we saw how much the development of new tournament maps lead to the growth of SC:BW. Blizz, please let user created maps be involved in the league maps!
Its not like Blizzard forbids the use of custom maps lol. The problem is that B.Net 0.2 SUCKS BIG TIME . How can any open tournament use custom maps if the participating players have no easy means to get games on them for training ?. Thats the only reason why Gom is using the Ladder maps. Blizzard needs to add sth like custom ladders.
Tbh I dont get it why Gom didnt use custom maps for the Code S even Code A. Since anybody is in a team anyways .... Oh well I just dont want to see another 5min games with 2-Rax on Meta close position and idiots crying about Z being greedy and going for eco cheese rofl *rage*
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Which also brings us to a point that random, community BW remakes are infinitely better than bullshit Blizzard comes up with.
Yeah was just about to post this. I find it hilarious that the original guy was praising blizzard for making a nice map and it's really taken from the BW map makers.
I didn't know it was a remake. Mind = blown. No wonder it seems like such a good map. It looks like a pretty good remake, from what I can tell. Definitely one of the best looking BW to SC2 conversions I've seen. I'm quite interested to see what games on this map would look like.
Maybe Blizzard should stick to just remaking BW maps lol.
Ugh. I accidentally double posted by clicking the "quote" link lol.
Anyways, I think Blizzard is being a bit reluctant on changing maps due to their stance on having a "wide variety" of games on the ladder. The large macro maps are fine. It's mainly the small maps with troublesome rush distances and/or bad layout that are causing troubles in the forums.
For leagues lower than diamond, I think the current map pool is fine. It may encourage cheese, but with more cheese comes a better opportunity to practice defending against cheese.
I really hope Blizzard is much more dynamic with their map pool when dealing with the Grandmaster league. Up in those nosebleed-inducing ranks will be the cream of the crop players who will most likely be competing in the tournaments that we all so dearly love. Having a healthy map variety in the Grandmaster league would thus encourage tournaments to start using better maps.
On January 08 2011 02:40 Xeris wrote: Crossfire isn't unreleased, you can play it in custom games, its not bad. What you guys don't realize is that in BW, the original Blizzard maps were the only things used in events for the first 2-3 years of the game. It wasn't until Korean SC got big and the tournament orgs hired their own mapmakers that custom, more balanced/good maps started coming out.
Give Blizzard time O_O!
Its a point thats been made before, but why do we have to wait? It isnt like the release of sc2 killed off all of the bw map makers like some bizzarro horror film. They're still out there, and still making good bw maps.
The main problem is that blizzards stance is that they dont care about the map pool, and want us to do something. The only problem is that tourney's wont make new map pools without those maps being on ladder so people can get practice. and blizz hasn't changed ladder for better at all. Its a vicious cycle that starts and ends with blizz.
How would bronze players hate large maps? They wouldn't die to pathetic "rushes" at 10 mins into the game, and could instead mass 200/200 3/3 t3 air armies against each other like they love doing.
Looks like the best solution to the problem at hand would be letting the iCCup Mapmaking Team take over the ladder map pool. Getting the team there is another thing.
On January 08 2011 05:06 DarthXX wrote: How would bronze players hate large maps? They wouldn't die to pathetic "rushes" at 10 mins into the game, and could instead mass 200/200 3/3 t3 air armies against each other like they love doing.
Maybe that would become boring after a while too. I remember a noobish friend of mine back in BW complaining about the ICCUP maps being too big. To him, there seemed to be an overabundance of resources, making it unnecessary to fight over expansions. I can well imagine that beginners might feel lost on big maps if there's too much space for them to use and to keep an eye on and too many resources to ever use.
But that doesn't mean that it has to be the way it is. There could be a couple more maps in the pool with the ability to veto a few more, or maybe two map pools, a noob one and an advanced one (which could be named more neutrally of course), letting players choose which one they want to use for laddering.
As many others have said, it's a little strange that Blizzard remains so passive about this.
What angers me the most is, that Blizzard is just not communicating well with the community. They make so much money, sue everyone and their dog, but don't have the time and money to have like 5-10 people in the english forums and communicate with this awesome community?
I don't get it. I can understand why they don't say exact dates on patch releases, cause not being able to keep them would disappoint people, but I hate it, that we don't know what they plan to do with maps and other features and don't answer to so many of the communities questions.
If they take their following in Starcraft for granted, it will never last as an esports. Maybe they'll wake up if heart of the swarm doesn't sell well. We'll see.
I would like to be able to say, that Blizzard WANTS do make good, but since they don't tell us that, I really can't say.
On January 08 2011 02:40 Xeris wrote: Crossfire isn't unreleased, you can play it in custom games, its not bad. What you guys don't realize is that in BW, the original Blizzard maps were the only things used in events for the first 2-3 years of the game. It wasn't until Korean SC got big and the tournament orgs hired their own mapmakers that custom, more balanced/good maps started coming out.
Give Blizzard time O_O!
As true as the past is, eSports isn't in the inception anymore. There are precedents and infrastructure set up to propel SC2 to make correct decisions and directions to grow the sport. It is not like there is a magical date we're all running towards when Blizzard finally wakes up and realizes the current map pool is not good for the longevity of the game.
AFAIK the Koreans have spoken and more are watching BW than SC2. I don't think this is problem that will go away by simply ignoring it and continuing with an as-is GSL. I love the SC2 professional scene as much as anyone on these forums but honestly the games are stagnating. Since every game seems to end on either a 1base or 2base timing attack you never get to see decision making or crisis management. It become redundant. It seems like once I see a few tech structures I know exactly where the game is going and based on the tech structure of the opponent I pretty much know the outcome already.
For the GSL, can GOM take all the really terrible Blizzard maps out and put in say, their own third-party maps? Or does the sponsorship by Blizzard make them have all Blizzard maps.
I currently stopped laddering because of the same old repetitive map pool, and only watch the GSL at this point. Even when watching it, i feel like 'oh steppes again ok'. It just gets boring.
GSL has to use ladder maps because the way you get into the freaking GSL code B is by being a top ranked ladder player. It would be stupid to require your players to practice one set of maps to qualify and then a whole different custom map set once in.
The GSL will not be using any custom maps unless blizz puts them into the ladder.
On January 08 2011 05:38 Donttazemebro wrote: What angers me the most is, that Blizzard is just not communicating well with the community. They make so much money, sue everyone and their dog, but don't have the time and money to have like 5-10 people in the english forums and communicate with this awesome community?
I don't get it. I can understand why they don't say exact dates on patch releases, cause not being able to keep them would disappoint people, but I hate it, that we don't know what they plan to do with maps and other features and don't answer to so many of the communities questions.
If they take their following in Starcraft for granted, it will never last as an esports. Maybe they'll wake up if heart of the swarm doesn't sell well. We'll see.
I would like to be able to say, that Blizzard WANTS do make good, but since they don't tell us that, I really can't say.
Yea, I also feel that blizzard isnt communicating well at all, we rarely know what they are thinking, they delay everything (common we waited those chat channels for 6 damn months) without any informations.
They really need to do something about the map pool, although I see why they don't : the casual wouldn't understand. I know a lot of casuals who think that the map pool is perfectly fine and that it would be too hard to learn to play on other maps. They don't understand why we should rotate some other maps.
On January 08 2011 05:44 LyRa wrote: For the GSL, can GOM take all the really terrible Blizzard maps out and put in say, their own third-party maps? Or does the sponsorship by Blizzard make them have all Blizzard maps.
I currently stopped laddering because of the same old repetitive map pool, and only watch the GSL at this point. Even when watching it, i feel like 'oh steppes again ok'. It just gets boring.
David Kim said that tournaments should look at using fan-made maps.
However, John the Translator has said that GOM isn't planning on implementing custom maps just yet because they feel that it would put teamless players at a disadvantage since all they have is the ladder and no abundance of practice partners.
However, I'm hoping that GOM could shake things up by introducing custom maps into the Team League. The "teamless player" excuse can't really be brought into a league where everyone is from a team, so there would be no disadvantage to anyone.
However, I have a feeling that currently Blizzard is using GSL partially as an advertisement for people to play on the ladder, hence the GSL map pool. I mean, if you see FoxeR abusing the cliff on LT with Thor drops, wouldn't you want to do the same next time you play LT? The ladder is Blizzard's beloved child, and they are trying very hard to portray it as a viable center of competition.
I feel that an organisation is going to have to take a leap of faith and path the way in the use of custom maps in tournaments. A simple removal of 2 maps considered "poorly designed" and the insertion of 2 custom, community maps (both of which have been extensively tested and approval by high level players) would surely be very achievable. Simply sending a public announcement, contacting all players and having a place to access the map file well in advance would be a very small workload for a very large community response. The buzz around such a tournament would be pretty large and viewership would surely increase purely on the curiosity of viewers to see how the maps play out in certain matchups.
I understand that tournament organisers are treading lightly as the game is so new and underdeveloped but they should acknowledge that a huge component in BW's success was custom maps. Hopefully an organisation will step up to the call of the community and give custom maps a try. I honestly don't see what they have to lose (they can always go back to ladder maps if they feel customs were unsuccessful) and I'm sure most viewers would greatly appreciate both the diversity and improvement in game quality that custom maps would bring.
Has anybody played the Blizzard map Worldship? A friend of mine found it in the maps folder and we played a few games on it today. Its not fantastic, but in my mind it highlights a lot of how the map features should be used. For example
Rocks: Are used to create a longer path to expos, a path which is shortened by killing said but rocks. Like the 3rd on Xel Naga. This expo can be taken at any time, but until the rocks go down its easy for the opponent to attack said expo. On the flipside you have rocks used in the opposite manner on Scrap where if you kill them its easier for the attacking player. Their obsession with back doors and using rocks as giant troll faces on expos (read: DQ, and any map with a gold) is not how rocks should be used IMO.
Grass/Smoke: This stuff is spread out pretty randomly on most blizzard maps. Usually it surrounds a Xel Naga tower so you can obviously hide units that are sitting on it. Beyond this its not really used that well in the current map pool, you have a random patch in ur base on Scrap, shove a pylon/depot/ overlord over there and its completely nullified. On Worldship however this stuff is everywhere. Without vision from air units or very wide spreads you literally can't see half of the enemy army at the places where most battles take place which leads to very fun positional plays as your opponent can't see where ur moving all ur stuff. Unlike how they can in deathball battles on Metal or Xel Naga. Just one example of how new map features are not being taken full advantage of. Makes Watch tower control even more important. Speaking of which ...
Watch Towers: Most maps these are just shoved in the middle of the map, along the main attack route, or they are off the side allowing you to easily see drops or outlying expos. Think it would be interesting if these played a more strategix role in the game instead of taking the place of good scouting. Some ideas that spring to mind are having one outside ur base on the low ground that has vision inside ur main making it hard to hide tech or something.
Just feels to me that Blizz came up with these new features to fulfill one purpose and didn't think to apply them elsewhere.
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Yeah, prepare for TvT on Crossfire. It's going to be slower than death.
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Yeah, prepare for TvT on Crossfire. It's going to be slower than death.
At least it seems like it's going to be harder to marine+SCV all-in on this map. People want macro games, right?
i feel like some of the maps are in there just to test the balance. we need to remember that two more expansions and more units are going to come out. a map like scrap tests how close of an air distance vs rush distance you can make while remaining balanced. steppes tests how close you can make the spawns without disrupting balance. blizzard could make a bunch of simple maps like meta and force countless macro games, but to ensure prolonged balance and viability of the game they need to test it at the extremes. i'm guessing that by the time the 3rd expansion is out blizzard will open up the pool.
MapPool made me quit playing, I wasn't high level diamond, i was probably around mid level diamond back in september.
But when go laddering, and almost know the outcome of the match already before the game has started because of the map, well something is wrong. I raged, I quit, and have barley played since =/
The maps definitely have turned me and many people I know off from 1v1 and 2v2. Some of them are just perma-vetoed, the rest are either just bad or possibly bad or good based on positions.
I've followed the BW scene for several years and have to jump on the bandwagon that it's a huge problem the game is being balanced around the maps we currently have. I can only hope Blizzard will open their eyes to the problem this poses to the future of SC2 as an esport.
If you play around with the editor, you'll notice that there are several possibilities of introducing new and unseen features to the maps, e. g. curtain fields. There are a lot of possibilities, but we shouldn't end up creating minigames.
On January 08 2011 06:05 wideye wrote: i feel like some of the maps are in there just to test the balance. we need to remember that two more expansions and more units are going to come out. a map like scrap tests how close of an air distance vs rush distance you can make while remaining balanced. steppes tests how close you can make the spawns without disrupting balance. blizzard could make a bunch of simple maps like meta and force countless macro games, but to ensure prolonged balance and viability of the game they need to test it at the extremes. i'm guessing that by the time the 3rd expansion is out blizzard will open up the pool.
any one else share this opinion?
I sincerely hope that you are wrong. If this is their plan they are being idiots. How could the player base, especially the higher echelon of players be expect to wait 3 years, at a minimum, for a bet.ter map pool. The highly competitive scene may stay fairly popular if that happens, as there is a lot of large prizes, but the average high rated ladder player would, I'm guessing, get bored and stop playing
On January 08 2011 06:08 mYNDIG wrote: MapPool made me quit playing, I wasn't high level diamond, i was probably around mid level diamond back in september.
But when go laddering, and almost know the outcome of the match already before the game has started because of the map, well something is wrong. I raged, I quit, and have barley played since =/
*shakes head* This is, IMO, almost as bad as crying imbalance.
There is nothing stopping you from simply being a better player. People dislike the maps mostly because they allow for strategies that are much easier to come up with than to come up with a way to stop. You don't know the outcome of the match because of the map. That's something a scrub would say. Consider Thor drops on LT. They used to be common. Now that they have been partially figured out you see them less and less because they are less and less effective. No change to the map required.
People who constantly complain about map balance need to chill out and find a much more constructive outlet for their frustration. Complaining incessantly is not going to help the community.
And what's all this criticism of Blizzard? They SAID they were going to implement community maps. They've said this more than once. They've also said that it's simply not a priority right now. And I agree with them.
On January 09 2011 00:51 Dudely wrote: And what's all this criticism of Blizzard? They SAID they were going to implement community maps. They've said this more than once. They've also said that it's simply not a priority right now. And I agree with them.
What do you mean by "implement community maps"? Incorporate some community maps into the ladder? Do you have any source on this?
If that's what you mean, last time I checked everything points in the other direction. People like iCCup.Diamond saying it's looking grim and Kennigit getting to know from a Blizzard developer that maps are a low to non-priority, left to the community to deal with (check last State of the Game).
The question people are asking is why Blizzard persists to ignore an issue that isn't particularly hard to address. Complaints are made frequently and repeatedly about the maps, across multiple levels of skill, and no mention is even made by the blues.
When you say you "agree with them", I guess you either think that the current map pool is not an issue, or that there are much greater things to do that consume all the time the developers could put into giving a shit about maps.
On January 08 2011 02:19 eviltomahawk wrote: 4. I think Blizzard still has an ace up their sleeve in the form of the unreleased map Crossfire. http://i.imgur.com/MK4R1.jpg Seriously, this map looks amazing compared to their other 1v1 maps, and I'm hoping that they will eventually replace Blistering Sands or Steppes of War with this much superior offering.
Yeah, prepare for TvT on Crossfire. It's going to be slower than death.
ever seen BW TvT?
anyways new maps are coming next season.More variety coming at you!!!!
Blistering sands is the most terrible map out there. Steppes is actually OK because it's not that hard to defend against rushes if you scout properly as a terran, but I guess as a zerg it would be quite difficult. SS is definitely an annoying map because of how annoying it is to harass a zerg as a terran and you have to travel so far to everywhere and muta harass is so easy to pull off. LT is generally an alright map apart from that stupid cliffed natural. IMO metal is the most balanced map so far. Delta quadrant...meh Jungle basin is ridiculously hard to grab a 3rd. Other than that the map is pretty good because of base distances aren't too close or too far and the 2nd is nice.
If that's what you mean, last time I checked everything points in the other direction. People like iCCup.Diamond saying it's looking grim and Kennigit getting to know from a Blizzard developer that maps are a low to non-priority, left to the community to deal with (check last State of the Game). .
One of those people is, in my opinion, speaking more out of self-interest than necessarily fact, while the other's account is hearsay.
On January 07 2011 10:46 bennyaus wrote: I don't get why people are so harsh on SC2, the game is in its infancy... it took years for SC:BW to become the game it is now.
This is definitely part of the issue but I think a lot of the maturing (of the community) that took place in SC1 would've translated over into SC2 better if battle.net 2.0 didn't have such a monopoly on how the map pool was going to play out.
On January 08 2011 06:05 wideye wrote: i feel like some of the maps are in there just to test the balance. we need to remember that two more expansions and more units are going to come out. a map like scrap tests how close of an air distance vs rush distance you can make while remaining balanced. steppes tests how close you can make the spawns without disrupting balance. blizzard could make a bunch of simple maps like meta and force countless macro games, but to ensure prolonged balance and viability of the game they need to test it at the extremes. i'm guessing that by the time the 3rd expansion is out blizzard will open up the pool.
any one else share this opinion?
You have a good point, but to wait until the 3rd expo comes out to have good maps is way too long. And really these "extremes" really should have been tested during the beta. Once the game comes out there should ideally only be fine tweaking when it comes to changing the dynamics of the game. And I think blizz agrees with this. The current map pool isn't for further testing in blizz's eyes. Blizz just honestly thinks it's okay to have these silly all-in maps or gimmicky maps that make the game less fun to watch and less fun to play, all in the name of "diversity".
IMHO if they're going to keep the dumb maps blizz should at the very least make the map pool bigger with more straightforward big maps like shakuras.
Is blizz listening though? Especially with GSL changing it's map pool and all the complaints from players blizz hasn't even addressed the problem. I hope they do soon though.
On January 08 2011 01:57 Lawdy wrote: it's like they absolutely don't care in the slightest.
this is correct
which has been stated before by them at blizzcon
Blizzard is not going to be making competitive maps (as they have said)
Blizzard will not be including custom maps on ladder play
Hence we are stuck with this Map Pool until Heart of The swarm
Hence SC2 is just something I don't care about anymore and I'm sure many other people feel the same way and have stopped playing / watching and won't be getting expos. I'm pretty sure even blizz employees probably stopped caring when they had to take orders from activision.
If they aren't making competitive maps then what the hell kind of maps are they making!? Starcraft is a competition to see who can beat the other person's army! If they aren't designing the maps with the balance of the game's most fundamental principle in mind then wtf are they aiming for?
EPT
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i can almost forgive if they were imbalanced as fuck, i just wanna ladder with some new maps
