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As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran.
Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
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On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200  indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I love reading this as I haven't really seen anyone taking Zerg's disadvantage seriously. Everyone just point to the GSL-winners and say "Terran is the weakest!". I don't base my opinion at all on my own experiences, I try to purely focus on statistics.
Here's a good example:
Find the latest Zerg tournament winner (Idra's and Ret's victories are in a show match and a KotH event) :
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
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On December 29 2010 19:45 decaf wrote:
As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran.
Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
They don't need to anticipate broodlords as they already have starport + reactor available for medivacs.
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Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
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Nice to see Liquid players doing good Hopefully we'll see them in the top 50 soon? :D
Anyway, IMO the top koreans do not play ladder so much, so those rankings arent so correct.
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mvp is the mvp from sc1 right? just making sure here )
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Australia8532 Posts
Yay for this being turned into a balance thread :/
Chances that the team participation drop off is due to preparation for GSL tour starting soon??
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 29 2010 21:04 MorroW wrote:
mvp is the mvp from sc1 right? just making sure here )
Yes you are correct
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On December 29 2010 20:50 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 19:45 decaf wrote:
As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran.
Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
They don't need to anticipate broodlords as they already have starport + reactor available for medivacs.
another funny thing about broodlords is actually that they loose -1 armor during the morph from corruptors; BL are so easy to counter with vikings or voidrays; ultras are terribly slow off creep and only good in combination with infestors(but we dont have unlimited gas and need roach/hydra/corruptor before)
most of time i only find myself teching to hire just to get 3/3 and ling upgrades
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On December 29 2010 19:52 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. I love reading this as I haven't really seen anyone taking Zerg's disadvantage seriously. Everyone just point to the GSL-winners and say "Terran is the weakest!". I don't base my opinion at all on my own experiences, I try to purely focus on statistics. Here's a good example: Find the latest Zerg tournament winner (Idra's and Ret's victories are in a show match and a KotH event) : http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
People think Terran is the weakest? Since when?
That's probably the rarest thing I've read on this forum, maybe I don't lurk enough.
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It's not really a balance thread... but the small maps and being unable to scout most of the times makes the games a coin flip and the shortest stick in that game is for the zerg.
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Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting 
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
oGsCarmel(P) vs 저승사자 (Z)
http://jupanda.tistory.com/424
oGsVicaL(P) vs 저승사자 (Z)
http://jupanda.tistory.com/422
SKit(T) vs 저승사자 (Z)
http://jupanda.tistory.com/419
Enjoy!
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
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On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote:
Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
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On December 29 2010 22:08 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote:
Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues. In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
You are right I stand corrected . But this argument goes both ways which means that less zerg doesn't mean that it's unbalanced. but I really don't know anymore since everyone is just whining that their race is UP... It's getting tiresome and annoying.
And I agree that you shouldn't stop posting these weekly I enjoy reading them so thanks for posting these and it would be appreciated if you keep doing so :D.
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I don't think anyone intelligent has ever complained about Terran being under powered, at any stage of the game.
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On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote:
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
please have some selfrespect
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EtdGrrr anyone can confirme if is really him?
Idra
For what has to read you are going to change protoss if the GSL works bad for you or blizzard dont change things right?
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On December 29 2010 22:08 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote:
Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues. In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
maybe it was different in scbw but in other rts games you will find the strongest race be the most popular on higher levels
since gaming has changed a lot since scbw i claim that this effect has also caught sc2 especially since its changing rapidly - in my own experience: until gsl2 i had like 7 out of 10 games zvt; after gsl2 the number of zerg mirrors increased a lot and it was like every 2nd game zvz and its easy to guess which race im facing the most now (gsl3)
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On December 29 2010 22:33 SoL[9] wrote:
EtdGrrr anyone can confirme if is really him?
Idra
For what has to read you are going to change protoss if the GSL works bad for you or blizzard dont change things right?
how does that happen
i explicitly said in that same post that im probably sticking with z no matter what
im just playing some protoss on the side in case things get even worse and blizzard keeps doing nothing. since sc2 is more strategically than mechanically oriented its helpful to play offraces anyway.
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IdrA dropping so much is just mainly due to a huge slump he had like two days ago:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wXNer.png)
So, it's not particularly worrying. And not to pick hairs, but there are Zergs in the top 10.
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EPT
