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Korean top 200 12/28/2010 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Pondo
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia283 Posts
December 29 2010 08:51 GMT
#61
There are several options. Improve ms of overlords. Or don't make lair a requirement for overseer.
Fa1nT
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3423 Posts
December 29 2010 08:53 GMT
#62
On December 29 2010 17:44 crescendo111 wrote:
Idra,

As to the early game scouting comment, how could Blizzard make that better? I would love to be able to scout better, as I feel scouting is the weakest part of my game and consequently the part holding me back from gaining on the ladder.


Even a SMALL increase to overlord starting speed, such as

0.4687 ->.70305 (50%)

Or +1 armor for overlords, would make scouting DRASTICALLY easier early game.

2 marines patroling should not end all scouting for the next 6-7 minutes.
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 09:08:03
December 29 2010 08:56 GMT
#63
On December 29 2010 15:03 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 14:59 Zooper31 wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote:
Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.

Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.


I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.

its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.


*EDIT* TSL joke isn't funny anymore
_________________________

On a serious note: I think Blizzard will definitely be trying to focus on re-tweaking the zerg race very soon.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Eschaton
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1245 Posts
December 29 2010 08:56 GMT
#64
On December 29 2010 17:51 Pondo wrote:
There are several options. Improve ms of overlords. Or don't make lair a requirement for overseer.


ovie speed as tier one maybe? this might have the potential to change so much without really breaking anything. it wouldn't break very early game scouting as you'd still have to research it, but you would be able to get an idea of what to prepare for and not insta-lose for guessing their move incorrectly. also, more zergs would research this and be set up to research ovie drop at tier 2, lowering the cost of a tech that isn't often seen.

I'd really love to see that as a test on PTR.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
December 29 2010 08:57 GMT
#65
On December 29 2010 17:49 Moja wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:
On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:
all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200

indeed
if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant.
its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.

Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?

I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)

zerg is fucking awful
clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.

and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.

if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.

zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.


I can understand the protoss death ball (I've seen it in games you played vs HuK), but what's the terran death ball composed of? Marine tank viking?

I agree that early game cheese/all-ins are far too prevalent against zerg... How can blizzard "make scouting easier" though?

tank thor with enough marines to mess up magic box mutas and vikings if they go brood
add in emp if they get to heavy air and are using infestors vs vikings.

they should either up overlord base speed or make overlord speed upgrade hatch tech and cheaper
they should also make observers equivalently better
and scan/mule should be reduced to 25 mana and mules weakened proportionately


http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Eschaton
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1245 Posts
December 29 2010 08:58 GMT
#66
On December 29 2010 17:56 Silentness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 15:03 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:59 Zooper31 wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote:
Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.

Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.


I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.

its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.


*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build

TSL IdrA has left the game.


Thank you for trolling. You are one of the reasons more pros won't actually engage in discussions on tl with the community.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
December 29 2010 08:58 GMT
#67
On December 29 2010 17:56 Silentness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 15:03 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:59 Zooper31 wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote:
Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.

Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.


I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.

its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.


*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build

TSL IdrA has left the game.

case in point
canceling a cc that early vs a protoss whos being aggressive is game over, i was supply capped and had just wasted 300 minerals with a factory that was 400 minerals slower than usual
dont post if you're stupid please
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Goolpsy
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark301 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 09:06:52
December 29 2010 08:59 GMT
#68
I honestly like the way scouting works right now.

The biggest problem however seems to be reaction time, which correlates to rush-distance between bases.

Edit: I do not think making overlord speed a hatch tech breaks anything. - Good suggestion!
Bliznako
Profile Joined November 2010
Serbia165 Posts
December 29 2010 09:04 GMT
#69
Well, Blizzard considers making observers cheaper... can't see why they cannot change how zerg scouting works, especially when you take into consideration the number of small maps in the ladder pool. I don't see increasing overlord speed as game-breaking in any way.

Btw, changing Overseer to hatch tech is just silly... they'd have to remove the contaminate ability to avoid abuse.
Rainmaker5
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1027 Posts
December 29 2010 09:08 GMT
#70
On December 29 2010 17:58 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 17:56 Silentness wrote:
On December 29 2010 15:03 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:59 Zooper31 wrote:
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote:
Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.

Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.


I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.

its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.


*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build

TSL IdrA has left the game.

case in point
canceling a cc that early vs a protoss whos being aggressive is game over, i was supply capped and had just wasted 300 minerals with a factory that was 400 minerals slower than usual
dont post if you're stupid please

Off topic, but IdrA you were in [media] with ret right?
(-_(-_(-_(^_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-)_-)_-)_-) CJ Fighting! "Beer -> soju -> whisky is a terrible build"~~ Scrarecrow.
cArn-
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)824 Posts
December 29 2010 09:10 GMT
#71
On December 29 2010 17:57 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 17:49 Moja wrote:
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:
On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:
all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200

indeed
if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant.
its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.

Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?

I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)

zerg is fucking awful
clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.

and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.

if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.

zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.


I can understand the protoss death ball (I've seen it in games you played vs HuK), but what's the terran death ball composed of? Marine tank viking?

I agree that early game cheese/all-ins are far too prevalent against zerg... How can blizzard "make scouting easier" though?

tank thor with enough marines to mess up magic box mutas and vikings if they go brood
add in emp if they get to heavy air and are using infestors vs vikings.

they should either up overlord base speed or make overlord speed upgrade hatch tech and cheaper
they should also make observers equivalently better
and scan/mule should be reduced to 25 mana and mules weakened proportionately




Definetely agree with that, was exactly my thoughts on the subject
Twitter : http://twitter.com/CARNDARAK
.Aar
Profile Joined September 2010
2177 Posts
December 29 2010 09:15 GMT
#72
Wow, I didn't know SlayerSBoxer was so high up. Also, the difference between MVP and number two is pretty big, hahaha.

FoxeR has the best name on this list

#200 makes me sad. If that's not another FoxeR smurf, whoever's playing that ought to be shot.
now run into the setting sun, and suffer, but don't mess up your hair.
CopperLeague
Profile Joined June 2010
154 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 09:19:12
December 29 2010 09:17 GMT
#73
IdrA,

Thanks for the replies. Nice to hear about the reasons why zerg isn't doing too hot lately.

I suck ass, but in my recent switch to zerg, I realized just how shitty it must be to ladder as a zerg. There is maybe 10% of games that don't end within five minutes. Cannon cheese, bunker rush, marine rush... it is ridiculous. I really think zerg is a fun race to play. I love the creep spreading and a lot of the units seem pretty cool. There are just too many gimmicky bullshit strategies that make zerg not only hard to play, but almost a luck based race. That's in my own terrible experience, anyways.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-29 09:27:38
December 29 2010 09:24 GMT
#74
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
Eschaton
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1245 Posts
December 29 2010 09:32 GMT
#75
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote:
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.


Maybe you shouldn't post while drunk, or in bronze league. Protoss production buildings still have cooldowns.
dapierow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Serbia1316 Posts
December 29 2010 09:33 GMT
#76
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote:
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.

Ever try putting a tank on high ground in your base to protect your nat from those 30 speedlings and 10 banes?

Eat.Sleep.Starcraft 2
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
December 29 2010 09:34 GMT
#77
On December 29 2010 18:32 Eschaton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote:
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.


Maybe you shouldn't post while drunk, or in bronze league. Protoss production buildings still have cooldowns.


You shouldn't post while not understanding. A 200vs200 fight --> protoss WINS the fight (= terran loses all his units) --> protoss adds more units to his champion army --> protoss attacks with his winning army + reinforcements --> terran dies.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
December 29 2010 09:49 GMT
#78
You shouldn't post while not understanding. A 200vs200 fight --> protoss WINS the fight (= terran loses all his units) --> protoss adds more units to his champion army --> protoss attacks with his winning army + reinforcements --> terran dies.


Well your english isn't great(or you're drunk) which is why nobody is understanding your 2 posts, which basically say that Terran can't 21 CC vs. Zerg or they'll die to banelings, and mules shouldn't be nerfed until a 200 supply terran army can beat a 200 supply toss army because those mules are the only thing allowing terran to keep up with toss and zerg economies.

Not sure what this really has to do with anything, but maybe that helps to clarify because I had to reread your posts 10 times to finally understand them.

The other potential change if they don't want to make speed hatch tech for OL's could be to reduce queen build time, and make ol speed cost 50/50. Would allow for faster lair tech, and basically mean all zerg players could get the speed upgrade quicker. I see this similar to making hallucinate even cheaper/easier to get as a scouting tool for toss.

Would potentially go one step further in maybe allowing lair tech to happen while a queen was building. I've never liked how lair tech was delayed by 1 building cycle of a queen. Would be like having to wait to build a cybor core till you had a zealot or needing a maurader to build a factory.
Fa1nT
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3423 Posts
December 29 2010 09:50 GMT
#79
Protoss 200/200 armies are never better than a terrans until amulet + storm + 10+ templars are out.

Colossi are too hindered by 9rangekings
Asha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom38257 Posts
December 29 2010 10:11 GMT
#80
Ignoring the balance talk for a moment...

...woah Bomber has been super impressive lately, really looking forward to his YGosu finals vs MC tomorrow now. Boxer having such a good week too is kind of exciting as well I guess ^^
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