I almost decided to stop posting this weekly, now that there's a masters list or whatever over on sc2ranks, but there was some noteworthy stuff I thought might be interesting to everybody. + Show Spoiler [player list] +
So let's get the obvious out of the way: Terran make up 8 of the top 11 spots. There are some players who aren't that surprising, like MVP, ST_Bomber who's been playing very well in the YGOSU invitational, Boxer, MarineKing, but there are also players who (at least to my knowledge - they could be smurfs) haven't made quite as much noise in tournaments. Of course i'm hesitant to put too much weight on ladder rankings because everyone uses it differently, especially because the overall terran representation went down from last week. So overall I wouldn't start panicking about a tectonic shift towards terran in Korea.
Foreigners, I'd say, had an overall negative week. Huk maintained his spot at the top of the foreigners, despite dropping from 27 to 42. Idra plummeted from 38 to 126, and Jinro dropped from 76 to 104. On the flip side, ret rose from 114 to 93, SEn went up from 97 to 92. Finally, HayprO returned to the list after a brief absence at 181.
I've done all the names I know for sure, trying to figure out the rest. if you know Korean and want to correct me on one of the ones I've marked with a question mark or just translate the ones that have nothing so far, just post em up and I'll edit them in and give you credit~
Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
damn ZERG REPRESENTING! mb when zerg drops below 20% blizz might care :> its pretty comical watching idra's stream when its on just shows how great the korean ladder is and how awesome the meta game is atm for zerg.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
he just leaves becos if he gets cannon'd in or loses his nat early its nearly impossible for him to win from that position, and he's not going to waste 10 minutes waiting to lose.
he'd rather just start the next game. obviously if it was gsl or sumthing he would TRY to win those games, but in ladder its just not worth it, cos he's basically lost already
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
But Idra we're pros like you too! The man has a point, seen lots of games where a top player quits and I have to think an extra minute or two to realize why it happened.
OT: I wonder why all the foreigner drops? Practicing in customs more than ladder or something?
EDIT: I like how once Idra posts all of a sudden everyone changes opinion.. So ya Idra sucks! He shouldn't rage quit what a newb! ect. ect.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
Agreed, it might be possible to come back from that sort of thing at our level, but at IdrA's it's near impossible and not worth the time imo.
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
Agreed, it might be possible to come back from that sort of thing at our level, but at IdrA's it's near impossible and not worth the time imo.
I compare it to chess games, even though I never play. No matter how good you are, there are situations where you will be check-mated in 2-3 turns, and good players see that and give up instantly. Even better players see that in advance and make sure it never happens, but anyways
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
If i am not wrong, Morrow also practices that way. He said something like if he sent his overlord the wrong way, he leaves the game straightaway because a decent player would have killed it. Or if he loses like a few more lings than usual, he surrendered in ladder.Probably it's a good idea if you wanna refine your strategy or mechanics like Morrow did when he just switched.
Some people like HuK i think delays his gg for quite a while.
That said, in tournament games it is probably worth it to play on regardless of the situation. if FD had this fast gg mindset, he would not be GSL 1 champ because he would have gg-ed in game 3 against oGsTOP. So, It's probably good to practice playing from a sure lose situation
This is just ladder though so probably why some doesnt bother if they think the game is decided.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
in all likelihood, he has practiced against it enough to conclude that if the protoss does not fuck up, then he will eventually lose so he'd rather not waste his time trying to play out a game
On December 29 2010 15:30 dapierow wrote: almost double amount of terran and protoss compared to zerg... stuff like this really makes me want to switch races
... in other news NaDa only 124
Nada went 3-9 this week so he dropped from 57 last week, I don't think it's a big deal since it's more a sign of inactivity than poor play.
As for the Idra thing, it's most likely a consequence of why he plays the ladder. This is just conjecture, but I think he practices with partners and mostly does ladder to try and find out new trends or strats that opponents are using, to avoid the practice-bubble effect where the strats get stagnant if you only practice with the same circle of people. So if he's most likely going to lose to a cheese he might just GG out to get on with what he really wants to get out of laddering. Once again this is just a guess, but it makes sense to me.
On December 29 2010 15:05 tossmumble wrote: # 19 july zerG?
Yup Only Code A next season tho Kick some ass July get into S class where you belong. Good Stats by Boxer.
Anyone else think once the seasons start for real and the team competitions are up and running, the better players will start disappearing from the ladder because they practice everything in house? or are we now too far removed from the Kespa style way of running teams to have that happen? I'm in 2 minds over it, if everyone is always on ladder everyone can improve, but then everyones style will look similar, but if they practice inhouse away from the public, different styles and approaches may start to appear.. but then it means as the top players aren't playing ladder.. it has less value (than it does already..) and a divide will appear between the top players and the rest ala BW.
On December 29 2010 15:38 YiukeDukem wrote: EtdGrrr the real giyom? Or not? All I know is that Etd has the Chinese players right?
It's not Guillaume Patry. I asked TheWind last week in his stream chat after he hit him if it was 기욤 and he said no, and he's a reliable source as far as I'm concerned.
all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Surprised CheckPrime is that far up there in ladder ranking. He was really good in Beta, but i honestly haven't seen that great of play from Check in GSL.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
On December 29 2010 16:14 Cyanocyst wrote: Surprised CheckPrime is that far up there in ladder ranking. He was really good in Beta, but i honestly haven't seen that great of play from Check in GSL.
It shouldn't be too surprising that Check is so high on the ladder, considering that he has perhaps the most ladder games of anyone on the planet (more than 3000? really? nuts.)
Top 200 MMR means nothing except good performance in ladder. Look at tournament wins if you're looking for inspirations or up and coming players who you think will do well.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
On December 29 2010 16:53 Wolf wrote: Top 200 MMR means nothing except good performance in ladder. Look at tournament wins if you're looking for inspirations or up and coming players who you think will do well.
eh I don't think it's a coincidence that Terran's have been dominating ladder and tournament wins just the same. The top 200 is a pretty good indication of the strength of the races at that point in time.
On December 29 2010 15:05 tossmumble wrote: # 19 july zerG?
Yup Only Code A next season tho Kick some ass July get into S class where you belong. Good Stats by Boxer.
Anyone else think once the seasons start for real and the team competitions are up and running, the better players will start disappearing from the ladder because they practice everything in house? or are we now too far removed from the Kespa style way of running teams to have that happen? I'm in 2 minds over it, if everyone is always on ladder everyone can improve, but then everyones style will look similar, but if they practice inhouse away from the public, different styles and approaches may start to appear.. but then it means as the top players aren't playing ladder.. it has less value (than it does already..) and a divide will appear between the top players and the rest ala BW.
In some measure, but as far as I know, Blizz and GOM will host some big torunaments based on ladder rankings, so some might still be interested in laddering.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
What do you think is the reason for this? The current patches or there is something fundamentaly wrong with the zerg race?
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
^^ I dunno if I can agree with IdrA on the hive units thing but I am a 2500 zerg so what do I know
but ill give my opinion anyway
vs Terran Brood lords are my saving grace if I can tech up to them I can usually win the game but getting up to brood lords without spending too much gas on infestors or surviving drop play is the hard part
vs Protoss they usually get 200/200 and push out before I can even get brood lords but If i can get them, they will just go trigger happy with forcefields and try to abuse range of collossus but I can usually just back up and abuse the range of brood lords while their gateway units are trapped... unless they have blink... then its gay as fuck... or void rays... then its even gayer...
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
What do you think is the reason for this? The current patches or there is something fundamentaly wrong with the zerg race?
the nature of drone vs unit balance means its probably always going to be a delicate race, but i dont think thats fundamentally a problem, thats just one of the skills required to play the race the game could certainly be balanced with patches, improving the hydra and/or hive units and making early game scouting (for all races) significantly better.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
A lot of these things can be corrected by having better maps. Current map pool encourages cheese play with small rush distances and is full of choke points so Zerg army can't flank. No wonder Z feels weak.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
What do you think is the reason for this? The current patches or there is something fundamentaly wrong with the zerg race?
Idra said it in his post. The reasons are three fold.
1. Inaccurate scouting or lack there of early game. Many early pressures by p or t have vastly different counters from zerg so its impossible to do a standard build that counters everything. So this requires good scouting which is next to impossible with good building placement and active anti-scouting.
2. Our requirement to gain an economic advantage to be in the game. This makes every early game pressure a near all-in. While you can do an aggressive 3 gate and still be okay with an expansion behind.
3. Lastly, the end game armies are incredibly cost efficient versus zerg armies. Our end game units are not nearly as cost efficient. Brood lords can be a great unit but due to immobility and production time they are not the answer.
I still play zerg and will continue but the majority of games I win the opponent makes a mistake or I counter them in the mid game and enter the late game with an advantage I compound through harass.
TLDR: Scouting requirements for zerg are much higher for zerg, economic requirements are higher for zerg, and our units are less efficient than the protoss/terran counterparts.
zerg is fundamentally flawed. when compared to T and P, it almost feels incomplete as a race - as if the designers had no idea wtf they were doing.
that said, i think if they gave us a hydra buff (like speed upgrade and make range natural) and removed nydus worm gas costs we'd be fine... but it looks like until HotS we're fucked.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
Are you banking on Blizzard balancing things, or are you gonna stick with Zerg regardless?
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
Marines are stronger than in BW and mules are very strong too. It is way too easy for terrans to all in and still be ahead economically..
Against protoss chrono boost allows a protoss to change builds without changing structures. This makes it hard to tell if they are gonna 3 gate or all in.
On top of this, lategame is an AoE fest where every zerg unit gets obliterated.
It would be nice if AoE was toned down, marine attack speed was nerfed, and zerg was given an early game support unit with scouting capabilities. Even a spine crawler build time/ burrow time would go far.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm)
I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit.
The two wins in GSL for Zerg didn't do any favor for the race in the whole picture and the balance discussion. IMO, the Zerg players who win these tournaments would be one hell of an opponent if they played T or P, simply because of the sheer "on the edge" experience from playing Zerg.
Thumbs up for players like Idra who are just stubborn enough to change race.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm)
I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit.
fruitdealer made a big post bitching about zvt during his gsl 1 run nestea called out and tvz'd some random korean newbie who said it was easy to hold cheese zvt because its that retarded.
you think they resort to allins nearly every zvp because they want to turn the game into a coinflip vs players worse than them?
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm)
I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit.
You can't know what they think since Nestea and FD don't post on TL. Also, there is no recent balance discussion in the translated interviews.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
Are you banking on Blizzard balancing things, or are you gonna stick with Zerg regardless?
im stuck with z for the time being cuz of gsl in january. ill probably stay with it regardless just cuz ive invested so much time in it and i would like the way the race plays a lot if it were stronger, but im playing a lot of protoss as well right now.
Idra, why don't you just switch to protoss? Forcefields basically allow you to decide what kind of games you want to play- long or short. Would probably be much better fit.
As to the early game scouting comment, how could Blizzard make that better? I would love to be able to scout better, as I feel scouting is the weakest part of my game and consequently the part holding me back from gaining on the ladder.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
Are you banking on Blizzard balancing things, or are you gonna stick with Zerg regardless?
im stuck with z for the time being cuz of gsl in january. ill probably stay with it regardless just cuz ive invested so much time in it and i would like the way the race plays a lot if it were stronger, but im playing a lot of protoss as well right now.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I can understand the protoss death ball (I've seen it in games you played vs HuK), but what's the terran death ball composed of? Marine tank viking?
I agree that early game cheese/all-ins are far too prevalent against zerg... How can blizzard "make scouting easier" though?
On December 29 2010 17:44 crescendo111 wrote: Idra,
As to the early game scouting comment, how could Blizzard make that better? I would love to be able to scout better, as I feel scouting is the weakest part of my game and consequently the part holding me back from gaining on the ladder.
Even a SMALL increase to overlord starting speed, such as
0.4687 ->.70305 (50%)
Or +1 armor for overlords, would make scouting DRASTICALLY easier early game.
2 marines patroling should not end all scouting for the next 6-7 minutes.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
On December 29 2010 17:51 Pondo wrote: There are several options. Improve ms of overlords. Or don't make lair a requirement for overseer.
ovie speed as tier one maybe? this might have the potential to change so much without really breaking anything. it wouldn't break very early game scouting as you'd still have to research it, but you would be able to get an idea of what to prepare for and not insta-lose for guessing their move incorrectly. also, more zergs would research this and be set up to research ovie drop at tier 2, lowering the cost of a tech that isn't often seen.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I can understand the protoss death ball (I've seen it in games you played vs HuK), but what's the terran death ball composed of? Marine tank viking?
I agree that early game cheese/all-ins are far too prevalent against zerg... How can blizzard "make scouting easier" though?
tank thor with enough marines to mess up magic box mutas and vikings if they go brood add in emp if they get to heavy air and are using infestors vs vikings.
they should either up overlord base speed or make overlord speed upgrade hatch tech and cheaper they should also make observers equivalently better and scan/mule should be reduced to 25 mana and mules weakened proportionately
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build
TSL IdrA has left the game.
Thank you for trolling. You are one of the reasons more pros won't actually engage in discussions on tl with the community.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build
TSL IdrA has left the game.
case in point canceling a cc that early vs a protoss whos being aggressive is game over, i was supply capped and had just wasted 300 minerals with a factory that was 400 minerals slower than usual dont post if you're stupid please
Well, Blizzard considers making observers cheaper... can't see why they cannot change how zerg scouting works, especially when you take into consideration the number of small maps in the ladder pool. I don't see increasing overlord speed as game-breaking in any way.
Btw, changing Overseer to hatch tech is just silly... they'd have to remove the contaminate ability to avoid abuse.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
*remembers TSL* Idra Fast expand into CC cancel build
TSL IdrA has left the game.
case in point canceling a cc that early vs a protoss whos being aggressive is game over, i was supply capped and had just wasted 300 minerals with a factory that was 400 minerals slower than usual dont post if you're stupid please
Off topic, but IdrA you were in [media] with ret right?
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I can understand the protoss death ball (I've seen it in games you played vs HuK), but what's the terran death ball composed of? Marine tank viking?
I agree that early game cheese/all-ins are far too prevalent against zerg... How can blizzard "make scouting easier" though?
tank thor with enough marines to mess up magic box mutas and vikings if they go brood add in emp if they get to heavy air and are using infestors vs vikings.
they should either up overlord base speed or make overlord speed upgrade hatch tech and cheaper they should also make observers equivalently better and scan/mule should be reduced to 25 mana and mules weakened proportionately
Definetely agree with that, was exactly my thoughts on the subject
Thanks for the replies. Nice to hear about the reasons why zerg isn't doing too hot lately.
I suck ass, but in my recent switch to zerg, I realized just how shitty it must be to ladder as a zerg. There is maybe 10% of games that don't end within five minutes. Cannon cheese, bunker rush, marine rush... it is ridiculous. I really think zerg is a fun race to play. I love the creep spreading and a lot of the units seem pretty cool. There are just too many gimmicky bullshit strategies that make zerg not only hard to play, but almost a luck based race. That's in my own terrible experience, anyways.
It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote: It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
Maybe you shouldn't post while drunk, or in bronze league. Protoss production buildings still have cooldowns.
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote: It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
Ever try putting a tank on high ground in your base to protect your nat from those 30 speedlings and 10 banes?
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote: It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
Maybe you shouldn't post while drunk, or in bronze league. Protoss production buildings still have cooldowns.
You shouldn't post while not understanding. A 200vs200 fight --> protoss WINS the fight (= terran loses all his units) --> protoss adds more units to his champion army --> protoss attacks with his winning army + reinforcements --> terran dies.
You shouldn't post while not understanding. A 200vs200 fight --> protoss WINS the fight (= terran loses all his units) --> protoss adds more units to his champion army --> protoss attacks with his winning army + reinforcements --> terran dies.
Well your english isn't great(or you're drunk) which is why nobody is understanding your 2 posts, which basically say that Terran can't 21 CC vs. Zerg or they'll die to banelings, and mules shouldn't be nerfed until a 200 supply terran army can beat a 200 supply toss army because those mules are the only thing allowing terran to keep up with toss and zerg economies.
Not sure what this really has to do with anything, but maybe that helps to clarify because I had to reread your posts 10 times to finally understand them.
The other potential change if they don't want to make speed hatch tech for OL's could be to reduce queen build time, and make ol speed cost 50/50. Would allow for faster lair tech, and basically mean all zerg players could get the speed upgrade quicker. I see this similar to making hallucinate even cheaper/easier to get as a scouting tool for toss.
Would potentially go one step further in maybe allowing lair tech to happen while a queen was building. I've never liked how lair tech was delayed by 1 building cycle of a queen. Would be like having to wait to build a cybor core till you had a zealot or needing a maurader to build a factory.
...woah Bomber has been super impressive lately, really looking forward to his YGosu finals vs MC tomorrow now. Boxer having such a good week too is kind of exciting as well I guess ^^
As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran. Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I love reading this as I haven't really seen anyone taking Zerg's disadvantage seriously. Everyone just point to the GSL-winners and say "Terran is the weakest!". I don't base my opinion at all on my own experiences, I try to purely focus on statistics.
Here's a good example: Find the latest Zerg tournament winner (Idra's and Ret's victories are in a show match and a KotH event) :
On December 29 2010 19:45 decaf wrote: As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran. Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
They don't need to anticipate broodlords as they already have starport + reactor available for medivacs.
Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
Nice to see Liquid players doing good Hopefully we'll see them in the top 50 soon? :D Anyway, IMO the top koreans do not play ladder so much, so those rankings arent so correct.
On December 29 2010 19:45 decaf wrote: As far as I'm concerned the only thing that Zerg is good at is the midgame, when the effects of the larvae systems kick in and you got a better idea of what your opponent is doing. However, early game and late game (if you play against decent players) get ruled by protoss or terran. Since most ZvPs don't take very long (cause everyone 2 bases, cannon walls, 4gates or any other cheesy allin strat) I get to feel Terran's strong late game way more.
If you take meta (which is not as "zerg favored" as many might think) for instance against a decent terran and you made it to late game surving the inevitable early game bunker push he can easily cut the map in half and you got to stay on the same amount of bases. He can put tanks near the watch tower and destroy your gold while you can either go and kill his tanks for no justified price or oyu can just watch him doing it, because you cant just go and kill one of his bases, because PFs and turrets are so cost-effective. You need a whole army to destroy an empty terran base, while he can just land 2 medivacs and kill important tech structures, queens, drones or whatever. Most terrans anticipate the broodlords coming and will have some vikings out in time and kill you. There's really no way winning late game except being two times better.
They don't need to anticipate broodlords as they already have starport + reactor available for medivacs.
another funny thing about broodlords is actually that they loose -1 armor during the morph from corruptors; BL are so easy to counter with vikings or voidrays; ultras are terribly slow off creep and only good in combination with infestors(but we dont have unlimited gas and need roach/hydra/corruptor before)
most of time i only find myself teching to hire just to get 3/3 and ling upgrades
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
I love reading this as I haven't really seen anyone taking Zerg's disadvantage seriously. Everyone just point to the GSL-winners and say "Terran is the weakest!". I don't base my opinion at all on my own experiences, I try to purely focus on statistics.
Here's a good example: Find the latest Zerg tournament winner (Idra's and Ret's victories are in a show match and a KotH event) :
It's not really a balance thread... but the small maps and being unable to scout most of the times makes the games a coin flip and the shortest stick in that game is for the zerg.
Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote: Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote: Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
You are right I stand corrected . But this argument goes both ways which means that less zerg doesn't mean that it's unbalanced. but I really don't know anymore since everyone is just whining that their race is UP... It's getting tiresome and annoying.
And I agree that you shouldn't stop posting these weekly I enjoy reading them so thanks for posting these and it would be appreciated if you keep doing so :D.
On December 29 2010 18:24 Dente wrote: It's amazing to see zergs still complaining, while terrans just need to allin or 1baseplay. Go 21 CC as terran? Np, zerg will be at your nat around 8:00 with 10 banelings and 30 speedlings. Yesyes, 7 banelings die on 1 bunker, but gratz, there are 30 lings in your nat and more reïnforcements are coming very quickly. Don't put pressure on the zerg? Np, he will be 25+ drones ahead. Zergs are now always 10 or more drones ahead of the terran (same for protoss) and people are still suggesting to nerf mules? Let me explain it: mules are needed for terran to make up for those 10+ more drones / probes. I agree to nerf mules when terran can actually win a 200vs200 fight in tvp. What a complete joke is that. A race that can warp in an entire army in a few clicks wins in a 200vs200 fight against a race that has to wait for his units to come out. By the time they come out, protoss should have finnished the game.
On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote: Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
maybe it was different in scbw but in other rts games you will find the strongest race be the most popular on higher levels
since gaming has changed a lot since scbw i claim that this effect has also caught sc2 especially since its changing rapidly - in my own experience: until gsl2 i had like 7 out of 10 games zvt; after gsl2 the number of zerg mirrors increased a lot and it was like every 2nd game zvz and its easy to guess which race im facing the most now (gsl3)
On December 29 2010 22:33 SoL[9] wrote: EtdGrrr anyone can confirme if is really him?
Idra For what has to read you are going to change protoss if the GSL works bad for you or blizzard dont change things right?
how does that happen i explicitly said in that same post that im probably sticking with z no matter what im just playing some protoss on the side in case things get even worse and blizzard keeps doing nothing. since sc2 is more strategically than mechanically oriented its helpful to play offraces anyway.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
I've seen him leave games at the start against Top 3 times in a row just because it was Top.
On December 29 2010 22:39 koppik wrote: IdrA dropping so much is just mainly due to a huge slump he had like two days ago:
So, it's not particularly worrying.
I somehow feel like this is invading his privacy. Anyone can have bad days in which youre pissed off and may leave prematurely. We have to wait for the patch anyways, cannon wall-ins are getting nerfed and there might be some tweaks regarding the easy wins for terran early game, we don't know yet. IdrA will catch up eventually.
I also think he's more concerned about winning the gsl and not being 1st in the ladder, which doesn't get you any money.
On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote: Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
when does he stream? i've checked like 12 times and it's always offline.
On December 29 2010 22:39 koppik wrote: IdrA dropping so much is just mainly due to a huge slump he had like two days ago:
So, it's not particularly worrying.
I somehow feel like this is invading his privacy. Anyone can have bad days in which youre pissed off and may leave prematurely. We have to wait for the patch anyways, cannon wall-ins are getting nerfed and there might be some tweaks regarding the easy wins for terran early game, we don't know yet. IdrA will catch up eventually.
I also think he's more concerned about winning the gsl and not being 1st in the ladder, which doesn't get you any money.
I think its highly doubtful that Blizzard will do any other change than those we have seen on the PTR.
On December 29 2010 14:51 idonthinksobro wrote: Well anyone who watched Idras stream should know why he is dropping so much. Whenever there is a little blunder he instantly leaves the game and starts a new one. I think people actually start to abuse the fact that he insta leaves after they get cannons/bunkers up.
Its ridicilous how much cheese you see on the Korean ladders - it doenst matter if you watch Huk, Idra or thewind - it seems to be chees-o-rado. No surprise that Terrans are on top of the ladder since they can cheese and recover the easiest.
I agree. He rages way too much before he should. You can't even tell him to not ragequit because those words are insta ban in chat lol. If he doesn't want people to talk about him ragequitting he should stop doing it.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
But Idra we're pros like you too! The man has a point, seen lots of games where a top player quits and I have to think an extra minute or two to realize why it happened.
OT: I wonder why all the foreigner drops? Practicing in customs more than ladder or something?
EDIT: I like how once Idra posts all of a sudden everyone changes opinion.. So ya Idra sucks! He shouldn't rage quit what a newb! ect. ect.
you wonder why a lot of foreigner drops the week of christmas ? :D
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
when does he stream? i've checked like 12 times and it's always offline.
Everytime I see him streaming it's past midnight central time. Since he's in Korea and I'm never up past midnight on the weekdays, he's probably streaming at like 3 or 4 in the morning.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
when does he stream? i've checked like 12 times and it's always offline.
Check his twitter he always tweets when the stream goes up. Twitter.com/idrajit ( i think)..that should give you a good idea of the times he streams.
Maybe Idra would get a wider range of experience if he stayed in games he knew he would lose but were reasonably close. He needs to get better at stopping cheese/all-ins anyway if he wants to become a true S-class Bonjwa.
On December 30 2010 01:59 0neder wrote: Maybe Idra would get a wider range of experience if he stayed in games he knew he would lose but were reasonably close. He needs to get better at stopping cheese/all-ins anyway if he wants to become a true S-class Bonjwa.
What is the point in "learning how to stop cheese/all-in" after it has already been executed?
Once the bunker/cannons are up, the learning opportunity is over. Your only option at that point is to attempt to claw your way back into a game from a majorly disadvantaged position. This might be decent for practicing your "playing on the fly" ability, but for refining small parts of your game and keeping yourself in a positive mind-frame, this will do nothing but ruin your vibe.
I really wish every random noob would stop telling the guy who makes money off of SC2 how he should be playing the game...
On December 30 2010 01:59 0neder wrote: Maybe Idra would get a wider range of experience if he stayed in games he knew he would lose but were reasonably close. He needs to get better at stopping cheese/all-ins anyway if he wants to become a true S-class Bonjwa.
What is the point in "learning how to stop cheese/all-in" after it has already been executed?
Once the bunker/cannons are up, the learning opportunity is over. Your only option at that point is to attempt to claw your way back into a game from a majorly disadvantaged position. This might be decent for practicing your "playing on the fly" ability, but for refining small parts of your game and keeping yourself in a positive mind-frame, this will do nothing but ruin your vibe.
I really wish every random noob would stop telling the guy who makes money off of SC2 how he should be playing the game...
Exactly. If you have already failed to stop the cheese staying on is rather pointless. From then on your opponent should win and only way for him to not win is to make some massive mistake. This isn't really improving your play though since all you are doing is relying on his mistake. Far better to just go into the next game and try stop the cheese.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I don't know if I would say im impressed with MK's win %. I'm more interested that his style of play can produce that high of a win percentage. I don't know if massing out zealots or zerglings would be nearly as effective no matter how well I controlled them.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard.
It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup.
On December 30 2010 02:15 takingbackoj wrote: I don't know if I would say im impressed with MK's win %. I'm more interested that his style of play can produce that high of a win percentage. I don't know if massing out zealots or zerglings would be nearly as effective no matter how well I controlled them.
I am curious on MK's strat vs protoss. I mean I feel like marine micro vs zerg pays off way more than it does vs toss. In GSL i wasn't really impressed when he played MC. I mean MK relies on micro and lets be honest here, toss vs terran is pretty much a attack
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard.
It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup.
Thing is, when you win that much your match making increases HUGE. I'm like 2500 Terran in NA and opened an EU account like a month ago. I remember going like 12-0 and even though i was only like 400 plat I was playing 2000k diamonds already
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
Clearly your 3rd person experience is worth more than Idra's right? Grow up , please.
On December 29 2010 20:52 RvB wrote: Without touching any balance I just wanted to add that you can't expect zerg to have as many players in the top 200 as Protoss and Terran for the simple fact that zerg has less players. If we would only go by statistics the percentage of zerg that's in the top 200 is fine but I don't know about zerg tournament wins.
Anyway the best we can do is wait for Blizzard and see what they will do about perceived balance issues.
In SCBW, Protoss is by far the most popular race, yet they have had the least amount of top players in the world for a long time. Popularity doesn't matter at all for the top 200, when will people realize this? If anything, the less popular race is getting more practice against the other races, and should be performing better at the top.
Terrans and Zergs have always outnumbered protoss players in Korea Im pretty sure,the number of active P progamers has always been lower.
Pretty sure its only the foriegn scene that had more Ps than T/Z :o
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard.
It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup.
Lmao, you've got to be fucking kidding me. The MAJORITY of the top 200 are top sc2 players, Foxer having a 72% winrate against people at the same caliber is nothing like a pro-gamer on iccup - it is the equivalent of someone like Flash playing a shitload of A-teamers in proleague. It's pretty fuckin amazing.
I was wondering if IdrA or Ret tryed the beta with the new pheonix time build. They come way faster and it might be another problem for zerg in the long run.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining.
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
if you read his post, he doesnt want to switch because he has invested so much time into zerg already.
dont try to tell progamers what to do. it doesnt help anyone.
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
Let's be honest idra could spawn with 3 probes and 3 scvs and he'd complain about how OP zerg is. I'm sure he doesn't really think that zerg is "fucking awful" but zerg is obviously the most frustrating race to play BY FAR and when someone like IdrA plays that race you're gonna hear about it (and for good reason in my biased zerg opinion).
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
Let's be honest idra could spawn with 3 probes and 3 scvs and he'd complain about how OP zerg is. I'm sure he doesn't really think that zerg is "fucking awful" but zerg is obviously the most frustrating race to play BY FAR and when someone like IdrA plays that race you're gonna hear about it (and for good reason in my biased zerg opinion).
I think every race is the most frustrating to play at certain points. Like zerg and protoss vs terran your always gunna be pissed at those early MM timing pushes but when as terran and protoss gets their death army and you went MMM you really get pissed because they kinda just drop storms on everything (or that's the general opinion of terrans). Or TvZ when zerg gets that early expand and then just either masses banelings or mutas and it almost feels like there's nothing you can do because either the banelings just run at your army and the onus is on you to be the good player in the game and actually micro and try and save all your army from them or they are running around with their mutas doing damage and you just know in your mind while you busy chasing around mutas he's grabbing expos left right and center. And EVERY mirror is frustrating.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
Can't buff lings, that would make ZvZ a disaster and Z all-ins way too strong. Also, it would make a ton of team game strats incredibly overpowered, and apparently Blizzard cares a lot about that as proven by the reaper nerfs. Can't change creep spread and larva inject mechanics either, those are integral parts of Z mechanics.
Buffing queens seems most doable, but it would also be a nerf to fast air builds.
I think the real problems with Z's early game stem more from scouting/base design problems. Something seems off when T gets both the best early game scouting and early game base defense while Z gets neither.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
Wow what a terrific post, man. You really showed him!
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining.
Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing.
PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!"
On December 30 2010 04:44 Krigwin wrote: Wow what a terrific post, man. You really showed him!
Because he showed anyone anything with his post, right? Except the typical QQ that plagues these forums by idiots that think they watched someone play perfect or exceptional despite only watching the POV from one player. Every Zerg stream you're in you see people bitching about Zerg being UP. But if you go to someone like Sjow's stream all of a sudden Terran is retardedly UP and can't do shit vs Zerg. Go to Huk's and you'll see people complaining as well. It's all about how they "can't do anything vs their opponent." Everything is extreme. It's stupid.
On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote: Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
it translates to hell lion if that helps at all.
He's 1 point away from #1 on KR ladder!
God I wanna see more of his game lol, if any of the TL guys can maybe find out who he is or rumored to be that would be great!
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining.
Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing.
PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!"
You obviously have no idea how the game works as your post shows that you cant comprehend its mechanics and their requirements. Ill leave you alone, its obvious trying to change your mind would be a waste of time.
Yeah every race is frustrating but I think Zerg is probably the most annoying to play because the annoying things happen in the first 2 minutes of the game and they happen all the time. When I play toss and lose to a good Zerg who took over the whole map, at least I lost to a good Zerg. When I play Z and lose to a cannon rush... I lost to any 8 or 9 year old that can watch a replay. Pretty annoying.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining.
Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing.
PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!"
You obviously have no idea how the game works as your post shows that you cant comprehend its mechanics and their requirements. Ill leave you alone, its obvious trying to change your mind would be a waste of time.
Cannot comprehend? I was in the top 200 as a Zerg user for a number of months, but thanks kiddo.
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are?
will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it.
i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
Can't buff lings, that would make ZvZ a disaster and Z all-ins way too strong. Also, it would make a ton of team game strats incredibly overpowered, and apparently Blizzard cares a lot about that as proven by the reaper nerfs. Can't change creep spread and larva inject mechanics either, those are integral parts of Z mechanics.
Buffing queens seems most doable, but it would also be a nerf to fast air builds.
I think the real problems with Z's early game stem more from scouting/base design problems. Something seems off when T gets both the best early game scouting and early game base defense while Z gets neither.
agreed. buffing lings would have some issues. Changing spread and larva can be tweaked, but i guess that would need to be tested so im not sure.
Queens ground attack can be buffed so they actually do damage vs ground units and can help much more in defense, and air can remain unchanged.
Agreed that scouting and spines suck, and are the core of the issue. However im just throwing out other ideas outside of increasing ovie speed and buffing spines (reduced cost, faster attack, more hp, etc).
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
i dont think a minor hp buff to lings would be game breaking or imbalanced at any stage of the game, except for MAYBE 6 pool rushes.
lings melt so fast anyways later on i dont see how a small hp buff would break things.
xel'naga towers show me when hes 3/4 to 1/2 way to my base, hardly enough time. especially when you need an extra overlord or are short on larva.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
I hope you mean the "ignorant" people, not the entire community.
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
Yup I agree.
Although I haven't watched his stream but I'm sure he knows when he should quit or not. And it's not whether he may be able to win still, but whether it's worth playing considering if he will improve efficiently or not.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways.
Yea but Protoss also need better scouting, I guess hallucination time and obs cost is a moving in the right direction. Terran I'm not sure, think they have good enough?
On December 30 2010 05:10 Krigwin wrote: Wait, is this NEXTaeJa guy JiTaeHoon (sp?)? The ghost guy? And is NEXLuffy the Luffy? I'm assuming this Violet guy isn't the actual Violet.
It isn't really about buffing any one unit, that is what people don't get. The damage is already done just by the terran showing up, or even pretending like he is going to show up and then leaving.
People have learned how to not die to the early push, and terran players aren't trying to win the game with that attack early. They are just setting it up so that they have such a lead that the zerg has to spend the rest of his time catching up, and to do that you have to drone, and that sets up the next push which is actually the one that ends the game.
You have to change the risk reward of the early game terran, not eliminate it. Take zerg for example, you can 6 pool, and if it fails to do enough damage(scouted and walled off, etc) you are way far behind. It is a high risk high reward strategy. Take proxy gates, if scouted you are so far behind especially if you lose those gates and have nothing back at your base. Again, high risk high reward. The terran early game push, when you factor in salvaging bunkers, mules, the strength of scvs, and their ability to defend the counter the risk reward is way off. There is little risk and high reward with that strategy. If it fails, terran is not screwed. They simply move on to whatever else it is they want, maybe a bit behind then if they didn't but easily overcome.
So things like salvaging a bunker and getting full value back. That to me is the dumbest thing ever. I've never seen an RTS game that allowed some sort of sell back/salvage where you got full value. That doesn't even make sense, I wish real life worked like that so I could salvage my car and get full value instead of $400 when it breaks down(which will probably be any day). That is an example of something that is creating an imbalance to the risk reward because you can try to bunker and if it doesn't work simply get all your money back. Could you imagine if you could make lings, hold off an attack, and then turn 2 lings back into the hatch in exchange for 1 larva and 50 minerals?
Another thing could be decreasing queen build time. Right now the value of taking out the zergs queen(s) early game is game changing. Having to remake a 150 mineral queen which takes a while to build... another example of well worth the risk to take out a queen even if you lose 6 marines and 2 or 3 scvs. You can't take out toss chrono boost early game, you can't stop a terran from getting mules, but you can cut off zerg's mechanic.
I don't really have the exact solution, these are just some example, but simply put right now that ratio is just so out of whack early game. It is more than just making X unit stronger to stop the attack, that risk/reward ratio has to be in balance.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways.
Yea but Protoss also need better scouting, I guess hallucination time and obs cost is a moving in the right direction. Terran I'm not sure, think they have good enough?
Eh, they kind of do. Not as desperately, by any means. Keep in mind scans don't see everything either, so if you miss, you're kinda screwed (equivalent to the ovie situation). Although yeah, they're already implementing cheaper obs and faster hallu. I liked the idea someone had of making sentries detect anything under their guardian shield, or something of that sort. Would make toss also less vulnerable to banshee cheese, although it still would be a fairly shitty counter, but more so a method to buy time and not be 100% helpless until you can pop out a robo and obs.
On December 29 2010 15:33 dtz wrote: well it varies from person to person.
If i am not wrong, Morrow also practices that way. He said something like if he sent his overlord the wrong way, he leaves the game straightaway because a decent player would have killed it. Or if he loses like a few more lings than usual, he surrendered in ladder.Probably it's a good idea if you wanna refine your strategy or mechanics like Morrow did when he just switched.
Some people like HuK i think delays his gg for quite a while.
That said, in tournament games it is probably worth it to play on regardless of the situation. if FD had this fast gg mindset, he would not be GSL 1 champ because he would have gg-ed in game 3 against oGsTOP. So, It's probably good to practice playing from a sure lose situation
This is just ladder though so probably why some doesnt bother if they think the game is decided.
I don't think they quit because the game is decided, but rather because, as you said, they want to refine their play, and focus on playing perfectly early game, rather than to stretch out in a 2 hour game, where their initial mistake is forgotten.
I think nada would rise upp immensly if blizzard incorporated larger maps, as imho he's probably the only one who can out macro a zerg without crazy aggression ^^ I think Jinro would benefit quite a bit by the "leave if mistake" thing, as he seems to do alot of small mistakes during a game (losing track of drops etc), but is saved by his awesome overall strategic sence.
On December 30 2010 05:15 FLuE wrote: So things like salvaging a bunker and getting full value back. That to me is the dumbest thing ever. I've never seen an RTS game that allowed some sort of sell back/salvage where you got full value. That doesn't even make sense, I wish real life worked like that so I could salvage my car and get full value instead of $400 when it breaks down(which will probably be any day). That is an example of something that is creating an imbalance to the risk reward because you can try to bunker and if it doesn't work simply get all your money back. Could you imagine if you could make lings, hold off an attack, and then turn 2 lings back into the hatch in exchange for 1 larva and 50 minerals? .
The most hilarious part of this is that also concerning bunkers, say you just held off a push, and your bunker is about to burn, it's often more efficient to just salvage and rebuild and spend the resources on repairing. At the same time, say you started a bunker and realized you don't need it, but it's almost finished, it's once again more efficient to let the bunker finish building and then salvage it.
Personally, I think you should need an SCV to salvage bunkers (Make it an SCV command). Makes more sense to me, it wouldn't affect the "build a shitton of bunkers to fend off all-in" mentality, and it would directly nerf bunker rushes. That or not let a bunker salvage which is under attack or on fire.
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
That, and ramp blocks will be patched by then.
Well to my knowledge it needs 3 pylons not 2 in new patch. Will this be a massive change?
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
That, and ramp blocks will be patched by then.
Well to my knowledge it needs 3 pylons not 2 in new patch. Will this be a massive change?
Yeah, actually quite a large change. 100 minerals early game is huge. Often you barely have 200 minerals to wall-off originally, since you typically have to build both pylons simultaneously. If you have to build 3 pylons simultaneously (otherwise he just sends drones down the ramp), I would assume your forge would noticeably be delayed, or if you built the forge first then your 3 pylons delayed, etc. This is theorycraft, however, I haven't played PTR. I'm also wondering if the surface area of one of the pylons might be larger to the point you could break it easier with an additional drone attacking it. At the very least, it would require a larger investment by the Protoss for the same yield, making it more of an all-in play.
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
That, and ramp blocks will be patched by then.
Well to my knowledge it needs 3 pylons not 2 in new patch. Will this be a massive change?
It makes pylon blocking ramps a little bit less awesome but still completely viable. Oddly enough, I have been doing an evo chamber+ spine crawler ramp block to protect against early hellion raids, so this change is actually a nerf to my ZvT game...
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
The worst is it's 10 minutes of knowing you're fucked anyways. Honestly I have 100x more fun laddering when I time my gg's to right around the point I feel like IdrA would gg. To me the 1 percent chance I would somehow pull a win out of my ass (from them running 100 marines into 2 banelings or something) is not worth the other 99 times I get outmacroed and fisted like a two dollar hooker after I get crippled by an early game push.*
So if any other zergs get super pissed off laddering all the time just ask yourselves: WWID?
edit: *or crippled by the protoss player building 3 buildings outside my ramp. Most ridiculously low risk easy to pull off bunch of shit I've ever seen. In fact if I'm not in the mood I will just straight up leave games when they get the pylons up (if i fuck up my drone micro or something).
On December 30 2010 05:24 Numy wrote: Well to my knowledge it needs 3 pylons not 2 in new patch. Will this be a massive change?
I think people will still do it, unfortunately. +100 extra mineral can surely be spent when you already throw down 200, and each cannon costs 150 minerals as it is.
However, I think it will take a much more dedicated form than now. Right now it's mostly containing Zerg while building forces or expanding at home, but when you need to spend 300 minerals for blocking you might as well fortify that with cannons and quick units. People will figure out a build (cutting probe production and all that) that will end game right there.
What will change, though, if the zerg successfully prevent that from happening, then the reward will be bigger.
I feel as banelings might even be a viable option, if you can manage to hit all 3 pylons at the same time, bust out with 5 banelings, supply block him, then go destroy him if he expoed by continuing to bust, or, if not, well I guess you have baneling tech, which sucks vs stalker/sentry but you'd think he's have mostly zealots since he would have delayed his tech by a minimum of 100 minerals :o.
Hey IdrA, why dont you send a well written e-mail to Blizzard, explaining everything you said, possibly with replays, and they might hear you. I mean, you're a pretty big name, right?
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
On December 30 2010 08:40 debasers wrote: Hey IdrA, why dont you send a well written e-mail to Blizzard, explaining everything you said, possibly with replays, and they might hear you. I mean, you're a pretty big name, right?
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
Makaprime I think. It's still pretty fucking strong though :o
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
Let's be honest idra could spawn with 3 probes and 3 scvs and he'd complain about how OP zerg is. I'm sure he doesn't really think that zerg is "fucking awful" but zerg is obviously the most frustrating race to play BY FAR and when someone like IdrA plays that race you're gonna hear about it (and for good reason in my biased zerg opinion).
Or TvZ when zerg gets that early expand and then just either masses
well thats the whole idea because zerg HAS to outexpand you and outmass you, which is much harder to do than wall in and chill with your mmm. i understand it's frustrating for you to get outskilled, but it's a different source of frustration.
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
Let's be honest idra could spawn with 3 probes and 3 scvs and he'd complain about how OP zerg is. I'm sure he doesn't really think that zerg is "fucking awful" but zerg is obviously the most frustrating race to play BY FAR and when someone like IdrA plays that race you're gonna hear about it (and for good reason in my biased zerg opinion).
Or TvZ when zerg gets that early expand and then just either masses
well thats the whole idea because zerg HAS to outexpand you and outmass you, which is much harder to do than wall in and chill with your mmm. i understand it's frustrating for you to get outskilled, but it's a different source of frustration.
Overlord speed upgrade for 75/75 or 50/50 at Hatchery tech would solve most of Zergs problems at the moment, and wouldn't drastically affect the game. I think most Terrans/Protoss would be OK with these changes, especially if they included similar changes to Protoss and Terran as Idra suggested. Easier intel at critical times would greatly reduce the cheese/all-in tendencies I think. Hopefully Blizzard recognizes this as a problem.
On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote: zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game.
Here's a solution for not only your rage, but also for a rage induced short life span and an early balding head: QUIT PLAYING ZERG IF YOU THINK THEY'RE FUCKING AWFUL.
Let's be honest idra could spawn with 3 probes and 3 scvs and he'd complain about how OP zerg is. I'm sure he doesn't really think that zerg is "fucking awful" but zerg is obviously the most frustrating race to play BY FAR and when someone like IdrA plays that race you're gonna hear about it (and for good reason in my biased zerg opinion).
Or TvZ when zerg gets that early expand and then just either masses
well thats the whole idea because zerg HAS to outexpand you and outmass you, which is much harder to do than wall in and chill with your mmm. i understand it's frustrating for you to get outskilled, but it's a different source of frustration.
Incredibly debatable.
I'd go further and say it's plain wrong. Wall off and 'chill' with mmm, in TvZ? What game are you playing?
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch.
Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
On December 30 2010 09:29 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Overlord speed upgrade for 75/75 or 50/50 at Hatchery tech would solve most of Zergs problems at the moment, and wouldn't drastically affect the game. I think most Terrans/Protoss would be OK with these changes, especially if they included similar changes to Protoss and Terran as Idra suggested. Easier intel at critical times would greatly reduce the cheese/all-in tendencies I think. Hopefully Blizzard recognizes this as a problem.
No, it'd have significant more repercussions than you imagine. Besides essentially killing plenty of builds, it'd also significantly increase the strength of Roach or even Hydra timing attacks, by allowing you to easily lay out a creep highway the second lair finishes. You can't really do this without ovie speed as you'd have to have your ovies out forever, leaving them ample time to be sniped.
On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote: Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Hectic, Xel Naga towers see into bases now? That's awesome.
On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote: I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
That, and ramp blocks will be patched by then.
Well to my knowledge it needs 3 pylons not 2 in new patch. Will this be a massive change?
It makes pylon blocking ramps a little bit less awesome but still completely viable. Oddly enough, I have been doing an evo chamber+ spine crawler ramp block to protect against early hellion raids, so this change is actually a nerf to my ZvT game...
On December 30 2010 09:29 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Overlord speed upgrade for 75/75 or 50/50 at Hatchery tech would solve most of Zergs problems at the moment, and wouldn't drastically affect the game. I think most Terrans/Protoss would be OK with these changes, especially if they included similar changes to Protoss and Terran as Idra suggested. Easier intel at critical times would greatly reduce the cheese/all-in tendencies I think. Hopefully Blizzard recognizes this as a problem.
No they will still persist. Idra will still get the same bunker rush build from Boxer he gets each time they play each other. He will still leave the game as usual.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm)
I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit.
fruitdealer made a big post bitching about zvt during his gsl 1 run nestea called out and tvz'd some random korean newbie who said it was easy to hold cheese zvt because its that retarded.
you think they resort to allins nearly every zvp because they want to turn the game into a coinflip vs players worse than them?
You're playing a lot of Protoss? WHAT
You're dead to me..
On a serious note, that is the right thing to do right now, zerg is awful and not worth the stress when you can go beat everyone as toss with ease / shorter games. It's too bad everyone in diamond on the US ladder plays toss so its just PvP
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm)
I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit.
fruitdealer made a big post bitching about zvt during his gsl 1 run nestea called out and tvz'd some random korean newbie who said it was easy to hold cheese zvt because its that retarded.
you think they resort to allins nearly every zvp because they want to turn the game into a coinflip vs players worse than them?
You're playing a lot of Protoss? WHAT
You're dead to me..
On a serious note, that is the right thing to do right now, zerg is awful and not worth the stress when you can go beat everyone as toss with ease / shorter games. It's too bad everyone in diamond on the US ladder plays toss so its just PvP
On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote: Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
it translates to hell lion if that helps at all.
Rofl, I suppose you could translate it like that if you just read that word purely phonetically, but it actually means something equivalent to the Grim Reaper, not "hell lion".
As far as that account goes, many people outside of Korea were guessing that it could be EffOrt based on how good his win/loss ratio is, but that seems rather far fetched.
I've also seen some Koreans saying that it's Prime clan's shared team account. Haven't seen any confirmation on this either.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat).
assuming another player is going to play perfectly is a lot to hope for. I think its a pussy move to auto gg when one thing goes wrong. how games even high level games where someone makes a huge comeback. Stangley i havent seen idra do it many times i wonder why..
On December 31 2010 00:36 woofwoof wrote: assuming another player is going to play perfectly is a lot to hope for. I think its a pussy move to auto gg when one thing goes wrong. how games even high level games where someone makes a huge comeback. Stangley i havent seen idra do it many times i wonder why..
Don't be an idiot. Talking about ladder here. Where you are practicing things not trying desperately to get the win. If you want to hate on Idra go do it elsewhere
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat).
New account, low amount of games played. Most top Koreans can get around a 65-75% win ratio on a new account. It's not easy but it's not special either.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat).
New account, low amount of games played. Most top Koreans can get around a 65-75% win ratio on a new account. It's not easy but it's not special either.
That's the point, most top koreans don't get 75% like MK after 300 games. In fact, NO korean except him can do it, at least no one did it before.
So Zerg is stuck again. Who would have thought that? In mid diamond Zerg feels very comfortable, when the distance to your opponent is large. You possess several advantages. Huge sense of sight due to creep tumours. Good scouting starting with the mid game due to overseers or overlord speed. Huge, flexible production potential because of accumulating larvae. Great map control and scout blocking with speedlings.
Zerg allows to play a nice macro game and Blizzard wanted it that way. They constantly nerf units, which impede Zerg fast expansions.
So the basic framework of the Zerg race has been built, but problems remain.
200 supply deathballs are deathballs. Both Protoss and Terrans can macro up pretty fast, too. Zerg can't threaten anyone with a stealth techtree.
Complaints about the scouting is absurd, though. I don't want perfect information, because neither scbw nor sc2 has ever been a game of perfect information. Hidden techs for instance need to be rewarded. If you supply every race with maphacks, that will be gone.
Terran scans are overvalued. They have to go without an additional mule and the Terran can almost never be sure if he scouted the tech. Protoss is blind until he has the phoenix or an observer. Both a phoenix and a robotics facility opening can set the Protoss back.
Summa summarum all races have their problems with proper scouting.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
Idra picked zerg when zerg was OP and terran was UP so I think this is pretty hypocritical.
the skill ceiling for terran is higher than other races so it is natural that the most skilled players will pick them.
If you have good micro and macro, no reason to not pick terran. Despite zerg being "the macro race" does playing zerg really require more macro ability than terran who need to que up 1 unit at a time to remain efficient?
I
personally I think Z and P are much easier to play than terran in terms of micro and macro but I am not a pro so I don't know for certain, that is just my opinion.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
That's awfully vague. What does Zerg have to practice more than Protoss and Terran and why?
Earlier on in the game, there was a lot of work that had to be done in recognizing certain drone and army timings(this was much more vital to Z than P or T due to the nature of larva), but most all of that has been fleshed out by now. If you don't acknowledge that there is an inherent weakness in the Zerg race, Then what is it that is holding them back? Any balance issues aside, the most glaring cause of failure I've seen in pro games is Zerg scouting. Zerg's have gotten better at responding to the timings of different strategies, they just have no reliable way of gaining information on what strategy to prepare for which throws many of them off and can cause immediate losses. This isn't something that you can just put more time into though. You send your overlord in and you cross your fingers and say "I hope he put his tech in an easily scoutable spot!".
If you add up the games by race on the Korean ladder, you'll see that the top Zerg players already have more games played on average than Terran or Protoss(top 10 for each race, Zerg had 25% more games played than Terran and 15% more than Protoss). I'm just not seeing where practice, instead of maps and game balance is leaving Zergs behind.
On December 31 2010 04:32 frumpylumps wrote: Idra picked zerg when zerg was OP and terran was UP so I think this is pretty hypocritical.
the skill ceiling for terran is higher than other races so it is natural that the most skilled players will pick them.
If you have good micro and macro, no reason to not pick terran. Despite zerg being "the macro race" does playing zerg really require more macro ability than terran who need to que up 1 unit at a time to remain efficient?
I
personally I think Z and P are much easier to play than terran in terms of micro and macro but I am not a pro so I don't know for certain, that is just my opinion.
So I guess that's why most high-level TvZ became marine/SCV fest? You gave me a good laugh.
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch.
Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
maybe increase unit site radius. It seems very small in this game and you have to have your unit in the direct path of the other units to see them coming
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch.
Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
Cloud of speedrays isnt only mobile as fuck but also strong as cunt.
Pardon the language.
I don't play 2v2s but I've heard quite a few times that mass speedray is _the_ >1v1 lategame unit comp.
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch.
Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
maybe not 2v2 specifically but in team games (3v3 or 4v4) i guess the void rays could be pretty deadly. in 1v1 yeah if someone goes voids its easily countered, but in team games its hard to scout that and then counter it effectively. however of course 1v1s are more important. imo they should just balance stuff according to the game type, like balance the voids specifically for team games (or reapers) and then leave them the same in 1v1 if it doesnt need changed. im sure theres some way to do it
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered.
It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch.
Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
If you reach a certain mass Void Rays demolish everything, because they fire so fast. With the increased lvl 1 damage it's even better. At least that's my experience using mass Void Rays only (even against Marine, Stalker, Viking armies).
On December 31 2010 04:32 frumpylumps wrote: Idra picked zerg when zerg was OP and terran was UP so I think this is pretty hypocritical.
the skill ceiling for terran is higher than other races so it is natural that the most skilled players will pick them.
If you have good micro and macro, no reason to not pick terran. Despite zerg being "the macro race" does playing zerg really require more macro ability than terran who need to que up 1 unit at a time to remain efficient?
I
personally I think Z and P are much easier to play than terran in terms of micro and macro but I am not a pro so I don't know for certain, that is just my opinion.
So I guess that's why most high-level TvZ became marine/SCV fest? You gave me a good laugh.
well what do you expect? used to be reapers but zerg cried about that so all terran has left to pressure early with is marine SCV. "pressure or die" that is the terran motto. hellions only work against zergs who make mistakes/don't know how to block it with buildings, queen and spine crawler.
In my opinion he doesn't really deserve anything he getted in SC 2 . It is also a good indicator that the marine is broken as it can get with mule mechanics .
On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote: IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
its exactly what i was going to write. seriously guys its just this. idra doesnt waste time in games that are worthless.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
always such a great manner bear^^. Although I agree with most of this I think its still a lot harder to win in some aspects as zerg compared to the other races, especially at lower levels. To early though to make such broad whine posts as many zergs have though as well.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
always such a great manner bear^^. Although I agree with most of this I think its still a lot harder to win in some aspects as zerg compared to the other races, especially at lower levels. To early though to make such broad whine posts as many zergs have though as well.
Wait, more importantly, why is Morrow's nickname "bear"?
On December 29 2010 22:33 SoL[9] wrote: EtdGrrr anyone can confirme if is really him?
Idra For what has to read you are going to change protoss if the GSL works bad for you or blizzard dont change things right?
how does that happen i explicitly said in that same post that im probably sticking with z no matter what im just playing some protoss on the side in case things get even worse and blizzard keeps doing nothing. since sc2 is more strategically than mechanically oriented its helpful to play offraces anyway.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
Im practising very hard for weeks already, i have very little to do with studies... But right now i am somewhat frustrated, not sure how much longer i can motivate myself to practise alot.
Sure, i agree, there are alot more "good" terran players in europe than there are "good" zerg players. The question is, how much of this is "good" and how much of it is terran. A question to which noone knows the answer of.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
Im practising very hard for weeks already, i have very little to do with studies... But right now i am somewhat frustrated, not sure how much longer i can motivate myself to practise alot.
Sure, i agree, there are alot more "good" terran players in europe than there are "good" zerg players. The question is, how much of this is "good" and how much of it is terran. A question to which noone knows the answer of.
Another question is "why are there so few foreigner zergs?" While there are certainly fewer zerg players overall, the proportion is even more skewed toward t/p at the highest foreigner level. It might not say anything about balance, but I think the answer has something to do with the angst gained from playing (and losing) as zerg. I've seen many top Z's including IdrA, DIMAGA, FruitDealer, and now Darkforce complaining of massive frustration with zerg and as Darkforce has just said it is hard to motivate one's self when in that mind set.
Bullshit is too viable in that game right now, but this will get evened out eventually. I agree with Darkforce that it's frustrating sometimes, because a lot of times it feels like you're losing to inferior players. It is no fun going into a game and almost certainly knowing you are gonna get cheesed or killed with any other all-in strategy. I think the maps are a big deal when it comes to balance. Some of the ramps, cliffs, expo positions or rush distances are just killing some of the races (in most cases it's zerg). Even those balanced maps like meta (top right you can position an overlord in ZvZ to watch both minerals, doesnt work anywhere else) or scrap station (in the right position it takes 2 creep tumors to get the creep down the ramp) are not really balanced. Now they removed shakuras which makes matters even worse.
But I think Blizz realizes that the maps are more or less awful and the next patch will give protoss cannoning zergs in a much harder time. But I'm really clueless when it comes to patching SCV marine all-ins, they even thought about reducing the bunker build time by 5 seconds :S.
Terran: Obviously resembling human race overall. Units have great variety of personalities and even sensuality (Banshee, Ghost). Voice-over is smooth and ear-pleasing. Lots of gimmicks and fun mechanics to try out.
Toss: Elegant unit designs and classy voice-over. Very cool looking, high-tech units with satisfying firepower (Colossi, Void Rays). Neat and tidy buildings. Warp-in mechanism is too cool to resist trying out. Probes are so cute especially when they're pissed. (fish? chicks?)
Zerg: Reminds you of bugs, worms, beggars, monsters, filthy, nasty, squeaks, garbage center, etc. Queen is only sexy if you avoid seeing her portrait in the UI pannel.
Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July, you don't see really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 pros switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
On December 29 2010 14:46 Antoine wrote: 47 (23.5%) ↑3 (1.5%) 81 (40.5%) ↓6 (3.0%) 70 (35.0%) ↑3 (1.5%) 02 (01.0%)
So let's get the obvious out of the way: Terran make up 8 of the top 11 spots.
I liked it better when the top players were all Zerg! And now they're all Terran. At what point were the majority of the top ~20 players ever Protoss? Has that ever even happened?
Rankings have a lot to do with how often you play with that account. None of the top players, literally none of them play completely on their main account.
As much as I think Idra is overrated, he's much better than rank #126 foreigner. He's at least top 10. That shows you how useful this info actually is.
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
always such a great manner bear^^. Although I agree with most of this I think its still a lot harder to win in some aspects as zerg compared to the other races, especially at lower levels. To early though to make such broad whine posts as many zergs have though as well.
the fact that you ever win games is more than enough justification for any amount of whining
On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote: all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200
indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg.
Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win?
I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol)
zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters.
and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army.
if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled.
zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
always such a great manner bear^^. Although I agree with most of this I think its still a lot harder to win in some aspects as zerg compared to the other races, especially at lower levels. To early though to make such broad whine posts as many zergs have though as well.
the fact that you ever win games is more than enough justification for any amount of whining
Lol
On topic i didn't think boxer was ever that high on recent top 200's nice to see him climb and I have been watching huk's stream lately (awesome) and saw him go on a massive win streak and beat IMMVP a couple times :D
why don't they have a hydra speed upgrade, hydras are the best dps unit zerg has. How are we suppose to micro something that is about as fast as a pickle sliding down a window?
While the Zerg QQ is out in full force, and this time, unlike Protoss QQ, is not interrupted and threads aren't closed, let me ask one thing.
Why do people make a conclusion that Protoss is so different than Zerg? Because based on Korean scene, there is very little evidence for that. There's basically 2-3 decent Protoss players, others have hard time making it to top 16 or 8 of GSL.
Every time I watch protoss, the likes of HongunPrime and Choya, supposedly some of the best Protoss players in the world, they look well out of depth against average Terran and sometimes Zerg players. After 5-4 scoreline in Gisado's tournament, there was the famous "This is Protoss!" thing on here. But then, nobody bothered to make the same after 5-0 scoreline in TvP.
Again, please, somebody enlighten me, how on Earth Protoss are doing so much better than Zerg? Remove this past GSL victory of MC (considering none of the Zergs are looking at FDs and NesTea's wins), then you have sweet fuck all.
Protoss either wins by stomping on the opponent, or fails hard and loses just helplessly. Yes, may be the early cannon and warp in pressure makes it hard for Zerg, but Protoss themselves are not setting the world alight.
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
no he wasn't. he played in 2v2's only because he was too mediocre for 1v1's and when those died out he only got a token commemoration game.
The fact remains the same.. he played 2v2 in Pro League.. meaning he was a pro league player. Saying he was mediocre, like he wasn't better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW.
On December 31 2010 16:01 Xxavi wrote: While the Zerg QQ is out in full force, and this time, unlike Protoss QQ, is not interrupted and threads aren't closed, let me ask one thing.
Why do people make a conclusion that Protoss is so different than Zerg? Because based on Korean scene, there is very little evidence for that. There's basically 2-3 decent Protoss players, others have hard time making it to top 16 or 8 of GSL.
Every time I watch protoss, the likes of HongunPrime and Choya, supposedly some of the best Protoss players in the world, they look well out of depth against average Terran and sometimes Zerg players. After 5-4 scoreline in Gisado's tournament, there was the famous "This is Protoss!" thing on here. But then, nobody bothered to make the same after 5-0 scoreline in TvP.
Again, please, somebody enlighten me, how on Earth Protoss are doing so much better than Zerg? Remove this past GSL victory of MC (considering none of the Zergs are looking at FDs and NesTea's wins), then you have sweet fuck all.
Protoss either wins by stomping on the opponent, or fails hard and loses just helplessly. Yes, may be the early cannon and warp in pressure makes it hard for Zerg, but Protoss themselves are not setting the world alight.
You complain about Zerg QQ but continue to rag on about how weak and 'at a disadvantage' Protoss is in this and many other threads, when Protoss has been doing fine both in the % of players in Top 200s and international tournaments. Please stop being so hypocritical.
"Terran takes up 8 of the top 11 spots" WTF is "top 11" for a meassurement? Top 11 US 8 are protoss. And no, I couldn't be bothered reading more after that because you're obviously a biased idiot who's into propaganda
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
no he wasn't. he played in 2v2's only because he was too mediocre for 1v1's and when those died out he only got a token commemoration game.
The fact remains the same.. he played 2v2 in Pro League.. meaning he was a pro league player. Saying he was mediocre, like he wasn't better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW.
Nah ZergBong was literally the worst player to ever be on korean television, he actively made games harder for Reach to win in 2v2s and was the bane of anyone who ever wanted KTF to win. To people who joined because of SC2 he may be indistinguishable from the IrOns and MVPs of the scene, but to anyone who followed proleague during that period, he was the biggest laughing stock around. And saying someone is better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW is remarkably silly given 99.9999% of the world haven't played the game and he certainly wasn't better than 99% of the competitive BW players.
ZergBong is the only zerg I actively want to lose in tournaments, because damnit, no one makes Reach lose. No one!
All i gotta say, Is that zerg units seem incredibly weak. When you compare it. You can have a 200/200 protoss army. Void Ray, Col, Gateway units. Kill a 200/200 Zerg army ( Roach Hyrda Broodlord Curropter Infestor 3/3/3 upgraded, Full upgraedes) with only loosing 20 pop in supply while the zerg looses his entire army. It's kinda hard to win games as zerg late game. (numbers are true, Go test it )
You got the early game pressure from terran with marines and scv's where they can pull 1/2, 1/3, 1/1 their scvs go in with marines and hurt your econmy so badly and recovery quickly with mules. It's again hard to win games early with zerg. (Baneling busts also have become worse with the meta game, Terran players figuring out how to wall with 2 barracks, Protoss players figuring out how to wall with a cybercore + gateway. )
Also in the mid game you got random 6 gateway half saturated bases all-in's to worry about, That can rarely get scouted considering the the time which is happens. it's again hard to win games in the mid game.
What's i'm trying to say, Is in sc2 current meta game. It's extremly hard to win early, mid, and late games as zerg.
That's not true. Zerg is by far the strongest race mid game if you don't get destroyed early game. The 200/200 cap kinda screws Zerg late game, though.
On December 31 2010 13:51 ace246 wrote: People have always been claiming 베스킨라빈스(read as baskinrobins) is marineking, but where is the proof?
I saw on Huk's stream an opponent with that name and the guy said he was MarineKing when Huk asked who he was. With a record like that it also wouldn't be surprising if it was him. He also said he was sorry when Huk said he had done proxy barracks to beat him the last time they played each other. He also played the exact same style as MarineKing in the match so I think it is pretty safe to say that he is indeed the same guy.
On December 31 2010 13:14 Carl_Sagan wrote: Once you convince yourself that your losses are due to the game imbalance, you lose the ability to improve.
The thing is that these pro gamers job is to make money off this game. They may complain about imbalance but the truth is they are still trying 8+ hours a day to figure out how to beat this imbalance.
On December 31 2010 16:01 Xxavi wrote: While the Zerg QQ is out in full force, and this time, unlike Protoss QQ, is not interrupted and threads aren't closed, let me ask one thing.
Why do people make a conclusion that Protoss is so different than Zerg? Because based on Korean scene, there is very little evidence for that. There's basically 2-3 decent Protoss players, others have hard time making it to top 16 or 8 of GSL.
Every time I watch protoss, the likes of HongunPrime and Choya, supposedly some of the best Protoss players in the world, they look well out of depth against average Terran and sometimes Zerg players. After 5-4 scoreline in Gisado's tournament, there was the famous "This is Protoss!" thing on here. But then, nobody bothered to make the same after 5-0 scoreline in TvP.
Again, please, somebody enlighten me, how on Earth Protoss are doing so much better than Zerg? Remove this past GSL victory of MC (considering none of the Zergs are looking at FDs and NesTea's wins), then you have sweet fuck all.
Protoss either wins by stomping on the opponent, or fails hard and loses just helplessly. Yes, may be the early cannon and warp in pressure makes it hard for Zerg, but Protoss themselves are not setting the world alight.
You complain about Zerg QQ but continue to rag on about how weak and 'at a disadvantage' Protoss is in this and many other threads, when Protoss has been doing fine both in the % of players in Top 200s and international tournaments. Please stop being so hypocritical.
Toss is still weakest statistically. Less in top 10 than Z. Less in top 20 than Z. Less tournament wins. Less Wins ZvP as a percentage in Korea. The only thing saving them is oGsMC who is single handily rescuing the race with perfect play.
-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).
I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View:
-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).
I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.
no one was complaining tvp imbalance on a scale to actually consider any imbalances.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard.
It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup.
Never saw anyone else was able to reach top 1(Dec. 7) on Korean ladder after 300 games and had a 73% win ratio.
On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote: Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic
not that hard if you remake an account
Did you seriously just say that 72% win rate is not that hard? Just becuase you remake an account does not mean you can play scrubs for a majority of your games. You will be playing people in the 3k range in NO TIME. Don't be so ignorant please.
I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard.
It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup.
Never saw anyone else was able to reach top 1(Dec. 7) on Korean ladder after 300 games and had a 73% win ratio.
Please show me who else did it before.
That's because EU and NA ladder pale in comparison to the KR one at the top level. The best people are able to get there are ~65% over a large sample size.
On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote: Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting
I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR.
The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption.
Was able to load a few replays, liked what I saw. Unfortunately it's slow as hell for me too
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
no he wasn't. he played in 2v2's only because he was too mediocre for 1v1's and when those died out he only got a token commemoration game.
The fact remains the same.. he played 2v2 in Pro League.. meaning he was a pro league player. Saying he was mediocre, like he wasn't better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW.
Nah ZergBong was literally the worst player to ever be on korean television, he actively made games harder for Reach to win in 2v2s and was the bane of anyone who ever wanted KTF to win. To people who joined because of SC2 he may be indistinguishable from the IrOns and MVPs of the scene, but to anyone who followed proleague during that period, he was the biggest laughing stock around. And saying someone is better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW is remarkably silly given 99.9999% of the world haven't played the game and he certainly wasn't better than 99% of the competitive BW players.
ZergBong is the only zerg I actively want to lose in tournaments, because damnit, no one makes Reach lose. No one!
Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level.
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level.
Second, your logic is circular.
Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead.
On December 31 2010 07:29 koppik wrote: Midway through the beta, Zerg in Korea was way overpowered. Part of that was that a lot of top players played Zerg because it was the strongest race.
Zerg I think is in the reverse of that right now. Other than July], you don't see Really any good BW players going to Zerg like you do Terran or even Protoss in Korea. Similarly, how many WC3 ProS switched to Zerg? Two?
But, yeah, 23% of diamond plays Zerg, and 23% of the top 200 plays Zerg. I don't see how this particular top 200 is disconcerting, especially considering the ratio of Zergs went up this week.
NesTea Was a Proleague player.. maybe not a Player of Boxer or NaDa's quality, but just playing in the Proleague show's he was amongst the best. There are other players too, but it seems to have be mostly Terran or Toss that's crossed over, and sticking with their own races. Jaedong is going through a rough patch atm... someone go tell him to switch over :D That'll help solve any QQ.
no he wasn't. he played in 2v2's only because he was too mediocre for 1v1's and when those died out he only got a token commemoration game.
The fact remains the same.. he played 2v2 in Pro League.. meaning he was a pro league player. Saying he was mediocre, like he wasn't better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW.
Nah ZergBong was literally the worst player to ever be on korean television, he actively made games harder for Reach to win in 2v2s and was the bane of anyone who ever wanted KTF to win. To people who joined because of SC2 he may be indistinguishable from the IrOns and MVPs of the scene, but to anyone who followed proleague during that period, he was the biggest laughing stock around. And saying someone is better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW is remarkably silly given 99.9999% of the world haven't played the game and he certainly wasn't better than 99% of the competitive BW players.
ZergBong is the only zerg I actively want to lose in tournaments, because damnit, no one makes Reach lose. No one!
Now he's like 76% winrate -_-. Really goes to show the relative skill level of the GSL
Although nowhere near Iron and ZergBong for terribleness, MVP getting sent out regularly on a team that included Kwanro, Zero, free and Soulkey was excruciating for me as a Stars fan. Here's his broodwar stats: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/590_MVP
Like so many (I imagine), I'm really curious to see how any current A-class/S-class pro would fair in sc2 (I mean someone maintaining above 50% in the proleague and msl/osl). Would they destroy their opponents like so many die-hard bw fans think? It'd be great to see, if only for an interval, as I don't really wish to see anyone like Kal, Stork, Sea leave the broodwar scene.
^ I highly doubt it. They are S-class because of their game understanding, which will take years for someone to have that comprehensive a skill in SC2.
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level.
Second, your logic is circular.
Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead.
Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees.
Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked.
You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially).
2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes.
Lol. Don't use the top 200 as a measure of balance. That there are 8 out of 11 terrans for the top 11 only means that those players play the most. That's how the ladder works here.
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level.
Second, your logic is circular.
Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead.
Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees.
Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked.
You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially).
2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes.
Please don't make stuff up.
But the thing is a lot of times if you don't 14 hatch you won't have an economy and the other guy can just change his build to grab an expansion and be ahead. Its not like Zerg can apply meaningful pressure effectively in the beginning without going all in.Like if terran goes 2 rax and you go pool first, terran can just bunker expand and be ahead. Or he can 2 rax marine scv still because chances are you wont have enough larva to defend it. Its kind of a stupid position. Same with 7 roach rush for example. 14 hatch speedling is way better equipped to beat it than something like 14gas 14pool because you get a better economy and more larva early on. Pool first just doesnt give u enough of an economy. The most viable is 14gas 14 pool which is what a lot of Zergs have been doing but its really out of necessity and not wanting to lose to cannon rushes and proxies. Anything else hatch first places you in a better position
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View:
-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).
I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.
Correlation does not prove cause.
- Zerg was underpowered not until Fruitdealer won GSL 1, but until reapers and siege tanks were nerfed and roach range was boosted.
- I dont recall too many people outside of egos like Genius saying Protoss was underpowered. Honestly MC showed us is that 4 gate or any well thought out combination of 1 base warpgate / void ray is really awesome vT, not too much going into the mid / late game. IF you look at his games, you'll be surprised how many he wins by 1 basing or at least gaining a significant advantage from 1 base.
- 3rd one you're just making up lol. TvP has been kind to Terrans for a while and most terrans will say its their best matchup. It was imbalanced in Beta and not fixed by players but by a slew of nerfs that weakened warpgates, sentries, etc.
- Zerg is again underpowered because Terrans discovered the 2 rax all in which is extremely hard to deal with or come out ahead with, and has been responsible for most TvZ wins
On January 07 2011 15:11 0neder wrote: ^ I highly doubt it. They are S-class because of their game understanding, which will take years for someone to have that comprehensive a skill in SC2.
That implies that Flash and Jaedong are only great because they are robots who have had the game worked out for them by all the players over it's 10+ year history. There's more to it than that. They're mechanics are unparalleled for one. And as bw strategies continue to evolve, often at the hands of such players as Flash and JD, then I think it's fair to say that they'd have as much strategic insight to offer and be able to garner as much game understanding in the same amount of time that former bw pro's like Zergbong and Foxer have done.
So why wouldn't they be players to be feared if they switched over? I don't believe their skills and talents would translate into immediate results, but given 6 months I see no reason why many of the current top broodwar players wouldn't also dominate sc2.
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View:
-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).
I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.
no one was complaining tvp imbalance on a scale to actually consider any imbalances.
Err, there are a lot of problems with this.
Zerg was still underpowered even after FruitDealer won, he was just the best player at the time. Protoss was never underpowered (only a select few die hard Protoss claimed imbalance whereas the rest claimed unbalance) just hadn't been figured out yet, and still has ways to go. Terran not winning a GSL has nothing to do with whether it's over powered or not. Agreed. Zergs have always been losing to all-ins it's just now recently more attention have been given to them because Zerg are so weak toward them.
On January 07 2011 15:28 TERRANLOL wrote: Lol. Don't use the top 200 as a measure of balance. That there are 8 out of 11 terrans for the top 11 only means that those players play the most. That's how the ladder works here.
Agreed, however at some point you must ask how much of it is attributed to playing a lot vs easier to win.
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View:
-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).
I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.
Zerg was considered underpowered even after Fruit Dealer von GSL1. Fruit Dealer just crushed any Terran because he was 10 times better than all of them, yet he could just barely win his games because Terran didn't suffer huge disadvantage for his mistakes.
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame.
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure.
As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me.
I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most.
You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations.
You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level.
Second, your logic is circular.
Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead.
Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees.
Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked.
You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially).
2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes.
Please don't make stuff up.
This is just wrong, looking at it from a Zerg point of view. 14 Hatch in fact is safer against 2 Rax than Pool first is. What MuseX said is completely right, so don't talk about things you don't know anything about. When playing 14 Pool against 2 Rax you are far more behind than when you play 14 Hatch against it. And even if you can hold it off of one base, you are SO much behind because Terran can easily expand and is 1 Base ahead of you.
On January 07 2011 22:06 SubtleArt wrote: But the thing is a lot of times if you don't 14 hatch you won't have an economy and the other guy can just change his build to grab an expansion and be ahead. Its not like Zerg can apply meaningful pressure effectively in the beginning without going all in.Like if terran goes 2 rax and you go pool first, terran can just bunker expand and be ahead. Or he can 2 rax marine scv still because chances are you wont have enough larva to defend it. Its kind of a stupid position. Same with 7 roach rush for example. 14 hatch speedling is way better equipped to beat it than something like 14gas 14pool because you get a better economy and more larva early on. Pool first just doesnt give u enough of an economy. The most viable is 14gas 14 pool which is what a lot of Zergs have been doing but its really out of necessity and not wanting to lose to cannon rushes and proxies. Anything else hatch first places you in a better position
Just so we're both clear, your argument is as follows:
1) Terran and Protoss can one-base aggress vs. Zerg FE without being at a disadvantage.
2) Zerg cannot one-base aggress vs. Zerg FE without being at a disadvantage.
Do you see the issue here with your logic? Equal skill withstanding, one-base roach expand will beat forge FE every time.
That 14gas/pool is "out of necessity" is mileading at best. ANY TIME you invest in economy and the other player invests in army, you are at a decisive disadvantage if your opponent attacks you. That's just the way this game works. You can't build 40 probes and 3 cannons and fend off 15 roaches.
Likewise, you can't invest in hatch-first and reasonably expect to consistently crush early 2-rax or double gate pressure. This is because YOU invest in economy while your opponent uses those resources to expand his army.
On January 07 2011 22:43 Chise wrote: This is just wrong, looking at it from a Zerg point of view. 14 Hatch in fact is safer against 2 Rax than Pool first is. What MuseX said is completely right, so don't talk about things you don't know anything about. When playing 14 Pool against 2 Rax you are far more behind than when you play 14 Hatch against it. And even if you can hold it off of one base, you are SO much behind because Terran can easily expand and is 1 Base ahead of you.
If the only other option in your decision tree is to 14gas/pool, then the added risk to hatch first is certainly minimal. You're correct in that 14hatch is probably a bit safer than 14gas/pool.
It's not safer than 11pool by any stretch, because 11pool simply produces more larva than your 14hatch will by the time 2-rax or double gate pushes hit.
I've posted a zerg-problematic thing in another topic with a replay and an in-depth analysis of the replay and why I stomped a 3k++ zerg player 7-2 or so with my offrace terran while I'm a huge noob myself. Full topic:
Game 1: Scrap station, TvZ. I open the same way as the Terran I lost to on shakuras (with the exception of also getting cloak and doing 11gas 13rax instead of the more usual 12rax 13gas), making sure he sees my marauder. I move in with 3 banshees, catch his queen out of position and manage to take down the spire before it is completed. He loses the game.
Game 2: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall in at the bottom of my ramp with a depot and a barracks. I don't know about you, but when I see this as a Z I usually expect a 2rax build. Instead, I tried to trick him by doing a banshee build again. He rushes me with roaches and I am unable to defend the bottom wall-in and then my base. I lose the game.
Game 3: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I open 11 gas 13 rax. He sees the reactor and factory building, then steals my gas. I do make hellions but try to go banshee as fast as possible off 1 gas. I got about 40 hp off of his 2nd queen with the hellions, as well as maybe 2 drone kills, before I lost everything to speedlings (he was obviously expecting it). My banshee and follow-up banshees kill him, he complains and leaves the game.
Game 4: Xel'Naga (yes, we got lazy with different maps), TvZ. I blatantly proxy 2 barracks a bit behind the back path to his natural, while he did hatch first. He sends out his scout at 11 (extrac trick build), but it's too late and he loses.
Game 5: Lost Temple, close air positions. I load up 2 medivacs with marines and drop them in his main. He loses the game.
Game 6: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall off the bottom of my ramp with a 12 rax 12 gas. I open with a quick reaper and get 5 drone kills, as he was doing an aggressive roach push again and was still chasing my scout (successfully) out of his base with 2 lings. I spot his warren with my reaper, too, so I bunker in front of my rax and make marauders, after his roach push fails he quits.
Game 7: Lost Temple, close air positions. I do a regular 2 rax, he holds it off and kills me. I lose.
Game 8 is the one I am going to post. It is also on Lost Temple, we are close positions. Here is the replay:
Now I am actually going to walk you through this replay, so I would like it if you would watch this replay (perhaps in window mode?) while having the following text ready, with the timings:
2:20 - he sees 2 barracks going down 2:45 - he sees I have not taken my right gas yet 3:10 - he sees I do not have my left gas yet 3:14 - he checks the other gas again to see if i have maybe taken it, he now knows I have not taken my gas yet, which indicates that I'll most likely be making either a lot of marines or a command center 3:15 - he takes my gas to get the SCV off the drone's tail, then cancels it and scouts the front again 3:33 - he sees 1 marine and still 2 barracks 3:43 - go to his 2nd base (his natural), you'll see he has 3 drones there prematurely and then moves them out a bit to check for SCVs or bunkers. Right now, he's afraid, because he has to decide between making drones and zerglings. Remember: he only saw 1 marine and 2 raxes, if he makes a lot of zerglings and I, instead, make only 1 more marine or so and then a command center, he is pretty far behind. He plays it safe and makes 4 zerglings at 3.56 (open up the production tab in left corner) 3:59 - he makes another set of zerglings (6 total) 4:08 - another set of zerglings (8 total), shortly after he makes ANOTHER set of zerglings. If I had thrown down a command center right then... 4:11 - made a spine crawler (again, imagine if I had gone CC) 4:30 - I want you to pause the game and compare the worker count. Even though I'm doing an extremely aggressive strategy, I'm ahead. Once again, keep in mind what would have happened had I thrown down a CC. 5:15 - he held off the attack, which is to be expected because he prepared for it.
--
Now, the second guessing game begins. What do I do? If I'm going for banshees, he will need to get lair up in case of cloak, and then an overseer. If I'm just going to do a second all-in, he needs a bling nest and speed researched, unless I am retarded and engage on a long creep road. Or am I now throwing down a command center? Had I perhaps already thrown it down? Should he powerdrone? Put units on gas? Have I taken my gas? Will I make banshees? Biopush? Will I add marauders? Hellions? He doesn't know, so he is going to try and find out. Meanwhile, he makes a few drones (and barely catches up, with only 1 or 2 drones ahead).
--
5:27 - he wants to run up my ramp to scout, but is met by 5 marines. So essentially he scouted that I have at least 5 marines there. He plays it safe and runs back, expecting more to come. 6:00 - he realizes that nothing is probably coming and proceeds to take the watch tower for a brief second to be sure 6:08 - takes watch tower, sees nothing 6:09 - moves to my ramp 6:12 - he makes 2 drones, because there is no immediate threat + he has a spine crawler up 6:22 - he runs up the ramp to see if perhaps I was a fucking newb and placed buildings in a place where he could scout it. He sees no additional marines except the ones he saw at 5:27, so he (wrongly) assumes I am doing something that is not another marine all-in. He has just begun mining gas. spending everything on minerals and drones so far (he is 1 worker ahead). 7:12 - he sees me moving out. This is the fastest he could have seen me move out (save perhaps 1 or 2 seconds earlier if he had decided to run up my ramp again at that exact time). I kill him. """"good"""" game.
Game 9, Metalopolis close position. He agreed on playing 1 final game, even though he said (in-game as well) that game 7 would be his last. I proxy a barracks on the high ground at his mensk statue, he went 14 pool and I manage to get 2 bunkers up at the bottom of his ramp. He immediately throws down a spine crawler, but is unable to stop me from taking it down even with queen support. I decide to throw up a cc and switch into marauders as soon as I have the resources, but he already GGs.
EPT
47 (23.5%) ↑3 (1.5%)
81 (40.5%) ↓6 (3.0%)
70 (35.0%) ↑3 (1.5%)
02 (01.0%)
Only Code A next season tho 
![[image loading]](http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/5/66b6fcd8-2d18-4fea-87fd-a33d72608095.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wXNer.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LOUJ6.png)
