Korean top 200 12/28/2010 - Page 14

Chise

Japan507 Posts

January 07 2011 13:43 GMT

#261

On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote:
History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View:

-Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1.
-Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3.
-Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL.
-TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit.
-Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically).

I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something.

Zerg was considered underpowered even after Fruit Dealer von GSL1. Fruit Dealer just crushed any Terran because he was 10 times better than all of them, yet he could just barely win his games because Terran didn't suffer huge disadvantage for his mistakes.

On January 07 2011 15:25 mlbrandow wrote:

Show nested quote +

Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees.

Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked.

You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially).

2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes.

Please don't make stuff up.

This is just wrong, looking at it from a Zerg point of view. 14 Hatch in fact is safer against 2 Rax than Pool first is. What MuseX said is completely right, so don't talk about things you don't know anything about. When playing 14 Pool against 2 Rax you are far more behind than when you play 14 Hatch against it. And even if you can hold it off of one base, you are SO much behind because Terran can easily expand and is 1 Base ahead of you.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

January 07 2011 22:39 GMT

#262

On January 07 2011 22:06 SubtleArt wrote:
But the thing is a lot of times if you don't 14 hatch you won't have an economy and the other guy can just change his build to grab an expansion and be ahead. Its not like Zerg can apply meaningful pressure effectively in the beginning without going all in.Like if terran goes 2 rax and you go pool first, terran can just bunker expand and be ahead. Or he can 2 rax marine scv still because chances are you wont have enough larva to defend it. Its kind of a stupid position. Same with 7 roach rush for example. 14 hatch speedling is way better equipped to beat it than something like 14gas 14pool because you get a better economy and more larva early on. Pool first just doesnt give u enough of an economy. The most viable is 14gas 14 pool which is what a lot of Zergs have been doing but its really out of necessity and not wanting to lose to cannon rushes and proxies. Anything else hatch first places you in a better position

Just so we're both clear, your argument is as follows:

1) Terran and Protoss can one-base aggress vs. Zerg FE without being at a disadvantage.

2) Zerg cannot one-base aggress vs. Zerg FE without being at a disadvantage.

Do you see the issue here with your logic? Equal skill withstanding, one-base roach expand will beat forge FE every time.

That 14gas/pool is "out of necessity" is mileading at best. ANY TIME you invest in economy and the other player invests in army, you are at a decisive disadvantage if your opponent attacks you. That's just the way this game works. You can't build 40 probes and 3 cannons and fend off 15 roaches.

Likewise, you can't invest in hatch-first and reasonably expect to consistently crush early 2-rax or double gate pressure. This is because YOU invest in economy while your opponent uses those resources to expand his army.

On January 07 2011 22:43 Chise wrote:
This is just wrong, looking at it from a Zerg point of view. 14 Hatch in fact is safer against 2 Rax than Pool first is. What MuseX said is completely right, so don't talk about things you don't know anything about. When playing 14 Pool against 2 Rax you are far more behind than when you play 14 Hatch against it. And even if you can hold it off of one base, you are SO much behind because Terran can easily expand and is 1 Base ahead of you.

If the only other option in your decision tree is to 14gas/pool, then the added risk to hatch first is certainly minimal. You're correct in that 14hatch is probably a bit safer than 14gas/pool.

It's not safer than 11pool by any stretch, because 11pool simply produces more larva than your 14hatch will by the time 2-rax or double gate pushes hit.

the p00n

Netherlands615 Posts

January 11 2011 22:33 GMT

#263

I've posted a zerg-problematic thing in another topic with a replay and an in-depth analysis of the replay and why I stomped a 3k++ zerg player 7-2 or so with my offrace terran while I'm a huge noob myself. Full topic:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179585

Zerg-relevant text from that topic (for the replay analysis look at the 8th game):

+ Show Spoiler +

Game 1: Scrap station, TvZ. I open the same way as the Terran I lost to on shakuras (with the exception of also getting cloak and doing 11gas 13rax instead of the more usual 12rax 13gas), making sure he sees my marauder. I move in with 3 banshees, catch his queen out of position and manage to take down the spire before it is completed. He loses the game.

Game 2: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall in at the bottom of my ramp with a depot and a barracks. I don't know about you, but when I see this as a Z I usually expect a 2rax build. Instead, I tried to trick him by doing a banshee build again. He rushes me with roaches and I am unable to defend the bottom wall-in and then my base. I lose the game.

Game 3: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I open 11 gas 13 rax. He sees the reactor and factory building, then steals my gas. I do make hellions but try to go banshee as fast as possible off 1 gas. I got about 40 hp off of his 2nd queen with the hellions, as well as maybe 2 drone kills, before I lost everything to speedlings (he was obviously expecting it). My banshee and follow-up banshees kill him, he complains and leaves the game.

Game 4: Xel'Naga (yes, we got lazy with different maps), TvZ. I blatantly proxy 2 barracks a bit behind the back path to his natural, while he did hatch first. He sends out his scout at 11 (extrac trick build), but it's too late and he loses.

Game 5: Lost Temple, close air positions. I load up 2 medivacs with marines and drop them in his main. He loses the game.

Game 6: Xel'Naga, TvZ. I wall off the bottom of my ramp with a 12 rax 12 gas. I open with a quick reaper and get 5 drone kills, as he was doing an aggressive roach push again and was still chasing my scout (successfully) out of his base with 2 lings. I spot his warren with my reaper, too, so I bunker in front of my rax and make marauders, after his roach push fails he quits.

Game 7: Lost Temple, close air positions. I do a regular 2 rax, he holds it off and kills me. I lose.

Game 8 is the one I am going to post. It is also on Lost Temple, we are close positions. Here is the replay:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/120113-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple

Now I am actually going to walk you through this replay, so I would like it if you would watch this replay (perhaps in window mode?) while having the following text ready, with the timings:

2:20 - he sees 2 barracks going down
2:45 - he sees I have not taken my right gas yet
3:10 - he sees I do not have my left gas yet
3:14 - he checks the other gas again to see if i have maybe taken it, he now knows I have not taken my gas yet, which indicates that I'll most likely be making either a lot of marines or a command center
3:15 - he takes my gas to get the SCV off the drone's tail, then cancels it and scouts the front again
3:33 - he sees 1 marine and still 2 barracks
3:43 - go to his 2nd base (his natural), you'll see he has 3 drones there prematurely and then moves them out a bit to check for SCVs or bunkers. Right now, he's afraid, because he has to decide between making drones and zerglings. Remember: he only saw 1 marine and 2 raxes,
if he makes a lot of zerglings and I, instead, make only 1 more marine or so and then a command center, he is pretty far behind. He plays it safe and makes 4 zerglings at 3.56 (open up the production tab in left corner)
3:59 - he makes another set of zerglings (6 total)
4:08 - another set of zerglings (8 total), shortly after he makes ANOTHER set of zerglings. If I had thrown down a command center right then...
4:11 - made a spine crawler (again, imagine if I had gone CC)
4:30 - I want you to pause the game and compare the worker count. Even though I'm doing an extremely aggressive strategy, I'm ahead. Once again, keep in mind what would have happened had I thrown down a CC.
5:15 - he held off the attack, which is to be expected because he prepared for it.

--

Now, the second guessing game begins. What do I do? If I'm going for banshees, he will need to get lair up in case of cloak, and then an overseer. If I'm just going to do a second all-in, he needs a bling nest and speed researched, unless I am retarded and engage on a long creep road. Or am I now throwing down a command center? Had I perhaps already thrown it down? Should he powerdrone? Put units on gas? Have I taken my gas? Will I make banshees? Biopush? Will I add marauders? Hellions? He doesn't know, so he is going to try and find out. Meanwhile, he makes a few drones (and barely catches up, with only 1 or 2 drones ahead).

--

5:27 - he wants to run up my ramp to scout, but is met by 5 marines. So essentially he scouted that I have at least 5 marines there. He plays it safe and runs back, expecting more to come.
6:00 - he realizes that nothing is probably coming and proceeds to take the watch tower for a brief second to be sure
6:08 - takes watch tower, sees nothing
6:09 - moves to my ramp
6:12 - he makes 2 drones, because there is no immediate threat + he has a spine crawler up
6:22 - he runs up the ramp to see if perhaps I was a fucking newb and placed buildings in a place where he could scout it. He sees no additional marines except the ones he saw at 5:27, so he (wrongly) assumes I am doing something that is not another marine all-in. He has just begun mining gas. spending everything on minerals and drones so far (he is 1 worker ahead).
7:12 - he sees me moving out. This is the fastest he could have seen me move out (save perhaps 1 or 2 seconds earlier if he had decided to run up my ramp again at that exact time). I kill him. """"good"""" game.

Game 9, Metalopolis close position. He agreed on playing 1 final game, even though he said (in-game as well) that game 7 would be his last. I proxy a barracks on the high ground at his mensk statue, he went 14 pool and I manage to get 2 bunkers up at the bottom of his ramp. He immediately throws down a spine crawler, but is unable to stop me from taking it down even with queen support. I decide to throw up a cc and switch into marauders as soon as I have the resources, but he already GGs.

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