EPTKorean top 200 12/28/2010 - Page 13
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Denizen[9]
United States649 Posts
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View: -Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically). I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something. no one was complaining tvp imbalance on a scale to actually consider any imbalances. | ||
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
On December 30 2010 02:16 zerious wrote: I meant for a top player that it wouldn't be hard. It's like BW pro-gamer smurfing and destroying everyone on Iccup. Never saw anyone else was able to reach top 1(Dec. 7) on Korean ladder after 300 games and had a 73% win ratio. Please show me who else did it before. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On January 02 2011 06:40 bearhug wrote: Never saw anyone else was able to reach top 1(Dec. 7) on Korean ladder after 300 games and had a 73% win ratio. Please show me who else did it before. That's because EU and NA ladder pale in comparison to the KR one at the top level. The best people are able to get there are ~65% over a large sample size. | ||
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote: Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting  I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR. oGsCarmel(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/424 oGsVicaL(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/422 SKit(T) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/419 Enjoy! The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption. Was able to load a few replays, liked what I saw. Unfortunately it's slow as hell for me too  | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 02 2011 03:32 leakingpear wrote: Nah ZergBong was literally the worst player to ever be on korean television, he actively made games harder for Reach to win in 2v2s and was the bane of anyone who ever wanted KTF to win. To people who joined because of SC2 he may be indistinguishable from the IrOns and MVPs of the scene, but to anyone who followed proleague during that period, he was the biggest laughing stock around. And saying someone is better than 99% of the rest of the world at BW is remarkably silly given 99.9999% of the world haven't played the game and he certainly wasn't better than 99% of the competitive BW players. ZergBong is the only zerg I actively want to lose in tournaments, because damnit, no one makes Reach lose. No one! Indeed. Zergbong was absolutely atrocious. MC was pretty god awful too though, here's what his Brood war career looks like: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/640_IrOn Now he's like 76% winrate -_-. Really goes to show the relative skill level of the GSL | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure. As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me. I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most. You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On January 03 2011 19:48 Elean wrote: Even if 2 players with different races and the same skill level have 50% chance against each others, zerg is still at disadvantage with the current metagame. The reason is that zerg is the race that is the most likely to loose to cheese, and is also the race that has the less possibility for early pressure. As a consequence a zerg player is likely to loose against a weaker player, and cannot really steal a game against a stronger player. When I play TvZ or PvZ, I cheese when the opponent is favored and play standard when I'm favored. That's simple and works quite well for me. I don't think zerg is underpowered, but there is still a balance issue. There are also some balance issues with the other races, but with the current cheesy megatame it looks like zerg suffer the most. You can note that many zerg complaining about balance don't ask for a zerg buff, or a terran/protoss nerf, but just less rock/paper/scissor situations. You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level. Second, your logic is circular. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2984 Posts
Is that GiYoM ? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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MuseX
United States20 Posts
On January 06 2011 20:19 mlbrandow wrote: You made quite the sweeping generalization there. A zerg player is only more likely to lose to cheese if they hatch-first. At least one of the top 11 (JunwiPirme) has had a lot of success with 1-base roach lately, so I don't want to hear about how not-fast-expand isn't viable at high level. Second, your logic is circular. Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On January 03 2011 14:43 SubtleArt wrote: Indeed. Zergbong was absolutely atrocious. MC was pretty god awful too though, here's what his Brood war career looks like: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/640_IrOn Now he's like 76% winrate -_-. Really goes to show the relative skill level of the GSL Although nowhere near Iron and ZergBong for terribleness, MVP getting sent out regularly on a team that included Kwanro, Zero, free and Soulkey was excruciating for me as a Stars fan. Here's his broodwar stats: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/590_MVP Like so many (I imagine), I'm really curious to see how any current A-class/S-class pro would fair in sc2 (I mean someone maintaining above 50% in the proleague and msl/osl). Would they destroy their opponents like so many die-hard bw fans think? It'd be great to see, if only for an interval, as I don't really wish to see anyone like Kal, Stork, Sea leave the broodwar scene. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On January 07 2011 13:21 MuseX wrote: Hatch first is safer than pool first. Cheese by terran and protoss is just as effective if zerg is on 1 base. 1 base play like junwi is also bad because if terran or protoss stays on 1 base also, they will always be ahead. Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees. Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked. You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially). 2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes. Please don't make stuff up. | ||
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TERRANLOL
United States626 Posts
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:25 mlbrandow wrote: Don't say things that are flatly incorrect, and then not even defend them. It seems as though you're just repeating what you read without any inkling of the logic behind the decision trees. Any time you invest in economy over army, you are taking a gamble because you are investing in something that won't net you a return for some period of time in the future. Yes you need larva. No you don't need them at 14 supply. Earlier pool will net you more larva than double hatch until you can drone up, and you won't be able to do that while you're being attacked. You see a lot of pros doing hatch first against all kinds of aggression because they have enough micro to be able to survive it, and if they do, they are okay. If that aggression doesn't come, their greediness pays off immensely. It has nothing to do with being safer and everything to do with being economically better (potentially). 2-rax and double-gate, roach rushes and other aggression builds are specifically designed to punish greedy FE'ing players. This works because one player invests in army while the other invests in economy, and that economic investment simply doesn't pay for itself when the attack comes. Please don't make stuff up. But the thing is a lot of times if you don't 14 hatch you won't have an economy and the other guy can just change his build to grab an expansion and be ahead. Its not like Zerg can apply meaningful pressure effectively in the beginning without going all in.Like if terran goes 2 rax and you go pool first, terran can just bunker expand and be ahead. Or he can 2 rax marine scv still because chances are you wont have enough larva to defend it. Its kind of a stupid position. Same with 7 roach rush for example. 14 hatch speedling is way better equipped to beat it than something like 14gas 14pool because you get a better economy and more larva early on. Pool first just doesnt give u enough of an economy. The most viable is 14gas 14 pool which is what a lot of Zergs have been doing but its really out of necessity and not wanting to lose to cannon rushes and proxies. Anything else hatch first places you in a better position | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On January 02 2011 05:52 Greentellon wrote: History of SC2 balance, community Point Of View: -Zerg was "underpowered" until FruitDealer won GSL1. -Protoss was "underpowered" until oGsMC showed up and conquered GSL3. -Terran was "overpowered"...still hasn't won a GSL. -TvP was "imbalanced"...until TOP beat MC in a 4-0 match. Suddenly TvP – A Terran’s view -threads tone changed quite a bit. -Now zerg is again "underpowered" because they seem to be losing again (to all-ins, specifically). I see a pattern here. I'm not saying all complants are invalid, just pointing out something. Correlation does not prove cause. - Zerg was underpowered not until Fruitdealer won GSL 1, but until reapers and siege tanks were nerfed and roach range was boosted. - I dont recall too many people outside of egos like Genius saying Protoss was underpowered. Honestly MC showed us is that 4 gate or any well thought out combination of 1 base warpgate / void ray is really awesome vT, not too much going into the mid / late game. IF you look at his games, you'll be surprised how many he wins by 1 basing or at least gaining a significant advantage from 1 base. - 3rd one you're just making up lol. TvP has been kind to Terrans for a while and most terrans will say its their best matchup. It was imbalanced in Beta and not fixed by players but by a slew of nerfs that weakened warpgates, sentries, etc. - Zerg is again underpowered because Terrans discovered the 2 rax all in which is extremely hard to deal with or come out ahead with, and has been responsible for most TvZ wins | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:11 0neder wrote: ^ I highly doubt it. They are S-class because of their game understanding, which will take years for someone to have that comprehensive a skill in SC2. That implies that Flash and Jaedong are only great because they are robots who have had the game worked out for them by all the players over it's 10+ year history. There's more to it than that. They're mechanics are unparalleled for one. And as bw strategies continue to evolve, often at the hands of such players as Flash and JD, then I think it's fair to say that they'd have as much strategic insight to offer and be able to garner as much game understanding in the same amount of time that former bw pro's like Zergbong and Foxer have done. So why wouldn't they be players to be feared if they switched over? I don't believe their skills and talents would translate into immediate results, but given 6 months I see no reason why many of the current top broodwar players wouldn't also dominate sc2. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4560 Posts
On January 02 2011 06:34 GobIin wrote: no one was complaining tvp imbalance on a scale to actually consider any imbalances. Err, there are a lot of problems with this. Zerg was still underpowered even after FruitDealer won, he was just the best player at the time. Protoss was never underpowered (only a select few die hard Protoss claimed imbalance whereas the rest claimed unbalance) just hadn't been figured out yet, and still has ways to go. Terran not winning a GSL has nothing to do with whether it's over powered or not. Agreed. Zergs have always been losing to all-ins it's just now recently more attention have been given to them because Zerg are so weak toward them. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4560 Posts
On January 07 2011 15:28 TERRANLOL wrote: Lol. Don't use the top 200 as a measure of balance. That there are 8 out of 11 terrans for the top 11 only means that those players play the most. That's how the ladder works here. Agreed, however at some point you must ask how much of it is attributed to playing a lot vs easier to win. | ||
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