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Morrow and Sjow Matchfixing? - Page 35

Forum Index > SC2 General
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arctics86
Profile Joined December 2008
Germany797 Posts
December 22 2010 13:31 GMT
#681
One Question:

If one of them leads 8-7, the other one can just stop participating... no need for match-fixing and they would get the computer (if they are better then the oher players of course)
genai
Profile Joined July 2009
Croatia78 Posts
December 22 2010 13:34 GMT
#682
On December 22 2010 22:26 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:23 Shikyo wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:20 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:18 Shikyo wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:07 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:
In SSBM back when I played competitively, I've split prices with the other finalist like 4 times without actually playing the finals. I think it's really nice and no one really loses anything, it's like having 2 winners.


This thread really brings out the worst out of people

Again to everybody out there:

This is NOT....repeat this is NOT about splitting up the prize-money of a SINGLE event. The tournament host decided to give away a computer in case somebody manages to win 11 times out of 18. The tournament host OWNS the frickin computer it is his choice to either give it away or not. Now he decided to give it to a person who manages to WIN 11 tournaments. It's not like the winner of a single event gets 10 grand the loser nothing and both decide to split it up.
It's amazing how people manage to not understand this very simple thing.

Civilized societies have a word for this: fraud.

Huh? Worst out of people?

If the tournament system is so incredibly stupid that one person needs to win multiple tournaments, it makes perfect sense that when both you and your friend make it to the finals, you'll let the same person win every time. I don't think there's anything wrong with that(assuming no coverage), and it wouldn't be a big deal in most other competitive games. SC scene just overreacts to this stuff, to me it's perfectly logical.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAAF_Golden_League#Jackpot_winners

Now go ahead and call the IAAF "incredibly stupid" for making a system where one person that wins multiple events gets a special jackpot.
Would be perfectly ok if the best athletes agreed to let one win all the events and split up the big pot afterwards, wouldn't it?

No, because there's coverage. I think I covered this... If there's some sort of coverage you can't do these kinds of things for obvious reasons. If there is a stream or something similiar of the tournament, then feel free to ignore all my posts because coverage makes it so that you shouldn't do these kind of things.


This is ridiculous.

Why on earth do you think are you "allowed" to scam a sponsor just because nobody watches? It's the money of the tournament host/sponsor (his frickin property), he can decide how he wants to give it away, or if at all. If he wants to make absurd rules, fine, it's his money, he can do whatever he wants with it. If he states that the special jackpot goes to the player who wins most games by 6-pooling, it's his damn right. You, on the other hand, are not forced to participate if you don't like it.

Audience has nothing to do with this...like...at all.


because sponsor and organizers made it possible and legal? why is that so hard to understand? players dont have any obligation towards the sponsors, tournament organizer has, and they came up with the faulty system that will hurt both sponsors and players... so you can stop jumping on players for doing what they are supposed to do in situation like that! and that is not to go against your own well being to please someone who didnt give you anything, and you dont owe them anything! sponsors profit from good players being there by getting more coverage, organizers profit from getting more sponsors because there are more good players, and players profit from more sponsors by getting more prizes... and organizers decided to put players into spot where they have to choose between their own well being and organizers + sponsors well being... and you blame players for choosing the right way????
DND_Enkil
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden598 Posts
December 22 2010 13:36 GMT
#683
On December 22 2010 22:31 VoirDire wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:26 DND_Enkil wrote:
the only reason the officials themselves are condemning the players is to give rise to the scandal, gain approval in the community, and gain a ton of free publicity
I doubt they were originally going to punish the players for asking a question


Just want to point out that as far as i know the officials have not in any way condemed they players. The owner Budak made a statement that matchfixing was not allowed and players doing it would get banned when asked about it by Rakaka.se but he did not say anything at all about MoRRoW os Sjow. More like he was clarifying the rules for everyone.

Rakaka.se interpreted Budaks statement with:

Sjorrow-gate!
They may get banned for life.
EXTRA! Sjorrow-gate is condemned by Anton Budak.


Well yeah, that are the headlines... But honestly, how many times have you seen aftonbladet use totally ridiulous headlines aswell? It is there to attract attention and make people click it, if you read the article after clicking it paints a different picture than the headline. It is pretty common for all news-media, i dont exactly like it but having some insight in the buisness that is how it pretty much has to be done if you want to be competetive and attract readers.
"If you write about a sewing needle there is always some one-eyed bastard that gets offended" - Fritiof The Pirate Nilsson
Frankon
Profile Joined May 2010
3054 Posts
December 22 2010 13:36 GMT
#684
On December 22 2010 22:31 arctics86 wrote:
One Question:

If one of them leads 8-7, the other one can just stop participating... no need for match-fixing and they would get the computer (if they are better then the oher players of course)

Well this way would be way better. The other could always say that something come up and withdrew from rest of tourney series.

It's still a bit disrespectfull but that would be way better.

And about no spectators. You believe they cleared the whole place for the players to play? There would always be bystanders (not to mention cs players) their friends and fans watching and cheering.
Askesis
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
December 22 2010 13:37 GMT
#685
On December 22 2010 22:23 Cor Aut Mors wrote:
Show nested quote +
How do you have so much inside information on this situation?

How do you you know exactly what happened, how they and the tournament staff got in contact about this situation, and the opinions of the players and the tournament staff?


your right I dont and some is specualtion
but is has been stated on here earlier that the players did approach the officials prior to the tournament regarding their plan
and, we were shown that sjowe did not see anything wrong with what they were trying to do

and that, originally, on WoW the official of the tournament didnt completely disregard the idea and didnt call for immediate banishment

ya the feelings of each are specualtions by me, but based on the information given, it seems pretty accurate

It was stated by Sjow in this thread that they and the tournament staff talked about the situation. It was not clear if they went and asked the tournament staff if they could do it (as if there were any chance they would allow it?), or if the tournament staff approached them about it. All the statements saying they went directly to them and asked came from people not involved in the situation.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 13:40:35
December 22 2010 13:38 GMT
#686
On December 22 2010 22:34 genai wrote:
sponsors profit from good players being there by getting more coverage


Exactly - and sponsors won't profit if the players make a mockery of events.

I won't write any more on this, TotalBiscuit has said everything that needs to be said. It's embarassing to see how narrow-minded huge parts of the esports-scene still are that they fail to realize how much stuff like this hurts the whole concept of competitive e-sports.
Not simply on a "moral" level but on a "monetary" level.

Do you really think any sponsor who reads this stuff will think "hey, cool stuff this SC2, I'll put my money into it to get good promotion for my products".
Really?
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
December 22 2010 13:38 GMT
#687
They aren't splitting the prize.

# of wins - Prize

1 - 250kr (25€) gift certificate
2 - Steelseries Mousepad
3 - Steelseries headphones (XAI/7H, pick one out of the 2)
4 - Steelseries Keyboard
5 - Tony Hawk SHRED (PS3 game)
6 - Guitar Hero: Warroirs of rock (PS3 game)
7 - DJ Hero 2
8 - 21,5" Phillipcs LCD monitor
9 - Intel core i5-750 (+mobo, "Sweclockers recomend")
10 - Intel Core i7-908x (+mobo, "Worlds fastest CPU")
11 - HP Z800 computer, valued 40 000kr (4 000€)


The more you win, the better the prize. If both of them made it to the final, they were going to throw the match, so one guy gets all the wins. It's unfair for other competitors, unfair for the tournament organizers, and unfair for the fans.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
DND_Enkil
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden598 Posts
December 22 2010 13:39 GMT
#688
On December 22 2010 22:34 genai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:26 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:23 Shikyo wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:20 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:18 Shikyo wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:07 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:
In SSBM back when I played competitively, I've split prices with the other finalist like 4 times without actually playing the finals. I think it's really nice and no one really loses anything, it's like having 2 winners.


This thread really brings out the worst out of people

Again to everybody out there:

This is NOT....repeat this is NOT about splitting up the prize-money of a SINGLE event. The tournament host decided to give away a computer in case somebody manages to win 11 times out of 18. The tournament host OWNS the frickin computer it is his choice to either give it away or not. Now he decided to give it to a person who manages to WIN 11 tournaments. It's not like the winner of a single event gets 10 grand the loser nothing and both decide to split it up.
It's amazing how people manage to not understand this very simple thing.

Civilized societies have a word for this: fraud.

Huh? Worst out of people?

If the tournament system is so incredibly stupid that one person needs to win multiple tournaments, it makes perfect sense that when both you and your friend make it to the finals, you'll let the same person win every time. I don't think there's anything wrong with that(assuming no coverage), and it wouldn't be a big deal in most other competitive games. SC scene just overreacts to this stuff, to me it's perfectly logical.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAAF_Golden_League#Jackpot_winners

Now go ahead and call the IAAF "incredibly stupid" for making a system where one person that wins multiple events gets a special jackpot.
Would be perfectly ok if the best athletes agreed to let one win all the events and split up the big pot afterwards, wouldn't it?

No, because there's coverage. I think I covered this... If there's some sort of coverage you can't do these kinds of things for obvious reasons. If there is a stream or something similiar of the tournament, then feel free to ignore all my posts because coverage makes it so that you shouldn't do these kind of things.


This is ridiculous.

Why on earth do you think are you "allowed" to scam a sponsor just because nobody watches? It's the money of the tournament host/sponsor (his frickin property), he can decide how he wants to give it away, or if at all. If he wants to make absurd rules, fine, it's his money, he can do whatever he wants with it. If he states that the special jackpot goes to the player who wins most games by 6-pooling, it's his damn right. You, on the other hand, are not forced to participate if you don't like it.

Audience has nothing to do with this...like...at all.


because sponsor and organizers made it possible and legal? why is that so hard to understand?


Exept... It is not legal.
"If you write about a sewing needle there is always some one-eyed bastard that gets offended" - Fritiof The Pirate Nilsson
TheBanana
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway2183 Posts
December 22 2010 13:40 GMT
#689
On December 22 2010 22:28 Askesis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I'm going to leave one post on this and one alone.

This kind of bullshit harms the reputation of eSports and sets the cause of getting it taken seriously by sponsors, spectators and the world as a whole back.

This same thing happened at the i41 finals. The two finalists agreed to split the pot, went random, played lazy games because there was no competitive drive there and made a mockery of the tournament. They did this for £5000, a larger prize than this laptop. The fact that there was not more of a stink thrown about it is ridiculous. There is a reason prizes are tiered, to ensure there is a strong incentive to play to the best of your ability in order to win the larger prize.

If you are not willing to play in the spirit of the tournament, do not play at all. I personally find this behaviour extremely distasteful and harmful to the scene as a whole. The fact that people are siding with the players on this issue rather than the sponsors just goes to show how little people really understand about the synergy between sponsors and players, required to create a successful eSports scene. The behaviour of both players is deplorable, particularly in the language they used, it is embarrassing. It is good that one of them stepped out of the tournament but the fact that some people don't see the problem with this behaviour is mindboggling and shows a fairly clear bias towards the players, which has no rational basis.

Well put. The thing that really gets to me is how so many of the people in the thread are siding with the players. Perhaps it's just the early sample size, but the proportion is alarming so far.


The reason I'm siding with the players is because of the information I've been given.
This quote right here pretty much covers what my take is:


On December 22 2010 22:13 VoirDire wrote:
Let's say it's day 18 and you are in the finals with your friend. Your friend has won 10 tournaments. If you win, you'd get a €25 gift certificate. If your friend wins, he'd get a computer worth €4000 (and a €25 gift certificate).

Like someone said before me, it's an clear case of the prisoners dilemma. In that scenario, I would seriously be ashamed if i won the last game instead of my friend.


According to this the incentive is not to win as TotalBiscuit is saying, it's to lose.
Why would I prize-block my friend for nothing?
If you're not getting better faster than everybody else, you're getting worse.
Cor Aut Mors
Profile Joined December 2010
United States6 Posts
December 22 2010 13:43 GMT
#690
It was stated by Sjow in this thread that they and the tournament staff talked about the situation. It was not clear if they went and asked the tournament staff if they could do it (as if there were any chance they would allow it?), or if the tournament staff approached them about it. All the statements saying they went directly to them and asked came from people not involved in the situation.


the tournament might allow it
if they dont, one top player leaves and theres less recognition for the tournament itself

your probably right about the rest, im just goin based on what the rest of the forum says and tried to make a counterpoint towards all those raving mad about the situation

truth is, we dont know the truth and it is way to early to banish them
Confirmed by Mythbusters
vdale
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1173 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 13:43:57
December 22 2010 13:43 GMT
#691
On December 22 2010 22:40 TheBanana wrote:
[...]
Why would I prize-block my friend for nothing?


That's right. Nobody would do this. I don't understand why the people are so mad about it.
lastreason
Profile Joined May 2010
Romania250 Posts
December 22 2010 13:43 GMT
#692
oh don't worry guys things like this hapened before and will happen again , cause sc2 doesnt have a kespa
VoirDire
Profile Joined February 2009
Sweden1923 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 13:47:44
December 22 2010 13:44 GMT
#693
On December 22 2010 22:36 DND_Enkil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:31 VoirDire wrote:
Rakaka.se interpreted Budaks statement with:

Sjorrow-gate!
They may get banned for life.
EXTRA! Sjorrow-gate is condemned by Anton Budak.


Well yeah, that are the headlines... But honestly, how many times have you seen aftonbladet use totally ridiulous headlines aswell? It is there to attract attention and make people click it, if you read the article after clicking it paints a different picture than the headline. It is pretty common for all news-media, i dont exactly like it but having some insight in the buisness that is how it pretty much has to be done if you want to be competetive and attract readers.


My point is that rakaka.se (and aftonbladet btw) are shitty sources of news. They don't report news, they invent news and blow small things into giant proportions using sensationalism. I have some insight in news reporting myself, that's why I get so upset.

You don't have to do that to attract readers. Just look at teamliquid.
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
December 22 2010 13:44 GMT
#694
On December 22 2010 22:40 TheBanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:28 Askesis wrote:
On December 22 2010 22:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I'm going to leave one post on this and one alone.

This kind of bullshit harms the reputation of eSports and sets the cause of getting it taken seriously by sponsors, spectators and the world as a whole back.

This same thing happened at the i41 finals. The two finalists agreed to split the pot, went random, played lazy games because there was no competitive drive there and made a mockery of the tournament. They did this for £5000, a larger prize than this laptop. The fact that there was not more of a stink thrown about it is ridiculous. There is a reason prizes are tiered, to ensure there is a strong incentive to play to the best of your ability in order to win the larger prize.

If you are not willing to play in the spirit of the tournament, do not play at all. I personally find this behaviour extremely distasteful and harmful to the scene as a whole. The fact that people are siding with the players on this issue rather than the sponsors just goes to show how little people really understand about the synergy between sponsors and players, required to create a successful eSports scene. The behaviour of both players is deplorable, particularly in the language they used, it is embarrassing. It is good that one of them stepped out of the tournament but the fact that some people don't see the problem with this behaviour is mindboggling and shows a fairly clear bias towards the players, which has no rational basis.

Well put. The thing that really gets to me is how so many of the people in the thread are siding with the players. Perhaps it's just the early sample size, but the proportion is alarming so far.


The reason I'm siding with the players is because of the information I've been given.
This quote right here pretty much covers what my take is:


Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:13 VoirDire wrote:
Let's say it's day 18 and you are in the finals with your friend. Your friend has won 10 tournaments. If you win, you'd get a €25 gift certificate. If your friend wins, he'd get a computer worth €4000 (and a €25 gift certificate).

Like someone said before me, it's an clear case of the prisoners dilemma. In that scenario, I would seriously be ashamed if i won the last game instead of my friend.


According to this the incentive is not to win as TotalBiscuit is saying, it's to lose.
Why would I prize-block my friend for nothing?


If you didn't want to prize-block your friend, you should simply not participate in the tourney. Participating and then throwing the match gives your friend a free win, cheats the tournament sponsors of a prize that wasn't legitimately won, and robs the fans of a good match to watch. It's bad sportsmanship.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
maliceee
Profile Joined August 2010
United States634 Posts
December 22 2010 13:46 GMT
#695
Its wrong, and I'd feel bad, but i would give the win to a friend in this situation. I'd feel worse if I didn't
Perscienter
Profile Joined June 2010
957 Posts
December 22 2010 13:47 GMT
#696
On December 22 2010 22:43 lastreason wrote:
oh don't worry guys things like this hapened before and will happen again , cause sc2 doesnt have a kespa

As if Kespa, FIFA, UEFA or any other professional organization would not encounter similar problems.
genai
Profile Joined July 2009
Croatia78 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 13:58:36
December 22 2010 13:48 GMT
#697
On December 22 2010 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 22:34 genai wrote:
sponsors profit from good players being there by getting more coverage


Exactly - and sponsors won't profit if the players make a mockery of events.

I won't write any more on this, TotalBiscuit has said everything that needs to be said. It's embarassing to see how narrow-minded huge parts of the esports-scene still are that they fail to realize how much stuff like this hurts the whole concept of competitive e-sports.
Not simply on a "moral" level but on a "monetary" level.

Do you really think any sponsor who reads this stuff will think of "hey, cool stuff this SC2, I'll put my money into it to get good promotion for my products".
Really?


again, its not on players to please the sponsor... its organizers duty to their sponsors... its organizers duty to attract more good players to benefit their sponsors, and therefor get more sponsors! yet they come up with the system that makes players not play or "cheat", as people put it... and then you blame players for trying to both play and not hurt themselves (all within the rules)...

yea, damn those players for not hurting themselves so some other guys can benefit from them! brilliant idea!!!
so again... organizers made players choose between themselves and sponsors/organizer!
choices for players: 1. hurt myself and hurt organizer + sponsor but help friend (not play at all)
2. hurt myself, hurt my friend, but help sponsors and organizers (just play)
3. help myself, help friend, hurt sponsors and organizers (earn yourself the right to NOT win by getting to the finals and then forfeiting... if you cant defeat me to get to the finals, you didnt earn the right to win or lose it... so other players are not getting hurt, if i win 9 and my friend 9 or i win 10 and my frined 8 or i win all 18, its all the same to the 3rd guy that never got to the finals)

choice is obvious to me... 3 if possible (they found out it isnt), then 1... and never 2! so not really players fault at all
NKzs
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada102 Posts
December 22 2010 13:49 GMT
#698
On December 22 2010 22:38 KevinIX wrote:
They aren't splitting the prize.

Show nested quote +
# of wins - Prize

1 - 250kr (25€) gift certificate
2 - Steelseries Mousepad
3 - Steelseries headphones (XAI/7H, pick one out of the 2)
4 - Steelseries Keyboard
5 - Tony Hawk SHRED (PS3 game)
6 - Guitar Hero: Warroirs of rock (PS3 game)
7 - DJ Hero 2
8 - 21,5" Phillipcs LCD monitor
9 - Intel core i5-750 (+mobo, "Sweclockers recomend")
10 - Intel Core i7-908x (+mobo, "Worlds fastest CPU")
11 - HP Z800 computer, valued 40 000kr (4 000€)


The more you win, the better the prize. If both of them made it to the final, they were going to throw the match, so one guy gets all the wins. It's unfair for other competitors, unfair for the tournament organizers, and unfair for the fans.

I don't understand how that's unfair at all. They would clearly need to be the top players in order to make it that far, so it's as if one guy is saying to the other, here take the PC I don't need it. It's not as though the officials are the ones fixing a match, it's the players themselves, and if they have the skill to be able to fix it in the first place, then they should be allowed to. If someone has an issue with it, win the tournament? It was already mentioned that the tournament won't be broadcasted in front of a big audience, so there's no letdown with a "faked" match being played.
No matter how much you shake and dance, the last drop always goes down your pants.
MisterPuppy
Profile Joined August 2010
161 Posts
December 22 2010 13:51 GMT
#699
the only big deal here is that they were stupid enough to think people couldn't read their stream. its like two guys planning a heist over facebook status.
froGGifyre
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States213 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 13:56:19
December 22 2010 13:53 GMT
#700
spare me the details look at the action. and sjow, i liked you i thought! And if it was all fine, why did they even worry about if someone could read the stream. because its dishonest and wrong. You guys get laddered all day on stream, what makes you think that you'll roll this tourney? meh lame
channel PanK since '00 twitter.com/froggifyre twitch.tv/froggifyre
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