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One thing that hasnt been pointed out enough imo is that it is unfair to the sponsors/organizers.
The rule says that the comp is given awy only if one player wins 11 finals. If not, no computer is given away. So matchfixing takes away the option that there is no computer to be given to any player.In a fair competition, the two finalists should try hard to win 11 final games, which is not easy.
Matchfixing in this case ruins the whole thought behind the tournaments system.
It is NOT the same as if there was a single finals with fixed price money, which both of them agree to share after the finals.
My oppinion about the actual two players:
I dont like that they think about doing something like this. And I dont think it makes them look smart when they discuss this while being on stream. Personally I think both should be banned from this specific tournament, now that it is all public.
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Huge blunder by morrow and Sjow, my respect for them has really reached an all time low right now.
You just don't do this against your team, your sponsors, your fans and the very competitive spirit, its completely false.
Just because they happen to be friends doesn't change any of this, its still absolutely ridicilous that they try to defend themselves.
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On December 22 2010 21:52 genai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:38 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise? I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np? I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it. asking if something very common in plenty of sports and games is ok is not exactly the same as asking if something 100% banned everywhere is ok now is it? Have you ever played MTG online? if there is a tourny, you should never try to watch replay of the finals, because it lasts 10 seconds! one guy concedes, and they share the prize now, since its really ok to assume that it might be allowed, because its allowed in many other sports/games, asking if its ok "here" is not bad and should never be regarded as bad, because there is no mention of it in the rules even if they did it and it wasnt prohibited by the rules, there is nothing bad about it... them asking about it is actualy very positive thing, since they didnt have to, it would be on tournament organisiers to take the blame and change the rules afterwards unless you think that doing something that was prefectly legal at the time, but 10 years later is illegal should get you arrested... but if you do, you are retarded
It's obviously not allowed for them to just forfeit and give the prize to one of them. How stupid do you have to be to think that?
"ok we'll have a tournament but if you dont wanna play just all agree on who gets $6k."
Wait, that makes no sense.
They knew they were cheating a little bit. If they didnt then i really dont know what to say.
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On December 22 2010 21:56 Sewi wrote:
One thing that hasnt been pointed out enough imo is that it is unfair to the sponsors/organizers.
The rule says that the comp is given awy only if one player wins 11 finals. If not, no computer is given away. So matchfixing takes away the option that there is no computer to be given to any player.In a fair competition, the two finalists should try hard to win 11 final games, which is not easy.
Matchfixing in this case ruins the whole thought behind the tournaments system.
It is NOT the same as if there was a single finals with fixed price money, which both of them agree to share after the finals.
My oppinion about the actual two players:
I dont like that they think about doing something like this. And I dont think it makes them look smart when they discuss this while being on stream. Personally I think both should be banned from this specific tournament, now that it is all public.
so because the touranment organisers didnt put a rule that this isnt alowed, they should be 'fair' enough to play for real and not get a computer just to please some people who think that they are the moral police and settle for a lesser prize while they can get a bigger and better prize without braking any rules ?
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On December 22 2010 21:31 floor exercise wrote:
These two aren't exactly criminal masterminds are they?
I don't think they are particularly devious I just think they are kind of dumb. If they didn't want to get in eachothers way in the tournament one of them shouldn't have entered. Conversely if one wins over the one he could just ship the prize to him rather than manipulate the outcome of the games and look like a shady competitor that people may not want anything to do with in the future.
Mostly I am just shocked at how stupid Morrow is. Why even bring that up on your stream? What is wrong with this kid
And that's exactly what they did (bolded part). MorroW didn't enter since the first way they suggested wasn't allowed.
Wich in turn makes it very likely that SjoW will win 11 tournaments, and at thesame time, halving the ammount of big competition so that some unknown player has twice the chance of winning a tournament.
Win win win for everyone but the tournament host?
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Don't worry morrow, and Sjow I still like you guys, people talking and have no idea what even happened!
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On December 22 2010 21:59 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:52 genai wrote:On December 22 2010 21:38 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise? I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np? I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it. asking if something very common in plenty of sports and games is ok is not exactly the same as asking if something 100% banned everywhere is ok now is it? Have you ever played MTG online? if there is a tourny, you should never try to watch replay of the finals, because it lasts 10 seconds! one guy concedes, and they share the prize now, since its really ok to assume that it might be allowed, because its allowed in many other sports/games, asking if its ok "here" is not bad and should never be regarded as bad, because there is no mention of it in the rules even if they did it and it wasnt prohibited by the rules, there is nothing bad about it... them asking about it is actualy very positive thing, since they didnt have to, it would be on tournament organisiers to take the blame and change the rules afterwards unless you think that doing something that was prefectly legal at the time, but 10 years later is illegal should get you arrested... but if you do, you are retarded It's obviously not allowed for them to just forfeit and give the prize to one of them. How stupid do you have to be to think that? "ok we'll have a tournament but if you dont wanna play just all agree on who gets $6k." Wait, that makes no sense. They knew they were cheating a little bit. If they didnt then i really dont know what to say.
how is it cheating to throw a game ??
so if you just dont feel like playing a certain day, be it for wahtever reson, you should get punnished for it ??
its not like they signed a contract with the tournament that they will play their best in all the games
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This is extremely common practice in some other tournaments and I don't see anything wrong with it. In SSBM back when I played competitively, I've split prices with the other finalist like 4 times without actually playing the finals. I think it's really nice and no one really loses anything, it's like having 2 winners.
I believe that the SC scene just overreacts to the korean Scandal, this really didn't feel like anything bad in my opinion. The only reason would be ruining coverage, but if there was none, then I don't really understand.
EDIT: Btw it makes sense to do it that way if they wouldn't get anything if each won like half the finals and so on. Also, if there is some sort of coverage like streams etc, just ignore my post since that wouldn't hold true.
Oh btw and there's been people throwing games in WCG for forever and people don't make such a huge deal like banning Stork or whatever. I really think people overreact once again.
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On December 22 2010 21:52 dakalro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:23 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 20:03 dakalro wrote:On December 22 2010 19:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 19:38 dakalro wrote:
The only cheating here was from the tournament organizers. Bloody marketing ploy, get 2 great players, advertise a huge prize and make rules/games so nobody can with it. Shame on the cafe for doing this shit. I would have thought of the same thing in a heartbeat had I been friends with the only other person that could win the tournaments.
If MorroW and Sjow are close enough in skill but way ahead of everyone else in the tournament then the chances are that together they'd win the majority of rounds. Being even would mean there would be an extremely low chance of anyone actually going home with the only reason they'd even agree to be there.
The fact that in the first round of the tournament only one of them played is proof enough the "leaks" occured before any games were even played and so did the talk with the organizers (and they would have been dumb to let the players fix a winner for something they didn't want to give away).
For something not casted and with no spectators that is rigged against the players from the start I would have said fuck em and go for the prize, maybe next time they would think twice before trying to get money out of 2 players' names and pay nothing for it.
This is not players trying to cheat the community, this is sponsors trying to cheat the players for free publicity without actually giving anything in return. So organizers should just lower the prize pool and just take away any possible prizes? Will that make you happy? They offer a very good prize, and all you can do is complain? They clearly state that the computer will be given away if someone can win 11 of 18 tournaments. I think everybody knows that winning 11 of 18 is a very hard task. You are acting like they pulled some kind of bait-and-switch when the prize and winning conditions are clearly stated. The only victims here are people who are the victims of their own stupidity. If someone thought winning 11 of 18 tournaments would be easy, that is their own dumb fault. There is no prize pool, it was never intended to give the 4k PC away, it's there just for show, to attract the 2 pros and a ton of idiot customers. That's the entire point of it. Put on the huge fireworks show, present some huge diamond to attract the crowd, get the money and run, no actual cost for it. It may not be bait and switch exactly but it's damn close to it, chances of someone winning 11/18 with 2 huge favorites and chance that they would lose 1-2 finals are so small it's worth the risk. How do you think casinos make money? Think about it this way. The chance that one of them would get the PC at even skill is once every 2k+ tournaments like this ....................................................... First of all, you are acting like the 6k computer is the only prize, and that if you don't win 11 of the 18 tournaments, you don't get anything. This isn't true, but even if it was, SO WHAT? That's the way they structured the tournament, that's the way they advertised it, and everybody knows what to expect. If you want to play in the tournament, do it. If you don't feel the format is worth it, then don't play in them. Where does it come into play that players have the right to cheat the tournament because they don't like the structure? This is a tournament that they are voluntarily playing. People have this sense of entitlement when they really aren't owed a damn thing. And casinos make money because of math. They have a slight edge in all of their games, so even though many times people will walk out of the casino winners on the night, the casino will always win in the long run. However, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with this thread, to be honest. This is about math also, exactly like in a casino. They'd have to make tournaments like this for hundreds of years for a chance to actually give out the grand prize ONCE to be high enough. WTH, do you actually think one internet cafe/chain would actually put up $6k in prizes when most tournaments are for <$500 ... It's 2k total for 18 tournament rounds + 4k for the PC from what I understood ... you do the math and check the logic. I understand everything you are saying, but I fail to see the problem.
They state the facts, the structure, everything clearly. It's not like they are hiding thinks in small print on the back of the card. Everything is stated clearly. It's not as if the flyer says "GIVING AWAY 6k COMPUTER!!" and then when they get there they are like "lol yea, if you win 11 tournaments".
They are not misleading in any way. It's up for the players to decide if it's an event that they wish to enter. They don't have the right to take it upon themselves to game the system however they see fit.
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As far as I understand it, the computer is some sort of a bonus prize, not a guaranteed, so match-fixing here is pretty nasty
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On December 22 2010 21:59 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:52 genai wrote:On December 22 2010 21:38 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise? I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np? I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it. asking if something very common in plenty of sports and games is ok is not exactly the same as asking if something 100% banned everywhere is ok now is it? Have you ever played MTG online? if there is a tourny, you should never try to watch replay of the finals, because it lasts 10 seconds! one guy concedes, and they share the prize now, since its really ok to assume that it might be allowed, because its allowed in many other sports/games, asking if its ok "here" is not bad and should never be regarded as bad, because there is no mention of it in the rules even if they did it and it wasnt prohibited by the rules, there is nothing bad about it... them asking about it is actualy very positive thing, since they didnt have to, it would be on tournament organisiers to take the blame and change the rules afterwards unless you think that doing something that was prefectly legal at the time, but 10 years later is illegal should get you arrested... but if you do, you are retarded It's obviously not allowed for them to just forfeit and give the prize to one of them. How stupid do you have to be to think that? "ok we'll have a tournament but if you dont wanna play just all agree on who gets $6k." Wait, that makes no sense. They knew they were cheating a little bit. If they didnt then i really dont know what to say.
it is perfectly obvious and allowed in MANY MANY other games and sports to do so, why do you think that its obviously not allowed in here if its not prohibited by the rules? why are you pulling stuff out of your ass?
i congratulate them for being too honest for their own good cause they really didnt have to ask about it
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On December 22 2010 22:02 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:59 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:52 genai wrote:On December 22 2010 21:38 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise? I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np? I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it. asking if something very common in plenty of sports and games is ok is not exactly the same as asking if something 100% banned everywhere is ok now is it? Have you ever played MTG online? if there is a tourny, you should never try to watch replay of the finals, because it lasts 10 seconds! one guy concedes, and they share the prize now, since its really ok to assume that it might be allowed, because its allowed in many other sports/games, asking if its ok "here" is not bad and should never be regarded as bad, because there is no mention of it in the rules even if they did it and it wasnt prohibited by the rules, there is nothing bad about it... them asking about it is actualy very positive thing, since they didnt have to, it would be on tournament organisiers to take the blame and change the rules afterwards unless you think that doing something that was prefectly legal at the time, but 10 years later is illegal should get you arrested... but if you do, you are retarded It's obviously not allowed for them to just forfeit and give the prize to one of them. How stupid do you have to be to think that? "ok we'll have a tournament but if you dont wanna play just all agree on who gets $6k." Wait, that makes no sense. They knew they were cheating a little bit. If they didnt then i really dont know what to say. how is it cheating to throw a game ?? so if you just dont feel like playing a certain day, be it for wahtever reson, you should get punnished for it ?? its not like they signed a contract with the tournament that they will play their best in all the games
I cant believe that people dont understand this.
Lets say i am sponsored by a company who expects me to do my best and win, and my fans are cheering for me aswell. If i then just agree with someone else that i will lose so he gets the prize, without telling anyone else, then that is cheating.
If you dont feel like playing then that is fine. Because you dont arrange it.
Like lets say in the GSL finals that 1 guy decided to lose and then they would both split the prize pool. That would be fine according to you? Like 1 guy just gg's immediately in 5 games and then they share the prize. np?
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On December 22 2010 22:00 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:56 Sewi wrote:
One thing that hasnt been pointed out enough imo is that it is unfair to the sponsors/organizers.
The rule says that the comp is given awy only if one player wins 11 finals. If not, no computer is given away. So matchfixing takes away the option that there is no computer to be given to any player.In a fair competition, the two finalists should try hard to win 11 final games, which is not easy.
Matchfixing in this case ruins the whole thought behind the tournaments system.
It is NOT the same as if there was a single finals with fixed price money, which both of them agree to share after the finals.
My oppinion about the actual two players:
I dont like that they think about doing something like this. And I dont think it makes them look smart when they discuss this while being on stream. Personally I think both should be banned from this specific tournament, now that it is all public. so because the touranment organisers didnt put a rule that this isnt alowed, they should be 'fair' enough to play for real and not get a computer just to please some people who think that they are the moral police and settle for a lesser prize while they can get a bigger and better prize without braking any rules ?
Do you really think that?
Would be interesting to know if any major tournament like MLG, IEM, GSL has something like "no matchfixing allowed" written in their rules.
Seriously, it is just disrespectful to do something like that. And imo it is kinda obvious that matchfixing is NOT allowed at ANY tournament.
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On December 22 2010 22:02 Shikyo wrote:
In SSBM back when I played competitively, I've split prices with the other finalist like 4 times without actually playing the finals. I think it's really nice and no one really loses anything, it's like having 2 winners.
This thread really brings out the worst out of people
Again to everybody out there:
This is NOT....repeat this is NOT about splitting up the prize-money of a SINGLE event. The tournament host decided to give away a computer in case somebody manages to win 11 times out of 18. The tournament host OWNS the frickin computer it is his choice to either give it away or not. Now he decided to give it to a person who manages to WIN 11 tournaments. It's not like the winner of a single event gets 10 grand the loser nothing and both decide to split it up.
It's amazing how people manage to not understand this very simple thing.
Civilized societies have a word for this: fraud.
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I see no problem with this, they both asked the turnament admins because the system in place is retarded and now because of feedback only one of them will be playing.
Morrow is not cheating by not participating lol ;>
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The title and op is misleading, that is why people that generally don´t read anything are raging
It should be something like 'Morrow and Sjow agreed with forfeiting their matches so they split prizes'
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they dont feel like they were doing anything wrong, imo the only reason they vaguely tried to hide it is cause they knew idiots would go on self righteous rants concerning a non-issue
the jobs of these players is to maximize their profits through their profession
they tried to think of the optimal way of doing this, questioned the officials as to the legality of the theoretical situation, then acted according to the answer
there was no matchfixing, when told it was an illegal move one of them stepped out of the tournament as it would be pointless to spend his work time in a profitless endeavor
the only reason the officials themselves are condemning the players is to give rise to the scandal, gain approval in the community, and gain a ton of free publicity
I doubt they were originally going to punish the players for asking a question
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What really disappoints me though is rakaka.se, posting a large banner screaming: "Thrown games in the swedish SC2-elite" and then "BUSTED!" with big red capital letters.
http://rakaka.se/images/746-busted_sc2_morrow_sjow_BANTHEM4LIFE.jpg
"BANTHEM4LIFE.jpg", seriously? What happened to journalistic neutrality? The whole article reeks with spite. They talk about the hot-headed Morrow, and their plans to rig the tournament and also takes the chance of poking at the tournament admin Maven who approved the upcoming throw match.
They apparently talked to Maven via battle.net (WoW), but they didn't give Sjow or MorroW any chance to give their side of the story. The news article was posted 20:41, I'm pretty sure one, if not both players were on battle.net by then.
They did talk to the head of Dignitas ODEE though. Who said he couldn't comment until he heard from his players. Was that an attempt to give both parties a chance to comment and thereby smooth some of the extreme bias over? What the hell would he know about an internal swedish agreement?
On December 22 2010 19:05 Liquid`TLO wrote:
I wouldn'd take news that origins from rakaka too seriously though. They are basically the sun of e-Sports so always read their posts with caution.
Indeed.
Rakaka should post an official apology to both the slander against sjow and morrow and for the unprofessional journalism presented to their readers.
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Let's say it's day 18 and you are in the finals with your friend. Your friend has won 10 tournaments. If you win, you'd get a €25 gift certificate. If your friend wins, he'd get a computer worth €4000 (and a €25 gift certificate).
Like someone said before me, it's an clear case of the prisoners dilemma. In that scenario, I would seriously be ashamed if i won the last game instead of my friend.
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I don't get it. So basically, if Morrow lost to Sjow, he wouldn't get the PC. That's why Sjow isn't participating? What would Sjow lose if he won the tourney lol ? Or did Morrow 'pay' Sjow with his other prizes so Sjow wouldn't participate?
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EPT
