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On December 22 2010 21:18 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +I think people are being too harsh. He says he has no evil intentions. You can't just lump him with your average matchfixer. He also has a good point: the injustice of matchfixing is originated from the conflicting interests of the audience. Intentions means precisely squat. I don't care what they "intended" to do; I care about what they did. Match fixing is wrong. Whether it's in a game nobody will see, or a game seen by millions across the world. It cheapens and denigrates the game. It turns a legitimate sport into a pile of crap. It is wrong, period. Show nested quote +Wtf are you on about, every online casino/live casino allow people to split prizes if all agree. It's in every rulebook thats its fine. Then that's fine. Because it's within the rules. Unless the rules specifically allow this, it is cheating. If both players want to play with maphacks, that doesn't mean they can.
If you disregard the intentions (which you shouldn't completely) you will notice that the didn't do anything at all because they just talked about it and then asked an admin if it was inside the rules...
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On December 22 2010 21:12 ste0731 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 20:50 Eka wrote:
Dont this kind of deal happend in poker alot? Two player going heads up and just shaking hands on splitting the 1st and 2nd price equally between each other and just folding the hand ending the tournament.
TBH, who cares? The tournament format is VERY open to stuff like this, why be surprised that they want to earn money and a computer. Instead of just going away with a few bucks each they both can get alot more by just "tweaking" their play abit.
Im not surprised, nor upset. I blame the tournament, not the players. No, this thing does not happen in poker regularly. It's strictly prohibited. Wtf are you on about, every online casino/live casino allow people to split prizes if all agree. It's in every rulebook thats its fine.
Dude, read the thread. It's not the same.
It would be the same if they just played and won whatever they are entitled to and decide to split there winnings afterwards. What they are doing is inflating the pricepool by throwing matches and gaining an unfair advantage because of working together. This is called collusion and has nothing to do with splitting the pricepool or deal making and collusion is forbidden on every poker site and in every casino.
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On December 22 2010 21:12 ste0731 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 20:50 Eka wrote:
Dont this kind of deal happend in poker alot? Two player going heads up and just shaking hands on splitting the 1st and 2nd price equally between each other and just folding the hand ending the tournament.
TBH, who cares? The tournament format is VERY open to stuff like this, why be surprised that they want to earn money and a computer. Instead of just going away with a few bucks each they both can get alot more by just "tweaking" their play abit.
Im not surprised, nor upset. I blame the tournament, not the players. No, this thing does not happen in poker regularly. It's strictly prohibited. Wtf are you on about, every online casino/live casino allow people to split prizes if all agree. It's in every rulebook thats its fine.
prize splitting in poker is extremely common. A split is common in many places actually... Its when theres an alterior motive behind throwing matches, IE intentionally losing a match when people betting on the match make money. Except when we are talking about splits no one actually throws the match, it just kinda ends in a draw or they play out for the title but split the prize pool.
when i first read this thread i was like uhh... but now its like uhhh, that format for a tournament seems really stupid, as if they both play to win, neither of them will win...
On December 22 2010 21:20 djengizz wrote:
It would be the same if they just played and won whatever they are entitled to and decide to split there winnings afterwards. What they are doing is inflating the pricepool by throwing matches and gaining an unfair advantage because of working together. This is called collusion and has nothing to do with splitting the pricepool or deal making and collusion is forbidden on every poker site and in every casino.
Not entirely true if they both played and split afterwards no one would win the grand prize, which is why the format is kinda silly.
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On December 22 2010 21:09 Mr Mauve wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 20:50 Eka wrote:
Dont this kind of deal happend in poker alot? Two player going heads up and just shaking hands on splitting the 1st and 2nd price equally between each other and just folding the hand ending the tournament.
TBH, who cares? The tournament format is VERY open to stuff like this, why be surprised that they want to earn money and a computer. Instead of just going away with a few bucks each they both can get alot more by just "tweaking" their play abit.
Im not surprised, nor upset. I blame the tournament, not the players. No, this thing does not happen in poker regularly. It's strictly prohibited. Yes it does, to the extent that there's an automated procedure for it in PokerStars: http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/rules/Show nested quote +Deal Making
Deal making is allowed in PokerStars tournaments, unless otherwise specified in the tournament lobby.
If all remaining players in a tournament agree to split the prize money according to a formula of their choosing, PokerStars will accept this agreement, transfer the funds upon completion of the event, and send transfer receipts to all parties to the agreement.
If all players remaining wish to make a deal, please email support@pokerstars.com with the subject line: ‘URGENT Tournament # (insert tournament number) chop’ and a PokerStars staff member will come to the table to ensure a smoothly arranged deal. PokerStars cannot guarantee that a staff member will arrive in a timely fashion although every effort will be made to avoid delays.
All players must indicate their willingness to take part in a deal negotiation before PokerStars will pause the tournament clock.
Except that situation is not similar to what is happening here. In that scenario, the prize pool is a set amount. All the players who have a claim to some of that prize pool can come to a chopping arrangement. No argument with that.
However, in this case, the total prizes being awarded is not a set amount. The amount of money that a competitor wins is determined by his placement in a series of tournaments. If a player wins more than one tournament, he gets an additional bonus to simply winning first place in that tournament. So, it's actually more like Tilt's Daily Doubles.
Conveniently, Full Tilt has a rule explicitly forbidding deals in those tournaments:
Because Daily Double prizes are awarded based on a player's finishing position in both tournaments, deal-making is expressly prohibited in these events. If players are found to have made a deal, they will forfeit their share of the jackpot, and the prize will be awarded to the next eligible player(s).
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/promotions/daily-double-rules.php
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On December 22 2010 21:11 noD wrote:
If I understand right they just said let´s split prizes since one of us will win, is there any problem with it?
Well there is since the prize for tournament win is increased with number of tournaments won. So one player was going to deliberately lose a final set so the other one would rack up tournament wins and get better price for each next won tournament.
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On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with,
So what...........
They got caught, therefore it's ok?
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Oh man, Sjow's reponse to this whole "scandal" just reminds me of why Defense attorneys prefer their client to just keep their mouth shut. I think Sjow's comments just hurt his image in the community more than it helped him. -________-
Of course there is nothing wrong with prize splitting where both players get a draw and the prize is split evenly. The catch is that you can't do that in this tournament so all of these shenanigans go in the matchfixing category.
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On December 22 2010 21:10 Sorkoas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:49 TaKemE wrote:On December 22 2010 20:43 Sorkoas wrote:
What sickens me the most is how SjoW refuses to believe he's acting wrong by going through with this. After all discussions at IRC, at rakaka and here at TL he still doesn't understand that he's abusing Inferno Online's promotion by making it much easier to secure a prize which is not supposed to be easy to reach. He's also ignoring the fact that if a third skilled player would show up aiming at winning as many tournaments as possible, he wouldn't compete on the same terms as Sjow and MorroW when they agree on not giving each other a fight for it but instead lose to each other, especiall during later stages of the tournament while they give their best versus a supposed third player. Besides them having a much easier way to getting all those 11 tournament wins... While I agree what they did/wanted to do is wrong, its dosent effect the other players (3rd).. Of course it does. Let's say MorroW and SjoW get to play each other in the semi finals then it's a free way to the final for one of them while the players in the other semi final actually have to win to reach the final and compete for the grand prize. This affects all tourneys when the one they decide is going to get to win against the other has a much easier way to win each single tournament. Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:56 L3g3nd_ wrote:On December 22 2010 20:53 sleepingdog wrote:On December 22 2010 20:49 TaKemE wrote:On December 22 2010 20:43 Sorkoas wrote:
What sickens me the most is how SjoW refuses to believe he's acting wrong by going through with this. After all discussions at IRC, at rakaka and here at TL he still doesn't understand that he's abusing Inferno Online's promotion by making it much easier to secure a prize which is not supposed to be easy to reach. He's also ignoring the fact that if a third skilled player would show up aiming at winning as many tournaments as possible, he wouldn't compete on the same terms as Sjow and MorroW when they agree on not giving each other a fight for it but instead lose to each other, especiall during later stages of the tournament while they give their best versus a supposed third player. Besides them having a much easier way to getting all those 11 tournament wins... While I agree what they did/wanted to do is wrong, its dosent effect the other players (3rd).. Sure it does - if I wanted to win this thing I would have to defeat both Morrow and Sjow. They themselves don't have to really "beat" each other. no, because regardless of whether they match fix or not, no one is going to beat them. if they match fix, youre 3rd, if they dont match fix, youre 3rd. You got it wrong. MorroW and SjoW wouldn't have to be favorites. I meant a thrird player at their level showing up not the third best player who will play. But they are still of course not giving the other players the same chance as they have, as was mentioned above.
For the first they aint going to meet in the semi's do to seeding and even if they were and gave the win to one of them that would not make it harder for the 3. guy to win the tournament.
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On December 22 2010 21:12 ste0731 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 20:50 Eka wrote:
Dont this kind of deal happend in poker alot? Two player going heads up and just shaking hands on splitting the 1st and 2nd price equally between each other and just folding the hand ending the tournament.
TBH, who cares? The tournament format is VERY open to stuff like this, why be surprised that they want to earn money and a computer. Instead of just going away with a few bucks each they both can get alot more by just "tweaking" their play abit.
Im not surprised, nor upset. I blame the tournament, not the players. No, this thing does not happen in poker regularly. It's strictly prohibited. Wtf are you on about, every online casino/live casino allow people to split prizes if all agree. It's in every rulebook thats its fine.
First of all, not every online and live casino allow chops. Many, even most, do, yes.. But certainly not all of them. My regular card room actually does not allow chops. And most places do not have a policy stating that it is allowed; they simply just don't care that you do it. Please don't spew incorrect information.
And second, it's completely different. I've posted it multiple times now (just again a minute ago, go check it out), so I'm not going to spell it out again.
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On December 22 2010 21:18 NicolBolas wrote:
Intentions means precisely squat. I don't care what they "intended" to do; I care about what they did.
Uhm...you do realize the entire thread is a discussion about intentions, as they didn't actually do anything.
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On December 22 2010 21:12 alexpnd wrote:
I agree with the want of legitimacy in a tournament. However helping a friend is bizarre? Strange world. It's all about priorities. If you have a tournament in the bag why not. I still see no problem.
You can't have both of those at once. Either its a real competition or a buddy system.
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On December 22 2010 21:07 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:00 ace246 wrote:
This never would have happend if Sjow posted his confession, it would all merely be groundless accusation given the lack of strong evidence. I think people are being too harsh. He says he has no evil intentions. You can't just lump him with your average matchfixer. He also has a good point: the injustice of matchfixing is originated from the conflicting interests of the audience. Matchfixing ruins the sport, period. If there's no guarantee that players are competing honestly then there's no motivation to watch. And so what if this is a tournament where there won't be an audience or whatever. If these two top players are willing to matchfix even once, then how are you supposed to be sure they won't go ahead and matchfix in a bigger tournament. There's just no way of condoning it. Matchfixing should never be done under any circumstance ever.
Dude, their plan only takes affect if they actually make it to the finals for all or at least the majority of the 18 tornaments. How are we supposed to be sure they won't go ahead and matchfix in a bigger tournament? Well, Sjow did say that he thought it wouldn't be much of a big deal since there is no audience. Big tourneys have big numbers of audience.
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On December 22 2010 19:49 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 19:47 Jayson X wrote:
This thread is like a statement to what TL.net has become.
But I guess that is "OK" for some here. But uninformed opinions are fun! Right? ... Right? :/
It's about the stance on match-fixing I criticize here. It doesnt matter how bad the tournament system is. It doesnt matter if they are going to do it or not. Even if it was allowed by the tournament admins. Match fixing, dropping games on purpose, completely throws over the purpose of a tournament and is a pathetic display of competitive sportsmanship by the players involved.
And to not even have the brains to do this in secret and then basically go "we're the best over here, so where's the problem?"...
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On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok?
They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it.
Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise?
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On December 22 2010 20:48 TheGrimace wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:24 Ozu wrote:On December 22 2010 20:04 TheGrimace wrote:On December 22 2010 19:57 IdrA wrote:
poor tournament design to set up the prize structure that way and if they're that much better than everyone else competing that they can control the outcomes itd be stupid of them not to
Why would you support match fixing? Even if it has a practical purpose, say gaming a system to get a computer, why would you want to support players not playing to the best of their ability? Would you have let qxc win the laptop this past weekend if he offered you $600? I mean, if he could game the system like that, it's win/win right? Why would a player make such a suggestion before playing the match though? If he wins he'll get the laptop for free. If he loses, he can then ask if he can buy it. Nothing strange there. I was specifically referring to IdrA and the EG Master's Cup this weekend. If IdrA won the show match, no one got the laptop. If qxc won, he got a laptop. So my question still stands. If qxc offered $600 to win the $1600 (I believe that was the price) laptop, would IdrA have accepted?
My bad, I thought the idea was that the winner, regardless, would get the laptop.
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LOL this is so common on WCG BW tournament (koreans do this every year), nothing new for me
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These two aren't exactly criminal masterminds are they?
I don't think they are particularly devious I just think they are kind of dumb. If they didn't want to get in eachothers way in the tournament one of them shouldn't have entered. Conversely if one wins over the one he could just ship the prize to him rather than manipulate the outcome of the games and look like a shady competitor that people may not want anything to do with in the future.
Mostly I am just shocked at how stupid Morrow is. Why even bring that up on your stream? What is wrong with this kid
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On December 22 2010 14:55 Subversion wrote:
Update:
In a later article, rakaka got in touch with Inferno Online's owner Anton "Budak" Budak, who had the following to say: "No throwaway games, the slightest suspicion and they'll be banned for life". He added: "I decide, and nothing unsportsmanlike is allowed
This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. There is no possible excuse for trying to match fix games, no matter how hard you try to explain yourself. It's wrong.
Very glad they took this stance on the matter.
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On December 22 2010 21:25 TaKemE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:10 Sorkoas wrote:On December 22 2010 20:49 TaKemE wrote:On December 22 2010 20:43 Sorkoas wrote:
What sickens me the most is how SjoW refuses to believe he's acting wrong by going through with this. After all discussions at IRC, at rakaka and here at TL he still doesn't understand that he's abusing Inferno Online's promotion by making it much easier to secure a prize which is not supposed to be easy to reach. He's also ignoring the fact that if a third skilled player would show up aiming at winning as many tournaments as possible, he wouldn't compete on the same terms as Sjow and MorroW when they agree on not giving each other a fight for it but instead lose to each other, especiall during later stages of the tournament while they give their best versus a supposed third player. Besides them having a much easier way to getting all those 11 tournament wins... While I agree what they did/wanted to do is wrong, its dosent effect the other players (3rd).. Of course it does. Let's say MorroW and SjoW get to play each other in the semi finals then it's a free way to the final for one of them while the players in the other semi final actually have to win to reach the final and compete for the grand prize. This affects all tourneys when the one they decide is going to get to win against the other has a much easier way to win each single tournament. On December 22 2010 20:56 L3g3nd_ wrote:On December 22 2010 20:53 sleepingdog wrote:On December 22 2010 20:49 TaKemE wrote:On December 22 2010 20:43 Sorkoas wrote:
What sickens me the most is how SjoW refuses to believe he's acting wrong by going through with this. After all discussions at IRC, at rakaka and here at TL he still doesn't understand that he's abusing Inferno Online's promotion by making it much easier to secure a prize which is not supposed to be easy to reach. He's also ignoring the fact that if a third skilled player would show up aiming at winning as many tournaments as possible, he wouldn't compete on the same terms as Sjow and MorroW when they agree on not giving each other a fight for it but instead lose to each other, especiall during later stages of the tournament while they give their best versus a supposed third player. Besides them having a much easier way to getting all those 11 tournament wins... While I agree what they did/wanted to do is wrong, its dosent effect the other players (3rd).. Sure it does - if I wanted to win this thing I would have to defeat both Morrow and Sjow. They themselves don't have to really "beat" each other. no, because regardless of whether they match fix or not, no one is going to beat them. if they match fix, youre 3rd, if they dont match fix, youre 3rd. You got it wrong. MorroW and SjoW wouldn't have to be favorites. I meant a thrird player at their level showing up not the third best player who will play. But they are still of course not giving the other players the same chance as they have, as was mentioned above. For the first they aint going to meet in the semi's do to seeding and even if they were and gave the win to one of them that would not make it harder for the 3. guy to win the tournament.
Wtf, of course it's harder just by looking at my example stated above. And why does seeding have anything to do with this? Even if they are not playing each other until the final it will be a free win at some point, whcih the other players won't get. And also if it's a fact that they would never get to play each other before the very last round because of some seeding I'd like to see some source for it, because that makes it sound like this is not just planned to be fixed by the players but they also got some admin helping them out.
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tdlr, both seem super scummy.
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EPT
