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On December 22 2010 21:21 KiF1rE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:20 djengizz wrote:
It would be the same if they just played and won whatever they are entitled to and decide to split there winnings afterwards. What they are doing is inflating the pricepool by throwing matches and gaining an unfair advantage because of working together. This is called collusion and has nothing to do with splitting the pricepool or deal making and collusion is forbidden on every poker site and in every casino. Not entirely true if they both played and split afterwards no one would win the grand prize, which is why the format is kinda silly.
There would still be a chance if one of the two is better and can claim 11 victories over the other.
If there's no chance in hell of this happening and these players recognise this they should just decide for themselves if it's worth their effort or not. If not, don't play the tournament.
Manipulating results to achieve this is not the way to go regardless whether it's a stupid format or not. It's like saying it's allright to steal from your boss because he doesn't pay you enough...
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On December 22 2010 18:21 Choirdrunk wrote:
Guys, IdrA long ago noted that MorroW gamed the system in SCBW and, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Sjow have a history of cheating? This recent event isn't hurting their reputation, this IS their reputation.
An integral component to esports is competition. Competition spawns interest which spawns eyeballs which spawns various sponsorships. There aren't a throng of people out there watching SCII just so Morrow can get a new computer, they are watching it because they love the mix of analytical ability, practiced maneuvers, nerves, apm and luck that go into every match.
Morrow and Sjow conspired to do away with everything the public loves about SCII and, after they got caught, they "asked officials." Based on this incident alone, I'd give them a pass. When you couple it with their history, I'd be happy to never have to watch them in another tournament again.
SjoW does not have a history with cheating. Stop making shit up to suit your own arguments.
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On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise?
I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np?
I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it.
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Can't believe all this talk about "they have the tournament in the bag anyway what does it matter?"
So now if there's some superior players in a tournament that are expected to win it's fine if they fix their matches? Bullshit. Upsets do happen. Anyone who's been following BW lately knows that even absolute Gods can fall to nobody's if the circumstances are right (see: Flash in MSL).
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They both should be banned for life in all tournaments for match fixing.
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Iceland800 Posts
On December 22 2010 21:36 djengizz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:21 KiF1rE wrote:On December 22 2010 21:20 djengizz wrote:
It would be the same if they just played and won whatever they are entitled to and decide to split there winnings afterwards. What they are doing is inflating the pricepool by throwing matches and gaining an unfair advantage because of working together. This is called collusion and has nothing to do with splitting the pricepool or deal making and collusion is forbidden on every poker site and in every casino. Not entirely true if they both played and split afterwards no one would win the grand prize, which is why the format is kinda silly. There would still be a chance if one of the two is better and can claim 11 victories over the other. If there's no chance in hell of this happening and these players recognise this they should just decide for themselves if it's worth their effort or not. If not, don't play the tournament. Manipulating results to achieve this is not the way to go regardless whether it's a stupid format or not. It's like saying it's allright to steal from your boss because he doesn't pay you enough...
or they can do what they did and decide only one of them will play....
it's rakakaka.se
no one in here can be sure they didn't just mean to do this thing they eventually decided upon and keep the "match fixing" thing (to split the good prize) if allowed, which they weren't so they didn't.
I'm afraid someone seriously trying to scam their way around would keep it a bit more down low.
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I dont think this is realy bad, its like in poker if the players decide they can split the prize money and stop playing and if they get a bigger prize why not, their first concederations should be for themselfs not fans...
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Ok just read everything, it´s no big deal at all, they would just gg [enter] f10 + n if they met each other, what is the problem, if they arent trying to put a fake show it doesnt matter at all for me ...
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On December 22 2010 20:26 Askesis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:09 ParasitJonte wrote:
It just amazes me that a significant amount of people don't seem to realize that they're still going ahead as planned, just with a slightly different strategy. Somehow, that new strategy doesn't seem as offensive to people.
That's why people crying "terrible!", "cheaters!" and so on can't be taken seriously. Because they're being hypocritical without even realizing it. What do you want us to do? Call them cheaters because Morrow isn't playing, opening the door for Sjow to take them all? I mean, we all know what's going on, but what can we do? People are getting flamed for calling them cheaters for trying to match-fix, yet you want people to call them cheaters for Morrow not playing in the tourny? But wouldn't the same thing also apply to every good player who is not participating in the tournament?
Yeah. That's exactly what I want you to do. To realize that from a moral standpoint what they're doing now isn't any different.
Where to place the blame, then? The organizers. Of course I realize as well that matchfixing is wrong in general. But in this specific scenario it's really, really, really hard for me to sit here and judge Morrow and SjoW for doing something that most people would've done. I feel that they are effectively being forced by the setup to act like this. And that's sad.
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well yea its not completly moral, the whole fairplay and play the best you can, but its not like they are placing bets on it,if he gets a bigger prize for loosing why not do it, who gives a #&% if its not what would happen in a perfect world
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they have no injust influence over any of the matches except the one match where they face each other, if they are good enough friends that they agree to share the prizes then I say good on them
this is not like the match fixing that went on in BW as they aren't under contract based on their performance in proleague or anything like that....
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Hmm, idk if this is true or not, but i even joked around about splitting the prizes for that tournament with morrow myself. Its gonna be like 5 gold league players, some bronze and then MorroW basically and SjoW. AFAIK it is not going to be streamed at all and honestly. One of them is going to win either way so i dont get why this is such a big deal. Its just a small little thing at a net cafe.
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On December 22 2010 15:02 ShootingStars wrote:
please tell me how match fixing is cheating, like map hacking thanks
TWO players in an agreement. unlike maphacking
the key word is AGREEMENT. if both players agree, then its fine.
its just like map choosing. both players agree to play on LOST TEMPLE,
Can we agree that you're an idiot?
Not an insult, just an agreement.
Somehow I smell troll, why the hell would you chat about this while streaming?
OK they actually were serious about it and somehow made it sound right in their heads... I don't get it...
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On December 22 2010 21:38 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 21:30 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:23 Deadlyfish wrote:On December 22 2010 21:16 TheBanana wrote:On December 22 2010 21:14 Deadlyfish wrote:
This is cheating, how are people fine with this? I dont care if the prize was a million $, they still cheated by matchfixing. I would say they are on the same level as maphackers, cheating is cheating. Lost all respect for both of them. Well, for one thing it never happened. It's a hypothetical match fix they didnt go trough with, So what........... They got caught, therefore it's ok? They asked if they could do it, got a "no" and then didn't do it. Or do you have some new evidence other than speculation stating otherwise? I dont care if they asked first, i just dont like that they even thought about doing it. If i asked someone if i could maphack and they said no, then it was np? I just dont like that they even thought about doing it, i dont really care if they asked if they could do it.
asking if something very common in plenty of sports and games is ok is not exactly the same as asking if something 100% banned everywhere is ok now is it?
Have you ever played MTG online? if there is a tourny, you should never try to watch replay of the finals, because it lasts 10 seconds! one guy concedes, and they share the prize
now, since its really ok to assume that it might be allowed, because its allowed in many other sports/games, asking if its ok "here" is not bad and should never be regarded as bad, because there is no mention of it in the rules
even if they did it and it wasnt prohibited by the rules, there is nothing bad about it... them asking about it is actualy very positive thing, since they didnt have to, it would be on tournament organisiers to take the blame and change the rules afterwards
unless you think that doing something that was prefectly legal at the time, but 10 years later is illegal should get you arrested... but if you do, you are retarded
edit: so mad props to them for being moral and more fair than they needed to be at expanse of their own well being
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On December 22 2010 20:23 Askesis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 20:03 dakalro wrote:On December 22 2010 19:56 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 19:38 dakalro wrote:
The only cheating here was from the tournament organizers. Bloody marketing ploy, get 2 great players, advertise a huge prize and make rules/games so nobody can with it. Shame on the cafe for doing this shit. I would have thought of the same thing in a heartbeat had I been friends with the only other person that could win the tournaments.
If MorroW and Sjow are close enough in skill but way ahead of everyone else in the tournament then the chances are that together they'd win the majority of rounds. Being even would mean there would be an extremely low chance of anyone actually going home with the only reason they'd even agree to be there.
The fact that in the first round of the tournament only one of them played is proof enough the "leaks" occured before any games were even played and so did the talk with the organizers (and they would have been dumb to let the players fix a winner for something they didn't want to give away).
For something not casted and with no spectators that is rigged against the players from the start I would have said fuck em and go for the prize, maybe next time they would think twice before trying to get money out of 2 players' names and pay nothing for it.
This is not players trying to cheat the community, this is sponsors trying to cheat the players for free publicity without actually giving anything in return. So organizers should just lower the prize pool and just take away any possible prizes? Will that make you happy? They offer a very good prize, and all you can do is complain? They clearly state that the computer will be given away if someone can win 11 of 18 tournaments. I think everybody knows that winning 11 of 18 is a very hard task. You are acting like they pulled some kind of bait-and-switch when the prize and winning conditions are clearly stated. The only victims here are people who are the victims of their own stupidity. If someone thought winning 11 of 18 tournaments would be easy, that is their own dumb fault. There is no prize pool, it was never intended to give the 4k PC away, it's there just for show, to attract the 2 pros and a ton of idiot customers. That's the entire point of it. Put on the huge fireworks show, present some huge diamond to attract the crowd, get the money and run, no actual cost for it. It may not be bait and switch exactly but it's damn close to it, chances of someone winning 11/18 with 2 huge favorites and chance that they would lose 1-2 finals are so small it's worth the risk. How do you think casinos make money? Think about it this way. The chance that one of them would get the PC at even skill is once every 2k+ tournaments like this ....................................................... First of all, you are acting like the 6k computer is the only prize, and that if you don't win 11 of the 18 tournaments, you don't get anything. This isn't true, but even if it was, SO WHAT? That's the way they structured the tournament, that's the way they advertised it, and everybody knows what to expect. If you want to play in the tournament, do it. If you don't feel the format is worth it, then don't play in them. Where does it come into play that players have the right to cheat the tournament because they don't like the structure? This is a tournament that they are voluntarily playing. People have this sense of entitlement when they really aren't owed a damn thing. And casinos make money because of math. They have a slight edge in all of their games, so even though many times people will walk out of the casino winners on the night, the casino will always win in the long run. However, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with this thread, to be honest.
This is about math also, exactly like in a casino. They'd have to make tournaments like this for hundreds of years for a chance to actually give out the grand prize ONCE to be high enough. WTH, do you actually think one internet cafe/chain would actually put up $6k in prizes when most tournaments are for <$500 ...
It's 2k total for 18 tournament rounds + 4k for the PC from what I understood ... you do the math and check the logic.
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On December 22 2010 21:51 FliedLice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:02 ShootingStars wrote:
please tell me how match fixing is cheating, like map hacking thanks
TWO players in an agreement. unlike maphacking
the key word is AGREEMENT. if both players agree, then its fine.
its just like map choosing. both players agree to play on LOST TEMPLE, Can we agree that you're an idiot? Not an insult, just an agreement. Somehow I smell troll, why the hell would you chat about this while streaming?
cause they didnt think people would make such a big deal out of it ?
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On December 22 2010 21:43 ParasitJonte wrote:
Yeah. That's exactly what I want you to do. To realize that from a moral standpoint what they're doing now isn't any different.
It is different. Actually, it's so different that if you don't see it yourself it's impossible to explain the difference. Mostly because the implication is that you don't want to see it.
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I don't get your problem. The format is stupid, because if both get 9 wins, nobody gets a computer. So it is more than completly normal to resort to this kind of things. And they're HONEST about it. What is the deal ?
They'll never do that to a normal «The winner takes it all» tournament.
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I can't believe anyone is claiming this is ok. I mean, if they got to the final and one of them then just tells the organizers "I'm forfeiting this game as previously agreed upon with my opponent before the tournament," then sure. That's fine. I don't think anyone really thinks that's what they were going to do. They were just going to make sure the same person always won. The reason they were dong that rather than the first option is that they knew on some level that this would be unacceptable to the organizers/spectators. That makes it cheating.
I've been involved in other competitive activities before, and in my experience corruption generally happens because people are stupid, not because they're ill-intentioned. They think it's "good strategy" or "just helping a friend" or whatever. The only way you can stop this self-justification is to make a very strong norm in the community that it's totally unacceptable. Step 1 to doing that is banning players who have been caught (attempting) to do this before from your tournament(s). Step 2 is never to make an idiotic payout system like this where cooperation can increase the total payout two players get. There are many formats (including single/double elimination) where you can't benefit from this stuff, and tournaments should stick to those formats.
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Way too many dumb people on TL.
We all want E-Sport to grow, but when an organization invest money into a tournament they cannot even count on fair sportsmanship.
If I would as a company invest money into a 17 day tournament. And the(top-)players would screw me over like this. I would cancel my tournament and NEVER put a penny into e-sports again.
And to all the people who think that the tournament set-up is to blame. You are morons.
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EPT
