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On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:
This is a LONG post. Maybe a bit of a rant, but making valid points..
So, i'm not going to go into PvZ because i feel its pretty balanced atm (esp after the nerf to ultra, and buff to phoenixes, the P just shouldnt let us get mid game unless theyre going to force a macro race and go super late)
Anyway, ZvT is where a big issue lies. As said by ret, i believe it what, T is OP vs Z early, and Z is OP vs T late late game (thus why u dont see games last to t3)
However, we MUST 14 hatch to have a chance vs the 2rax+scv rush, we need the creep/larva, and having access to drones fast... Plus, if we 1 base, we're severely behind going into mid game (we dont have mules..and only so much larva..), Plus, they can just contain us and block the hatch w/bunkers.
The ability to rush us so effectively early and fall back on defensive structures (walls, bunkers) and mules to protect themselves INCASE the rush gets blocked is insane. The z cant really counter due to this, and must drone up hoping to keep up with T econ, but the T is prob making another, better army to push with shortly.
Furthermore, when they go marine+hellion (or just hellion) into banshees, its EXTREMELY hard to beat, or even into tanks.. We are forced to drop spines (which we should anyway, but they are by far the worst tower on ground, ill go into this later) and get roaches. This makes stoping banshees even harder, due to the resources/larva spent stopping something that only costs T minerals (and not much at that)
Late game, it gets balanced a bit, if we're allowed to freely macro, which never happens. Even so, if the T drops 4-5 OCs they can outproduce us (double as depots, pays themselves off VERY fast, and allows scans) However, their use of drops and ledges etc makes it very hard to stop harrassing, where as they can just drop missile turrets and severely cut our ability
Also, when they DO rush, they get to place bunkers they can just refund @ any time..
I find myself pidgeon holed into being very reactionary, to a point that it hurts my econ/macro/tech options quite a bit. Yes, we're a reactionary race, but we just about HAVE to go sling/bling, and most likely muta/roach as well. But the pressure coupled with the lack of larva and having to rebuy units a lot, equals less resources to get other things in the tech tree.
Some things i think would help balance it out...
1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES.
2)Bunker refunding should be a % of the remaining HP... Really, salvaging a burning bunker for full refund is just retarded. So we have to choose between killing the rines (while they kill your units) or let them get minerals back..
3) Static defenses. Spines SHOULD be 40 seconds to make (not 50) and maybe a few sec cut off root time (it takes an hour atm, just tested it) plus costs us one of our much needed drones early. Cannons take 40 sec, have higher dps, same hp (but regen faster), and can shoot air AND ground, and DOESNT cost a probe. Bunkers can be refunded, and are quite nice. I mean really?
3b) Spores... again, take an hour (extensively tested) to re-root, and needs to be placed nearly perfectly to stop banshees/voids. Even so, to place the number other races can/do, it costs us drones.
4) Ultras. Need. A. Buff.
They are terrible. u can get 6 banelings for the cost of ONE ultra, at a much faster rate. These also dont die every time before reaching their target unless in massive numbers, are useful when burrowed (if at least for mind games), and are scary. They also have much much better pathing/sizing. Ultras are like cuddly pedo bears. They just want to get up to you and hug you, but they cant, they get shot to death before they can do so. Even WHEN they do, the dmg is really small, and a well placed thor can stop its entire splash radius.
--I know they changed the splash starting point from the middle of ultra to like... where its head is.. and if u look @ TL testing, it actually is a NERF AGAIN. It loses a few targets (off to its side) if its surrounded or even just semi-surrounded..
5) OCs. Put a cooldown on them PLEASE. Or lower energy rate. Say theyre in combat, they can just let the energy build up (or wait to use 2-4 of them 2-4 times each when they move a OC to a new base, thus giving them insane mineral rate), while the Z has to continually look back (or use minimap) to keep spawning larva or we LOSE PRODUCTION. T loses nothing by waiting on casting mules, actually, they gain a bit, due to having scans wherever/whenever they want..
--Rant over.
=p
Valid points? I was falling asleep waiting for GSL but your post wakes me up so thanks. Ok you start off by putting on a disguise of being objective by saying how T is OP early and Z is OP late then you proceed to nerf Terran like 5 times? Where are the nerfs to Z late game then? I laughed so hard that I am awake now. To respond to your post: your ideas are all shit. Ooh and let me do this too --Rant over. Did I do it right?
Edit: spellings.
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Haha yeah those five suggestions about what's wrong with terran was pretty awful and uneducated about how the game works=)
You get 6 banelings for one ultralisk - sounds legit to me, because it uses a a third of the larvae.
Your logic about terran gaining advantage from not using the orbital command is easily translated to zerg. Whenever you didn't larvae inject you can get a transfusion or creep tumor off and those together are equally useful to scans.
I know you consider it unfair that terran got mules but you need to realize that zerg can devote all their money into making mineral gatherers while terran cannot. Now, if you were true to your post about terran only being op early on then your suggestion about the spine might be what's up.
Can't really nerf terran much in the early game imo but maybe a buff to defense for zerg.
About lategame nerf for zerg I want to say banelings but that might ruin the early game so... Nothing I guess
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On December 10 2010 18:32 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Haha yeah those five suggestions about what's wrong with terran was pretty awful and uneducated about how the game works=)
You get 6 banelings for one ultralisk - sounds legit to me, because it uses a a third of the larvae.
Your logic about terran gaining advantage from not using the orbital command is easily translated to zerg. Whenever you didn't larvae inject you can get a transfusion or creep tumor off and those together are equally useful to scans.
I know you consider it unfair that terran got mules but you need to realize that zerg can devote all their money into making mineral gatherers while terran cannot. Now, if you were true to your post about terran only being op early on then your suggestion about the spine might be what's up.
Can't really nerf terran much in the early game imo but maybe a buff to defense for zerg.
About lategame nerf for zerg I want to say banelings but that might ruin the early game so... Nothing I guess
From the Zerg perspectve there are still plenty of issues...
Zerg may be able to spend all their money on drones, but MULEs are free. Both in cost AND supply as well as them being able to oversaturate mineral fields.
Trying to compare scans with transfuse/creep tumor is laughable as well. What amounts to instant, unstoppable scouting/cloak detection anywhere on the map is supposed to be equivalent to a slow spreading giant purple sign saying "DON'T GO HERE OR ZERG UNITS CAN OUTRUN YOU!!" and the ability to heal units for typically 2x the required HP on occasion? Oh yeah the queen costs supply to boot Yeah... OK
OC > queen no matter how you slice it. I'm not necessarily saying that is imba, different races need different things, but Terrans easily have the best macro addition in SC2.
Then at the end you mention nerfing banelings. I think every Z player would be all for a baneling nerf as long as there is an equivalent marine nerf.
Spending all your time and money on a suicide unit just so you can beat a T1 unit sucks. Make Roaches > Marines. Make Hydralisks as good as 2 marines like they SHOULD be (both could be done by nerfing marine DPS by oh, say 30%) and you can nerf the crap out of the baneling. But I bet you think that would be equally unfair.
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Make Hydralisks as good as 2 marines like they SHOULD be
Doesn't a hydra already kill 2 marines and actually still has almost half health left, with same speed off creep? Anything you upgrade extra for marines is a different tier already.
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On December 10 2010 23:50 dakalro wrote:
Make Hydralisks as good as 2 marines like they SHOULD be
Doesn't a hydra already kill 2 marines and actually still has almost half health left, with same speed off creep? Anything you upgrade extra for marines is a different tier already.
You're right, because +10 hp, 30% attack speed bonus and +50% move speed on 100/100 research has nothing to do with unit balance.
And its quite easy to make non-upgraded hydras lose to non-upgraded marines with a tiny bit of micro or just going with larger numbers (4h vs 8m will lose most times for instance).
Screw the fact that hydras are a whole tier and 50 gas above the cost of marines, if they convincingly beat marines in straight up fights w/o stim that would be imba.
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I thought this thread was about PTR 1.20 and not Zerg QQ...typical
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On December 11 2010 00:12 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 23:50 dakalro wrote:
Make Hydralisks as good as 2 marines like they SHOULD be
Doesn't a hydra already kill 2 marines and actually still has almost half health left, with same speed off creep? Anything you upgrade extra for marines is a different tier already. You're right, because +10 hp, 30% attack speed bonus and +50% move speed on 100/100 research has nothing to do with unit balance. And its quite easy to make non-upgraded hydras lose to non-upgraded marines with a tiny bit of micro or just going with larger numbers (4h vs 8m will lose most times for instance). Screw the fact that hydras are a whole tier and 50 gas above the cost of marines, if they convincingly beat marines in straight up fights w/o stim that would be imba.
you can make that same argument for stalkers, which are even worse than hydras.
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you can make that same argument for stalkers, which are even worse than hydras.
Well Stalkers are faster than marines and as soon as they get blink more versatile generally..
Anyway comparing 2 Units directly is most of the time a waste of time and I generally agree with that
I thought this thread was about PTR 1.20
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On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +This is a LONG post. Maybe a bit of a rant, but making valid points..
So, i'm not going to go into PvZ because i feel its pretty balanced atm (esp after the nerf to ultra, and buff to phoenixes, the P just shouldnt let us get mid game unless theyre going to force a macro race and go super late)
Anyway, ZvT is where a big issue lies. As said by ret, i believe it what, T is OP vs Z early, and Z is OP vs T late late game (thus why u dont see games last to t3)
However, we MUST 14 hatch to have a chance vs the 2rax+scv rush, we need the creep/larva, and having access to drones fast... Plus, if we 1 base, we're severely behind going into mid game (we dont have mules..and only so much larva..), Plus, they can just contain us and block the hatch w/bunkers.
The ability to rush us so effectively early and fall back on defensive structures (walls, bunkers) and mules to protect themselves INCASE the rush gets blocked is insane. The z cant really counter due to this, and must drone up hoping to keep up with T econ, but the T is prob making another, better army to push with shortly.
Furthermore, when they go marine+hellion (or just hellion) into banshees, its EXTREMELY hard to beat, or even into tanks.. We are forced to drop spines (which we should anyway, but they are by far the worst tower on ground, ill go into this later) and get roaches. This makes stoping banshees even harder, due to the resources/larva spent stopping something that only costs T minerals (and not much at that)
Late game, it gets balanced a bit, if we're allowed to freely macro, which never happens. Even so, if the T drops 4-5 OCs they can outproduce us (double as depots, pays themselves off VERY fast, and allows scans) However, their use of drops and ledges etc makes it very hard to stop harrassing, where as they can just drop missile turrets and severely cut our ability
Also, when they DO rush, they get to place bunkers they can just refund @ any time..
I find myself pidgeon holed into being very reactionary, to a point that it hurts my econ/macro/tech options quite a bit. Yes, we're a reactionary race, but we just about HAVE to go sling/bling, and most likely muta/roach as well. But the pressure coupled with the lack of larva and having to rebuy units a lot, equals less resources to get other things in the tech tree.
Some things i think would help balance it out...
1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES.
2)Bunker refunding should be a % of the remaining HP... Really, salvaging a burning bunker for full refund is just retarded. So we have to choose between killing the rines (while they kill your units) or let them get minerals back.. 3) Static defenses. Spines SHOULD be 40 seconds to make (not 50) and maybe a few sec cut off root time (it takes an hour atm, just tested it) plus costs us one of our much needed drones early. Cannons take 40 sec, have higher dps, same hp (but regen faster), and can shoot air AND ground, and DOESNT cost a probe. Bunkers can be refunded, and are quite nice. I mean really? 3b) Spores... again, take an hour (extensively tested) to re-root, and needs to be placed nearly perfectly to stop banshees/voids. Even so, to place the number other races can/do, it costs us drones. + Show Spoiler +
4) Ultras. Need. A. Buff.
They are terrible. u can get 6 banelings for the cost of ONE ultra, at a much faster rate. These also dont die every time before reaching their target unless in massive numbers, are useful when burrowed (if at least for mind games), and are scary. They also have much much better pathing/sizing. Ultras are like cuddly pedo bears. They just want to get up to you and hug you, but they cant, they get shot to death before they can do so. Even WHEN they do, the dmg is really small, and a well placed thor can stop its entire splash radius.
--I know they changed the splash starting point from the middle of ultra to like... where its head is.. and if u look @ TL testing, it actually is a NERF AGAIN. It loses a few targets (off to its side) if its surrounded or even just semi-surrounded..
5) OCs. Put a cooldown on them PLEASE. Or lower energy rate. Say theyre in combat, they can just let the energy build up (or wait to use 2-4 of them 2-4 times each when they move a OC to a new base, thus giving them insane mineral rate), while the Z has to continually look back (or use minimap) to keep spawning larva or we LOSE PRODUCTION. T loses nothing by waiting on casting mules, actually, they gain a bit, due to having scans wherever/whenever they want..
--Rant over. =p
The problem with decreasing spine crawler time to a reasonable amount of time (which I would otherwise endorse to be like 35 or 40s) is that it would make spine crawler rushes in zvz potentially too strong. The reason spines take so long to root is because of the mid-game pushes with spines that used to occur in zvz. Yes, these are "balanced", but they break the match-up.
One solution (there are probably problems with this), and this is a potentially huge change is to increase spawning pool cost, but reduce build time. The right equilibrium for this to change relatively little would be for a 13/14 pool to finish at about the same time.
I've tried theorycrafting the math out on this, but it's actually hard to figure out because I don't want to break the 6 pool to be too good either (50 extra minerals is still a lot to spend at 14 pool, but it doesn't take that long to get that much extra with 6 drones so even a 10 seconds reduction might improve a 6 pool ever so slightly.
As for spores, they should just revert it, players weren't running spores into their opponents mineral lines (although maybe this would work during a battle to pick off overlords and detect?).
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I'd like them to try my idea out to balance out TvZ / TvP:
Marauders: 10 attack, +5 to armored ( previously 10 )
Tanks: Same as current except each upgrade level is +3 more ( so +8 each upgrade ), giving Terrans a much better chance late game.
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On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:
1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES.
I always found it hilarious that the one unit that quite obviously requires GAS for everything it does, only costs minerals.
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On December 11 2010 04:11 JBrown08 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:
1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES.
I always found it hilarious that the one unit that quite obviously requires GAS for everything it does, only costs minerals.
I don't quite agree with that. Hellions are essentially the SC2 equivalent of Vultures, except without spider mines. Which as a protoss I am very happy about, but I still liked what spider mines did for the game. Vultures only costed 75 mins in BW, and they were fine. I think giving Terran the versatility of going Mech is dependent on Hellions not costing gas.
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On December 11 2010 04:20 MadNote wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 04:11 JBrown08 wrote:On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:
1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES.
I always found it hilarious that the one unit that quite obviously requires GAS for everything it does, only costs minerals. I don't quite agree with that. Hellions are essentially the SC2 equivalent of Vultures, except without spider mines. Which as a protoss I am very happy about, but I still liked what spider mines did for the game. Vultures only costed 75 mins in BW, and they were fine. I think giving Terran the versatility of going Mech is dependent on Hellions not costing gas.
I wasn't talking about balance or even arguing that hellions *should* cost gas. I just found it funny that a flame throwing car doesn't require gas to be usable in a logical sense. (If you had no gas on a alien planet, how the hell are you going to build and operate such a vehicle)
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i like how zerg keeps complaining about the hydras in this forum even though it has nothing to do with balancing them. and it seems they all complain that they suck against terran so in my uneducated unpro oppinion DONT BUILD THEM
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Hellions are obviously best with the blue flame upgrade, but if you really think in game terms (how long it takes to get to factory, get a tech lab, and research it), you can easily be prepared for the blue flame hellions when they arrive.
If the terran is committing to a mech build, and making very few marines (or none) with the hellions in the early game, he's going to need to utilize those hellions early on, he isn't going to hide them until they get the infernal pre-igniter. Thus you (the zerg) see the hellions early one and have plenty of time to get a counter ready.
Time, time is a resource in this game, just like how day9 says vision is a resource, time management should be an equally valuable asset to your strategies.
I do however believe terran's early game is way way way way OP, I'm juz sayn.
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Upgraded marines are vastly overpowered. They gain way too much from all the upgrades, it's insane. 3-3 marines with stim, health upgrade and medivacs to heal em are the best unit in the game and counter everything cost effectively.
I think something needs to be fixed with them, let it be a mule, marine or medivac-heal nerf, but all-ins are way too good and require no skill to pull off.
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On December 12 2010 04:08 decaf wrote:
Upgraded marines are vastly overpowered. They gain way too much from all the upgrades, it's insane. 3-3 marines with stim, health upgrade and medivacs to heal em are the best unit in the game and counter everything cost effectively.
I think something needs to be fixed with them, let it be a mule, marine or medivac-heal nerf, but all-ins are way too good and require no skill to pull off.
whats your problem, marines are owned by every aoe unit, they are not overpowered and allins do require skill to pull off, so stop the QQ
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This is the problem:
Spawn larvae and CB are ways to spend money faster. MULEs earn money faster. They are only equivalent, economically, if Z and P get to spend that money on workers.
Hence, early game, Terran gets to have a perfect economy AND make units (since MULE money can only thus be spent). P gets to have a perfect economy and some units OR lots of units/upgrades. Z gets to keep up in economy OR make units. It evens out later (zerg comes out ahead, in fact) but for the first few minutes T has carte blanche to put Z behind simply by threatening aggression, at no cost.
Edit: by 'problem' I mean 'reason why T feels like the early game is his best chance to win'. As builds like the 4oc push show, it's perfectly possible for T to have overwhelming mid/late game production - provided you play like a Zerg and rely on paper-thin defence early game.
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Orbital Command should have a factory requirement and factory should cost less gas. Just saying.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 12 2010 05:46 Scoop wrote:
Orbital Command should have a factory requirement and factory should cost less gas. Just saying.
Queen should have lair requirement. Just saying.
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EPT
