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Don't see why they don't implement this shit already. It's not like they bothered to test any of the other patches.
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On December 10 2010 00:42 fdsdfg wrote:
I didn't play much with chat channels, but one thing my friends always did in sc1 and d2 was like.. we just had a 'home' channel that we all went to every time we signed on - if we weren't in a game, then we'd be in the channel to chat.
Is that not possible in sc2? I heard that in a private channel people can't randomly join, you have to invite them... even if they're on your friends list?
would like to see a complete comparison between sc1 chat and this new stuff. whats possible and what isnt etc.
just hope we get channel moderation soon. will be impossible to have "community meet up here!" channels without it when some retards can take it over.
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On December 10 2010 00:42 fdsdfg wrote:
I didn't play much with chat channels, but one thing my friends always did in sc1 and d2 was like.. we just had a 'home' channel that we all went to every time we signed on - if we weren't in a game, then we'd be in the channel to chat.
Is that not possible in sc2? I heard that in a private channel people can't randomly join, you have to invite them... even if they're on your friends list?
Pretty sure you can join any created channel. Thing is, you need to know the name of any channel that isn't put up in the channel list by default. Once you do, it will show up at least during that session. I can't recall if they stayed or not when you quit the game and relogin.
I never had to get an invite to join channels when I was playing with the PTR. I was in the middle of a caster doing streaming and I joined a couple channels other people had made by just entering the name.
The invite button is probably just for convenience probably.
The thing I dislike about the new chat is the spam prevention and what seems to be a lack of moderation capabilities, although clan channels were talked about and maybe those will be expanded to facilitate that. So far it's a step in the right direction, finally.
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On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade.
i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches.
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On December 10 2010 00:47 Achilles wrote:
Don't see why they don't implement this shit already. It's not like they bothered to test any of the other patches.
Cause they dont want the whole thing to crash?
balance updates and this are completely different.
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On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches.
3 range Roaches had some definite issues though. Even 4 range Roaches, though now are useful, I would say still aren't quite as good as Zerglings.
Nerfing Roaches back to what they were before doesn't make hydras any more useful either, it just means we're back to ling/bling 24/7 vs everything. I don't see how this is a realistic suggestion in any way.
Hydras suck because hydras suck, no other reason.
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On December 10 2010 01:59 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches. 3 range Roaches had some definite issues though. Even 4 range Roaches, though now are useful, I would say still aren't quite as good as Zerglings. Nerfing Roaches back to what they were before doesn't make hydras any more useful either, it just means we're back to ling/bling 24/7 vs everything. I don't see how this is a realistic suggestion in any way. Hydras suck because hydras suck, no other reason.
yeah i agree that hydras need to be buffed as well, but i was just saying that roaches were a little to op so even if hydras were buffed ppl still might make roaches instead. therefore a slight roach nerf (maybe 3.5 range) and a slight hydra buff (increase speed or something) would help to greatly diversify z's general army compostion.
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On December 10 2010 02:03 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:59 Jermstuddog wrote:On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches. 3 range Roaches had some definite issues though. Even 4 range Roaches, though now are useful, I would say still aren't quite as good as Zerglings. Nerfing Roaches back to what they were before doesn't make hydras any more useful either, it just means we're back to ling/bling 24/7 vs everything. I don't see how this is a realistic suggestion in any way. Hydras suck because hydras suck, no other reason. yeah i agree that hydras need to be buffed as well, but i was just saying that roaches were a little to op so even if hydras were buffed ppl still might make roaches instead. therefore a slight roach nerf (maybe 3.5 range) and a slight hydra buff (increase speed or something) would help to greatly diversify z's general army compostion.
ZvT: muta ling / bling is the current matchup "standard" due to marine / tank /medivac play being predominent. Roaches as a reaction to thors/hellion or reapers, which it was the case before the patch anyway.
PvZ : roaches are used until collossi and mixed with hydras anyway most of the time. Roach only play is almost dead as protosses start going for fast air a lot right now. Nerfing roaches won't change the matchup a lot except make zerg early game a bit worse against some protoss openings.
ZvZ : the current match up sees a lot of roaches true, but I don't think it's the matchup that matters the most.
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On December 10 2010 02:11 Bellygareth wrote:
ZvT: muta ling / bling is the current matchup "standard" due to marine / tank /medivac play being predominent. Roaches as a reaction to thors/hellion or reapers, which it was the case before the patch anyway.
PvZ : roaches are used until collossi and mixed with hydras anyway most of the time. Roach only play is almost dead as protosses start going for fast air a lot right now. Nerfing roaches won't change the matchup a lot except make zerg early game a bit worse against some protoss openings.
ZvZ : the current match up sees a lot of roaches true, but I don't think it's the matchup that matters the most.
I think you're pretty mistaken:
ZvT: Thor hellion was too strong before the patch, on paper, roaches would be the counter to this, but with range 3 they would actually die even with a pretty large food advantage. Now it can still be tough if you don't scout it, but it's okay if you do scout it. Maybe the buff made Thor/hellion 2-base pushes riskier, but they're still viable if you try to hide it and they're just winning if your roach counts aren't high enough. I'm not sure if the scv change in the PTR would address the issue pre-patch a little, but probably not enough since it was strong even without scvs.
PvZ: The roach actually changed this matchup a lot and a lot of protoss players are struggling with a style that's too stalker heavy because the roach is pretty cost effective against the stalker, but with really good sentry play (and I think this is where a lot of protoss players struggle as it can feel so random and hard), roaches can be dealt with, also quicker robos for immortals deal with this pretty effectively and also give a good transition into getting collosi later.
ZvZ: You're probably not a zerg player, but it's actually a lot more subtle than this. When you see long games it's a lot of roaches, but right now there are a lot of transitions possible in the matchup, it's just that because of fungal growth which only acquires its devastating affects lategame, many units don't have lategame potential because fungal kind of counters them such as lings, banelings which both get 1 shot by fungal growth, but I think the dynamics past early game are actually pretty good and it's becoming a very interesting matchup in games that get past the early game, especially with FE becoming more viable.
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On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches.
when blizzard increased roach range to 4, part of the reason was to increase the roach's effectiveness in mid/late game.. they said it countless times in various Q&A's and patch notes. You make it sound like they increased range to 4 to help with early game harass and the late game buff was some unintended side-effect.. that's not the case... the late game buff was intentional and a good change.. I can't belive people are still bitching about 4 roach range, especially with the new meta shift to air play as toss.. roach's aren't nearly as effective as they were right after the last patch.. plus if you don't want to go air then immortals just toally destroy roaches don't understand why more toss don't go immortals vs mass roach..
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On December 10 2010 00:47 Achilles wrote:
Don't see why they don't implement this shit already. It's not like they bothered to test any of the other patches.
No chance until end of gsl season 3/Code A matches are finished. I have a feeling as soon as they're done, it'll be released 
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It's something people have wanted for a long time, but 19 larvae per hatch is sort of crazy IMO. Some nerf to larvae inject is really needed to balance out Zerg's lategame push-forward. It's just way too much to handle.
But I'm happy with Blizzard taking it slow with patching things. I don't think they gave the fungal nerf and hold-down hotkey change enough time to really be tested, but whatever.
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On December 10 2010 02:45 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches. when blizzard increased roach range to 4, part of the reason was to increase the roach's effectiveness in mid/late game.. they said it countless times in various Q&A's and patch notes. You make it sound like they increased range to 4 to help with early game harass and the late game buff was some unintended side-effect.. that's not the case... the late game buff was intentional and a good change.. I can't belive people are still bitching about 4 roach range, especially with the new meta shift to air play as toss.. roach's aren't nearly as effective as they were right after the last patch.. plus if you don't want to go air then immortals just toally destroy roaches don't understand why more toss don't go immortals vs mass roach..
cuz a signficiant amount of immortals gets rofled by mutas or lings. players going mass roaches are baiting a double robo play.
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On December 10 2010 02:57 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 02:45 stk01001 wrote:On December 10 2010 01:40 da_head wrote:On December 09 2010 21:47 Markwerf wrote:On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2. I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does. The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo: - air counter - an early tier 2 push. THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though. I'd change this if were to patch them: Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed. This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly. The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now. I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade. i think its more of an issue that roaches need to be nerfed. giving them 4 roach was seriously a retarded move because their greatest issue late game was clumping up and not getting an effective arc (which is what hydras excelled at). however, blizzard giving the roaches range 4 with the intention to help em fight reapers and cannon blocks early game, increased their effectives late game trendmously which has brought us back into the beta phase where all zerg does is spam roaches. when blizzard increased roach range to 4, part of the reason was to increase the roach's effectiveness in mid/late game.. they said it countless times in various Q&A's and patch notes. You make it sound like they increased range to 4 to help with early game harass and the late game buff was some unintended side-effect.. that's not the case... the late game buff was intentional and a good change.. I can't belive people are still bitching about 4 roach range, especially with the new meta shift to air play as toss.. roach's aren't nearly as effective as they were right after the last patch.. plus if you don't want to go air then immortals just toally destroy roaches don't understand why more toss don't go immortals vs mass roach.. cuz a signficiant amount of immortals gets rofled by mutas or lings. players going mass roaches are baiting a double robo play.
You actually can't go mass roach and mass muta, those two strategies are mutually exclusive, if your point is that you don't know how to scout, then you've proved it.
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On December 10 2010 02:37 MoreFasho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 02:11 Bellygareth wrote:
ZvT: muta ling / bling is the current matchup "standard" due to marine / tank /medivac play being predominent. Roaches as a reaction to thors/hellion or reapers, which it was the case before the patch anyway.
PvZ : roaches are used until collossi and mixed with hydras anyway most of the time. Roach only play is almost dead as protosses start going for fast air a lot right now. Nerfing roaches won't change the matchup a lot except make zerg early game a bit worse against some protoss openings.
ZvZ : the current match up sees a lot of roaches true, but I don't think it's the matchup that matters the most.
I think you're pretty mistaken: ZvT: Thor hellion was too strong before the patch, on paper, roaches would be the counter to this, but with range 3 they would actually die even with a pretty large food advantage. Now it can still be tough if you don't scout it, but it's okay if you do scout it. Maybe the buff made Thor/hellion 2-base pushes riskier, but they're still viable if you try to hide it and they're just winning if your roach counts aren't high enough. I'm not sure if the scv change in the PTR would address the issue pre-patch a little, but probably not enough since it was strong even without scvs. PvZ: The roach actually changed this matchup a lot and a lot of protoss players are struggling with a style that's too stalker heavy because the roach is pretty cost effective against the stalker, but with really good sentry play (and I think this is where a lot of protoss players struggle as it can feel so random and hard), roaches can be dealt with, also quicker robos for immortals deal with this pretty effectively and also give a good transition into getting collosi later. ZvZ: You're probably not a zerg player, but it's actually a lot more subtle than this. When you see long games it's a lot of roaches, but right now there are a lot of transitions possible in the matchup, it's just that because of fungal growth which only acquires its devastating affects lategame, many units don't have lategame potential because fungal kind of counters them such as lings, banelings which both get 1 shot by fungal growth, but I think the dynamics past early game are actually pretty good and it's becoming a very interesting matchup in games that get past the early game, especially with FE becoming more viable.
I think you nitpick for no reason. The guy said we only see roaches everywhere, this is not the case and that's all I was saying : I didn't care to explain everything on the balance of roaches vs Thor / hellion or patches, didn't care to explain protoss issues with dealing with roaches (of course robo is a good answer too), and I didn't care to explain that in ZvZ you can open speedlings too or eventually get infestors...
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I actually think the game has become pretty balanced with the roach patch. Toss has gone more air and more immortal of late, and it's a good thing, because those strategies weren't used enough pre-patch. Some of the nerfs to terran were retarded as far as their tech path, but in general I at least feel I have a chance against terran and I simply want to be competitive.
Let's move back to the hydra. What do you think if you had another upgrade option for hydras, that included a speed upgrade. You thus would be forced to choose between speed or range upgrade (as opposed to both in one upgrade as was said). I think this delay of one of the upgrades makes a lot of sense. Maybe even force one of them to be made on hive tech? I'm at least interested to see how much the dynamics would change. I still contend it would probably break ZvP but i'd be curious to see it.
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On December 10 2010 02:57 koppik wrote:
It's something people have wanted for a long time, but 19 larvae per hatch is sort of crazy IMO. Some nerf to larvae inject is really needed to balance out Zerg's lategame push-forward. It's just way too much to handle.
But I'm happy with Blizzard taking it slow with patching things. I don't think they gave the fungal nerf and hold-down hotkey change enough time to really be tested, but whatever.
Cannot agree more. There needs to be a limit on larvae that is like 10 or even less. It is just too powerful late-game.
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On December 10 2010 04:26 TexSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 02:57 koppik wrote:
It's something people have wanted for a long time, but 19 larvae per hatch is sort of crazy IMO. Some nerf to larvae inject is really needed to balance out Zerg's lategame push-forward. It's just way too much to handle.
But I'm happy with Blizzard taking it slow with patching things. I don't think they gave the fungal nerf and hold-down hotkey change enough time to really be tested, but whatever. Cannot agree more. There needs to be a limit on larvae that is like 10 or even less. It is just too powerful late-game.
I wouldn't say that. The zerg has to float thousands of resources anyway - building a couple extra hatcheries wouldn't make much of a difference. The power wouldn't change, it'd just be another macro task for the Z player to take care of.
It's really the income macro machine that becomes a fear - a P that builds a 200/200 army off 2 base has to deal with a Z and his 200/200 army off 5 base. It's really hard for the Z to lose here becomes of that income, not the production capability that each hatchery allows.
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When is PTR coming back online ? The OP is confusing me.
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On December 10 2010 04:54 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 04:26 TexSC wrote:On December 10 2010 02:57 koppik wrote:
It's something people have wanted for a long time, but 19 larvae per hatch is sort of crazy IMO. Some nerf to larvae inject is really needed to balance out Zerg's lategame push-forward. It's just way too much to handle.
But I'm happy with Blizzard taking it slow with patching things. I don't think they gave the fungal nerf and hold-down hotkey change enough time to really be tested, but whatever. Cannot agree more. There needs to be a limit on larvae that is like 10 or even less. It is just too powerful late-game. I wouldn't say that. The zerg has to float thousands of resources anyway - building a couple extra hatcheries wouldn't make much of a difference. The power wouldn't change, it'd just be another macro task for the Z player to take care of. It's really the income macro machine that becomes a fear - a P that builds a 200/200 army off 2 base has to deal with a Z and his 200/200 army off 5 base. It's really hard for the Z to lose here becomes of that income, not the production capability that each hatchery allows.
This has a lot more to do with you letting your opponent get 3 bases ahead of you than anything else.
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EPT
