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On December 08 2010 02:09 HalfAmazing wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but you can't wall below ramp as TERRAN anymore. You absolutely needed a double wall-in to hold zerg all-ins (1 or 2 base) while teching. This is fucking pathetic. Blizzard is fucking up so hard.
What in tarnations are you talking about?
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On December 08 2010 03:45 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
It sounds like you wall too much. Spend the money on units instead of buildings you will lose and you can still tech up. A full wall isn't even strictly necessary to stop most rushes. Much of the reasons pros do it is to deny scouts. Terran will still have no trouble making an easy wall with these changes.
Thank you for your unsolicited advice. :-) The changes are actually irrelevant since you can still do a double wall-in (with a depot/rax below ramp). I'll let you have your opinion while I keep playing against the best in the world (and winning) in ladder and customs on both EU and US. :-)
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On December 08 2010 04:19 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 02:09 HalfAmazing wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but you can't wall below ramp as TERRAN anymore. You absolutely needed a double wall-in to hold zerg all-ins (1 or 2 base) while teching. This is fucking pathetic. Blizzard is fucking up so hard. What in tarnations are you talking about?
Strategy so advanced the value of it hasn't occured to you yet. :-)
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In case anyone is interested, there's a pretty good article written here on the PTR changes with respect to the map editor.
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I don't understand the 2 pylon wall removed thing, does that mean we can wall off the ramp with 1 pylon now?
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On December 08 2010 05:58 PaPoolee wrote:
I don't understand the 2 pylon wall removed thing, does that mean we can wall off the ramp with 1 pylon now?
uh no. it was deemed that walling of a ramp with 2 pylons was a little op, so its either been adjusted to a 3 pylon wall or not blocakble at all. (most likely the former)
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On December 07 2010 15:58 spacemonkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:57 Drazlok wrote:
I don't think they are quite as fast but I'm not sure. Even if it is say they hit your workers and then they back out and fly to your expo. Then you go to your expo and they fly back to your main. So you split your hydras and then he goes hunting overlords. So you pull them back, if you haven't already. Your not killing many mutas, hes holding you in your base and has total map control. All the while getting tons more mutas. Welcome to T & P world.
1) Zerg has the worst static air defense
2) Zerg does not have any core tier 1 combat unit that shoot up (Mass queens is not a solution)
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Mass queens is not a solution
It's a great solution, because they have 250 HP (175 + healing)
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On December 04 2010 17:40 Mojeca wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the lack of discussion about the bottom of the ramp. No longer can 2 pylons block it off, this is a pretty big change. I'm all in favor of it, but still. Where is nation of QQ I have come to expect from this site?
Toss don't whine nearly as much as other players..
Maybe due to the nerf beatdown all beta we kind of expect it?
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Ah, the toss and terran QQ..same old, same old, yet so refreshing
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oh wow, so this is what blizzards been working on
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On December 08 2010 08:34 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:40 Mojeca wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the lack of discussion about the bottom of the ramp. No longer can 2 pylons block it off, this is a pretty big change. I'm all in favor of it, but still. Where is nation of QQ I have come to expect from this site? Toss don't whine nearly as much as other players.. Maybe due to the nerf beatdown all beta we kind of expect it?
Protoss was traditionally less successful than Zerg and Terran in Broodwar. I imagine that's lowered Protoss expectations.
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On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure)..
Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe.
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On December 08 2010 08:44 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:34 Rarak wrote:On December 04 2010 17:40 Mojeca wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the lack of discussion about the bottom of the ramp. No longer can 2 pylons block it off, this is a pretty big change. I'm all in favor of it, but still. Where is nation of QQ I have come to expect from this site? Toss don't whine nearly as much as other players.. Maybe due to the nerf beatdown all beta we kind of expect it? Protoss was traditionally less successful than Zerg and Terran in Broodwar. I imagine that's lowered Protoss expectations.
But I would wager that the majority of players did not follow the BW pro-scene so I don't think the notion of 'lowered expectations' stems from that.
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On December 07 2010 15:58 spacemonkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:57 Drazlok wrote:
I don't think they are quite as fast but I'm not sure. Even if it is say they hit your workers and then they back out and fly to your expo. Then you go to your expo and they fly back to your main. So you split your hydras and then he goes hunting overlords. So you pull them back, if you haven't already. Your not killing many mutas, hes holding you in your base and has total map control. All the while getting tons more mutas. Welcome to T & P world.
Except... hydralisks are only fast on creep. Marines can stim anywhere and get the movement speed increase. Blink stalkers can blink anywhere too. Even still, both Terran and Protoss have other options that make marines and stalkers that much more effective.
Terrans have other options for dealing with mutalisks (thors, ravens for PDD, turrets with repair). Protoss already had blink stalkers and cannons, and phoenix were an amazing response to mutalisks if you catch him going spire (or just open stargate). Now phoenix are even better.
Zerg had either infestors & hydralisks or going mutalisks yourself. If this change had gone through, it would have made the matchup retardedly predictable -- you see a spire, you gotta go spire too. If you catch it late, well, I hope you were building queens, because the best you can manage at this point is losing map control and maybe only a few drones/overlords.
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On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe.
Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep:
Zergling
Roach
Ultralisk -- Baneling
Hydralisk
Infestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep)
Drone (hydra is slower off-creep)
Queen
Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep.
To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep.
I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that).
EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards.
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On December 08 2010 06:12 Existor wrote:It's a great solution, because they have 250 HP (175 + healing)
maybe if they came from larvae instead of popping out of the hatchery, otherwise, not really.
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On December 08 2010 06:11 Euriti wrote:
1) Zerg has the worst static air defense
2) Zerg does not have any core tier 1 combat unit that shoot up (Mass queens is not a solution)
That's completely wrong. Protoss static air defence does less dps, has less health and armour, costs more, and cannot be relocated. Getting extra queens is an excellent response to early air, as top players have repeatedly demonstrated.
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On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards.
Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception.
If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane.
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On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane.
Almost as good as a marine.
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EPT
