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On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine.
LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2.
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On December 08 2010 08:44 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:34 Rarak wrote:On December 04 2010 17:40 Mojeca wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the lack of discussion about the bottom of the ramp. No longer can 2 pylons block it off, this is a pretty big change. I'm all in favor of it, but still. Where is nation of QQ I have come to expect from this site? Toss don't whine nearly as much as other players.. Maybe due to the nerf beatdown all beta we kind of expect it? Protoss was traditionally less successful than Zerg and Terran in Broodwar. I imagine that's lowered Protoss expectations.
Does this mean we should have lower spectations for sc2 toss as well ? I know both games are similar, but I wouldn't call it equal so maybe there will be a flash/dong playing toss in sc2.
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On December 08 2010 08:44 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:34 Rarak wrote:On December 04 2010 17:40 Mojeca wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the lack of discussion about the bottom of the ramp. No longer can 2 pylons block it off, this is a pretty big change. I'm all in favor of it, but still. Where is nation of QQ I have come to expect from this site? Toss don't whine nearly as much as other players.. Maybe due to the nerf beatdown all beta we kind of expect it? Protoss was traditionally less successful than Zerg and Terran in Broodwar. I imagine that's lowered Protoss expectations.
SCBW is sacred don't even try to question its balance! The protoss players just sucked.
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On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane.
Hydras can't keep up with the rest of the Z army on-creep or off, terrible unit is still terrible, even if it gets a larger speed bonus than the rest.
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I'll preface this by saying, I'm a zerg player, and i recognize that we complain the most of any players in the game. Playing zerg is hard. That's just a fact. That said, I feel like the races have gotten more balanced since the roach buff and in general, there isn't a ton i can complain about, that if changed wouldn't break the game in another way.
On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that).
Yeah, it sucks to use hydralisks against terran, but the reality is that you can't buff their speed without absolutely screwing toss. I think the complaint is that we can't find a real use for them vs. terran because they're too squishy, so we look to buff their speed or other solutions. I'd think that if we had a lurker den of sorts, there'd be a purpose for going hydra and would allow some increased creativity, in the ground army of zerg. If you had a potent lurker option wouldn't you start finding more ways of utilizing ling, roach, hydra and lurker, instead of going ling, bling and muta every time? It's not like tanks and marines and medics, didn't absolutely own lings and hydras in BW. It's just that we now don't have the option of going defiler and lurkers. To me the problem is the support units, not the core units.
On December 08 2010 06:11 Euriti wrote:
1) Zerg has the worst static air defense
2) Zerg does not have any core tier 1 combat unit that shoot up (Mass queens is not a solution)
one thing that isn't realized in this is that the hydra den builds super quick for exactly this reason. In ZvZ you have a chance of getting back into a game if your opponent goes muta before you if you've stayed on roach tech too long. Hydra den builds very quickly to combat air. Yeah we have to scout, and maybe it's more important for us to scout than other races, but that's the trade off of having such a quick ability to change army composition so quickly. You can't just say, because I have a tier 1 unit that hits air, I don't need to do scouting. You should be scouting, if you scout, you should generally have enough flexibility to adapt. I'm terrible at scouting, but I know that when I get caught with my pants down by voidrays, the fault is mine for not scouting it.
I could see an argument for at least having a speed upgrade for hydras, but for the sake of toss players, I think you'd need to do something about the hydras dps. The solution isn't solely, improve their speed. The solution is more complicated than that it seems and requires tinkering beyond just the hydra imo. However, for the time being, I'm ok with the race as is until the next expansion pack.
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edited: old news 
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I really didn't like the chat room layout (although it's what I expected), but I already miss them going back to the live version. Hope PTR is back up soon.
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Does anyone have a link to the pic showing the Ultralisk AOE now with the buff? I remember seeing one with two circles showing the old and new.
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On December 09 2010 05:26 Pervect wrote:
I really didn't like the chat room layout (although it's what I expected), but I already miss them going back to the live version. Hope PTR is back up soon.
theyre not as good as original ones, but hey, at least we got them.
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ooo i can finally re hotkey probes to p :O
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Never mind, found it.
![[image loading]](http://aphasic.com/misc/ultra.png)
Is this truly how Ultra AOE works now?
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On December 08 2010 05:05 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:45 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
It sounds like you wall too much. Spend the money on units instead of buildings you will lose and you can still tech up. A full wall isn't even strictly necessary to stop most rushes. Much of the reasons pros do it is to deny scouts. Terran will still have no trouble making an easy wall with these changes. Thank you for your unsolicited advice. :-) The changes are actually irrelevant since you can still do a double wall-in (with a depot/rax below ramp). I'll let you have your opinion while I keep playing against the best in the world (and winning) in ladder and customs on both EU and US. :-)
Props on the doublepost,
On December 08 2010 05:06 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:19 junemermaid wrote:On December 08 2010 02:09 HalfAmazing wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but you can't wall below ramp as TERRAN anymore. You absolutely needed a double wall-in to hold zerg all-ins (1 or 2 base) while teching. This is fucking pathetic. Blizzard is fucking up so hard. What in tarnations are you talking about? Strategy so advanced the value of it hasn't occured to you yet. :-)
More props because you came back to say absolutely nothing. How can you complain about walling in, then immediately yell at someone else for disagreeing with what you said
BY DISAGREEING WITH WHAT YOU SAID
Then to come back and riposte to someone pointing out the stupidity of your own statement by needlessly throwing your e-weight around......
This is what a post is supposed to look like.
Interested to see how the phoenix change will affect P's ability to respond to mutas as well as phoenix play in general. Also curious to see how Void ray + massive damage will work out against thor timing pushes and ultras. Even though it was intended to return them to their role as Cattlebruiser killers.
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hold on...can we talk about how bad that new map is? i think blizzard just one-upped themselves and created THE WORST map ever. god have mercy on the next GSL if they start incorporating it
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On December 09 2010 16:17 skronch wrote:
hold on...can we talk about how bad that new map is? i think blizzard just one-upped themselves and created THE WORST map ever. god have mercy on the next GSL if they start incorporating it
It's pretty bad, but then so in Agria Valley, and you don't see Blizzard adding that one to the map pool. Let's actually wait to see if it is moved out of the custom dungeon before we start QQing too hard. For what it's worth, I quite enjoyed the PvT I played on Plunder Isle.
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On December 09 2010 06:25 Joementum wrote:
Is this truly how Ultra AOE works now?
In addition to the previous posters link, the shaded area below is how it works now.
![[image loading]](http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Eyedrop2/ultra.png)
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On December 08 2010 22:38 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 10:13 iCanada wrote:On December 08 2010 10:06 suejak wrote:On December 08 2010 09:52 Toxigen wrote:On December 08 2010 08:58 link0 wrote:On December 07 2010 16:54 theqat wrote:
Hydras are not really that close to Muta movespeed. Mutas are 3.75 and on-creep Hydras are 2.85-2.95 or so (not totally sure).. Hydras are 3+ on creep. They are around 3.2 (aka fast as hell) I believe. Isn't that all relative, though? Here's a list of Zerg ground units from fastest to slowest, with upgrades, on creep: Zergling Roach Ultralisk -- Baneling HydraliskInfestor (the hydralisk is BARELY faster, by .125, and the hydra is slower off-creep) Drone (hydra is slower off-creep) Queen Basically, any Zerg ground unit that fights and doesn't have an energy bar is faster than the hydralisk by almost .5. They're the slowest fighting unit in the Zerg arsenal, and in most cases, by a large margin. And that's ON creep. To put the off-creep speed of hydralisks in perspective, a spine crawler on creep is noticeably faster than a hydralisk off creep. I'm still of the opinion that a hydralisk is a weak unit except against Protoss. If gateway units weren't so laughably bad against hydralisks, I'd say buffing hydras wouldn't be completely out of order. As it is, it's simply a very situational unit (AA, primarily, and it's not even that good at that). EDIT: My point is that it's not really a trade-off to say that hydralisks' slow speed off creep is at the cost of its speed on creep when all Zerg ground units are faster in both regards. Yo man, compare zerg units to terran or protoss units. Zerg units are FAST, and on-creep hydras are no exception. If hydras were fast off-creep too, they'd be insane. Almost as good as a marine. LOL, but in fact it's true. Marines are the best units in sc2.
I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc. In fact their use in PvZ is already diminishing ALOT as many zergs are realising that pure roach with lots of upgrades (burrow, claws etc) is usually just better then hydra/roach. If anything adding a few infestors and teching tier 3 quicker does more to improve your arc and overall damage then adding hydra's does.
The hydra in it's current state only has 2 good uses imo:
- air counter
- an early tier 2 push.
THe hydra definately needs a buff as is, not only to give zerg more options overall but also to buff some lines of play imo. Buffing them directly makes the tier 2 push too strong though so I think the best way to buff the hydra is to make the upgrade BETTER. Increasing the research time at the same time would however keep the hydra's from dominating to much at begin tier 2 in PvZ though.
I'd change this if were to patch them:
Hydra creep speed multiplier changed from 1.5x to 1.3x
grooved spines research time increased from 80 to 110 seconds
grooved spines now gives hydra's +1 range and +0.5 speed.
This way hydra's are much more viable as unit in general and some classic beta strats like skipping roaches and going straight hydralisks would come back perhaps. Hydra's would be a more useful alternative against terran as well (as they would do decent against the pure tank/rine strats) and hydra's would be buffed in the endgame against protoss & zerg. At the same time the hydra push would be kept in check though as that would be hard to perform really quickly.
The real reason though I suspect blizzard is keeping the hydra's in check is that they want to add the lurker in the expansion. That alone would make hydra's MUCH stronger as you would have a way to get rid of your hydra's when P or T get the counters to them (tanks or colossi). I suspect the lurker to be added and be some kind of armored unit so because of that the hydra probably isn't allowed to be too good now.
I think blizzard is trying to establish a basic kind of balance in the game and then add units / options in the expansion that leave that balance in tact while adding a few new dimensions to the game. Basically I think they will be either adding endgame stuff (which has almost no influence on balance), niche units such as scourge, dark archon etc(which again influences balance hardly) or changes to existing underused units such as giving the hydralisk a lurker upgrade.
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100 people is way to small... what if some one wants to host a 128, 256, ect. tournament?
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On December 10 2010 00:03 Dogsi wrote:
100 people is way to small... what if some one wants to host a 128, 256, ect. tournament?
Then they divide it into 4 channels of 64 players, as a example. Main point being you can make more than 1 channel :p
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I didn't play much with chat channels, but one thing my friends always did in sc1 and d2 was like.. we just had a 'home' channel that we all went to every time we signed on - if we weren't in a game, then we'd be in the channel to chat.
Is that not possible in sc2? I heard that in a private channel people can't randomly join, you have to invite them... even if they're on your friends list?
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EPT
