EPTPatch 1.2.0 on PTR - Page 150
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opm1s6
United States42 Posts
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Malpractice.248
United States734 Posts
So, i'm not going to go into PvZ because i feel its pretty balanced atm (esp after the nerf to ultra, and buff to phoenixes, the P just shouldnt let us get mid game unless theyre going to force a macro race and go super late) Anyway, ZvT is where a big issue lies. As said by ret, i believe it what, T is OP vs Z early, and Z is OP vs T late late game (thus why u dont see games last to t3) However, we MUST 14 hatch to have a chance vs the 2rax+scv rush, we need the creep/larva, and having access to drones fast... Plus, if we 1 base, we're severely behind going into mid game (we dont have mules..and only so much larva..), Plus, they can just contain us and block the hatch w/bunkers. The ability to rush us so effectively early and fall back on defensive structures (walls, bunkers) and mules to protect themselves INCASE the rush gets blocked is insane. The z cant really counter due to this, and must drone up hoping to keep up with T econ, but the T is prob making another, better army to push with shortly. Furthermore, when they go marine+hellion (or just hellion) into banshees, its EXTREMELY hard to beat, or even into tanks.. We are forced to drop spines (which we should anyway, but they are by far the worst tower on ground, ill go into this later) and get roaches. This makes stoping banshees even harder, due to the resources/larva spent stopping something that only costs T minerals (and not much at that) Late game, it gets balanced a bit, if we're allowed to freely macro, which never happens. Even so, if the T drops 4-5 OCs they can outproduce us (double as depots, pays themselves off VERY fast, and allows scans) However, their use of drops and ledges etc makes it very hard to stop harrassing, where as they can just drop missile turrets and severely cut our ability Also, when they DO rush, they get to place bunkers they can just refund @ any time.. I find myself pidgeon holed into being very reactionary, to a point that it hurts my econ/macro/tech options quite a bit. Yes, we're a reactionary race, but we just about HAVE to go sling/bling, and most likely muta/roach as well. But the pressure coupled with the lack of larva and having to rebuy units a lot, equals less resources to get other things in the tech tree. Some things i think would help balance it out... 1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES. 2)Bunker refunding should be a % of the remaining HP... Really, salvaging a burning bunker for full refund is just retarded. So we have to choose between killing the rines (while they kill your units) or let them get minerals back.. 3) Static defenses. Spines SHOULD be 40 seconds to make (not 50) and maybe a few sec cut off root time (it takes an hour atm, just tested it) plus costs us one of our much needed drones early. Cannons take 40 sec, have higher dps, same hp (but regen faster), and can shoot air AND ground, and DOESNT cost a probe. Bunkers can be refunded, and are quite nice. I mean really? 3b) Spores... again, take an hour (extensively tested) to re-root, and needs to be placed nearly perfectly to stop banshees/voids. Even so, to place the number other races can/do, it costs us drones. 4) Ultras. Need. A. Buff. They are terrible. u can get 6 banelings for the cost of ONE ultra, at a much faster rate. These also dont die every time before reaching their target unless in massive numbers, are useful when burrowed (if at least for mind games), and are scary. They also have much much better pathing/sizing. Ultras are like cuddly pedo bears. They just want to get up to you and hug you, but they cant, they get shot to death before they can do so. Even WHEN they do, the dmg is really small, and a well placed thor can stop its entire splash radius. --I know they changed the splash starting point from the middle of ultra to like... where its head is.. and if u look @ TL testing, it actually is a NERF AGAIN. It loses a few targets (off to its side) if its surrounded or even just semi-surrounded.. 5) OCs. Put a cooldown on them PLEASE. Or lower energy rate. Say theyre in combat, they can just let the energy build up (or wait to use 2-4 of them 2-4 times each when they move a OC to a new base, thus giving them insane mineral rate), while the Z has to continually look back (or use minimap) to keep spawning larva or we LOSE PRODUCTION. T loses nothing by waiting on casting mules, actually, they gain a bit, due to having scans wherever/whenever they want.. --Rant over. =p | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
a P that builds a 200/200 army off 2 base has to deal with a Z and his 200/200 army off 5 base. It's really hard for the Z to lose here becomes of that income, not the production capability that each hatchery allows. Oh just btw... If your down by 3(!) base u should get roflstomped as hard as possible... You already lost at this point. Thats liks comparing 3base Zerg vs 3base Protoss, u dont stand a chance as Zerg. @Roach Guys, how is the roach suddenly broken again? There is no roach-only-massing possible, if u have a decent enemy. To be honest I think the roach change really balanced the game pretty good, there is a lot of work to do, but the game is not nearly in a state as it was before the range change. @Hydra Yes the Hydra needs a change, it is just so situational viabel. Also I think many missunderstand the appearence of many roaches, especially in ZvP. We dont make many roaches, because roaches are so OP, we make them because Hydra are only a short amount of time an option (untill they hit some colossi, then u need corrupter). Also Hydra cripples your chances to get aggressive and hit timing windows, because they need ages to get to the enemy. Yes creep spread... just search for it, creepspreading takes a long time and is easily stopped, if they have mobile detection. | ||
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eNtitY~
United States1293 Posts
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Kallo
United States11 Posts
 . anyways I finally have a reason to post something and it is just my opinion on something that I think they should test in the PTR.I recently got to contemplating (after a few 1500 diamond games), why it is that people lose so easily after battles in this game, and at first i chalked it up to the fact that its easy to keep every unit in one control group and attack move and just hope you macro'd well enough (hence the big "ball" fights that end games). then i got to thinking that mabye it is something else. I started thinking about all the instances where people lose a battle at the front (or near) one players base. These fights usually end up in the player that is attacking haveing just enough units left over after the battle to steamroll there opponent even if he only won the fight with like say... 6 marines remaining. This led me to look at BW for differences in the amount of health units have vs how much they deal. how much dmg units deal is mildly...well, mabye heavily in some cases, inflated when compared to BW, but all the unit health stayed the same. Now this is not a big problem when talking about army vs army conflicts cause those units are SUPPOSED to fight each other. What concerns me though is the health of WORKER units that stayed the same from BW (with the exception of SCV's). now imaging the scenario that i depicted where the attacker barely wins the battle with like 6 marines left, except this time, scv/drone/probe health were inflated to compensate for the inflated damage of army units. this would allow the defender to defend with mabye the few units that spawn out of his production facilities + his workers without losing absolutely ALL the workers and doing no dmg with them, which might as well be GG anyways. In short, I think that increasing worker health would make games be more macro oriented and not so lopsided when someone wins a decisive battle (but if they win the battle with like a crushing victory that is another story, i think they would steamroll the opponent anyways). I also think it would help against all-ins such as marine-scv all-ins because even though his scv's are also stronger, his marines will be much more susceptible to a worker surround with your stronger workers and wouldn't just evaporate. This is just my opinion on a possible change i would like to see tested. please feel free to tell me that I am an idiot for thinking such thing . I just think that it would help with the fragility of games in SC2 at the moment. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote:... I don't think any of those points are even remotely valid... No one I have ever heard complained about any one of your points. Ever. It seems like your problems are your problems, not a problem with the race, or with balance. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote: 5) OCs. Put a cooldown on them PLEASE. Or lower energy rate. Say theyre in combat, they can just let the energy build up (or wait to use 2-4 of them 2-4 times each when they move a OC to a new base, thus giving them insane mineral rate), while the Z has to continually look back (or use minimap) to keep spawning larva or we LOSE PRODUCTION. T loses nothing by waiting on casting mules, actually, they gain a bit, due to having scans wherever/whenever they want.. --Rant over. =p Macro hatches. They only cost 350 minerals. Use them. Love them. Profit. If you can't keep up on your queen cycles, drop a hatchery nearby and watch your game improve immediately. Not only are you able to use up that extra energy, but you get extra larva from the hatch while you continue to miss your injects. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 10 2010 08:49 Kallo wrote: Hey, just signed up to the forums but have been a hardcore TL forum reader for a year now . anyways I finally have a reason to post something and it is just my opinion on something that I think they should test in the PTR.I recently got to contemplating (after a few 1500 diamond games), why it is that people lose so easily after battles in this game, and at first i chalked it up to the fact that its easy to keep every unit in one control group and attack move and just hope you macro'd well enough (hence the big "ball" fights that end games). then i got to thinking that mabye it is something else. I started thinking about all the instances where people lose a battle at the front (or near) one players base. These fights usually end up in the player that is attacking haveing just enough units left over after the battle to steamroll there opponent even if he only won the fight with like say... 6 marines remaining. This led me to look at BW for differences in the amount of health units have vs how much they deal. how much dmg units deal is mildly...well, mabye heavily in some cases, inflated when compared to BW, but all the unit health stayed the same. Now this is not a big problem when talking about army vs army conflicts cause those units are SUPPOSED to fight each other. What concerns me though is the health of WORKER units that stayed the same from BW (with the exception of SCV's). now imaging the scenario that i depicted where the attacker barely wins the battle with like 6 marines left, except this time, scv/drone/probe health were inflated to compensate for the inflated damage of army units. this would allow the defender to defend with mabye the few units that spawn out of his production facilities + his workers without losing absolutely ALL the workers and doing no dmg with them, which might as well be GG anyways. In short, I think that increasing worker health would make games be more macro oriented and not so lopsided when someone wins a decisive battle (but if they win the battle with like a crushing victory that is another story, i think they would steamroll the opponent anyways). I also think it would help against all-ins such as marine-scv all-ins because even though his scv's are also stronger, his marines will be much more susceptible to a worker surround with your stronger workers and wouldn't just evaporate. This is just my opinion on a possible change i would like to see tested. please feel free to tell me that I am an idiot for thinking such thing . I just think that it would help with the fragility of games in SC2 at the moment.Increasing worker health for Zerg and Protoss perhaps, but not Terran. Increasing SCV health would only lead to massive SCV all-ins every single game as we saw in the Beta when it was higher. Still increasing Zerg or Protoss worker health may also lead to more worker all-ins, and have the opposite effect you are wanting. The problem with worker health is that it goes both ways. Increasing it increases defensive abilities, but also offensive possibilities. What they need are larger maps, problem solved. | ||
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itsben
435 Posts
On December 10 2010 09:14 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Increasing worker health for Zerg and Protoss perhaps, but not Terran. Increasing SCV health would only lead to massive SCV all-ins every single game as we saw in the Beta when it was higher. Still increasing Zerg or Protoss worker health may also lead to more worker all-ins, and have the opposite effect you are wanting. The problem with worker health is that it goes both ways. Increasing it increases defensive abilities, but also offensive possibilities. What they need are larger maps, problem solved. Scvs will always have the most health because they don't have shields or health regeneration. Raising health of all workers is still retarted though because then drops would be a lot worse. Also if you lose at your base, its your own fault assuming both players are about equal. Unless it's a retarted map like blistering sands you have defender's advantage. | ||
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Gnarg
Netherlands165 Posts
On December 10 2010 09:14 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: Increasing worker health for Zerg and Protoss perhaps, but not Terran. Increasing SCV health would only lead to massive SCV all-ins every single game as we saw in the Beta when it was higher. Still increasing Zerg or Protoss worker health may also lead to more worker all-ins, and have the opposite effect you are wanting. The problem with worker health is that it goes both ways. Increasing it increases defensive abilities, but also offensive possibilities. What they need are larger maps, problem solved. Your comparison to beta is false, since in beta only the SCV had high health, leading to all the all-ins. If the health of all workers would be raised by the same amount, it would have an entirely different effect. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On December 10 2010 09:21 itsben wrote: Scvs will always have the most health because they don't have shields or health regeneration. SCVs can be repaired. They require more HP so that they can survive their scouting duties longer since repair SCVs aren't on-hand. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
1) Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted 2) Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units 3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command The power of QQ On December 07 2010 05:00 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: This patch doesn't address the real issues with the game at the moment: 1) Terran's very strong early game, and their very weak late game. 2) The absurdly skewed maps, which nearly all significantly favor one race in a matchup agree, maps are not only bad but are boring already On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote: 1) Hellions (nerf) 2)Bunker (nerf) 3) Static defenses. Spines (buff) 4) Ultras. (buff) 5) OCs. (nerf) Seriously? | ||
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Kallo
United States11 Posts
Increasing worker health for Zerg and Protoss perhaps, but not Terran. Increasing SCV health would only lead to massive SCV all-ins every single game as we saw in the Beta when it was higher. Still increasing Zerg or Protoss worker health may also lead to more worker all-ins, and have the opposite effect you are wanting. The problem with worker health is that it goes both ways. Increasing it increases defensive abilities, but also offensive possibilities. What they need are larger maps, problem solved. I fail to see how increasing worker health across the board would make all-ins with workers MORE likely... if the increase is across the board then that also means your workers are stronger... so fight back with your workers if you scout the all in. In the beta ONLY the SCV health was nerfed... because they were to strong compared to other workers. but if all workers are stronger then everything seems fair and you can use ure harvesters to.... this concept is taking the entire subject of balance between the races out of the question because it only effects workers. Scvs will always have the most health because they don't have shields or health regeneration. Raising health of all workers is still retarted though because then drops would be a lot worse. Also if you lose at your base, its your own fault assuming both players are about equal. Unless it's a retarted map like blistering sands you have defender's advantage. yes i can see how it would make drops less effective, but by how much? would it totally make drops not worth doing? i would think not. compare this to the advantage of being able to defend with your workers and not having them melt and you instantly lose the game, it seems like a nice trade off to me.I'm just saying that the amount of effort it takes to load up a medivac and take it to the enemy's base vs the amount of economic damage it can do seems a little out of proportion in favor of the drop. comebacks of SC2 right now are almost none existent, and i think that is due in part to how easily it is to damage someones economy. I think that tweeks should be made to make protoss and zerg harassment options a little more viable compared to terran, but that is a whole different balance discussion in itself. | ||
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itsben
435 Posts
On December 10 2010 09:37 Kallo wrote: I fail to see how increasing worker health across the board would make all-ins with workers MORE likely... if the increase is across the board then that also means your workers are stronger... so fight back with your workers if you scout the all in. In the beta ONLY the SCV health was nerfed... because they were to strong compared to other workers. but if all workers are stronger then everything seems fair and you can use ure harvesters to.... this concept is taking the entire subject of balance between the races out of the question because it only effects workers. yes i can see how it would make drops less effective, but by how much? would it totally make drops not worth doing? i would think not. compare this to the advantage of being able to defend with your workers and not having them melt and you instantly lose the game, it seems like a nice trade off to me.I'm just saying that the amount of effort it takes to load up a medivac and take it to the enemy's base vs the amount of economic damage it can do seems a little out of proportion in favor of the drop. comebacks of SC2 right now are almost none existent, and i think that is due in part to how easily it is to damage someones economy. I think that tweeks should be made to make protoss and zerg harassment options a little more viable compared to terran, but that is a whole different balance discussion in itself. Obviously depends on how much hp they raise it by obviously. This might also cause the death of any units made for harassing like helions and banshees. Zergling run bys are also so much more useless. | ||
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Kallo
United States11 Posts
Obviously depends on how much hp they raise it by obviously. This might also cause the death of any units made for harassing like helions and banshees. Zergling run bys are also so much more useless. True, that is one way to look at it, but from my view some forms of harassment are WAY to effective as is. Banshees for instance, I don't think should be averaging anywhere from 8 to 15 probe kills even in pro level matches... but they do because they are just that powerful if micro'd correctly. hellions don't have much of a use besides harassment (and killing zerglings and zealots....well i don't see them getting in number to kill zealots a lot.), so i could see them receiving some sort of compensation after such a change to make them useful (mabye an ability that makes them not so one dimensional). and maybe its just me, but i dont think a zergling run by of 6 lings should kill more than one or to probes neways, and if you run by with say 10-15 zerglings, then I don't think the HP of the probes matters cause ure pretty much gonna kill them all anyways (unless ure opponent uses some sick mineral walking micro to save them all ) | ||
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Kallo
United States11 Posts
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Joementum
787 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 10 2010 07:44 eNtitY~ wrote: Is the PTR over? It's been down for me for days Its not over they are doing maintenance to revert some of the changes the bunker time reduction will go back to normal. Fungal will go back to being able to affect air. Reverthing the Key press so it goes back to you can hold down keys to issue commands basically hold z for 10 zerglings etc instead of pressing z 10 times. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote: This is a LONG post. Maybe a bit of a rant, but making valid points.. 1) Hellions (nerf) 2)Bunker (nerf) 3) Static defenses. Spines (buff) 4) Ultras. (buff) 5) OCs. (nerf) --Rant over. =p This whole post is pretty ridiculous. Why you start off with saying 'oh I know Z is OP late and T OP early' then going into a whole bunch of random nerfs to T and BUFFS to lategame Z... I'll never know. I mean the fact you are comparing a baneling to an ultralisk is just laughable. They are not even close to being comparable in their roles. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On December 10 2010 06:22 Malpractice.248 wrote: This is a LONG post. Maybe a bit of a rant, but making valid points.. So, i'm not going to go into PvZ because i feel its pretty balanced atm (esp after the nerf to ultra, and buff to phoenixes, the P just shouldnt let us get mid game unless theyre going to force a macro race and go super late) Anyway, ZvT is where a big issue lies. As said by ret, i believe it what, T is OP vs Z early, and Z is OP vs T late late game (thus why u dont see games last to t3) However, we MUST 14 hatch to have a chance vs the 2rax+scv rush, we need the creep/larva, and having access to drones fast... Plus, if we 1 base, we're severely behind going into mid game (we dont have mules..and only so much larva..), Plus, they can just contain us and block the hatch w/bunkers. The ability to rush us so effectively early and fall back on defensive structures (walls, bunkers) and mules to protect themselves INCASE the rush gets blocked is insane. The z cant really counter due to this, and must drone up hoping to keep up with T econ, but the T is prob making another, better army to push with shortly. Furthermore, when they go marine+hellion (or just hellion) into banshees, its EXTREMELY hard to beat, or even into tanks.. We are forced to drop spines (which we should anyway, but they are by far the worst tower on ground, ill go into this later) and get roaches. This makes stoping banshees even harder, due to the resources/larva spent stopping something that only costs T minerals (and not much at that) Late game, it gets balanced a bit, if we're allowed to freely macro, which never happens. Even so, if the T drops 4-5 OCs they can outproduce us (double as depots, pays themselves off VERY fast, and allows scans) However, their use of drops and ledges etc makes it very hard to stop harrassing, where as they can just drop missile turrets and severely cut our ability Also, when they DO rush, they get to place bunkers they can just refund @ any time.. I find myself pidgeon holed into being very reactionary, to a point that it hurts my econ/macro/tech options quite a bit. Yes, we're a reactionary race, but we just about HAVE to go sling/bling, and most likely muta/roach as well. But the pressure coupled with the lack of larva and having to rebuy units a lot, equals less resources to get other things in the tech tree. Some things i think would help balance it out... 1) Hellions NEED to be like roaches in cost. 75 mins, 25 gas. At least. They are fast, they are CARS and they SHOOT FLAMES. 2)Bunker refunding should be a % of the remaining HP... Really, salvaging a burning bunker for full refund is just retarded. So we have to choose between killing the rines (while they kill your units) or let them get minerals back.. 3) Static defenses. Spines SHOULD be 40 seconds to make (not 50) and maybe a few sec cut off root time (it takes an hour atm, just tested it) plus costs us one of our much needed drones early. Cannons take 40 sec, have higher dps, same hp (but regen faster), and can shoot air AND ground, and DOESNT cost a probe. Bunkers can be refunded, and are quite nice. I mean really? 3b) Spores... again, take an hour (extensively tested) to re-root, and needs to be placed nearly perfectly to stop banshees/voids. Even so, to place the number other races can/do, it costs us drones. 4) Ultras. Need. A. Buff. They are terrible. u can get 6 banelings for the cost of ONE ultra, at a much faster rate. These also dont die every time before reaching their target unless in massive numbers, are useful when burrowed (if at least for mind games), and are scary. They also have much much better pathing/sizing. Ultras are like cuddly pedo bears. They just want to get up to you and hug you, but they cant, they get shot to death before they can do so. Even WHEN they do, the dmg is really small, and a well placed thor can stop its entire splash radius. --I know they changed the splash starting point from the middle of ultra to like... where its head is.. and if u look @ TL testing, it actually is a NERF AGAIN. It loses a few targets (off to its side) if its surrounded or even just semi-surrounded.. 5) OCs. Put a cooldown on them PLEASE. Or lower energy rate. Say theyre in combat, they can just let the energy build up (or wait to use 2-4 of them 2-4 times each when they move a OC to a new base, thus giving them insane mineral rate), while the Z has to continually look back (or use minimap) to keep spawning larva or we LOSE PRODUCTION. T loses nothing by waiting on casting mules, actually, they gain a bit, due to having scans wherever/whenever they want.. --Rant over. =p So your solution to fix weak terran late game is to nerf terran and buff zerg? | ||
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