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Lipski
Poland373 Posts
On December 10 2010 23:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Zerg may be able to spend all their money on drones, but MULEs are free. Both in cost AND supply as well as them being able to oversaturate mineral fields. this is not true. this is like saying inject larvae is free. saying that forgetting to drop a mule is no-big-deal is not true either. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On December 12 2010 05:59 Lipski wrote: this is not true. this is like saying inject larvae is free. saying that forgetting to drop a mule is no-big-deal is not true either. I really don't want to get into the argument but larvae inject does not stack. Mules do. So that is a big difference. | ||
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donkkk
44 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:08 Piski wrote: I really don't want to get into the argument but larvae inject does not stack. Mules do. So that is a big difference. when protoss or terran supply blocks/caps theres nothing they can do about it while zerg can just stack larvas, races are different u shouldnt compere larava to mule or chronoboost. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
You can not make an instant tech switch to whatever unit u want in late game as zerg can do. And you know why is that? because the races are COMPLETELY different. Stop comparing mule to larva inject please they are whole different things. And yeah, as T you can not make a brazilion Scv like you can with zerg (or not as fast but at a faster rate than t, probes) So stop arguing mules are imba cuz i would love to add a reactor to a cc or chrono boost | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:16 donkkk wrote: when protoss or terran supply blocks/caps theres nothing they can do about it while zerg can just stack larvas, races are different u shouldnt compere larava to mule or chronoboost. His point is that other races need to spend money and supply on workers, and are limited by the saturation of a mineral field. Mule gets by all of these. One OC's worth of mules can provide the income of about 3.1 SCVs - that's 3.1 SCVs past saturation, for 0 supply. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
You cannot give a mechanic to a race, which combined with their early game units, permits strong aggression, and then also give that same race the best defensive setup in the game. It's an obvious problem that I and a lot of other people saw coming months ago, and Blizzard has failed repeatedly to address the problem. Terran early game should be very very weak. It should be built around hiding behind and defending from the incredibly powerful defensive structures in the early game terran arsenal. | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On December 12 2010 07:09 pwadoc wrote: I'm a 2000+ diamond and I haven't won a TvZ in 3 weeks. Given the current state of the ptr, I'm thinking of just going to play another game. The terran race has been a problem since early beta, and blizzard obviously has no idea how to fix it. They've built in all of these mechanisms, like MULEs, that they can't remove, which completely break the game. You cannot give a mechanic to a race, which combined with their early game units, permits strong aggression, and then also give that same race the best defensive setup in the game. It's an obvious problem that I and a lot of other people saw coming months ago, and Blizzard has failed repeatedly to address the problem. Terran early game should be very very weak. It should be built around hiding behind and defending from the incredibly powerful defensive structures in the early game terran arsenal. this post makes absolotey no sense | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On December 12 2010 07:09 pwadoc wrote: I'm a 2000+ diamond and I haven't won a TvZ in 3 weeks. Given the current state of the ptr, I'm thinking of just going to play another game. The terran race has been a problem since early beta, and blizzard obviously has no idea how to fix it. They've built in all of these mechanisms, like MULEs, that they can't remove, which completely break the game. You cannot give a mechanic to a race, which combined with their early game units, permits strong aggression, and then also give that same race the best defensive setup in the game. It's an obvious problem that I and a lot of other people saw coming months ago, and Blizzard has failed repeatedly to address the problem. Terran early game should be very very weak. It should be built around hiding behind and defending from the incredibly powerful defensive structures in the early game terran arsenal. Sounds like you need to learn how to fast expand, then you will indeed find that the Terran race is very weak in the early game and gets stronger in the late game. | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
On December 12 2010 07:40 denzelz wrote: Sounds like you need to learn how to fast expand, then you will indeed find that the Terran race is very weak in the early game and gets stronger in the late game. Every zerg fast expands. Of course, when we do, and the constant terran marine pushes, fueled by MULEs overwhelm us, our opponents claim that it's because we fast expanded. It's broken, it has been broken, the ptr changes don't do anything to fix it, and it's sad that terrans won't even admit how broken it is. | ||
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unbal3
Korea (South)131 Posts
On December 12 2010 07:09 pwadoc wrote: I'm a 2000+ diamond and I haven't won a TvZ in 3 weeks. Given the current state of the ptr, I'm thinking of just going to play another game. The terran race has been a problem since early beta, and blizzard obviously has no idea how to fix it. They've built in all of these mechanisms, like MULEs, that they can't remove, which completely break the game. You cannot give a mechanic to a race, which combined with their early game units, permits strong aggression, and then also give that same race the best defensive setup in the game. It's an obvious problem that I and a lot of other people saw coming months ago, and Blizzard has failed repeatedly to address the problem. Terran early game should be very very weak. It should be built around hiding behind and defending from the incredibly powerful defensive structures in the early game terran arsenal. lmao of course, cuz if you can't beat it then it's clearly overpowered and game breaking. notice how FruitDealer and Nestea won the first two GSLs. try improving your play instead of blaming the game mechanics. if nothing is going right for you, try mass speedling+baneling+infestor against a bio-ing terran, and roach infestor neural parasite play against mech. if that doesn't work for you, then try to do it better. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 12 2010 08:00 pwadoc wrote: Every zerg fast expands. Of course, when we do, and the constant terran marine pushes, fueled by MULEs overwhelm us, our opponents claim that it's because we fast expanded. It's broken, it has been broken, the ptr changes don't do anything to fix it, and it's sad that terrans won't even admit how broken it is. Don't be overly dramatic =/. It's a very powerful push and all-in, but it's not entirely unstoppable and fast expanding actually helps hold it off. If you're having trouble holding off particular forms of 2rax rushes/all-ins then maybe post it in the strategy section to people can help you. More generally though saving larva/cutting drones and using good micro + drone micro should let you handle the all-ins reasonably well. It's certainly very very difficult, but it's not something you should just be flat out losing to all the time. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
Otherwise, I'm hoping they add more changes to this patch. The phoenix change is uncalled for given how strong phoenix/collosus is. And really that's the only big change in the patch. | ||
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Ayabara
United States102 Posts
On December 12 2010 08:03 unbal3 wrote: lmao of course, cuz if you can't beat it then it's clearly overpowered and game breaking. notice how FruitDealer and Nestea won the first two GSLs. try improving your play instead of blaming the game mechanics. if nothing is going right for you, try mass speedling+baneling+infestor against a bio-ing terran, and roach infestor neural parasite play against mech. if that doesn't work for you, then try to do it better. Notice how both have been eliminated from GSL by mediocre terran pros that have refined 2rax into an imba, guaranteed-damage-against-any-zerg-opener BO. (FruidDealer in season 2, Nestea in season 3.) On December 12 2010 08:08 koppik wrote: Queens like double production and have 7-range anti-air. MULES and chronoboost don't hold a candle to that. It's much more direct for chronoboost, which boosts production by 50% (a little less since you can't continually use chrono). Really, Blizzard needs to put a more reasonable limit to the number of larvae a hatchery can have on it. 19 is way too much. (and 3.5 range roaches, plz) Otherwise, I'm hoping they add more changes to this patch. The phoenix change is uncalled for given how strong phoenix/collosus is. And really that's the only big change in the patch. You can not compare different races macro mechanics for the sake of balance. Different races are different. Zerg production is the way it is because zerg units are on average less effective per supply/cost, especially in 200/200 army situations. Repopulating the army isn't imba, its just how the race plays. And 4 range roaches haven't broken anything above mid-diamond, period. They have allowed for builds like 5RR and 7RR which allow unskilled zergs to get up the ladder quickly without actually improving, kinda like a 4-gate-lite. They also effectively shut down 4-gate and forge-expand in PvZ, hence all the low-level Protoss crying. What people really should be talking about is map imbalance. That is the single largest issue facing the game at competitive levels right now. Most of the maps are just flat-out terrible, so much so that they give certain match-ups insurmountable issues. When Metalopolis and Xel'Naga Caverns are the most balanced maps, something is wrong. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Metalopolis ... are the most balanced maps ROFL? Right position zerg need 2 creep tumors for low ground creep spread, and on this map there are some other differents between both positions | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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Ayabara
United States102 Posts
On December 12 2010 10:54 Existor wrote: ROFL? Right position zerg need 2 creep tumors for low ground creep spread, and on this map there are some other differents between both positions Yeah... its so imba for Z that hardly anyone ever veto's. And I didn't say it was balanced. I implied that it was less imbalanced, and that it was unfortunate that the "only kind of imbalanced" maps are the standard for balance. Map choice shouldn't give humongous advantages to certain races. At top levels it is, and not one single pro level player will say otherwise. Races should be balanced for maps with farther rush distances, more resource nodes, and more consistent geography. They simply can not not not not not not not not not NOT NOT balance the game around such a goddamn schizophrenic map pool. Sure, a drastic shift in the maps will bring out other imbalances in the game. But a solid, gimmick-free, consistent map pool will make balancing the game for tournament play possible. | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On December 12 2010 08:08 Logo wrote: Don't be overly dramatic =/. It's a very powerful push and all-in, but it's not entirely unstoppable and fast expanding actually helps hold it off. If you're having trouble holding off particular forms of 2rax rushes/all-ins then maybe post it in the strategy section to people can help you. More generally though saving larva/cutting drones and using good micro + drone micro should let you handle the all-ins reasonably well. It's certainly very very difficult, but it's not something you should just be flat out losing to all the time. The thing is, saving larva and cutting drones will set zerg back quite a bit, especially with the all powerful move of not actually attacking It's quite easy to 2rax into Expand while zerg is twiddling his thumbs cutting drones and building spine crawlers, at zero cost/risk to the terran. While I agree that there are ways to hold off marine/scv attacks, you can't dumb down the strategy as if it's a one dimensional cheese build. The ability to determine when the push comes, and how many SCVs to send is the true strength of the strategy, and unless zerg balances unit and worker production extremely well, they are quite easily screwed either right there or set so far back. So far as I can tell, it's almost impossible to determine the timing of the attacks even with full vision (eg. 4 gate attacks differ based on how many gas geysers are being harvested from. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On December 12 2010 06:16 donkkk wrote: when protoss or terran supply blocks/caps theres nothing they can do about it while zerg can just stack larvas, races are different u shouldnt compere larava to mule or chronoboost. wat? if a terran gets supply block/caped he can still pump mules for an ongoing economy because mules do not cost supply..... infact if terran looses everything except for 2 CCs he can instantly regain economy by spamming mules at an island or something were as any other race would be dead by default........ | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On December 12 2010 04:08 decaf wrote: Upgraded marines are vastly overpowered. They gain way too much from all the upgrades, it's insane. 3-3 marines with stim, health upgrade and medivacs to heal em are the best unit in the game and counter everything cost effectively. I think something needs to be fixed with them, let it be a mule, marine or medivac-heal nerf, but all-ins are way too good and require no skill to pull off. 3-3 marine all in huh? sounds pretty strong. | ||
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kmkg
Japan186 Posts
You know how long it takes to get 3-3 stim marines w medivacs? Might be able to get them just before late game off two bases but by then the hard counters are out and about on the field: hts/infestors/mass tanks. | ||
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