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Mech has been dead in this matchup since the tanks got nerfed and after the PTR the thor rush won't even be useful anymore.
I'm curious about something. For the last 5+ years in SC1, Mech was not the dominant strategy in TvP; it was the only strategy. Going M&M against Protoss was suicide. Reavers and High Templar make short work of anything that comes out of the Barracks, and there's not a damn thing a Terran can do about it.
I'm tired of Mech. I'm tired of Terrans building their damned Siege Tank walls, hiding behind fields of Spider Mines, and slowly cutting off the map. I'm glad that SC2 encourages a different, more dynamic style of TvP.
Also, TvP in SC1 was Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Carriers were a gimmick that worked on some maps, but then Flash taught the Terrans how to annihilate that. Since then it's Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game.
Is that really so different from MMM vs. Gateway units + Colossus/High Templar in SC2?
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On December 16 2010 04:33 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 02:40 HalfAmazing wrote:On December 16 2010 01:42 Markwerf wrote:... words of wisdom... I agree almost entirely with your post. Blizzard's emphasis on balancing cookie cutter vs cookie cutter is really starting to wear on my patience. This is most apparent in TvP in which we literally see only one of two scenarios unfold every game: terran wins early or terran dies late. Same unit compositions and build orders over and over again. It's a bore. Strategic diversity should be their #1 priority, and if certain units are overpowered then nerf them. The SCV repair nerf is clearly an attempt to fix the Thor/SCV rush against protoss, which admittedly was fucking stupid. However, it was not an issue with SCVs repairing banshees, tanks, hellions, vikings, ravens, etc, but that's being nerfed along with it. It's just such an overwhelmingly drastic measure that I seriously question the skill level of the people making these decisions. SCV repair nerf isn't just for Thor rush against Protoss, it also addresses the SCV/PF combo which many consider broken. If you want to bring your SCVs with your army for repair, then the SCVs should be vulnerable to attack. I don't see how that is an 'overwhelmingly drastic' change.
Incorrect. You clearly haven't played the PTR. The SCV repair change only affects UNITS. SCV's repairing forts are targeted exactly like they were before.
It's amusing how with the aid of SCV's repairing certain mech/air builds are slightly less shitty but still far, far from viable. Literally the only 'abuse' there is to speak of is the proxy factory thor rush, which is a ridiculous gamble. Let's just nerf all of that into the ground because some creative players weren't going bioball every game, lol.
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On December 16 2010 04:45 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Mech has been dead in this matchup since the tanks got nerfed and after the PTR the thor rush won't even be useful anymore. I'm curious about something. For the last 5+ years in SC1, Mech was not the dominant strategy in TvP; it was the only strategy. Going M&M against Protoss was suicide. Reavers and High Templar make short work of anything that comes out of the Barracks, and there's not a damn thing a Terran can do about it. I'm tired of Mech. I'm tired of Terrans building their damned Siege Tank walls, hiding behind fields of Spider Mines, and slowly cutting off the map. I'm glad that SC2 encourages a different, more dynamic style of TvP. Also, TvP in SC1 was Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Carriers were a gimmick that worked on some maps, but then Flash taught the Terrans how to annihilate that. Since then it's Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Is that really so different from MMM vs. Gateway units + Colossus/High Templar in SC2?
You fail to see the issue here. It's not that everything other than bio is suicide, it's that bio becomes hopelessly obsolete and terran has no chance of winning once khaydarin amulet has been researched. Clearly higher tiered mech or air units should be more effective against storm, but they aren't. Moreover, the difference in required skill between executing bio play correctly and abusing protoss late game mechanics is gigantic. Simply remaining competitive with a shitty protoss late game requires insane skill. Just because terran can win early doesn't mean the matchup isn't fucking retarded right now, and the new patch is only making things worse.TvP is just an ugly matchup and Blizzard is only making it shittier. 
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On December 16 2010 05:23 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 04:45 NicolBolas wrote:Mech has been dead in this matchup since the tanks got nerfed and after the PTR the thor rush won't even be useful anymore. I'm curious about something. For the last 5+ years in SC1, Mech was not the dominant strategy in TvP; it was the only strategy. Going M&M against Protoss was suicide. Reavers and High Templar make short work of anything that comes out of the Barracks, and there's not a damn thing a Terran can do about it. I'm tired of Mech. I'm tired of Terrans building their damned Siege Tank walls, hiding behind fields of Spider Mines, and slowly cutting off the map. I'm glad that SC2 encourages a different, more dynamic style of TvP. Also, TvP in SC1 was Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Carriers were a gimmick that worked on some maps, but then Flash taught the Terrans how to annihilate that. Since then it's Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Is that really so different from MMM vs. Gateway units + Colossus/High Templar in SC2? You fail to see the issue here. It's not that everything other than bio is suicide, it's that bio becomes hopelessly obsolete and terran has no chance of winning once khaydarin amulet has been researched. Clearly higher tiered mech or air units should be more effective against storm, but they aren't. Moreover, the difference in required skill between executing bio play correctly and abusing protoss late game mechanics is gigantic. Simply remaining competitive with a shitty protoss late game requires insane skill. Just because terran can win early doesn't mean the matchup isn't fucking retarded right now, and the new patch is only making things worse.TvP is just an ugly matchup and Blizzard is only making it shittier.
well said, the only match up i find complete atm is TvT lol
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You fail to see the issue here. It's not that everything other than bio is suicide, it's that bio becomes hopelessly obsolete and terran has no chance of winning once khaydarin amulet has been researched. Clearly higher tiered mech or air units should be more effective against storm, but they aren't. Moreover, the difference in required skill between executing bio play correctly and abusing protoss late game mechanics is gigantic. Simply remaining competitive with a shitty protoss late game requires insane skill. Just because terran can win early doesn't mean the matchup isn't fucking retarded right now, and the new patch is only making things worse.TvP is just an ugly matchup and Blizzard is only making it shittier.
To this i would suggest ghosts. There is the possiability that you are correct, but may i suggest this. In earlier versions terran were use to rolling toss over with M&M builds. Perhaps the appropriate counter measures are not known to most terrans at this point in time, wait for a metagame shift. Emp is pretty devastating considering that it does an average of 50% of the units total life plus all energy. Storm takes a long ass time to come about. perhaps scouting it in advance will give you time to get ghosts. It takes quite storms to take down a thor. People have been playing colossus for so long, counter builds are pretty easy. But if your waiting for the pros to crack counter builds to Templar tech be patient. Flamming imba isnt the way to go.
Thanks for the post, Adun
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Mech does kind've work, but you can't go straight mech like in sc1. I've been using a 2 rax fe into marine ghost tank quite well so far. Mass colossi can still devastate the build, but at least it doesn't auto lose when khaydarin amulet is researched.
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I find a hellion tank marauder + an air unit (depends on what they are building) is a good lategame army. Hellions are a better counter to high templars than ghosts.
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On December 16 2010 05:45 Liquid_Adun wrote:Show nested quote +You fail to see the issue here. It's not that everything other than bio is suicide, it's that bio becomes hopelessly obsolete and terran has no chance of winning once khaydarin amulet has been researched. Clearly higher tiered mech or air units should be more effective against storm, but they aren't. Moreover, the difference in required skill between executing bio play correctly and abusing protoss late game mechanics is gigantic. Simply remaining competitive with a shitty protoss late game requires insane skill. Just because terran can win early doesn't mean the matchup isn't fucking retarded right now, and the new patch is only making things worse.TvP is just an ugly matchup and Blizzard is only making it shittier. To this i would suggest ghosts. There is the possiability that you are correct, but may i suggest this. In earlier versions terran were use to rolling toss over with M&M builds. Perhaps the appropriate counter measures are not known to most terrans at this point in time, wait for a metagame shift. Emp is pretty devastating considering that it does an average of 50% of the units total life plus all energy. Storm takes a long ass time to come about. perhaps scouting it in advance will give you time to get ghosts. It takes quite storms to take down a thor. People have been playing colossus for so long, counter builds are pretty easy. But if your waiting for the pros to crack counter builds to Templar tech be patient. Flamming imba isnt the way to go. Thanks for the post, Adun
I'm not waiting for anyone to crack anything, I'm waiting for Blizzard to fix things with patches. Tired of banging my head against the wall trying different ways of approaching matchups and getting fucking nowhere because terran is useless late game.
This is tvp: make bio because every other build is non viable -> kill protoss before storm or lose. Its pure lunacy to suggest terran can beat protoss with mech, or air, or a combination of anything other than fucking straight up bio with some vikings/ghosts if necessary. Patience is absolutely not required here, in fact being patient is the worst thing you can do while Blizzard is making this game even shittier.
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it pains me to see hellions never used in late game. thats all i really have say. i think theres alot of potential for that unit late game in terms of how cheap, fast and efficient it is.
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Hellions seem pretty one dimensional in that they are used to attack the oppositions mineral line.
I believe it will take a while for people to fully realize how to use this unit.
It is obvious that hellions need to attack from the side to increase the odds of their attack hitting multiple units.
This requires the hellions being kept separate from the main army as well as map architecture that supports flank attacks.
As it stands now, open space is very rare and every unit bound to 1 hot key is very common.
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[QUOTE]
Updates
[quote]1) Bunker build time reduction removed as previously noted
2) Fungal Growth’s terrestrial limitation has been removed and the ability once again affects air units
3) It will once again be possible to hold down a key to repeat a hotkey command[/quote]
[url=http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875]http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1306100875[/url]
[quote]
[/QUOTE]
I am relieved!
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I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc..
Whether hydra need a buff or not is a worthy debate, but the argument that they are only featured in a single matchup is not one of them.
If a unit has a solid role in a least one of the 3 race matchups, then that unit is fine as far as I'm concerned. Not every unit has to be a staple of every matchup.
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This is tvp: make bio because every other build is non viable -> kill protoss before storm or lose. Its pure lunacy to suggest terran can beat protoss with mech, or air, or a combination of anything other than fucking straight up bio with some vikings/ghosts if necessary. Patience is absolutely not required here, in fact being patient is the worst thing you can do while Blizzard is making this game even shittier.
Nah thats your tvp, and by the sounds of it id be pissed too if i was losing because i wasnt playing the game efficiently. storm isnt very good unless you bunch up your units. Youve got to scout out where the templars are and then either pick them off or emp them. Why cant you add some tanks into the mix of your army? Protoss is the weakest tech switching race, build a banshee harass the probe line, keep him in his base. If your looking for sc1 mech you can always play sc1, its right there. Theres no need to flame me im trying to help out here. in all seriousness ghosts are the counter to hts, its whoever is better, if your better with emps then you can roll the toss army, if he gets you then your in trouble. You need a couple of tanks so he doesnt walk a solo templar in and storm you. make sure you, that is how noobs get owned.
I definately agree that hydralisks need a buff. As is they are only used in PvZ and maybe somewhat in ZvZ and only as a response to air or when you have alot of roaches and need a better arc..
Whether hydra need a buff or not is a worthy debate, but the argument that they are only featured in a single matchup is not one of them.
If a unit has a solid role in a least one of the 3 race matchups, then that unit is fine as far as I'm concerned. Not every unit has to be a staple of every matchup.
Can anyone say mother ship, how about carrier. at least zerg has no units that are never used. and dont worry, once the patch 1.2 comes out hydras will be in all match ups, i promise.
Hope this helps, Adun
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Adun maybe stop maphacking and get good before you start posting on teamliquid
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On December 16 2010 04:45 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Mech has been dead in this matchup since the tanks got nerfed and after the PTR the thor rush won't even be useful anymore. I'm curious about something. For the last 5+ years in SC1, Mech was not the dominant strategy in TvP; it was the only strategy. Going M&M against Protoss was suicide. Reavers and High Templar make short work of anything that comes out of the Barracks, and there's not a damn thing a Terran can do about it. I'm tired of Mech. I'm tired of Terrans building their damned Siege Tank walls, hiding behind fields of Spider Mines, and slowly cutting off the map. I'm glad that SC2 encourages a different, more dynamic style of TvP. Also, TvP in SC1 was Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Carriers were a gimmick that worked on some maps, but then Flash taught the Terrans how to annihilate that. Since then it's Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Is that really so different from MMM vs. Gateway units + Colossus/High Templar in SC2?
The difference is that in BW, the unit interactions are more micro intensive, dynamic, and generally interesting.
Imo, that is.
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BetterFasterStronger December 17 2010 03:06. Posts 125 PM Profile Quote #
Adun maybe stop maphacking and get good before you start posting on teamliquid
Ill take this as a compliment, sometimes my game sence is confused with map hack.
Thanks for the compliment, Adun
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On December 17 2010 03:07 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 04:45 NicolBolas wrote:Mech has been dead in this matchup since the tanks got nerfed and after the PTR the thor rush won't even be useful anymore. I'm curious about something. For the last 5+ years in SC1, Mech was not the dominant strategy in TvP; it was the only strategy. Going M&M against Protoss was suicide. Reavers and High Templar make short work of anything that comes out of the Barracks, and there's not a damn thing a Terran can do about it. I'm tired of Mech. I'm tired of Terrans building their damned Siege Tank walls, hiding behind fields of Spider Mines, and slowly cutting off the map. I'm glad that SC2 encourages a different, more dynamic style of TvP. Also, TvP in SC1 was Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Carriers were a gimmick that worked on some maps, but then Flash taught the Terrans how to annihilate that. Since then it's Mech vs. Gateway units + Reaver/High Templar, ending with a little Arbiter action in the late game. Is that really so different from MMM vs. Gateway units + Colossus/High Templar in SC2? The difference is that in BW, the unit interactions are more micro intensive, dynamic, and generally interesting. Imo, that is.
During a mech push in broodwar the terran had to constantly make positional decisions that could win or cost them the game. Also overlooked is how fast teching to mech has a potential to leave some early game holes in the terran's defenses since it's essentially a "bare minimum" type of strategy before the macro kicks in. That's where you get exciting and tense situations like the bulldog strategy in broodwar. I miss mech, bio vs protoss is lame. I knew this would hurt the game ever since they introduced the immortal, and arguably the hellion.
Mech play made picking terran feel like you're playing a completely different game from zerg and protoss. Now it just feels like another blob.
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I just installed a patch but I could only read so far as the Void Ray buffs. wtf just happened!
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I just installed a patch but I could only read so far as the Void Ray buffs. wtf just happened!
They got a buff vs one thing but also got a nerf in another department, flux veins is gone. But now they have 20% more damage vs huge units, thor, bc, colossus, carrier, ultra. To me as a protoss it seems more like a nerf then a buff. What it did was make void rays more specialized. by trying to change the PvP match up. Void rays being the counter to colossus. VR is now permanently slow.
Hope this helps defuse the situation, Adun
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8751 Posts
On December 16 2010 10:32 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 05:45 Liquid_Adun wrote:You fail to see the issue here. It's not that everything other than bio is suicide, it's that bio becomes hopelessly obsolete and terran has no chance of winning once khaydarin amulet has been researched. Clearly higher tiered mech or air units should be more effective against storm, but they aren't. Moreover, the difference in required skill between executing bio play correctly and abusing protoss late game mechanics is gigantic. Simply remaining competitive with a shitty protoss late game requires insane skill. Just because terran can win early doesn't mean the matchup isn't fucking retarded right now, and the new patch is only making things worse.TvP is just an ugly matchup and Blizzard is only making it shittier. To this i would suggest ghosts. There is the possiability that you are correct, but may i suggest this. In earlier versions terran were use to rolling toss over with M&M builds. Perhaps the appropriate counter measures are not known to most terrans at this point in time, wait for a metagame shift. Emp is pretty devastating considering that it does an average of 50% of the units total life plus all energy. Storm takes a long ass time to come about. perhaps scouting it in advance will give you time to get ghosts. It takes quite storms to take down a thor. People have been playing colossus for so long, counter builds are pretty easy. But if your waiting for the pros to crack counter builds to Templar tech be patient. Flamming imba isnt the way to go. Thanks for the post, Adun I'm not waiting for anyone to crack anything, I'm waiting for Blizzard to fix things with patches. Tired of banging my head against the wall trying different ways of approaching matchups and getting fucking nowhere because terran is useless late game. This is tvp: make bio because every other build is non viable -> kill protoss before storm or lose. Its pure lunacy to suggest terran can beat protoss with mech, or air, or a combination of anything other than fucking straight up bio with some vikings/ghosts if necessary. Patience is absolutely not required here, in fact being patient is the worst thing you can do while Blizzard is making this game even shittier.
Dunno what games/RTS's you came from before SC, but most of the changes in SC happen from player innovation, not from Blizzard changing the rules. If you don't like player creativity and ability solving problems rather than having the rules artificially changed, then perhaps SC isn't the game for you.
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