EPTTerrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling - Page 2
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
Back to the article, I must agree that Terran does indeed carry a very high skill ceiling. It was not always that I thought this, especially during the early days of SC2 beta where tanks ruled the ground and MMM balls were rampant. It always felt like A-attack Move was the trademark of the Terran during this era. However, now they must use drop harass, marine split, tank siege, hellion harass, clutch scans, etc just to keep up with a Zerg. Lategame Zerg vs Terran is atrocious. Even a diamond Z such as myself find it too easy to deny the 3rd and roll everything with bling/muta. I commend Terran players! | ||
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PurpleCrack
Norway12 Posts
Infact yes you will see mass drones being sent out mid-game to make a spinecrawler push. The overseer will be used in drastically new ways to slow down a build once the game get's more refined with it's builds. Fast cliff drop with creep and spines may become popular in the future... Maybe some figure out a way to use corruptors and their 20% additional damage spell cost efficiently... There is a lot of potential with neural parasite, hell I can neural a probe, make a mothership and kill you with cloaked ultras and broodlords... Nydus hasn't been used to it's full potential yet either... Queen's will probably be used as medics, hell they only cost 150 minerals and with creep they aren't too slow. Not to mention creep spread in it self, you can deny buildings, increase speed of all your units, which makes any zerg unit very different... When people get better and better with burrowed banelings suddenly terran and protoss will be forced to use detection like BW lurker days... etc. etc. etc. Sure there is a lot of versatility with terran, but I'm not convinced it got the highest skill ceiling at all. I'm no protoss player so someone else should probably go a little more indepth on this, but the mothership hasn't shown it's true potential yet, neither has warp prism, hightemplars or even carriers... I doubt that it's only terran that can be evolved further in the next 6 months... However I truely hope that the expansions will bring some truely game changing units for all races... | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Terran was always meant to be a Modular race. Their add-ons can even switch with each other, which is kind of a perfect metaphor for what you're trying to describe. And I would like to point that a forward Nexus could be a potential benefit as it could allow you to Proxy Mothership. Sounds crazy, but who knows what's in store for the future? | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
Anyway, OT the reason Command Centers have mules is so Terran can continue to macro late game since they can't keep up with either the Protoss or Zerg. When it comes to Supply Depots, let's think about it: Overlords can fly anywhere on the map (and therefore don't obscure building placement with the added bonus of being able to be defended) and Pylons can warp in units for easy protection...supply depots have no abilities other than burrow. If they couldn't burrow, then they'd have to be spread out all over the map and could easily be picked off with the addition disadvantaged of being in the way of everything. Honestly it just sounds like you are posting a Terran is Imba rant, and I'm just not seeing how supply depots being able to burrow breaks the game. | ||
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.Aar
2177 Posts
I know it's annoying when people stick in ideas and such when nobody asked, but.. ..what if Chronoboost worked on units, basically like stim? or reducing cooldowns / speeding energy regen? I would also like to see a minor change to creep, although what, I have no idea. Not the standard "increase regen," general buff crap, but.. I don't know. Just something. On November 29 2010 14:46 Musiq wrote: Overlords with creep is an amazing idea, coming from a BW Terran player, the ability to proxy key buildings such as a Spire is a great deceptive tool. Cool in theory, but I don't think I've actually seen a Zerg doing that yet. At least not in the GSL. | ||
Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
Also, protoss has no easy options for map control? Isn't the observer the classic answer here? Saying OLs generating creep is inefficient is just foolish too, spreading creep at a third is huge in zvt zvp, and once you get OL speed using it around the map is good, especially in a few months when people become more aggressive with stopping creep tumours, having a hotkeyed group of overlords and cloning them (bw style) to spread creep down a path is a pretty leet move. Also completely free with OL speed which is only 100/100 and most z will want regardless in any game over moderate length. Also I think you're kinda pressing on the connection between gimmicky features and a high skill ceiling. Just zerg economy and the larva mechanic isn't gimmicky and cool like salvaging bunkers but really benefits those who are close to the skill ceiling. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On November 29 2010 14:23 ForPony wrote: You suggest an interesting question: maybe Blizzard would do well to take protoss and zerg back to their fundamentals and come back with some groundbreaking changes. Is such an overhaul likely? That would be a major second-guess by a game designer. No other game comes to mind where the developer has been willing to retool the core gameplay so heavily with an expansion. I think, however, that it is entirely plausible. Expanding the game in the way you've mentioned could make SC 2 one of the deepest most unbelievable multiplayer games to date. If there's one company that cares about its product and community enough to do something like that, it's Blizzard. And if there's one company that is willing to mess with their game developers for the sake of short-term profit, it's Activision We all know that zerg requires much more skill than terran. This idea of skill ceiling is kinda stupid seeing as how the game is continuing to evolve. We see changes in the metagame all the time in pro levels. As time goes on, more skill will be required (not in apm sense). Maybe when this game reaches a point where it can no longer evolve, then a skill ceiling will exist, but that will be later in the future, and only if the games stops evolving. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
The defense is always that these tactics from zerg and protoss "aren't viable". Warp prisms aren't viable. Nydus networks aren't viable. etc etc. Terrans have had this same problem but have somehow found a way to make it work. Here is my theory on why this is the case: Zerg and protoss have both "standardized" a little bit. When I say this, I don't mean they've been totally figured out, I just mean that as the metagame has progressed, there are pretty normal strategies you see from both these races. Zerg almost always does x and maybe y, protoss almost always does x and maybe y. X and Y change as time goes on, but there are usually only 1 or 2 strategies that are used. This doesn't seem to be the case with Terran. As time goes on and X and Y change, Terran is forced to use things that used to "not be viable" to counter X and Y from both races. Terran is therefore forced to explore the race at a faster rate. Take this with a grain of salt as I am not a starcraft 2 expert, and this is strictly based on feeling and watching an absolute shit-ton of pro-level games. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Are you playing a semantics game, or is that really some valid strat I've somehow never run across before? I'm not ruling that possibility out... but I will still say that the Terran is given an arbitrary advantage in that his mining time would not be reduced by 1 second by the same placement of a Depot. On November 29 2010 14:39 alexanderzero wrote: I find this statement a little bit unjustified. If the history of both Brood War and SC2 is any indication, even the simplest of mechanics may hold juicy secrets to be discovered in the future. Fair enough. It is possible that some sort of Creep Generate + Spine Crawler strat will come up at some point, a Zerg equivalent of the offensive Reaper Bunker. Or something. But I'm a little concerned that the... tools the Zerg players have to come up with such creative strategies are unfairly limited and limiting. Energy tension isn't enough to create depth in abilities that have only a straight-forward use. I'm actually kind of confused about this statement. Could you explain it another way?[/QUOTE] Supply Calldown is an example of an ability with "straight-forward" use. It does not provide any auxiliary benefits that could possibly be taken advantage of in creative ways. The fact that it creates energy tension with MULE (even if that were 100% true 100% of the time) wouldn't change the fact that the ability itself is entirely shallow. No one will ever surprise you with their creative use of Supply Calldown. It does give the player options, which is good, but options should where possible have depth. Now this isn't too much of a problem for the Terran, but for your Zerg who's choosing between Creep Tumor and Spawn Larvae -- sure, there's valid energy tension, but the abilities are too limiting, they don't give the player any room to maneuver in realizing new creative ways of using them. That's why the Queen, while standing up for the "options" part of my complaint, doesn't really do anything for the versatility of skills. It doesn't create any brand new synergies that didn't exist before, it doesn't take advantage of synergies that already did. Unlike, say, MULEs which have the potential to be used in a variety of ways, not all of them intended, Spawn Larvae can only be used in one way. Always. On November 29 2010 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I don't see the connection; Highest skill ceiling because they are the most dynamic? What? Skill ceiling could be argued for any race; Baneling drop/Mutas and mutas are fairly micro based, as well as zerg having some ranged step move units ie roach, making ground banelings hit groups of more than 3 marines etc A similar arguement could be made for toss, and flanking being good is almost universal, all races benefit from a flank The number of tactics available is higher because they have more stuff, that has no bearing on the skill ceiling though.. I had a bit of an unorthodox definition for 'skill ceiling' in this thread and I tried to explain that in paragraph 2 or 3. Basically, I'm talking about skills and mechanics that are so unrestricting that they will allow the RACE (not individual players) to evolve continuously over the course of SC2's life. Wildly new applications of these spells and mechanics will (and have) come up, unlike how they were used previously, over time. I am concerned that Terrans have much more potential to grow in this way than Zerg or Protoss. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On November 29 2010 14:53 frodoguy wrote: And if there's one company that is willing to mess with their game developers for the sake of short-term profit, it's Activision We all know that zerg requires much more skill than terran. This idea of skill ceiling is kinda stupid seeing as how the game is continuing to evolve. We see changes in the metagame all the time in pro levels. As time goes on, more skill will be required (not in apm sense). Maybe when this game reaches a point where it can no longer evolve, then a skill ceiling will exist, but that will be later in the future, and only if the games stops evolving. They are business partners, they don't make games together, Activision didn't even publish Starcraft II. They had no part in making it. I respect your attempt at humor though ^_^ | ||
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atuor
United States83 Posts
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Vanity
United States28 Posts
Yes they can, [image loading] | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
Your mining time would be reduced with that pylon placement. @OP, I agree with your post. Terran's abilities seem a little more developed and synergetic than the other races. Repair as an ability, seems like a pretty big advantage as an OPTION rather than zerg's heal or protoss' shield, which reduces their fluidity. | ||
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Galaxy77
Hong Kong256 Posts
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
A race being overdeveloped, relatively, isn't an argument for them having the highest skill ceiling. | ||
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PurpleCrack
Norway12 Posts
@OP, I agree with your post. Terran's abilities seem a little more developed and synergetic than the other races. Repair as an ability, seems like a pretty big advantage as an OPTION rather than zerg's heal or protoss' shield, which reduces their fluidity. Repair cost money and mining time, how is that different from creating a additional queen that can spread creep ( which is like a SUPER speed upgrade ) plus it can attack quite well and heal for only 150 minerals? Using that additional queen to heal almost dead units INSTANTLY seems more "fluid" than repairing which costs minerals and take time... | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Yeah, terran are meant to be versatile by design. No,the 3 races are not supposed to have counterparts for other races units. Yes, the Terran Macro Mechanics are versatile, but that also makes them weaker in late game. A Terran can´t speed up production if they are in a pinch(Protoss with chronoboost), a Terran can´t stockpile buildings so that he can pump out the unit he needs in great numbers unless they pay a lot of money to do so. All races are different, protoss and Zerg have good units and they are different. One thing I love about StarCraft is the variety. Both P and Z can have creative building placement. I think you are assuming too much, you basically say that Terran gameplay will evolve and evolve while Z and P will keep stale. Don´t underestimate the other races, yeah Terran gameplay has evolved a lot. There are still a lot of underused units in all matchups.Both warp ins and creep tumors have been used in somewhat creative ways. Sorry if I come off somewhat rough or rude, but I am really tired of people just assuming a lot of stuff about how this game will evolve. I still have memory of some TL posters saying that Z was a broken race, that literally there was no way to fix it that Blizzard had somewhat screwed up the race and that they needed to go back to the drawing board. Look now, Zerg are doing pretty fine, in fact they are doing so fine that people are now calling Z OP(Just to be clear I don´t think that). There is no way to know how the game will evolve. I´d say that even without expansions WoL has a lot of potential to growth for every race | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
Terrans easily got the most new toys to play with. Free(ish) bunkers, OC, flying medics that can drop units, super streamlined tech path, fog of war maphack. Protoss and Zerg got better things, Terran got new things. I think that's what it boils down to. If you compared the differences between SC1 and SC2, you'll find Terran got a ton new toys to play on top of major improvements with while Toss/Zerg got 1 or 2 new things to play with. Toss, especially, got the short stick. For instance, cannons are unchanged from BW, while bunkers are refundable and spines/spores can move around, essentially making them much more valuable. The creative juices started and ended with Terran it seems like. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 29 2010 14:49 PurpleCrack wrote:The overseer will be used in drastically new ways to slow down a build once the game get's more refined with it's builds. Fast cliff drop with creep and spines may become popular in the future... Maybe some figure out a way to use corruptors and their 20% additional damage spell cost efficiently... There is a lot of potential with neural parasite, hell I can neural a probe, make a mothership and kill you with cloaked ultras and broodlords... Nydus hasn't been used to it's full potential yet either... Queen's will probably be used as medics, hell they only cost 150 minerals and with creep they aren't too slow. Not to mention creep spread in it self, you can deny buildings, increase speed of all your units, which makes any zerg unit very different... When people get better and better with burrowed banelings suddenly terran and protoss will be forced to use detection like BW lurker days... etc. etc. etc. Sure there is a lot of versatility with terran, but I'm not convinced it got the highest skill ceiling at all. I'm no protoss player so someone else should probably go a little more indepth on this, but the mothership hasn't shown it's true potential yet, neither has warp prism, hightemplars or even carriers... I doubt that it's only terran that can be evolved further in the next 6 months... However I truely hope that the expansions will bring some truely game changing units for all races... A lot of the things you described are -- while possible -- not quite what I'm getting at. I mentioned right at the beginning that I was going to avoid unit micro altogether and there was a reason for that. Sure, there might be Overseer tricks left to discover, but there might also be Raven tricks left to discover, or Ghost tricks. My point isn't to compare tactics on units, which seem (for the moment) to be endless for all races, but tactics of mechanics, which are in some cases quite end...ful.  On November 29 2010 14:51 mastergriggy wrote: I stopped reading after you said creep tumors haven't changed since day 1...no just no. If you watch any game at the beginning of the beta, you realized that creep spreading wasn't big on player's to do list. Now it's a given. That players chose to ignore an ability's explicit purpose does not change the fact that ... that was the ability's explicit purpose. Blizzard put Creep Tumors into the game to do what they're doing now; it's simply taken players that long to catch up. They did NOT put Thors into the game to be surrounded by 50 SCVs and repaired, which is obvious given the amount of new tactics that have come up for the unit over the last few months despite how long it's been in internal testing... and Blizzard's latest stance on the unit. (I believe David Kim mentioned the possibility of increasing priority of repairing SCVs, or reducing the Thor's unit size.) If they'd meant for this from the start, wouldn't they have been prepared for it seeing as how they'd have been doing it all along? Honestly it just sounds like you are posting a Terran is Imba rant, and I'm just not seeing how supply depots being able to burrow breaks the game. Should have read to the end. I'm not complaining about what Terrans have, I'm complaining about what the other races don't. I genuinely hope they're going to catch up.  | ||
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