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Terrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling

Forum Index > SC2 General
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pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 04:46:27
November 29 2010 05:06 GMT
#1
[image loading]
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And, even speaking as a Terran, this isn’t a good thing. The reasons are plenty, but two that I won’t be getting into deliberately are micro and macro. Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race and that Zerg is the most macro-intensive, but you try telling Foxer that he doesn’t need to worry about macro in his TvZ, or white-Ra that he doesn’t need excellent micro in his Phoenix/Void-Ray play in PvZ, or any lategame Zerg that he doesn’t need good micro to flank and engage the Terran bioball. It just doesn’t work that way, the game is too flexible and these factors are too debateable, so I’m going to leave units, their production, and their control completely out of this equation. I’m only going to talk about factors that are objective, set-in-stone and, in my opinion, not open to debate. I’m going to talk about racial design (intentional and not) and synergy (intentional and not), and how these create a disparity in the skill-caps between the races.

First, what does that even mean? I’m not saying that Terran players are better, or that the Terran race takes more skill to play. I’m saying that over the course of SC2’s meta-game, if nothing at all is patched from this point onward, Terran gameplay is going to change the most radically, especially in subtle ways, and that comparing Terran play now to the Beta, it already has. And if you're about to inform me on the unorthodoxy of my definition for 'skill ceiling,' save yourself the trouble. That's both known and entirely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.


DESIGN

Remember how Supply Depots in SC2 were designed from the ground-up to allow Terrans to wall-in easier (a convenience that wasn’t paralleled for either Zerg or Protoss)? And for a long time, that’s exactly what Terran players did. But watch any recent TvZ or TvP, and a good half of the time that Depot won’t be anywhere near the wall. What changed? Well, for one thing, Terrans realized that a Depot was too weak to repel a Baneling Bust and created an opening for the enemy to exploit. But that doesn’t tell you where to place the Depot, only where not to place it. So why is it that almost every Terran will place his first Depots around – or under – his mineral line, especially in TvT? The short answer is: because he can.

[image loading]
Obligatory visual aids included.


The long answer is that the Depot has the uncanny ability to submerge under the ground, where it takes up no space, and can therefore be hidden next to very well protected areas so that it doesn’t get destroyed by Banelings, Mutalisks, Void Rays, or Banshees. As soon as Terrans realized that their Depots were a liability, they wondered, “How do we remedy that?” And the tools to do this were already built into the game, perfectly at their disposal. This doesn’t mean that sniping Depots is now impossible and that Terrans are imbalanced. All it means is that they had an unorthodox tool at their disposal, and when the time came, they found a way to take advantage of it. The moral of the story is: having unorthodox, arbitrary tools at a race’s disposal is a very, very good thing for fostering fresh and creative play. I genuinely wonder how the submerge functionality will be taken advantage of one year from now… two years, three years.

The problem is Terrans have a disproportionate amount of unorthodox features at their disposal. Some are subtle. Take the Command Center, which could, as early as SC1, lift off. But apparently that wasn’t enough. Now it can also load and unload workers to protect and/or transport them. Now it can upgrade into a spellcaster with a number of versatile abilities, or a powerful stationary defense. The tactics opened up by the CC’s weirdness and the weirdness of its progeny alone is staggering. Not only are early expansions to islands possible in SC1, with the 5 workers maynard they are in many cases even a good idea (Kulas Ravine). You can use your expanding CC as an emergency wall and simply relocate it at your convenience. And of course you can keep your CC alive against many, many units just by lifting it into the air. (Never mind all the sacrificial Engineering Bays and Barrackses over the years, a role the CC would naturally fulfill if other structures could not.) And we haven’t even gotten to the OC or the PF: who’d have imagined on Day 1 of Beta that MULEs would be dropped on Lost Temple ledges to keep Thors alive, or that Planetary Fortresses would be commonly built for late-game area denial when supplies are capped but resources are plenty? A Planetary Fortress is a powerful defensive tool… only thing is, combined with the Command Center’s ability to fly and its ability to carry SCVs, it can even be used offensively in the early game.

[image loading]


These last few are obviously unintentional, but they’re there just the same. Contrast and compare with Creep Tumors, the use of which hasn’t changed in any way since Day 1. Sure, people use them more, but they don’t use them differently, because there’s no way to use these things differently. Their function is clear-cut. So why is it that a MULE, also with a seemingly clear-cut function, can be used differently? Synergy, and all I’ll get to that in a minute.

Back to design: Command Centers, Orbital Commands, and Planetary Fortresses are still not all the Terrans have. Bunkers now have the arbitrary Salvage ability, which, combined with Reapers, made them for a time an incredibly powerful offensive tool, and gives them added functionality all over the place. Just cuz. Sensor Towers are entirely superfluous structures – Zerg might have easy map vision through Creep Tumors, but Protoss still have nothing. Why is that? Did Blizzard decide that Stalkers are just too friggin’ good at fighting back Mutalisk harass compared to Thors? Sensor Towers may not add so much to the skill cap, but they do add arbitrarily to the number of options available to a Terran player in-game, and each of those options has its own skill ceiling.
It’s not that Protoss and Zerg have no options outside of regular unit selection (which Terran shares); Pylon placement for Warp-in is an interesting addition. Creep Tumor placement is an interesting addition. So are Nydus Worms. The problems are that 1) there aren’t enough parallel mechanics for the other races, and 2) those mechanics simply aren’t deep enough; they don’t reward creative use. And that brings us to the next point.


SYNERGY

Whether it’s by accident or deliberately, the Terran race has by far the most synergy. The synergy exists between units, it exists between buildings, and in many cases even between units and buildings. Marines and Medivacs aren’t simply good together in the sense that Sentries and Colossi are good together. They’re designed from the ground-up to complement one another, like Fungal Growth and Banelings. The divide between ‘infantry’ and ‘mechanical’ units is not merely there (so is the divide between Psionic and non-Psionic units for the Protoss), it is absolutely pervasive, and Terran mechanics are built completely around it. Only infantry units can enter Bunkers; only infantry units are healed by Medivacs. Only structures burn down; only mechanical units (and structures) cannot replenish life without cost. And that last is key, because it brings us to Repair.

The 8-minute Thor rush (or its faster variants) wouldn’t be possible without repair. Planetary Fortresses would be nearly useless without repair. Wall-Ins would be too dangerous without repair. Getting Battlecruisers would be even riskier if you weren’t able to keep the first one or two alive with mass SCVs before you reached critical mass. This might not have been what Blizzard had in mind when they came up with Repair back in 1998, but now it is a central part of the race, and the beauty of it is how naturally it flows from instance to instance. When you bring SCVs to repair a Thor on LT ledge overlooking Zerg natural, that same SCV can be used to build a forward Bunker, that same SCV can be used to build a Missile Turret to keep the Thor safe from unclumped, microed Mutas, that same SCV can repair the Medivac that’s getting hit by Queens while it gives your Siege Tank (if you went Tank instead of Thor) vision. When a Terran leapfrogs across the map with sieged tanks, the same SCVs that are keeping his mech army alive are constructing Missile Turrets and Sensor Towers to contain his opponent.

Why does this matter? Because a Queen managed to take out the Medivac, the Thor is in danger, and suddenly you drop down two MULEs on the ledge to keep the Thor alive. Because MULEs can repair, too. They’re SCVs that can be where you need them, when you need them. Sure, there’s a price tag attached, but whether or not it’s worth it is your call to make. At least you have that option. Even if the design behind MULEs wasn’t deliberately in support of this tactic, the fact that it has more abilities than it “needed” (it didn’t need Repair to do what it was made for, which is mining) allowed players to get creative.

[image loading]


That’s what this is all about. Options. A year from now, you won’t see Chrono Boost being used in new and inventive ways, because there simply are no other ways than “speeding up production” to use it. Choosing what to speed up, when to conserve and when to spend, may be good tactical choices… but the ability is shallow, because it creates no synergy between other abilities. You’re not going to see Nexuses placed in strange positions six months from now, because there’s no benefit to be gleaned from it, there never could be. You’re not going to see Drones suddenly sent out with mid-game armies, because there is no potential use for them. They have no ability to interact with other units and structures of their race, nothing new to be discovered and perfected. Unlike the Command Center/SCV/Planetary Fortress relationship, which is entirely symbiotic and dynamic, the Nexus has absolutely no relation to anything else. Warp-In and Creep Tumors were undeniably good moves by Blizzard and both add depth to their respective races – but for every step taken by Protoss and Zerg in the development of this game, the Terrans were taking five.

CONCLUSIONS

The question remains “why?” Why do Terrans get a building that can fly, take in SCVs, and cast 3 different versatile spells, all at the same time? And why does that come as an alternative to a different, equally versatile upgrade? Where are the parallels for the other races? Sure, they have unit micro and timings to discover and perfect, but so do Terrans. All of the things I mentioned here are on top of the timings and knowledge the other races have to pick up. “Terrans are defensive” isn’t enough, because the abilities and upgrades they get have, as it turns out, far more than merely defensive applications, because of the synergies already in place.

Blizzard needs to change their approach to designing the races come Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void. Adding two units may be perfectly enough for Terrans, but if they want Protoss and Zerg gameplay to keep from getting stale – not just unit tactics, but racial tactics – they’re going to have to go back all the way to the fundamentals. Give players reasons to get creative with their building placement. Give them access to versatile spells for the sake of giving them access to versatile spells that will be used in unpredictable new ways. Create new relationships between units. The Overlord spreading creep may have been an attempt to do just that, but it isn’t enough. It isn't enough because using Overlords to spread Creep is inefficient, and it isn't enough because Creep itself is entirely predictable. Its uses don't change based on whether you cast it on a mineral patch or on a Siege Tank or on a lonely structure whose HP is in the red. It always, always makes your units faster. It isn't bad -- but it is shallow. The potential to take advantage of the races' differences is obviously there. But the depth isn't. Not yet.


Edit: The question of racial identity came up (from -(Cake)-), which I think prompted a rather constructive response:

--It's interesting that Cake brings up the racial divide: quantity, quality, and versatility. That's true of the units, right? You get two Zerglings, you get a tough Zealot, or you get a ranged Marine. Quantity, quality, versatility. Except what happens when we bring the buildings into the discussion? Terran buildings support the theme of versatility 100%, but do Zerg ones support the theme of quantity? Sure, through Creep Tumors, but that's a very small example. Do Protoss buildings support the theme of quality?

If you want to carry the racial themes into racial mechanics... you have to make sure you do it for all races. And if you can't do that, then at least put them on even ground in versatility, because racially-appropriate or not it's at least dynamic and keeps the match-up fresh. Right now, Protoss and Zerg bases are just "there," they're not contributing to the game at all, really, in the way that Add-ons or all these spiffy Terran mechanics are.

INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Loser777
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
1931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:20:04
November 29 2010 05:18 GMT
#2
If you're not walling off, placing the depot next to the mineral line is the most efficient use of resources, as SCVs can return to mining immediately after --there's a reason for that, it's not "because they can".

A lot of the points you're making are common sense to Brood War players and while I'm on the subject of Brood War, if you want a real management game, try playing SK Terran in Brood War.
6581
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
November 29 2010 05:20 GMT
#3
On November 29 2010 14:18 Loser777 wrote:
If you're not walling off, placing the depot next to the mineral line is the most efficient use of resources, as SCVs can return to mining immediately after --there's a reason for that, it's not "because they can".


Try as they might, Protoss can't place their Pylon in the middle of their mineral line, although that would be just as resource efficient.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
A.J.
Profile Joined August 2010
United States209 Posts
November 29 2010 05:20 GMT
#4
Nice post.

I have to agree, Terran seems like a dynamic race.

It changes a lot.
Take a chance
imyzhang
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada809 Posts
November 29 2010 05:21 GMT
#5
’m saying that over the course of SC2’s meta-game, if nothing at all is patched from this point onward, Terran gameplay is going to change the most radically, especially in subtle ways, and that comparing Terran play now to the Beta, it already has.

stopped reading there. what's with newcomers and hypothetical situations on TL? =[

User was warned for this post
bleh
alexanderzero
Profile Joined June 2008
United States659 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:28:40
November 29 2010 05:21 GMT
#6
I take issue with the statement that creep is spread the same way every game. This is definitely not the case. In the early-mid game the Zerg has to choose where they put creep because they can't put it everywhere (until the late game).

Do they make a highway to their opponents base for an attack? Do they attempt to connect all their expansions for easy defense? Do they spread it out widely around where they fear an attack, thus enabling them to get an easy defensive flank? Also, overlords drop creep to delay enemy expansions, but only if it is safe to have them roaming the map.

It's not entirely inefficient for overlords to spread creep for other reasons. Idra used overlord creep spread against his opponent in an extremely effective way in his RO64 match in the GSL 3.

On the issue of the command center: The Zerg queen is almost comparable in versatility. Three spells that can be casted, and in the early game especially it's a pretty big decision how you use their energy. It may remain a big decision in the late game if players become good enough to spend all of the energy while engaged in other tasks as well.

EDIT: I also just realized that Zerg have quite a versatile building as well: The Spine/Spore Crawler. It's the only tower that you can move.
I am a tournament organizazer.
ForPony
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada7 Posts
November 29 2010 05:23 GMT
#7
You suggest an interesting question: maybe Blizzard would do well to take protoss and zerg back to their fundamentals and come back with some groundbreaking changes. Is such an overhaul likely? That would be a major second-guess by a game designer. No other game comes to mind where the developer has been willing to retool the core gameplay so heavily with an expansion.

I think, however, that it is entirely plausible. Expanding the game in the way you've mentioned could make SC 2 one of the deepest most unbelievable multiplayer games to date.

If there's one company that cares about its product and community enough to do something like that, it's Blizzard.
-{Cake}-
Profile Joined October 2010
United States217 Posts
November 29 2010 05:25 GMT
#8
Well obviously you put in a lot of time/effort on this,
Traditionally, zerg is about quantity, toss is about quality, and terran is about versatility

Terran's options are part of racial identity. I think skill ceiling is the wrong phrase here, It doesn't really matter what race has the highest skill cap because even the top pros are probably not going to reach it

So what i got from this is that you are saying terran has more options than the other races, solid point, arguable a issue with the game, but could have been said in much less time/words
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
November 29 2010 05:29 GMT
#9
At least you have that option.


This is basically the premise of your entire post. I agree, terran benefits the most out of fast hands and a clear brain.

it does not make it a better race and blizzard does not need to change their approach to either factions.

Zerg will always be obvious and pure with very few predictable tricks up their sleves its still fun to play.
"Mudkip"
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
November 29 2010 05:29 GMT
#10
On November 29 2010 14:21 alexanderzero wrote:
I take issue with the statement that creep is spread the same way every game. This is definitely not the case. In the early-mid game the Zerg has to choose where they put creep because they can't put it everywhere (until the late game).

Do they make a highway to their opponents base for an attack? Do they attempt to connect all their expansions for easy defense? Do they spread it out widely around where they fear an attack, thus enabling them to get an easy defensive flank? Also, overlords drop creep to delay enemy expansions, but only if it is safe to have them roaming the map.

It's not entirely inefficient for overlords to spread creep for other reasons. Idra used overlord creep spread against his opponent in an extremely effective way in his RO64 match in the GSL 3.


I didn't mean to imply that Zerg Creep is used in the same way from game to game. What I meant to imply is that it has already been used in every way it can be used. There are many, many tricks to learn in mastering Creep spread, but all of them are already at players' disposal. Those tricks aren't going to change in six months' time.

On the issue of the command center: The Zerg queen is almost comparable in versatility. Three spells that can be casted, and in the early game especially it's a pretty big decision how you use their energy. It may remain a big decision in the late game if players become good enough to spend all of the energy while engaged in other tasks as well.


If you'll note, I actually didn't make a single reference to Scan or to Calldown Supplies, although both abilities obviously serve their functions (Scan moreso), and there's plenty of tension especially in the midgame before minerals become TOO common. Energy tension isn't enough to create depth in abilities that have only a straight-forward use. Actually, I would say that surprisingly enough Transfusion turned out to be the most unpredictable ability, as it allowed for some very curious mass-Queen play that obviously wasn't forseen by Blizzard.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
LordofAscension
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States589 Posts
November 29 2010 05:30 GMT
#11
Awesome post. I'm very interested in seeing where this discussion will go.

~LoA
~WelCoMe tO My rEaLm SC:L - sclegacy.com
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
November 29 2010 05:34 GMT
#12
good read. i agree that terran has some major synergy advantages but it could be argued that zerg has just as many skill based design features as terran. overlords, overseers, larva management, creep spreading, tech switch etc.
The Show of a Lifetime
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
November 29 2010 05:35 GMT
#13
From a purely design point of view, Terran certainly seem more developed than Protoss or Zerg. They have more racial perks at their disposal and just feel much more fleshed out than the other two races.

As for how that translates to potential skill ceiling/balancing, I don't have a clue and I don't see how anyone else can at this point.

CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:39:09
November 29 2010 05:36 GMT
#14
On November 29 2010 14:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2010 14:18 Loser777 wrote:
If you're not walling off, placing the depot next to the mineral line is the most efficient use of resources, as SCVs can return to mining immediately after --there's a reason for that, it's not "because they can".


Try as they might, Protoss can't place their Pylon in the middle of their mineral line, although that would be just as resource efficient.

Yes they can,
[image loading]
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
alexanderzero
Profile Joined June 2008
United States659 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:40:38
November 29 2010 05:39 GMT
#15
What I meant to imply is that it has already been used in every way it can be used. There are many, many tricks to learn in mastering Creep spread, but all of them are already at players' disposal. Those tricks aren't going to change in six months' time.


I find this statement a little bit unjustified. If the history of both Brood War and SC2 is any indication, even the simplest of mechanics may hold juicy secrets to be discovered in the future.

Energy tension isn't enough to create depth in abilities that have only a straight-forward use.


I'm actually kind of confused about this statement. Could you explain it another way?
I am a tournament organizazer.
xLethargicax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States469 Posts
November 29 2010 05:39 GMT
#16
As others have said, this is a pretty well drawn out post. I have to general idea of terran having the most to gain out of skill.

Also as someone said earlier, I think it's a design flaw. During the beta I always felt like Protoss was going to be the race filled with tricks and cunning, I.E. Warp gates and warp prisms, colossi, and blink. It sucks to see how it all boiled down. I think a retouching of some of the Protoss mechanics would do wonders. Protoss has all these awesomely unique abilities but most of them aren't actually viable.

That's not even touching on Zerg
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:43:17
November 29 2010 05:42 GMT
#17
I don't see the connection; Highest skill ceiling because they are the most dynamic? What?
Skill ceiling could be argued for any race; Baneling drop/Mutas and mutas are fairly micro based, as well as zerg having some ranged step move units ie roach, making ground banelings hit groups of more than 3 marines etc
A similar arguement could be made for toss, and flanking being good is almost universal, all races benefit from a flank
The number of tactics available is higher because they have more stuff, that has no bearing on the skill ceiling though..
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
SiguR
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada2039 Posts
November 29 2010 05:42 GMT
#18
I really liked the conclusion of your post and your description of shallow synergies.

I do often get the sneaking, worried feeling that there is a problem with the core fundamentals of some of the race mechanics, so i'm inclined to agree with you on that as well.

I just hope everything gets appropriately remedied to ensure the longevity of starcraft.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
November 29 2010 05:44 GMT
#19
I read through this and just took it to basically say what I already think, which is that because the game was released with a "terran" focus in the single player, Terran has been released as the more complete race with more of their complete tools at their disposal. Almost has the feel like a new MMORPG where levels 1-30 are nice and polished with loads of content, then you get to level 36 and the game comes to a halt because they know they'll clean that up down the road with patches/expansions.

I mean when you go through the list of options and features terran has that they could deal without, it almost looks like Terran is the race that already has the expansion units/features. I've done this before, start to list out all the terran units, buildings, upgrades, features, etc. The list is enormous compared to the other races. I mean simple enough is to start with all the command center can do. I am fine with the mules, and the scan, but then you get the PF ok, oh wait you can also LOAD units into it as well and fly.

It is like they took 1 month to develop the Command Center then went "oh shit we only have 3 days to develop the hatch.. how about a queen... oh shit we have 10 minutes to develop the nexus.. how about a 25 energy spell that boost stuff?" Ok cool back on schedule... now lets move on to tier 1...the barracks..I know that isn't the approach they really took but that is just how it feels to me at times. And I can understand that because maybe to some degree for the single player to feel complete and thought out for the Terran focus it meant that the race in general got more attention.

In the future expansions I'm full expecting Terran to get the least attention, least units and features added, while the other 2 races go through more polish. This doesn't mean buff/nerfs, just added elements that can change up gameplay, open up different styles of play, etc.

This was one of the reason when choosing my race after playing random for a long time I didn't pick Terran. It was almost overwhelming the number of features and options.
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 05:47:32
November 29 2010 05:45 GMT
#20
I disagree. I don't think these add creative play, but just more play. I don't find MULEs being dropped to repair or SCVs brought along with a push to repair creative. They were intended to do that, but that is about as far as they can go. It just took time, not innovation for a player to find out these things. I'm sure in developing, the Blizzard guys were planning for Planetary Fortresses to be mass repaired and bunker rushes to be more common and more bombastic because of salvage.

who’d have imagined on Day 1 of Beta that MULEs would be dropped on Lost Temple ledges to keep Thors alive, or that Planetary Fortresses would be commonly built for late-game area denial when supplies are capped but resources are plenty?


Given time, these aren't outlandish concepts. It isn't hard to think of: "Oh, maybe I build this huge fortress to help my defenses!" or "Well a MULE can repair, and it can be dropped anywhere in my vision. So let me drop it on a mechanical unit to repair it!" These ideas just appeared a little late because Terran has a bunch of this stuff to explore.

I much rather the simplicity of Protoss and Zerg. It forces players to think outside of the box to be creative because they cannot rely on their race's intentions to win. They must rely on themselves. For example, I consider this creativity: "Look at this changeling, it is clearly meant to scout...but what if I create 4 and block my enemies ramp with it using hold position!" That is completely not the purpose of the changeling but through creativity, Zerg players use it this way. Who would've thought to use a Phoenixes graviton beam on their own unit to avoid the Thor's special ability. Who would've though to use a few Ravens, a support caster, to use a mass Auto-Turret harass tactic. I don't even want to imagine the positional tactics Hunter Seeker Missiles will create when heavy macro games become more common.

In the future expansions, I want all the races to have more tools, but I want the races to have simple tools. Then it will be up to the players to make them useful. However, I'm glad that Terran has these tools. It adds more versatility to the races! I just don't want Protoss and Zerg to have these clear-cut tools.
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