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On December 28 2010 01:00 FLuE wrote: You sir, might have just won the thread with the longest post completely missing the point. Elaborate please.
Guy says Terrans have the lowest skill ceiling because of a bunch of Terran perks. I list a bunch of Zerg and Protoss perks and say that anyone can list perks but it doesnt make a race have a lower skill ceiling. How is that missing the point?
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I would like to see banhammering action.. (jesus, because he has the highest skillceiling due to most diversive playstyle in dreamhack.)
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Because the OP, regardless of how the thread has deteriorated over the past 18 pages, has nothing to do with what you spent time typing and responding to.
"Perks" of any of the races have nothing at all to do with skill ceiling. The things you listed in no way or shape reflect the skill ceiling and how that term is being used in this thread.You just listed a bunch of race features that help when you screw up and have to recover.
There are moments during a game where races are more forgiving, but for example missing probes and being able to chrono boost out more has nothing to do with skill ceiling. You shouldn't have missed making the probes in the first place.
Basically you responded to a pointless post with a longer pointless post which has no correlation to what the original poster was talking about.
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I would say that Terran has the highest potential skill ceiling for sure. If we made an impossibly good AI script, I'm pretty much willing to bet that T would win most of the time, because their units just gain so much from micro. Imagine...20 marines vs 20 banelings would result in 20 marines alive. Granted, no human can ever do that, but the ceiling is there.
Within human bounds, I have no idea...one thing is for sure though, and that is that holding hotkeys down does not qualify as extra APM, zerg players, nor spamming move orders to slings.
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On December 28 2010 01:22 FLuE wrote: Because the OP, regardless of how the thread has deteriorated over the past 18 pages, has nothing to do with what you spent time typing and responding to.
"Perks" of any of the races have nothing at all to do with skill ceiling. The things you listed in no way or shape reflect the skill ceiling and how that term is being used in this thread.You just listed a bunch of race features that help when you screw up and have to recover.
There are moments during a game where races are more forgiving, but for example missing probes and being able to chrono boost out more has nothing to do with skill ceiling. You shouldn't have missed making the probes in the first place.
Basically you responded to a pointless post with a longer pointless post which has no correlation to what the original poster was talking about. Fair enough. I try to read through the thread to get an idea of what kind of discussion has been going on, but apparently it backfires somtimes
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On December 28 2010 01:25 shadymmj wrote: I would say that Terran has the highest potential skill ceiling for sure. If we made an impossibly good AI script, I'm pretty much willing to bet that T would win most of the time, because their units just gain so much from micro. Imagine...20 marines vs 20 banelings would result in 20 marines alive. Granted, no human can ever do that, but the ceiling is there.
Within human bounds, I have no idea...one thing is for sure though, and that is that holding hotkeys down does not qualify as extra APM, zerg players, nor spamming move orders to slings.
Yes that AI part pretty much says all.
If you get better and better micro the Terran units will gain the most out of it; as they all range and with Stim the potential to hit&run is very big.
However, humans will reach a limit of Micro; so in this view the game will shift to more Micro anyway if players get a pretty much perfect Macro.
Currently theirs enough mistakes in macro even at Pro level that easily decide a game; so if all get better and Macro mistakes are eliminated to a minimum the Micro is the factor that matters most.
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On December 27 2010 19:49 GenesisX wrote: You're serious? How easy do you think it is to scout Terran? Even if you do manage to sneak an overlord in, its impossible to tell what Terran is doing because they just have so many options. Example: scout 2 gas = fast banshees, fast hellion drop / thor drop, fast tank/marines push. Scout 2 rax = expo, all-in, transition 2 gas to any build listed above, early agression, 4 OC push. Possibilities are endless for Terran, yet all T has to do to scout Zerg is find 1 tech building. It isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. The ability to scout correctly and conclude what your opponent is doing is divorced from skill. Skill is tied in with micro and macro, scouting and the ability to predict what your opponent is doing comes almost purely from game experience and being able to correctly interpret minor tells in what your opponent is doing. That has little to do with skill.
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On December 28 2010 05:13 MozzarellaL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 19:49 GenesisX wrote: You're serious? How easy do you think it is to scout Terran? Even if you do manage to sneak an overlord in, its impossible to tell what Terran is doing because they just have so many options. Example: scout 2 gas = fast banshees, fast hellion drop / thor drop, fast tank/marines push. Scout 2 rax = expo, all-in, transition 2 gas to any build listed above, early agression, 4 OC push. Possibilities are endless for Terran, yet all T has to do to scout Zerg is find 1 tech building. It isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. The ability to scout correctly and conclude what your opponent is doing is divorced from skill. Skill is tied in with micro and macro, scouting and the ability to predict what your opponent is doing comes almost purely from game experience and being able to correctly interpret minor tells in what your opponent is doing. That has little to do with skill. completely agree with this... how else can people who are not pros have such a deep knowledge of the game. Some people are students/fans of the game.and know just as much without having to play at the highest level.
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I think someone a couple pages back hit the nail on the head in saying Terran will be the most diverse race because it has inexpensive and efficient early game strategies that lead to additional mid-game strategies. Why do you think blizzard is so hesitant to buff terran lategame in response to the terran outcry? I feel they have a huge advantage in these stages of the game given their efficiency making it hard to justify buffing the late game without toning down the early and midgame power of bio
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On December 28 2010 05:13 MozzarellaL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 19:49 GenesisX wrote: You're serious? How easy do you think it is to scout Terran? Even if you do manage to sneak an overlord in, its impossible to tell what Terran is doing because they just have so many options. Example: scout 2 gas = fast banshees, fast hellion drop / thor drop, fast tank/marines push. Scout 2 rax = expo, all-in, transition 2 gas to any build listed above, early agression, 4 OC push. Possibilities are endless for Terran, yet all T has to do to scout Zerg is find 1 tech building. It isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. The ability to scout correctly and conclude what your opponent is doing is divorced from skill. Skill is tied in with micro and macro, scouting and the ability to predict what your opponent is doing comes almost purely from game experience and being able to correctly interpret minor tells in what your opponent is doing. That has little to do with skill.
I see. You're one of those people who think reaction speed and accuracy is what constitutes skill. Let me guess you played FPS games much? Might want to refer to a dictionary sometime.
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On December 28 2010 05:59 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 05:13 MozzarellaL wrote:On December 27 2010 19:49 GenesisX wrote: You're serious? How easy do you think it is to scout Terran? Even if you do manage to sneak an overlord in, its impossible to tell what Terran is doing because they just have so many options. Example: scout 2 gas = fast banshees, fast hellion drop / thor drop, fast tank/marines push. Scout 2 rax = expo, all-in, transition 2 gas to any build listed above, early agression, 4 OC push. Possibilities are endless for Terran, yet all T has to do to scout Zerg is find 1 tech building. It isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. The ability to scout correctly and conclude what your opponent is doing is divorced from skill. Skill is tied in with micro and macro, scouting and the ability to predict what your opponent is doing comes almost purely from game experience and being able to correctly interpret minor tells in what your opponent is doing. That has little to do with skill. completely agree with this... how else can people who are not pros have such a deep knowledge of the game. Some people are students/fans of the game.and know just as much without having to play at the highest level.
There is practically no one who is bad at the game who deep knowledge of the game. Pretty much the only person I can think of is day[9], and I highly doubt he would have trouble making top 200 in less than a month if he put any amount of time into playing the game (assuming he isn't already top 200 calibre on some smurf name).
The ability to scout correctly and conclude what the opponent is doing may not be terribly difficult, but knowing how to do this in an effective way requires a lot of skill. Sure, any idiot can send an overlord in at 6:35 or whatever timing and see "oh he's making a factory," but is his scouting actually beneficial to his build order? Does seeing the factory help him adjust or is it just "oh he's making a factory?"
Good players with a deep understanding of the game scout at appropriate timings for their particular build in order to properly adjust to what their opponent is doing while wasting as few resources as possible. Players who aren't at the top level have a hard time noticing these things and can't really comprehend them at all; they're too busy losing to every possible build the opponent does where they macro well.
Calling mechanical skill the only valid type of skill is absolutely ridiculous, and there are a lot of 2nd teir players (players who are, for example, on the top 200 and do well in smaller tournaments but not MLG, GSL, and so on) who are relatively weak mechanically. Similarly, even among top teir players, some are stronger mechanically while others are somewhat weaker at mechanics but still perform well. Saying that only the mechanically strong players are "skilled" is absurd.
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Dear OP,
Nothing you said here is skill
From Silent90
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As a Zerg player I think most people who have a hard time playing Zerg do more so out of their own stupidity, for lack of a better word, than any actual weaknesses with the Zerg. That said I would like to see a few additional Zerg units and perhaps a few more abilities. For example: bring back the Lurker and maybe give us a capital air unit that can contend with Carriers and Battlecruisers effectively. Even if I have to do so 2 or 3 to 1. But what about a "Zergling Frenzy" which would cause Zerglings to attack twice as fast for a period of time, but could not be stopped either until there are no enemeis within their vision range or until that time is up. Those are just examples and random thoughts if someone were to put some real thought into it I'm sure we could come up with more interesting qualities to add to game depth. It's not necessary I would just like to see it done. If only for experimental purposes.
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On December 27 2010 13:32 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 10:55 AndAgain wrote:On December 27 2010 06:15 Liquid`Tyler wrote: terran and zerg have highest skill ceilings because they're further away from hitting the protoss ceiling, which is the highest, because they first need to switch race to protoss. You actually think protoss has the highest skill ceiling? I'd really like to know why. i have no idea. the skill ceiling for starcraft in general, for any race, is so high that no one is near reaching it. it will never matter which race has the highest skill ceiling because the race with the lowest ceiling is still far beyond our reach. but i am very tempted to tell the next terran i lose to that i would have won if only my race could take advantage of my skills. that's a new level of trash talking and arrogance. HAHA well spoken bro! Totally agree
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This wasn't true until Bliz nerfed BBS out of the game
I would also rather have quadruple production and double speed instead of the mule
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I'm sorry if this has already been said, but I don't think what the OP said really reflects a skill ceiling. It certainly represents a larger variety of options for the Terran, but I don't know if that necesarrily equates to allowing a greater use of personal skill. Even if it did, couldn't it be argued that other races having to know the responses to each of Terran's options would require an equivalent amount of skill?
I can understand the idea of Terran's synergy allowing more diverse playstyles and a lot more individual tactics, but I don't think that necessarily equates to allowing a greater use of skill and, as I already said, even if it did wouldn't the other player's reaction to it always require a similar amount of skill? I certainly think Terran may end up having the most diverse arsenal, but due to the nature of the game I can't see that actually reflecting any skill ceiling, although it may well reflect a greater... Creativity ceiling? I assume you know what I mean and I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll end the post here.
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this is very true, im bumping this farther so it gets more noticed
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I seriously think that sentries just make up for the lack of additional abilities, for protoss at least.
But I see OP's point, though I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that Terran is how it is now. I agree that the next two patches should add some more change to Zerg and Protoss.
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On December 27 2010 16:25 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 15:22 RonaldRayGun wrote:On December 27 2010 15:19 Saechiis wrote:On December 27 2010 14:57 RonaldRayGun wrote: I looked at the title and I lol'd. Zerg has the highest ceiling, and Protoss second. Terran is forgiving. You can call down mules if you forget to, or if you pose alll your workers. Furthermore, you can scan instead of scouting. You're the perfect example of a brainwashed person. You're very likely to be in bronze and can only repeat false claims made by other bronze noobs. You don't even know what skill ceiling means, so you assume it has something to do with the difficulty of playing a race. Please stop polluting the forums. Absolutely not. I listen to the pros like Artosis and IdrA. Incontrol and NonY also had some harsh words for this mechanic. It seems a little OP. Not in my level of play (gold), but in pro level. 2 Zergs and 2 Protosses think a race other than their own is overpowered, shocking. The MULE is the more forgiving of the three macro mechanics in essence that you can instantly spend your energy when you've been sloppy in your macro. Unfortunately though, you can't just look at it in a vacuum. First of all, the MULE isn't some kind of bonus on top of even economies. Terran is the only race that can't power harvesters, which is kind of key in an economy based RTS. SCV's will always take 17 seconds to build and can be only built 1 at a time per CC. Compare that to Zerg who can built multiple drones at a time and Protoss that can cut down probe build time by 10 seconds per chronoboost, and you'll see that Terran will inevitably lag behind in worker production, and consequently income. Hence the Terran macro mechanic, the MULE, which exists to counteract the disparity in mining workers. The reason that the MULE is more forgiving a macro mechanic in forgetting it, is because Terran macro itself is the most unforgiving of the three races. Since Zerg and Protoss have macro mechanics that boost production it's easier for them to boost out units to spend their money excesses. Terran production can only be boosted by building more production facilities which inevitably means that you can't spend your money if you haven't been macro'ing well. If you're floating 5k gas you can't spend it instantly to morph all your larvae into Ultra's, you can only build a bunch of extra factories/ starports/ add-ons and wait 60 seconds before you can start using them to produce actual units. And once you've burned through your excess gas by building more production facilities than you can actually support from your income ,you're stuck with expensive idle buildings. Sure it seems overpowered when a bad macroíng Terran throws down 8 MULE's and matches his opponents mineral income with it for their 90 second duration. But he can't actually pour that money immediately into units. He's just now getting the money he would have gotten during the 8x 90 seconds before if he had macroed well. Overall, Terran's slower worker production combined with the MULE's ability of ignoring mineral saturation means that Terrans overall stay on 1 base longer, which gives many noobs the idea that "Terran can just 1-base forever since MULE's give infinity minerals". Edit: I feel like I've wasted my time explaining race mechanics to someone who just wants to put his fingers in his ears and yell imba so he doesn't have to face the fact that he's in Gold because he's just not that good a player.
Actually, this is quite an eye-opening post. It makes a decent amount of sense, but unfortunately off-topic. Still, though, I am impressed.
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