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On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all.
You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest.
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On November 29 2010 15:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:21 keV. wrote:On November 29 2010 15:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:13 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:You can do this placement without losing mining time, you just have to tell the probe on the far right right to build it. ![[image loading]](http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7083/screenshot2010112822102.jpg) And how is that Protoss supposed to wall? Terrans don't lose the ability to wall, or wall quickly, by building Depots next to their gas. What it comes down to is what I've been saying all along -- not that Protoss is UP, but that the Protoss player is missing basic options that are available to the Terran. The Terran doesn't have to choose between walling and keeping his Depots safe. The Protoss does. Is this argument for Terran having the highest skill ceiling? If it is, I don't see it. What does diversity have to do with skill? You don't answer that anywhere in your post with sufficient backing. You're whole post seems like you are saying something, that everyone generally agrees with: "Terran are the most diverse/developed race" and trying to twist it into an argument for skill ceiling. They simply are not the same thing. I'm a little upset that people are getting caught up on the "skill ceiling" phrasing, which I think is causing a lot of confusion unfortunately. While I admit it might not be ideal, I did explain precisely what definition of 'skill ceiling' I was using for my purposes in paragraph 2. I am not talking about the skill ceiling of players, but of the race as a whole. If it makes more sense to think of this as versatility, go right ahead.
You wrote the topic title bud. Though, I can understand you not calling it straight. A thread called "Terran are the most diverse race" would've been met with a bunch of nods and then ended.
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On November 29 2010 15:18 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:13 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:You can do this placement without losing mining time, you just have to tell the probe on the far right right to build it. And how is that Protoss supposed to wall? Terrans don't lose the ability to wall, or wall quickly, by building Depots next to their gas. What it comes down to is what I've been saying all along -- not that Protoss is UP, but that the Protoss player is missing basic options that are available to the Terran. The Terran doesn't have to choose between walling and keeping his Depots safe. The Protoss does.
As Protoss you don't need to wall in any match up except PvZ., and in TvZ the Terran must wall off or he will be vulnerable to ling harass, just like the Protoss. Protoss and Terran can wall off if they want to, but they only have to versus Zerg.
You don't lose the ability to wall if you build your first pylon next to your gas. Believe it or not you can build a second pylon (then add a gate/core or other similar sized building) to wall off your ramp later.
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On November 29 2010 15:35 keV. wrote:You wrote the topic title bud. Though, I can understand you not calling it straight. A thread called "Terran are the most diverse race" would've been met with a bunch of nods and then ended.
I also wrote paragraph numero deux. It is common practice to grant someone an unorthodox definition for a term if they insist on using it; I wasn't asking for anything unreasonable.
My point isn't that "Terrans are the most versatile." It's that "Terrans are the most versatile and this is a bad thing." And there have been quite a few disagreements already, not just nods.
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On November 29 2010 15:40 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:35 keV. wrote:You wrote the topic title bud. Though, I can understand you not calling it straight. A thread called "Terran are the most diverse race" would've been met with a bunch of nods and then ended.
I also wrote paragraph numero deux. It is common practice to grant someone an unorthodox definition for a term if they insist on using it; I wasn't asking for anything unreasonable. My point isn't that "Terrans are the most versatile." It's that "Terrans are the most versatile and this is a bad thing." And there have been quite a few disagreements already, not just nods.
Edit: Forget it, I don't want to derail you're thread.
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I think zerg still has a lot of exploration to do. Until only recently have they become more popular as they are no longer easily the weakest race. Hell, hardly anybody uses OL speed/drops, and with that you can:
-baneling bomb
-carry a queen to spit creep tumors anywhere on the map (with OL creep spread to lay the foundation). This includes expansions (so you don't have to leave overlords exposed) and even your opponents base (to spy for nydus or take up building room)
-if you've already got OL speed/drop and a nydus, you can doom drop into their base and immediately start a worm for your units to retreat through when their army arrives
Plus there's burrow which can be used for:
-baneling minefields (lay traps for unsuspecting marines! Or show up at their mineral line and the workers are already gone? burrow to delay them from returning!)
-roach/infestors sneaking into their base, or digging underneath their army and popping up or shooting IT eggs to surround them or choke their ramp)
-a sling to burrow underneath an expo so they can't place a CC/nexus/ on it
-and obviously there's roach regeneration, ambushes, and hiding until reinforcements arrive (unless they have detection, or you force a scan)
What about double nydus for double the worms? they share the same network
What about FG+banelings to rape light units? Mass NP on collosi/thors/spellcasters?
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@OP
Thanks, thats a very sufficient explanation of your point.
However I disagree, and here is why:
Sure contaminate exist in a "vacuum", but take the changeling, you can use changelings to block ramp or you could also use it as a mind game, making your opponent think he has more marines than he has, so he stops production, these small but very important things that I doubt blizzard had in mind while creating the game...
I also doubt that creep was meant to be used to hinder people from building buildings, I can see this become a viable strat to spread goo all over someones main near pylons pretty early in the game to stop people from throwing down gateways etc.
not to mention you can deny expansions on island/expansions behind rocks, I doubt they had this in mind...
Burrow is meant to hide units, but it can also be used to heal units (not thinking of roaches, they are obviously meant to heal underground), you can use burrow as scout and you can use burrow to deny buildings.
These are just a few things..
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I would be interested to see Chrono Boost on units.
Although it might have to be restricted from Massive units, or have duration dependent on unit cost/food or something. Colossi really don't need Stimpacks.
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On November 29 2010 15:44 keV. wrote:Why do you insist on altering the definition of an, already, well-credited expression?
Because it's no more misleading than using "Terrans are Versatile" as title would have been. Terrans aren't just versatile now. My point has been that they will continue to be versatile while other races stagnate, because of the amount of tricks at their disposal and the synergy between these tricks. I'm done arguing about this. If you want to think that I deliberately misled people to create controversy, you're welcome to ask a mod to change the title to something you guys find more agreeable, I really couldn't care less.
On November 29 2010 15:44 kef wrote:
I think zerg still has a lot of exploration to do. Until only recently have they become more popular as they are no longer easily the weakest race. Hell, hardly anybody uses OL speed/drops, and with that you can:
-baneling bomb
-carry a queen to spit creep tumors anywhere on the map (with OL creep spread to lay the foundation). This includes expansions (so you don't have to leave overlords exposed) and even your opponents base (to spy for nydus or take up building room)
-if you've already got OL speed/drop and a nydus, you can doom drop into their base and immediately start a worm for your units to retreat through when their army arrives
Plus there's burrow which can be used for:
-baneling minefields (lay traps for unsuspecting marines! Or show up at their mineral line and the workers are already gone? burrow to delay them from returning!)
-roach/infestors sneaking into their base, or digging underneath their army and popping up or shooting IT eggs to surround them or choke their ramp)
-a sling to burrow underneath an expo so they can't place a CC/nexus/ on it
-and obviously there's roach regeneration, ambushes, and hiding until reinforcements arrive (unless they have detection, or you force a scan)
What about double nydus for double the worms? they share the same network
What about FG+banelings to rape light units? Mass NP on collosi/thors/spellcasters?
A lot of the points you make here revolve around unit abilities and I was very careful to avoid talking about those. Each race has unit micro tricks that remain to be found, it's not fair to say "Zerg balances out the OC and the PF with the Overseer" because I could just as easily say "the Overseer is only balancing out for the Raven."
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On November 29 2010 15:06 PurpleCrack wrote:Show nested quote +
@OP, I agree with your post. Terran's abilities seem a little more developed and synergetic than the other races. Repair as an ability, seems like a pretty big advantage as an OPTION rather than zerg's heal or protoss' shield, which reduces their fluidity.
Repair cost money and mining time, how is that different from creating a additional queen that can spread creep ( which is like a SUPER speed upgrade ) plus it can attack quite well and heal for only 150 minerals? Using that additional queen to heal almost dead units INSTANTLY seems more "fluid" than repairing which costs minerals and take time...
A thor rush with scvs repairing is different from a rush with a queen for transfusion. Why? Queens are too slow for such a rush. Scvs can also heal planetary fortresses, or turrets. The difference is the versatility. And what about protoss?
On November 29 2010 15:13 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:02 mizU wrote:On November 29 2010 14:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On November 29 2010 14:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 14:18 Loser777 wrote:
If you're not walling off, placing the depot next to the mineral line is the most efficient use of resources, as SCVs can return to mining immediately after --there's a reason for that, it's not "because they can". Try as they might, Protoss can't place their Pylon in the middle of their mineral line, although that would be just as resource efficient. Yes they can, ![[image loading]](http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4523/screenshot2010112821325.jpg) Your mining time would be reduced with that pylon placement. @OP, I agree with your post. Terran's abilities seem a little more developed and synergetic than the other races. Repair as an ability, seems like a pretty big advantage as an OPTION rather than zerg's heal or protoss' shield, which reduces their fluidity. You can do this placement without losing mining time, you just have to tell the probe on the far right right to build it.
The point wasn't about losing mining time to build the structure, it was placement of the structure (IN the mineral line), without losing mining time, due to it being in the way.
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Supply Calldown is an example of an ability with "straight-forward" use. It does not provide any auxiliary benefits that could possibly be taken advantage of in creative ways. The fact that it creates energy tension with MULE (even if that were 100% true 100% of the time) wouldn't change the fact that the ability itself is entirely shallow. No one will ever surprise you with their creative use of Supply Calldown.
People surprised me back in the beta when they used it to create tougher wall-ins at their front door. Admittedly the trick isn't considered practical right now, but to say that nobody could ever use it in a creative or surprising way is false.
Also, I don't know why you consider using economic trade offs in a strategy to be uncreative. Making the correct decisions with energy in order to execute a specialized rush or abuse a slight timing window takes a lot of creativity. You might say that certain abilities don't synergize with the rest of a players army, but if that were true then the ability would never be used.
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On November 29 2010 14:06 pure.Wasted wrote:
Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race
Any1 else disagree with this? Its apparently "common sense" but I've never heard anyone describe Terran as needing the most micro.
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On November 29 2010 15:55 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 14:06 pure.Wasted wrote:
Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race Any1 else disagree with this? Its apparently "common sense" but I've never heard anyone describe Terran as needing the most micro.
I don't understand that comment at all. Controlling a bio ball with medivacs is vastly easier than any other similar tiered composition. You're not alone.
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[B]On November 29 2010 15:52 mizU wrote:
A thor rush with scvs repairing is different from a rush with a queen for transfusion. Why? Queens are too slow for such a rush. Scvs can also heal planetary fortresses, or turrets. The difference is the versatility. And what about protoss?
Queens on creep aren't much slower than thors, so no...
Creep spread can occur quite quickly with nice tumor control and speed overlords with creep spread.
You can transfuse spines and spores too you know... not to mention EVERY unit, you can't repair a marine/marauder/ghost.
What about protoss?
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The point wasn't about losing mining time to build the structure, it was placement of the structure (IN the mineral line), without losing mining time, due to it being in the way.
I know, that's why I modified it O_O
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Terran are the most dynamic race but not because they place supply depots in fancy places.
The tech lab and reactor are going to be what change the meta game in my opinion. Terrans will be able to think ahead, have extra reactors, and change unit compositions as quickly as Zerg. Thor siege tank marine banshee one second, and then mass hellion marauder dropship the next.
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On November 29 2010 15:47 PurpleCrack wrote:Sure contaminate exist in a "vacuum", but take the changeling, you can use changelings to block ramp or you could also use it as a mind game, making your opponent think he has more marines than he has, so he stops production, these small but very important things that I doubt blizzard had in mind while creating the game...
While these are definitely interesting uses of the ability, they are really no more interesting than a mass of Ghosts being used to snipe down Ultralisks. Both are 'unorthodox' plays that are fun to watch... but because there are so many micro possibilities for the units of all races already, I don't think it's productive to focus the discussion over that kind of unit micro. Think of it this way: every Zerg unit's micro is canceled out by every Terran unit's micro. Except on top of that the Terran has the CC, the OC, the PF, the Bunker all doing strange and unpredictable things, and this is what the Zerg and especially the Protoss have no equivalent to.
I also doubt that creep was meant to be used to hinder people from building buildings, I can see this become a viable strat to spread goo all over someones main near pylons pretty early in the game to stop people from throwing down gateways etc.
not to mention you can deny expansions on island/expansions behind rocks, I doubt they had this in mind...
I always loved the idea of Creep pushing, and was incredibly sad to hear it nerfed because of some 2v2 ally complications. While in theory this is an interesting suggestion, I'm not sure it's viable in practice. By the time you can get Creep Tumors into his nat or his main he's already got detection, and if you use Overlords to do it instead, well, they're shot down very, very easily and the advantage is lost.
Burrow is meant to hide units, but it can also be used to heal units (not thinking of roaches, they are obviously meant to heal underground), you can use burrow as scout and you can use burrow to deny buildings.
These are just a few things..
I definitely agree that Burrow and especially Burrow+heal and Burrow+move have been great additions to Zerg... but I still think there's something fundamental missing from this picture. It's like having Terran mechanical units not regenerate their HP in any way and then not adding Repair. You get a sense of the racial identity, but it isn't really complete, if that makes sense. There's rooms to complicate the system -- by adding new mechanics to the Queen, or to the Hatchery/Lair/Hive, or to Creep Tumors, or to a completely new structure that serves no purpose other than parallel the Sensor Tower in its utility value.
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On November 29 2010 15:56 PurpleCrack wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On November 29 2010 15:52 mizU wrote:
A thor rush with scvs repairing is different from a rush with a queen for transfusion. Why? Queens are too slow for such a rush. Scvs can also heal planetary fortresses, or turrets. The difference is the versatility. And what about protoss? Queens on creep aren't much slower than thors, so no... Creep spread can occur quite quickly with nice tumor control and speed overlords with creep spread. You can transfuse spines and spores too you know... not to mention EVERY unit, you can't repair a marine/marauder/ghost. What about protoss?
You won't reach the enemy base in the same time it takes for a Thor rush to hit, and even if you could you'd be running straight into his frontline defenses whereas a Thor rush can fly anywhere. They aren't comparable.
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On November 29 2010 15:55 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 14:06 pure.Wasted wrote:
Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race Any1 else disagree with this? Its apparently "common sense" but I've never heard anyone describe Terran as needing the most micro.
Tell that to Foxer whose Marines can counter Banelings, their hard counter. It doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree, as the very next sentence says "this is completely open to debate." Which you're doing. Which is why I chose not to talk about micro at all, except insofar as to say I won't be talking about it.
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Well I read the post most of what your saying happens with many other races it sounds like your highlighting many of the abilities of the race and thinking of how it was used in beta and how over time it has changed.
Every race has had many changes I don't know maybe you don't have alot of experience watching the other races or not.
Just some things for Protoss Warping in with pylons into your opponents base once you have high ground vision that wasn't something people were doing beginning of beta. No one has touched hallucinate and there are many threads discussing its potential. You say Chronoboost is stale but I disagree Chronoboost can make a 10 second difference in a timing and when to attack and 10 seconds is huge so you could be looking at many different strategies just based on how many chronoboost are used here or there. Guineapigs GSL going 2 pylon if a Zerg FE. Pylon blocking an opponent in. Using Forcefields to contain an opponent rather than keep them out. Warp Prism are pretty unexplored. Something are placed into the game just to be placed. Like turning a warpgate back into a warp gate its there but no uses it maybe someone discovers something with it.
I could go on and on basically every races potential is all dependent on there design. What I mean is terran is all about having options so they have quirky things dealing with there options. Protoss has chrono and warp in ability and like you say with the supply depot you place it were ever because you can. A protoss can chrono a warpgate or not because he can. A zerg can not produce units and drone hard because they can or double extractor trick because they can. There are so many things not figured out I don't think supply depot has or will have a big outcome on the potential of Terran. If synergy was just so fluid with terran you would be suggesting that there is no holes to exploit timings when to best attack terran but thats not the case.
I like the effort but honestly its kind of like the many many other threads that seem to pop up lately. Someone place X race and loves X race and theorycrafts to themselves and thinks of tons of cool things about there race they havent seen mentioned. They log onto TL and make a Thread to share there revelation and joy. I am just not a fan of I love my race here is why threads. Good effort nonetheless
Like the HUGE GSL thread where people trying to figure out what is wrong with Protoss.
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EPT
