|
I enjoyed the OP, good read. Your observations of the race mechanics and gimmicks are quite right, but I would interpret it otherwise, as using the versatility of a race does not translate into skill necessarily.
As I view it, there are different skills present in Starcraft 2 (and in BW too for that matter) and needed for different races. I know it becomes old but I like to compare SC2 Zerg to BW Terran a little bit because I think those two represent the "management" aspect in RTS. You spend most of the time looking at your base, you have much to do just in the basic mechanics, controlling your units individually is not as important as it is with Protoss or Terran with the exception of some situations. Therefore Zerg is the race which profits most from good mechanics (preferably BW ones) and I predicted it back in the beta, once Zerg is figured out "how to be played" they will dominate for some time.
Terran is the agressive powerhouse in SC2 and their versatility and the innovative spirit of their players is needed because naturally Protoss and Zerg players adapt to the shenanigans a Terran can throw at you. What I'm trying to say is, that just the agressor-defender-scheme of all the T vs. X matchups dictates that the Terran is the one who needs to figure out new things every month (exaggerated) while to other one tries to adapt its build to it. It requires its own skill. I'm wondering how Terran gameplay will look in one year from now. I'm not even sure if there will be some "normal" way to play them as that could possibly a downside for the Terran because it seems they are meant to be unpredictable.
I'm not entirely sure where to put Protoss right now. Their metagame is not as evolved possibly. They have much raw power but are very fragile if caught with their pants down with good timing. Protoss certainly is much about micro, spellcasting and so on and could become a "timing race" which needs certain timings created by chronoboost to do as much damage as possible with their gamebreaking units and get themselves in a better position. But as said, I'm not so sure about them.
|
On November 29 2010 16:14 oZii wrote:Just some things for Protoss Warping in with pylons into your opponents base once you have high ground vision that wasn't something people were doing beginning of beta.
I'll give you that. 
You say Chronoboost is stale but I disagree Chronoboost can make a 10 second difference in a timing and when to attack and 10 seconds is huge so you could be looking at many different strategies just based on how many chronoboost are used here or there.
Well if you want to give the Protoss points for Chronoboost, how many points do we give the Terrans for Techlab/Reactor, which I didn't even mention once? I'm not sure you want to go down that road, heh.
Your other suggestions were all about unit micro and I've explained quite a few times (in OP and on this last page) why I feel we ought to leave that out of the discussion.
|
I watched some of the Dream Hack videos from day9tv and I gotta hand it to
+ Show Spoiler + Naama vs DarkForce in Lost Temple, I just knew it that you should have a good amount of vikings, not to many to defend against muta/bling/ling/roach composition
I really have to agree that terran units complement each other unlike that of zerg and protoss.
P.S. a few vikings is really a good counter against muta harass.
|
On November 29 2010 15:40 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:35 keV. wrote:You wrote the topic title bud. Though, I can understand you not calling it straight. A thread called "Terran are the most diverse race" would've been met with a bunch of nods and then ended.
My point isn't that "Terrans are the most versatile." It's that "Terrans are the most versatile and this is a bad thing." And there have been quite a few disagreements already, not just nods.
Effectively making it a whine thread, albeit an extra wordy and convoluted one.
|
On November 29 2010 16:30 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:40 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 keV. wrote:You wrote the topic title bud. Though, I can understand you not calling it straight. A thread called "Terran are the most diverse race" would've been met with a bunch of nods and then ended.
My point isn't that "Terrans are the most versatile." It's that "Terrans are the most versatile and this is a bad thing." And there have been quite a few disagreements already, not just nods. Effectively making it a whine thread, albeit an extra wordy and convoluted one.
Sideburn, meet constructive criticism.
Constructive criticism, Sideburn.
I don't believe you've met.
|
Protoss has many ways of placing their buildings. Thats why theres warp in and pylon power. Zergs have overlords to spread creep for nydus worms....
|
On November 29 2010 16:13 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:55 Subversion wrote:On November 29 2010 14:06 pure.Wasted wrote:
Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race Any1 else disagree with this? Its apparently "common sense" but I've never heard anyone describe Terran as needing the most micro. Tell that to Foxer whose Marines can counter Banelings, their hard counter. It doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree, as the very next sentence says "this is completely open to debate." Which you're doing. Which is why I chose not to talk about micro at all, except insofar as to say I won't be talking about it.
I think its a little problematic to say something is "common sense" and also that it is "open to debate". Something which is "common sense and generally accepted" isn't really very open to debate at all.
As far as FoxeR's marine micro, yeah the kid can micro, but that doesn't mean Terran requires micro. What FoxeR did was make an awful build good through micro. That's not Terran requiring micro, thats FoxeR requiring micro to make his build work.
Also, if Kyrix makes infestors that build sucks anyway ^^
|
On November 29 2010 14:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 14:20 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 14:18 Loser777 wrote:
If you're not walling off, placing the depot next to the mineral line is the most efficient use of resources, as SCVs can return to mining immediately after --there's a reason for that, it's not "because they can". Try as they might, Protoss can't place their Pylon in the middle of their mineral line, although that would be just as resource efficient. Yes they can, ![[image loading]](http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4523/screenshot2010112821325.jpg)
Dat Pylon.
gg good sir.
But yeah, I agree pretty wholeheartedly with the OP. It doesnt mean terran is op, just more versatile, which can make terran the best race for someone who is reallly good, and knows how to use the versatility to his advantage.
|
Each race requires different amounts of micro depending on what you're doing. I believe each race has its moments where good micro is required, so saying one race is more micro intensive would be false.
As for the OP's article, I also agree. OP did not even touch on the things like the Nuke. Which by itsself is a good ability. The ability to call down a giant missile on a select area. It sounds simple, but that itself opens up new and interesting ways that it can be utilized. I find that Zerg and Protoss lack this kind of thing.
But perhaps I speak too soon.
|
Using warp-in units to create a temporary wall was the only new cool trick I've seen from Protoss.
|
I wonder if the ability to chrono boost units(like a stim but weaker since it wouldnt do damage or have it do damage since 'warping' time on a living thing hurts it or w/e), or buildings IN production would add something to the protoss arsenal.
Early game unit chrono boosting wouldnt have too much effect, especially since you would have to give up either probe production / or upgrade speed. Mid / late game you could really use the extra energy to add some. Or make it so you dont target a unit but its a aoe spell, 'time goes faster in chronoboosted area' - adjust building and unit speed increase to balance.
Chrono boosting builds in production... just a few ideas that popped into my head while reading post
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
I think the OP is trying to say terran benefits most from fast hands. imagine some guy with hands fast enough to perfectly micro marines vs banelings so they each take 2 banes to hit?
|
I definitely agree, well written OP. I think part of the depth has to do with the campaign being for terran, hopefully in the next two expansions we will see the same depth and creativity for zerg and toss! Without wanting to bring balance into it at all, I love watching terrans because they definitely can be the most creative race if the player chooses.
|
I entirely agree with the OP.
Terran has a wide variety of cool abilities, spells, special units, which a pro of Flash's level will use to its fullest, that both Zerg and Protoss will cry in a year. Come to think of it, supply depots, CCs, planetary fortresses, stim, concussive shells, marauders, ghosts, raven's, banshees, thors etc. are all upgrades on what terran had in SC1. The only clear downgrade is vultures and stronger tanks.
Current terran will evolve into some beastly stuff pretty soon.
I do not see the same upgrades for other races that can be used as much. Obviously, Zerg units have some cool abilities as well, which will find a great use, but I don't see an upgrade in the diversity of play compared to SC1 much.
Now, Protoss interestingly seems lost a lot of funky and diverse plays they can offer. So clearly has the lowest skill ceiling. I hope a player like Afrotoss or Bisu shows up soon and proves me wrong, but there simply isn't the same amount of interesting and viable units that can offer such diverse playstyle as Terran does.
|
On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest.
Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread.
|
My first reaction was to agree with the OP but after thinking about I'm beginning to feel that it's really hard to prove that Terran units have more depth or are multi-dimensional relative to the other races. It's obvious Blizzard worked very hard to give each race an equal number of unique and interesting abilities and traits.
But at a certain point something appears to be very wrong and it's obvious when you watch the mirror matchups. TvT tends to produce many more interesting games than the other mirrors. Is it because I personally like watching Terran unit animations more than those of other races? Or could it have something to do with the diversity of Terran units and strategies with which the OP is concerned?
Speaking of diversity, there's a closed thread that polls what viewers' favorite MUs were: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168418
I wonder if strategy diversity is correlated at all with favorite MUs.
Well whatever it is, I hope someone at Blizzard finds out so that ZvZ and PvP become more of a pleasure to watch.
|
On November 29 2010 15:56 PurpleCrack wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On November 29 2010 15:52 mizU wrote:
A thor rush with scvs repairing is different from a rush with a queen for transfusion. Why? Queens are too slow for such a rush. Scvs can also heal planetary fortresses, or turrets. The difference is the versatility. And what about protoss? Queens on creep aren't much slower than thors, so no... Creep spread can occur quite quickly with nice tumor control and speed overlords with creep spread. You can transfuse spines and spores too you know... not to mention EVERY unit, you can't repair a marine/marauder/ghost. What about protoss?
Yeah, they are slower than thors off creep. And in what circumstance would you have creep all the way to an opponent's base to create a Thor rush-esque situation?
Are you ignoring protoss for the sake of argument?
|
I'd argue that Protoss is the most micro intensive race because Warcraft players have a easier time to transition to protoss and protoss units are the most expensive and thus require the most attention to.
|
On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread.
No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units.
|
On November 29 2010 17:02 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread. No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units.
warping in units to kill a drop ship, delay a push, harass, reinforce your army, ect... You're right no creativity in this game for protoss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
