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On November 29 2010 17:00 aztrorisk wrote:
I'd argue that Protoss is the most micro intensive race because Warcraft players have a easier time to transition to protoss and protoss units are the most expensive and thus require the most attention to.
Expense is relative. Protoss units are also more durable than their similar counter parts, meaning you can focus more on macro then macro. I'd be careful of saying one race is more micro intensive than another race.
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On November 29 2010 17:02 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread. No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units.
No matter how creative you get with your words, poetry is still just that, words.
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That being said, I'm pretty sure that Blizzard came up with all these cool ideas for Terran because they needed content for the single player campaing missions.
Let's wait and see what Heart of the Swarm will have in store.
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A very nice post but I have to disagree, I think this post is more about versatility and dynamics, IMO Zerg has the highest skill ceiling, simply because of the amounts of things that require attention and the fact that they have to scout constantly to know the counters needed. Terran is the most versatile for sure
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balance has been perfected yet but i wouldn't say any race is better than the other two
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On November 29 2010 17:09 Gegenschein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 17:02 Penetrates wrote:On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread. No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units. No matter how creative you get with your words, poetry is still just that, words.
What's your point? -_-
Warping units in itself is still being used the same way as it was in beta.
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On November 29 2010 17:24 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 17:09 Gegenschein wrote:On November 29 2010 17:02 Penetrates wrote:On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread. No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units. No matter how creative you get with your words, poetry is still just that, words. What's your point? -_-
I'm only saying poetry is not capable of being creative in a way not previously intended, because for the last 4000 years it's only consisted of words.
Pylons are actually better than poetry, because I'd say Blizzard didn't intend for them to be such effective ramp blockers against Zerg early game.
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Overlord creep can be used to save buildings if the Hatch or tumour dies.. maybe if the buildings repaired quicker on creep, much like scv's can repair a building. having an overlord spit creep ontop of a building? to help speed its recovery. As an overlord can b sniped easy as well as setting back supply, be interesting to see how that could be handled. Buildings already repair on creep, so why not just expand that idea a little. Don't play toss so i've no idea what existing things could be easily expanded without being overkill to add a little more depth.
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your title is misleading.. highest skill ceiling implies the race will take the most skill to master and play @ 100%
i really wouldn't call many of the examples you gave proof that terran has a higher skill ceiling... they are more like examples of creative play shown by terrans.
dropping a mule to repair a thor might be creative but it doesnt take much skill... one the tactic is out any one from bronze to diamond can pull it off
something that demonstrates high skill ceiling IMO would be pro marine spreading, target firing banleings with tanks, multi prong drops/attacks etc.
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Nevermind. Don't want to derail the thread.
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On November 29 2010 14:46 Musiq wrote:
Overlords with creep is an amazing idea, coming from a BW Terran player, the ability to proxy key buildings such as a Spire is a great deceptive tool.
Just chirping in. Are you sure you know what proxy means? It means to build stuff close to your opponent. You would (or at least should) never do that with a Spire. A Hatchery, perhaps.
Of course, you can hide a Spire elsewhere. But for the sake of Zergdom, please don't just build it in your opponent's natural.
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Blizzard's attitude on WoL is so obvious:' look ,people,this is a terran pack, get over it! we are doing as best as we can to keep the balance, make the game playable, and thats it! dont forget we still have 2 expansions that you have to buy them!!'.
terran as a race has too much options and strong units(MMM,thors,siege,viking's range and reaper are still freaking powerful but people dont do them anymore because there is too much effort rather than the old 'mass reaper and win') that i bet most terrans are busy to use them to grab their wins by 'easy' strategy rather than play the race really well.
imagine one day we see a timing triple drop by terran with reaper,hellion and M/M.
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On November 29 2010 18:10 BurningSera wrote:
Blizzard's attitude on WoL is so obvious:' look ,people,this is a terran pack, get over it! we are doing as best as we can to keep the balance, make the game playable, and thats it! dont forget we still have 2 expansions that you have to buy them!!'.
terran as a race has too much options and strong units(MMM,thors,siege,viking's range and reaper are still freaking powerful but people dont do them anymore because there is too much effort rather than the old 'mass reaper and win') that i bet most terrans are busy to use them to grab their wins by 'easy' strategy rather than play the race really well.
imagine one day we see a timing triple drop by terran with reaper,hellion and M/M.
as a terran player i wish this were true but unfortunately we don't do that because we would lose 
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So biased...
The most undiscovered race is protoss. They are the only race with underused units...
The highest skill ceiling is unarguably zerg actually....which you would be able to pick up on if you read any of the interviews from pros on WHY did they choose their race or what did they think of them before choosing (example idra/artosis/tlo from beta) and from those that switched.
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Sorry but most T's just spam tier 1 units and add a small number of higher tier units like medivac and viking as support whilst still spamming the same tier 1 units 30 minutes into the game.They then just stim and a click.
Hardly ground breakingly high skill ceiling when compared to brood war.
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Completely agree with the OP, nicely put - to all the people saying "highest skill ceiling means requires the most skill"...sorry but WRONG. This means, that a truly perfect player can get the most out of terran, NOT that playing terran by definition requires more skill. It says that improving your play pays off the most if you are terran.
From a protoss-perspective I agree 100%. Although i still pretty much suck, even I have moments in the game where I'm:
"ok, now I'm waiting for my first colossus since this is all I can do in midgame PvT....*looking at the clock*....*spamming some apm*...ok, drop incoming, now I got something to do again"
Notice that this is NOT a "omfg terran is OP QQ". This has nothing to do with one race being stronger or weaker. It's about strategic diversity, the ability to keep your opponent on his toes, to constantly come up with new builds and unit-compositions, the ability to always have cool stuff to do all the time.
Since I'm trying hard to avoid this looking like a QQ, let's look at the TvT: TvT is now said to be one of the most difficult match-ups for the players, so much going on, so much meta-game aspects to be considered...true! And this is because terran has so much possibilities all that need to be accounted for, and vice versa. Banshee harass? Maybe. Blue flame hellions? Could be. Drops? Who knows. Landed viking harass? Unlikely but not completely out of the question. Seeker missile into the worker-line? Nobody has ever done that, but maybe my opponent will be the first to try.
To make my point even more clear, I do NOT think that you should nerf/remove any of those possibilities...but on the contrary ADD more cool stuff to protoss and zerg. Zerg only has mutas for harassment...terribly predictable, every terran and their grandmothers know that zergs will probably muta-harass. Toss has...umm...nothing really for harassment, only in lategame PvT there "might" be a warpprism warping in amulet-templars. But 99% of the games will have ended (or at least been decided) before that.
Especially protoss needs something "similar" as reavers or useful arbiters (I wrote similar by indicating that I'm not just promoting the "bring unit xyz back from BW").
The core problem is, that many units/abilities of protoss and zerg do NOT "scale with skill". This means, once you got down how to build colossi, you've pretty much mastered the "colossus", no micro, no nothing you could do with this thingy. SC2 needs more stuff that is HARD to use, stuff that will get you killed if you don't know what you are doing. But stuff that will do terrible, terrible damage if you have the skill to pull it off. This is what made reavers so cool, only ppl with skill got the most out of it. Colossi now are dumb, there's no difference between the colossus-use of a progamer and...well....myself. The only difference is, that the progamer will probably have them earlier/more of them.
DREAMHACK SPOILER
+ Show Spoiler +Just think about the cloak-banshee harass WHILE harassing with blue-flame hellions from fenix vs tyler. This made me realize "holy shit, there are so many harassment-styles still unexplored". Mix this up with "MM-drop while hellion-harassing" or "MM-drop while banshee-harassing". Or...my most dreaded nightmare "double blue-flame hellion drop into both mineral lines". Protoss and zerg got nothing related to that, nothing cool and heavily skill-dependent that could give you a huge advantage.
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I respect your opinion and the work you put into your opening post but I disagree with most of it. The reason why I choose Protoss in the first place (which I did even before beta) was that I recognized the creativeness of the race and I still think that stands.
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On November 29 2010 17:06 JJEOS wrote:Just another disgusted nerf terran thread.
It pays to read the whole thread. The last paragraph is devoted to explaining that the problem isn't Terran having too much, but the other races having too little.
On November 29 2010 17:06 JJEOS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 17:02 Penetrates wrote:On November 29 2010 16:53 JJEOS wrote:On November 29 2010 15:35 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 29 2010 15:32 Melancholia wrote:
Building a depot in the same spot as that pylon would disrupt mining while it builds...building a pylon in the same spot as the depot in the first picture wouldn't disrupt mining at all. You're arguing semantics. The point is that Terrans' food-building has a fun ability that demands to be used in creative new ways that Blizzard did not intend, and the Protoss one doesn't. This has been reflected by Terran building placement changes from Beta into retail -- this is all I meant to suggest. Being able to warp in units at a pylon anywhere on the map isn't letting you get "creative" is this a joke? Just another disgusted nerf terran thread. No matter how creative you get with pylon placements, warping units is still just that, warping units. warping in units to kill a drop ship, delay a push, harass, reinforce your army, ect... You're right no creativity in this game for protoss.
Riddle me this: apart from the really cool example brought up by Penetrates, when was the last time you saw a Protoss use Warp-In in a way that made you go, "Holy shit, I had not thought of that and have never seen it before"? I'm gonna guess it's been a while. That's what I mean by not creative. It's been done. We've seen it all.*
Now going back to first page to address some older replies.
On November 29 2010 14:25 -{Cake}- wrote:
Well obviously you put in a lot of time/effort on this,
Traditionally, zerg is about quantity, toss is about quality, and terran is about versatility
Terran's options are part of racial identity. I think skill ceiling is the wrong phrase here, It doesn't really matter what race has the highest skill cap because even the top pros are probably not going to reach it
So what i got from this is that you are saying terran has more options than the other races, solid point, arguable a issue with the game, but could have been said in much less time/words
On November 29 2010 14:29 Madkipz wrote:This is basically the premise of your entire post. I agree, terran benefits the most out of fast hands and a clear brain. it does not make it a better race and blizzard does not need to change their approach to either factions. Zerg will always be obvious and pure with very few predictable tricks up their sleves its still fun to play.
It's interesting that Cake brings up the racial divide: quantity, quality, and versatility. That's true of the units, right? You get two Zerglings, you get a tough Zealot, or you get a ranged Marine. Quantity, quality, versatility. Except what happens when we bring the buildings into the discussion? Terran buildings support the theme of versatility 100%, but do Zerg ones support the theme of quantity? Sure, through Creep Tumors, but that's a very small example. Do Protoss buildings support the theme of quality?
If you want to carry the racial themes into racial mechanics... you have to make sure you do it for all races. And if you can't do that, then at least put them on even ground in versatility, because racially-appropriate or not it's at least dynamic and keeps the match-up fresh. Right now, Protoss and Zerg bases are just "there," they're not contributing to the game at all, really, in the way that Add-ons or all these spiffy Terran mechanics are.
*Apparently not, as Pen. demonstrated, but Warp-In's got a long way to go if it's gonna single-handedly challenge everything that Terrans have.
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On November 29 2010 17:13 Gegenschein wrote:
That being said, I'm pretty sure that Blizzard came up with all these cool ideas for Terran because they needed content for the single player campaing missions.
Let's wait and see what Heart of the Swarm will have in store.
I think you're right. Could you imagine if drop pods were still around?! They had so many cool ideas for Terran it was hard to keep the single player devs from ruining the multiplayer. Things will get cooler with each expansion, if we're lucky.
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On November 29 2010 18:30 sleepingdog wrote:Completely agree with the OP, nicely put - to all the people saying "highest skill ceiling means requires the most skill"...sorry but WRONG. This means, that a truly perfect player can get the most out of terran, NOT that playing terran by definition requires more skill. It says that improving your play pays off the most if you are terran. From a protoss-perspective I agree 100%. Although i still pretty much suck, even I have moments in the game where I'm: "ok, now I'm waiting for my first colossus since this is all I can do in midgame PvT....*looking at the clock*....*spamming some apm*...ok, drop incoming, now I got something to do again" Notice that this is NOT a "omfg terran is OP QQ". This has nothing to do with one race being stronger or weaker. It's about strategic diversity, the ability to keep your opponent on his toes, to constantly come up with new builds and unit-compositions, the ability to always have cool stuff to do all the time. Since I'm trying hard to avoid this looking like a QQ, let's look at the TvT: TvT is now said to be one of the most difficult match-ups for the players, so much going on, so much meta-game aspects to be considered...true! And this is because terran has so much possibilities all that need to be accounted for, and vice versa. Banshee harass? Maybe. Blue flame hellions? Could be. Drops? Who knows. Landed viking harass? Unlikely but not completely out of the question. Seeker missile into the worker-line? Nobody has ever done that, but maybe my opponent will be the first to try. To make my point even more clear, I do NOT think that you should nerf/remove any of those possibilities...but on the contrary ADD more cool stuff to protoss and zerg. Zerg only has mutas for harassment...terribly predictable, every terran and their grandmothers know that zergs will probably muta-harass. Toss has...umm...nothing really for harassment, only in lategame PvT there "might" be a warpprism warping in amulet-templars. But 99% of the games will have ended (or at least been decided) before that. Especially protoss needs something "similar" as reavers or useful arbiters (I wrote similar by indicating that I'm not just promoting the "bring unit xyz back from BW"). The core problem is, that many units/abilities of protoss and zerg do NOT "scale with skill". This means, once you got down how to build colossi, you've pretty much mastered the "colossus", no micro, no nothing you could do with this thingy. SC2 needs more stuff that is HARD to use, stuff that will get you killed if you don't know what you are doing. But stuff that will do terrible, terrible damage if you have the skill to pull it off. This is what made reavers so cool, only ppl with skill got the most out of it. Colossi now are dumb, there's no difference between the colossus-use of a progamer and...well....myself. The only difference is, that the progamer will probably have them earlier/more of them. DREAMHACK SPOILER + Show Spoiler +Just think about the cloak-banshee harass WHILE harassing with blue-flame hellions from fenix vs tyler. This made me realize "holy shit, there are so many harassment-styles still unexplored". Mix this up with "MM-drop while hellion-harassing" or "MM-drop while banshee-harassing". Or...my most dreaded nightmare "double blue-flame hellion drop into both mineral lines". Protoss and zerg got nothing related to that, nothing cool and heavily skill-dependent that could give you a huge advantage.
Oh man seeker missile to the mineral line. I thought we would be seeing a ton of that when I first saw that ability and now I realize I've never seen it because it's sooooooooooo slow. Thank god it is though. Last thing Terran needs is Shuttle Reaver in one frickin' unit (I play Terran in SC2 btw).
Actually, OP captures a lot of why I changed to Terran - it just seems more fun than Protoss and Zerg. It feels like the other races are comparatively... missing something. And I hope the expansions will flush them out and I think they will. And the discrepancy is not awful in the meantime.
I don't know if the topic name is the best. I think Terran has the most "strategic breadth" but not necessarily the highest skill ceiling. I think that highest skill ceiling belongs to the toughest race to max out your skills in, and I'm not sure that is Terran. Terran has more mechanics but the other races might have fewer tougher mechanics. Force field micro can be used in several ways, and can be difficult. It's hard for me anyway; it's the number one reason I switched from Protoss.
I think SCV repair is underused in Brood War, actually. Metal medics can be really awesome and we're seeing more of it in SC2 due in no small part to autorepair. Other races have some stuff they could do with extra actions, though, like gooping buildings, hallucinations to scout, denying expansions with overlord creep, scouting with changelings (lol Sen), and more. Terran have at least a bit more though, I feel.
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EPT
