• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:06
CEST 06:06
KST 13:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202547RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Update] ShieldBattery: 1v1 Fastest Support! Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 668 users

Terrans Have Highest Skill Ceiling - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 18 Next All
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
November 29 2010 12:33 GMT
#141
Everyone's missing the point about skill ceiling. He's not saying the skill ceiling in terms of handspeed and things like that. He's saying the ceiling in terms of tactics and strategies and the like. Those will keep being found out long after hand speed is perfected, and those have a higher ceiling for Terran.
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
November 29 2010 12:44 GMT
#142
I'm confident Zerg and Protoss will get a bit more "flair" like Terran in upcoming expansions.

I sincerely doubt that the expansions won't include extra units for multiplayer, or at least some new synergies/upgrades/mechanics.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
PepperoniPiZZa
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 12:50:56
November 29 2010 12:50 GMT
#143
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



User was warned for this post
Quote?
TrzystaDrzew
Profile Joined April 2010
Poland72 Posts
November 29 2010 12:50 GMT
#144

That's why MULEs, which were not created for the purpose of Repairing Thors (when have we seen/heard Blizzard talk about this?), can do so. Natural synergy of existing mechanics.


I refuse to agree with this. Do you really think they gave mule repair ability without idea of rep-drop function? I think you underestimate Blizz. What is more an argument "they did not tell about it" is kinda desperate move.

No offense.
SamuraiJJ
Profile Joined November 2010
Taiwan22 Posts
November 29 2010 13:07 GMT
#145
I totally agree

In Sc2

Terran is a formation race where you need to get your unit in a perfect line-up

Zerg feature is dynamic- fast tech - fast production

Protoss feature is strong but ex



Now they are putting dynamic factor into toss and esp Terran.

Take a good look at the 2 barrack marine rush all in with scv against Zerg. It is totally disgusting.

Now every races feature seem to have combined together.

The game seriously dry fast if the company still does not do anything about it
ss
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
November 29 2010 13:10 GMT
#146
There are some great things you're overlooking about the other two races.

For zerg, we have a small thing that I believe will be very important later on. Broodlings. They spawn when your buildings die. I just saw a game where a zerg lost to a terran who attacked his evolution chamber until it had 1 hp. If he had killed his own evolution chamber with a drone, the broodlings might have been enough to help hold off the attack. We've also seen broodlings on the offense. Proxy evolution chambers acting as time bombs off creep. Who knows how else they'll end up being used. And creep isn't as one-dimensional as you make it seem. Not only does it speed your units up, but it also allows you to build, and prevents your opponent from building. You could load up a queen in an overlord and drop on expansions all over the map and lay creep tumors, forcing terrans to use scans just to expand.

For protoss we have the warp prism. Everyone says it's underused, sure. But I don't mean for drops. Did you realize the warp prism also powers buildings? There just hasn't been enough creative usage of warp prisms powering buildings, whether that be for proxy buildings, cannon rushes, or what have you. It's got a lot of potential. And it only costs the price of 2 pylons, it's like having a pylon that can move around. Imagine loading a probe into a warp prism and proxying a stargate on an island somewhere. There's also the graviton beam which most people don't realize also works on your own units. It's like a pseudo-stasis.

There are still plenty of things left to explore for all of the races.
yrag89
Profile Joined July 2008
Malaysia315 Posts
November 29 2010 13:25 GMT
#147
If graviton beam can lift my immortals and move it up a cliff I would be happy. haha
secondly morrow is a korean pro who plays terran what the hell did you expect lol - charlie420247
Railxp
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Hong Kong1313 Posts
November 29 2010 13:25 GMT
#148
you're definition of skill ceiling is inadequate. You dont mention any objective method of how to measure it. You talk of "synergy" between units by talking about medivac and repair, but as many others have pointed out, you neglect to discuss synergy in other races. Putting APM aside is perfectly okay, but you mention nothing of battle decisions and positioning.

On top of that, if you're arguing that terran has more synergistic units that allow for more viable unit combinations, couldn't that be used also to counter the point you are making? Terrans have it easy because they can make whatever they want and it will fit well, whereas other races have to think very carefully in order to carve out a viable build. So the other races require more skill to play. I do not agree with the premise of this argument, but it seems to me that you can argue both sides from it.
~\(。◕‿‿◕。)/~,,,,,,,,>
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
November 29 2010 13:30 GMT
#149
Terran just have all the broken units, so using them well has the most impact. I mean look at the Marine: high dps, high speed, just godly unit all around. Weak only to aoe which can be micro'd to remove that weakness. They hand these god mode units on a silver platter to Terran. Zerglings just need to Right Click-Stop to reach full effectiveness because of the new pathing system and Zealots get kited all day. Very little potential.
The more you know, the less you understand.
pigscanfly
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore147 Posts
November 29 2010 13:40 GMT
#150
1. new supply depot mechanic = warp prism = overlord creep spread = new creative ways to place buildings

2. medivac/infantry and scv repairs= queen/anything = forcefield runaway and recharge your shields = ways to regenerate your units health. (i know the protoss case is a bit of a stretch, you can clearly see how the shield regen mechanic works in any basic micro)

3. scans = spreading creep tumour vision/changelings= hallucinate= ways to gain scouting information

4. planetary fortresses = moving spinecrawlers = protoss ability to warp in 5 cannons at a go without sacrificing more than one probe to build = easy way to defend expansions

It's disingenuous to claim that terran has so much more versatility than the other races. There are many things you haven't mentioned. i.e. warp in, which isn't as static as you make it out to be. Sure, you can say there are only so many ways to warp in units, but it gives protoss a flexibility on offence and defence that can be hard for the other races to match. It also means gateways can be placed anywhere to form any kind of wall in since once you get warp gate up (which is always pretty damn early) it doesn't matter where you've placed the gateways.

Looking at another way, Terran is not versatile enough since once you get to their unit production structures, you can pick off units one by one as they come out of the barracks. Bunkers aren't versatile because they can't move, unlike spine crawlers. They require infantry units in them, which require supply, which caps the amount of defensive structures you can build = cap on versatility. Terran structures burn down. They don't auto repair like zerg structures or regenerate shields like protoss buildings = lack of versatility, since you have to have a scv ready to repair them. Terran addons= as much a liability as versatility as they are low-hp, and once picked off you can't produce any high-tier units.

The races ARE different and are meant to be different. It's like comparing clouds and teddy bears.
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
November 29 2010 13:59 GMT
#151
On November 29 2010 15:56 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2010 15:55 Subversion wrote:
On November 29 2010 14:06 pure.Wasted wrote:
Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race


Any1 else disagree with this? Its apparently "common sense" but I've never heard anyone describe Terran as needing the most micro.


I don't understand that comment at all. Controlling a bio ball with medivacs is vastly easier than any other similar tiered composition. You're not alone.


It depends on what the OP means by micro, he could be using an innapropriate word again. As far as micro goes, every race gets a lot out of it. Terrans have to stim kite and often are using drop play in a micro heavy way. Thor timing pushes also require a bit of micro.

Protoss players must constantly micro positioning. Keep the zealots in front. Split up the templar, make sure you keep them close enough to insta-storm. Keep the obs in front and looking for cloaked ghosts. Feedback ghosts before you get into emp range. Keep colossi within attack range but outside of range of an easy kill for your opponent. When and where to blink stalkers. Immortal micro, dropping forcefields appropriately, moving sentries for propper guardian shield coverage, phoenix worker harass and siege tank lifting, warp prism drops, manually charging a group of marauders to ensure a surround to prevent them stim concussive shelling away.

Ok... so I play protoss. But I still think we can argue that both races are micro intensive. I would argue that protoss need to have good micro in order to get most of the value of many of their units out.

Similarly for zerg. I would almost ALMOST argue that terrans tend to be the "set it and forget it" race. But I know better.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
AidanS
Profile Joined September 2010
39 Posts
November 29 2010 14:04 GMT
#152
The OP is probably right, a quick glance at terran build orders at liquipedia will show they have by far the most available viable builds.

Someone responded that Zerg have quantity, toss have quality and terran have versitility. This may have been the goal but it isn't the reality.

Terran have the quality units and the versitility. Marines and marauders are the best early units by some distance once stim is up. Banshees are hundreds of times better than DTs. Vikings rule the air with marine support because of their siege range. BCs are probably the strongest single unit in the game with Yammato cannon if you are looking at a quality in a lone unit.

Even zerg don't have to follow the pattern if they don't want to. They have expensive, quality units available to them late game in the broodlord and ultra.

Protoss 4 warp gate is the opposite of what they are supposed to be too. It's a build that produces a high volume of crappy units at an early point in the game. 4warp gate just throws wave after wave of garbage units at you in a zerg like manner till you break. Certainly protoss have expensive units but the only quality ones are the collossus and HT.
Excluding the costs in teching to it (which are massive) the HT is kinda cheap as well for a caster which again doesn't follow the traditional race makeup.

The traditional race roles don't seem to exist in SC2 in any individual match.

Zerg can win with high cost units late game, protoss with high numbers of low quality ones early and terran can certainly win with single unit type compositions ignoring their races versitility altogether.
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 14:11:59
November 29 2010 14:09 GMT
#153
I've alway felt that Terran was the most "complete" race, and thank you for writing about it so clearly. I'm fairly certain that during the development of SC2 the bulk of the energy was spent polishing the Terran race and then "fitting" the other two races to it. So Terran has SO MUCH great stuff, so many options for everything, and so much to do. Zerg wins games because they can take the whole map and macro their way to victory, and Toss... well, Protoss sucks, let's be honest.

The repair points were really quite good also. Would anybody else like to see repair work on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear one? For example:

1 SCV repairing: 1 hp / sec
2 SCVs repairing: 1.9 hp/sec
3 SCVs repairing: 2.7 hp/sec
4 SCVs repairing: 3.4 hp/sec
5 SCVs repairing: 4.0 hp/sec

etc.

The numbers are arbitrary. I would just like to see each additional repairing SCV contribute slightly less as the numbers increase. I've always thought repair was imba.

That is not dead which can eternal lie...
dotamaster
Profile Joined October 2010
104 Posts
November 29 2010 14:12 GMT
#154
Terran has always rewarded creativity

Boxer (Emperor) - memorable Terran plays in SC:BW
Who shall win the Dota genre wars?
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
November 29 2010 14:16 GMT
#155
There are spots to place pylons in your mineral line at. Get your facts straight, altough I agree with your points.

One thing to remember tho, fun and versatile doesn't mean better.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
resilve
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom678 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 14:28:13
November 29 2010 14:24 GMT
#156
As a Terran who switched to Zerg I don't agree.

It comes down to your definition of 'skill ceiling'. Zerg is so much more intensive to make work, there is so much more inbuilt knowledge and 'feeling' involved in balancing army and economy, and covering all the harrassment options of terran.

To me, a zerg who knows exactly how and when to drone is the unteachable 'skill' that is the highest ceiling, knowing how and when to drop a spinecrawler or has the mechanics (and APM) to multi-task overlord placement, creep, injects and unit control.


If you play zerg for the macro - which I would guess most like to - you need so much experience and knowledge that cannot be taught per se. Therefore zerg is the race, for me, that the best player will do 'most well' with - i.e has the biggest skill ceiling.

Socke Fighting!!!!
iSiN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1075 Posts
November 29 2010 14:38 GMT
#157
This was a very well thought out article but I'm afraid I disagree. The skill cap isn't determined by the versatility of your race but by the mechanics required to play it. In a years time people will have terran figured out almost to a science. On the other hand even the best pros will miss a larva inject in a game while playing Zerg. Right now the highest skill cap is that of the zerg players. To quote IdrA Zerg will be the best race for good players when all the balancing is done. EAPM is more important to Zerg right now than any other race between the queen mechanics etc. The problem with terran right now is that there is so many cutesy plays that they can do which will all fade as people become more prepared for their cheese. Just like with 4 warpgate everyone has to grow up eventually and learn that the macro game is just a better way to play.
Grouty @HoN/PCKJ <--<333 || Jaedong Fan Cafe GFX
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
November 29 2010 14:45 GMT
#158
On November 29 2010 21:27 ShadowIord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2010 18:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Sorry but most T's just spam tier 1 units and add a small number of higher tier units like medivac and viking as support whilst still spamming the same tier 1 units 30 minutes into the game.They then just stim and a click.

Hardly ground breakingly high skill ceiling when compared to brood war.



So... Zerg do not spam lings/Blings and toss do not spam leglots/stalkers... isnt it?

To OP

"A Planetary Fortress is a powerful defensive tool… only thing is, combined with the Command Center’s ability to fly and its ability to carry SCVs, it can even be used offensively in the early game." line.

No PF cant fly an if i do not remember bad, neither PF or OC, can carry SCVs. and PF rush do not work vs a good player.


I think NettleS' point was that all the way into the late game T players are relying almost entirely on their Teir 1 units with some tier 3 support. I do not think this is the way blizzard intended the game to be played, but they still have a lot of work to do. Ideally, (and this is theory here) they would want terrans to have marines and marauders supporting thors and siege tanks and such units as additionaly firepower rather than mass bio ball being used to take on tier 3 units. This doesnt mean you wouldn't have a large number of marines/marauders, but rather than you would be forced to make some more tier 3 units rather than just pumping off of 8 raxes.

Yes protoss make zealots and zerg make ling/bling, but we dont spam them. We would lose big time if we did. Ideally, the same concept of low tier units losing effect over time should apply to terrans as well. But because of the OP's "Unit Synergy" you are allowed to keep making bio for the entire game up until a protoss gets templar AND colossi, or a zerg player can get fungal/bling.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
Larrie
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom46 Posts
November 29 2010 14:50 GMT
#159
"Common sense usually holds that Terrans are the most micro-intensive race "

Really? I mean are you REALLY going to try and pass this bull shit off?
gnutz
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany666 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 15:08:32
November 29 2010 15:06 GMT
#160
You are so friggin' damn right, it's not beautiful anymore.

Even that some Terran Units have more Quality than Protoss Units (at least in cost-effectiveness) makes the game never gonna be balanced perfectly before the next add-on.

Terran has so much potential: HSM, BCs, Medivac Energy, Bunker Placement Upgrade are not at all built/upgraded nowadays.
Say that Zergs or Protosses, who mostly need their upgrades to stay alive ... or even have some units where upgrading isn't worth it at all (paperplane speed lol)

Imo it should be: Terran has so much versatility, so they Need to be creative to win. But: they don't need that at all. MMM is powerful since day1 of the beta until now, The most Terrans don't even play mech, but i think it is way more powerful than MMM only.

What some people mention: I too think, that Zerg has the highest possible skill ceiling in terms of mechanics. But that is not the point of the OP.
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 18 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 54m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft472
Livibee 123
Ketroc 65
StarCraft: Brood War
Light 3351
Leta 593
ggaemo 215
Noble 79
Sharp 62
NaDa 43
Icarus 8
Britney 0
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1105
League of Legends
JimRising 775
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K953
Other Games
summit1g12424
hungrybox320
ViBE202
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1748
BasetradeTV33
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 61
• practicex 45
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki17
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra1489
• Stunt140
Other Games
• Shiphtur307
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
5h 54m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 6h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.